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Author Topic: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators  (Read 48573 times)

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Offline UberFreak

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #149 from previous page: March 20, 2018, 12:46:16 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;837525
AROS emulates the Amiga API.


Nope, it implements it.
An API is just a set of functions, you don't emulate it, you implement it.
There can be multiple different implementations for the same API, but it has nothing to do with emulation.
 

guest11527

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #150 on: March 20, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;837544
Nope, it implements it.
An API is just a set of functions, you don't emulate it, you implement it.
There can be multiple different implementations for the same API, but it has nothing to do with emulation.

Well, this all depends on the false assumption that AmigaOs has something like a API. (-; In fact, it is a big pile of mess, where the "API" goes deep into "undocumented behaviour of the Os structures you are supposed to know but it is nowhere documented".

One way or another, this is a pretty mood discussion. No matter whