Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(  (Read 2667 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AmiBoyTopic starter

Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« on: July 04, 2019, 04:39:56 PM »
After pulling my towered A1200 out of my Mums loft I have been struggling to get it to work.

System Specs:

A1200 motherboard revision 1D.4 - original caps, dont believe timing fixes have been done.
3.1 Rom Chips & OS3.9 with BB2
Power Tower with original AT PSU
Apollo 060n @ 66MHz with 64MB ram (2x 32MB sticks)
Mediator v1 with upgraded MACH chips
Voodoo 3 3000
Soundcard
Network card
Buffered IDE interface with 52x CDRom & 10GB Hard drive plugged in

It started to go flaky a few years ago - with the Apollo 060 only seeing 1 of the ram sticks plugged into it. Couldnt figure out why and at the time (i tried changing the Ram sticks round and other Ram sticks of varying sizes - it wasnt the Ram itself).

I got frustrated in the end and I wasnt using the system at all at the time so just left it.

After moving house and recovering the system from my Mums where I had it stored while moving I recently started to try again with it.

If I strip my system down to just the motherboard & mediator to supply power, I do get to insert disk screen after 20-30 seconds (is this normal time?? just feels kinds long from what I remember)

This tells me the MB is OK.

If I plug the Apollo in tho, even after a few minutes waiting no insert disk screen comes up and after removing the Apollo card, I noticed that the 060 is very warm especially after only being turned on for a couple of minutes.

What could be the cause of the problems? Could it be the oscillator or voltage regulator?? Is my Apollo card broken :-( (I am hoping to heck it isnt & its a simple fix).

Any help greatly appreciated.
Escom A1200, Power Tower, OS3.9 & BB2, HD-Floppy drive, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000 16MB, Soundblaster 4.1, TV Tuner Card, 10/100MBit Ethernet card, Apollo 68060 66MHz with 64MB, 9.5Gig HD and 52xCDRom

Also one spare unworking bare A1200
 

Offline AmiBoyTopic starter

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2019, 06:24:43 PM »
After posting some pics on EAB a helpfull user has pointed out some corrosion on the card prob from a leak from the battery.

I hope its not permanent bad damage, my wallet wont like me trying to source another 060 card :-(

Who can I send the card off to for repairs?
Escom A1200, Power Tower, OS3.9 & BB2, HD-Floppy drive, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000 16MB, Soundblaster 4.1, TV Tuner Card, 10/100MBit Ethernet card, Apollo 68060 66MHz with 64MB, 9.5Gig HD and 52xCDRom

Also one spare unworking bare A1200
 

Offline Brian Hoskins

  • Electronics Engineer & Computer Programmer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2002
  • Posts: 200
  • Country: wales
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by Brian Hoskins
    • brianhoskins.uk
Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2019, 12:47:06 PM »
There are many people in the Amiga scene who provide repair services, ranging from the very basic up to professional level technician work.

I think you should post a high resolution photo of the full card, front and back, and a close-up of the damaged area.

Let the dog see the rabbit, as they say.
 

Offline paul1981

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 12:19:39 PM »
If I plug the Apollo in tho, even after a few minutes waiting no insert disk screen comes up and after removing the Apollo card, I noticed that the 060 is very warm especially after only being turned on for a couple of minutes.

What could be the cause of the problems? Could it be the oscillator or voltage regulator?? Is my Apollo card broken :-( (I am hoping to heck it isnt & its a simple fix).

Any help greatly appreciated.

All accelerator cards get hot. The king of heat is the 68040 however. It sounds to me like it's just the corrosion from the leaked battery, so send it off to someone who has an extremely good reputation with Apollo cards and these types of repair. And yes, you ought to think about cooling the CPU in the future. Even a case fan is better than nothing, but usually people tend to direct air onto the CPU  or fit a heat sink. I have an Apollo 1240 which has a fan directly on the CPU (that was factory).
 

Offline AmiBoyTopic starter

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2019, 02:11:07 PM »
I have got in touch with stachu over at Amibay with regards to looking at the card and hopefully being able to repair.

From what I have seen he is great with repairs (and upgrades) to accel cards.

Just need to arrange shipping over to him.

Thanks everyone.
Escom A1200, Power Tower, OS3.9 & BB2, HD-Floppy drive, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000 16MB, Soundblaster 4.1, TV Tuner Card, 10/100MBit Ethernet card, Apollo 68060 66MHz with 64MB, 9.5Gig HD and 52xCDRom

Also one spare unworking bare A1200
 

Offline scuzzb494

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2019, 07:01:31 PM »
You are missing the very technical bit of folded paper.

http://www.scuzzscink.com/amiga/cards/a210_card12.jpg

http://www.scuzzscink.com/amiga/cards/a209_card11.jpg

Mine is green also... Not a problem

http://www.scuzzscink.com/amiga/scuzzblog_july18_9/car_sbd_040718_97.jpg

Anyway sounds like a power issue or something conflicting with the card. Maybe even a short. I had the same problem till I first replaced the PSU and then I discovered a rogue pin on the motherboard touching metal. Happens. Works fine now and has for a very long time... and yes hot hot hot, but try the bit of paper to keep the power thingy level [all very technical ].


Offline Brian Hoskins

  • Electronics Engineer & Computer Programmer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2002
  • Posts: 200
  • Country: wales
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by Brian Hoskins
    • brianhoskins.uk
Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2019, 07:29:12 PM »
Stachu has an excellent reputation, I agree.

I am personally interested in this 'damage' you speak of, so if you have the time and don't mind posting a decent hi-res photo, I'd definitely like to take a look at it.  I can give you my opinion, for free, for whatever that will be worth.
 

Offline AmiBoyTopic starter

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2019, 07:49:53 PM »
Hi Brian,

Dont mind at all posting photos at all.

Have attached a picture to this post (albeit resized from orignal 7mb), but also posted some extra pics here on EAB:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=97989

From photos it identified some corrosion on the jumpers and a small chip from battery leakage.

Fingers crossed that card can be repaired.

Escom A1200, Power Tower, OS3.9 & BB2, HD-Floppy drive, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000 16MB, Soundblaster 4.1, TV Tuner Card, 10/100MBit Ethernet card, Apollo 68060 66MHz with 64MB, 9.5Gig HD and 52xCDRom

Also one spare unworking bare A1200
 

Offline Brian Hoskins

  • Electronics Engineer & Computer Programmer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2002
  • Posts: 200
  • Country: wales
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by Brian Hoskins
    • brianhoskins.uk
Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2019, 09:01:57 PM »
Thanks!

OK, so this battery damage does not look like a disaster.  I have seen (and successfully repaired) a lot worse.

If I were in your position the first thing I would do is try to remove the battery, clean the area and see what happens. 

REMOVING THE BATTERY
Ideally you would use professional equipment to remove the battery safely.  This would involve freeing the joints of solder and safely pulling the battery out.  I'm going to assume you don't have any professional equipment.  In that case you can do it with a basic soldering iron as follows:

Apply fresh solder to all joints.

Option [1]: Use solder braid to remove the solder from each joint.  This may be successful or it may not.
Option [2]:
With fresh solder applied, go to each side of the battery and heat the joint enough that the solder is molten and has had time to propagate the heat top-side.  5-10 seconds after solder is molten should do it.  When the heat has been applied, gently prise the battery up from the side that you have applied the iron.  It'll move a little but it won't come all the way.  Don't force it.  Instead, go to the other side and do the same thing.  Go back and forth like this until the battery is removed.

Some words of caution:
If you apply too much heat you can lift the pads and even damage the PCB.
If you don't apply enough heat, so that the top-side is still solid, you might damage the PCB when you try to release the battery.
If you apply too much force when removing the battery you will definitely cause damage.  If you have to apply a lot of force there is a reason, and you need to solve that rather than brute-force rip out the battery.

If any of this sounds daunting to you, it's best to refer to someone who knows how to solder.

Assuming you got the battery out, then it's on to the next stage:

CLEANING THE AREA

You will need the following:


Optional:
I tend to buy tins of IPL rather than the spray cans.  If you buy a tin then it's useful to keep the tin as your main store and use it to replenish a local dispenser.  I use these.  They are for flux dispensing, which I also use them for, but they also work well as IPL dispensers.


Now you just need to thoroughly clean the area.  Make sure you are strapped to Earth using an ESD wrist strap.  Then flood the local area with IPL and use the ESD brush to scrub it clean.  Use relatively small amounts of IPL, clean, and then repeat.

For the jumpers I would prefer to remove the jumpers themselves (note where they came from) and inspect the jumper pins.  If they're contaminated you might be able to clean them with IPL using the same technique, but if not then your fibre pen will come to the rescue - use the pen to brush the pins clean and then IPL afterwards to remove any residue or fibre hairs.

If the jumper pins were contaminated then the jumpers themselves were surely contaminated as well.  I wouldn't even bother trying to salvage them - just replace.  You can get them from old hard drives or if you don't have any get them from here.

NOTE:
I have read blog posts and forum threads where people have used white vinegar to neutralise the chemical reaction before cleaning the area.

I have never done this myself because I don't understand the chemistry and I refuse to soak my AMIGA motherboard (or accelerator) in vinegar unless I understand why I am doing it.  So I just use IPL to thoroughly clean.  But it's possible that the white vinegar technique is legit.  In that case, if you find a good explanation as to why, please share.


TEST
With the battery removed, the area fully cleaned and dried, you're ready to test.


FURTHER ADVICE?
If you decide to attempt this work and require further advice at any stage of this process feel free to reply here, PM me or ask for my email address.

GET PROFESSIONAL HELP

I have never used Stachu but I have seen the work he has done and based on that I am confident that he would be able to complete this work using professional equipment.  Your battery would be removed, the area would be cleaned and any contaminated components (which could not be cleaned) would be replaced.

Of course, this doesn't guarantee that your card would be working afterwards because maybe it has another fault.

That's really why I would remove the battery and clean the area myself first.  But only you can decide if that's within your capability or not.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 09:20:35 PM by Brian Hoskins »
 

Offline paul1981

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2019, 02:34:10 PM »
From looking at that photo AmiBoy, it looks as though a clean up and replacement of the jumpers could get the card working again, but there are some traces which might have been damaged through the leakage in and around that IC area. If you're sending the card off for repair anyway then obviously let them remove the battery themselves as they would have had plenty of practice with this. To be honest it doesn't look all too bad so I'm positive you'll have it up and running again with some TLC.
 

Offline paul1981

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2019, 02:37:59 PM »
@Brian Hoskins

I do use the vinegar/lemon juice, mostly on leaked battery terminals. When you apply it you can hear it sizzle as it neutralises. It may bubble slightly too I can't remember.
 

Offline Brian Hoskins

  • Electronics Engineer & Computer Programmer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2002
  • Posts: 200
  • Country: wales
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by Brian Hoskins
    • brianhoskins.uk
Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2019, 04:13:57 PM »
@Brian Hoskins

I do use the vinegar/lemon juice, mostly on leaked battery terminals. When you apply it you can hear it sizzle as it neutralises. It may bubble slightly too I can't remember.

Thanks for the response Paul.

Your account mirrors that of many others I've read on forums and blog posts.  But my problem with it is I don't understand any of the chemistry and I'm not going to apply vinegar or lemon juice or any other acidic liquid to my equipment unless I do fully understand its effect on the battery leakage as well as surrounding components and materials.  So far nobody has been able to give me a credible explanation that satisfies me in this regard, but I am very open to someone who can do so.

It all sounds plausible but I would want to understand it myself rather than copy it because someone else did it and said "it sizzled and bubbled"  ;D :o

Assuming it's a sound and recommended technique, what is the advantage to neutralising the leakage rather than simply cleaning it away?
If it's because you cannot hope to clean all of the leakage, and that the reaction might continue afterwards, then what is your process? Is it:

* Clean area as much as possible first
* Then apply lemon juice / vinegar to neutralise
* Wait some time
* Thoroughly clean again

Or is it:

* Neutralise first
* Wait some time
* Thoroughly clean last
 

Offline paul1981

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 12:20:52 PM »
If memory serves, you only really get the slight bubbling and sizzling with a more recent leak. I think the longer it's been spilt then the weaker the reaction. This makes sense as the alkaline substance gets weaker as it dissolves whatever it can, and the air will carry some of it away too (and spread it in the vacinity unfortunately). If you wash the board without first neutralising it then you risk spreading the leakage onto other areas of the board (rinsing for example).

So, it would be your second option, but I suppose if there's no sizzle then the alkaline leakage isn't so strong and you could wash it away thoroughly with a clear conscience. I like to use a toothbrush and plenty of running water. I live in a hard water area though... you can't win 'em all I suppose! IPA to then clean the area again and also remove the sulphites from the water. Then I'd probably rinse it again with my hard water even though I shouldn't. I don't take it too seriously to be honest, as long as I know it's clean and I have washed away the leakage and the board is clean then I'd be happy.  :)

Plenty of dry time too before power on due to moisture under IC's etc. We just have to be sensible and I don't think you can go too far wrong. Don't use a hair dryer or similar because that would induce static. Just be sensible about things and it'll be fine.
 

Offline Brian Hoskins

  • Electronics Engineer & Computer Programmer
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: May 2002
  • Posts: 200
  • Country: wales
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by Brian Hoskins
    • brianhoskins.uk
Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 09:36:44 PM »
I think you've persuaded me Paul, especially with respect to inadvertent spreading of the leakage by washing.

I have always washed thoroughly and this has probably protected me in the past.  But your post makes sense and it does sound more sensible to attempt to 'deactivate' the leakage first.

Spreading vinegar or lemon juice on the board just sounds a little too unscientific for my liking, especially as nobody has so far been able to justify it with actual chemistry.  I understand that acid neutralises alkali of course, but it seems to me that you would need to more precise about what acid you apply, and how much of it.

I guess if you wash thoroughly straight away afterward then there's nothing to lose by trying the vinegar and plenty to gain (the vinegar neutralises the leakage).

Don't use a hair dryer or similar because that would induce static.

I don't understand this.  Why do you think a hair dryer would induce static? The only thing I can think of is that use of a hair dryer would create dry air in the vicinity, and dry air holds a charge much better than humid air for obvious reasons.  But other than that I don't see how the hair dryer itself becomes a source of static.  It's just some heating elements with a fan to push the hot air out of the end.

I reckon your use of a toothbrush for cleaning would generate more static.  That's why I recommended an ESD brush.  Although, to be fair, I don't think that a toothbrush generates that much static.  I should measure that one of these days, actually.  I'll probably find I've been wasting money on proper ESD safe brushes when an old toothbrush would have done.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 09:40:31 PM by Brian Hoskins »
 

Offline paul1981

Re: Apollo 060 Hot - Is it broken?? :-(
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 12:44:55 PM »
I wouldn't use the toothbrush unless the area is very wet or there is actual running water (due to static concerns).
As for the hair dryer, I didn't mean the hair dryer itself but the object that you are pointing it at. A flow of air causes friction which can build static on the object.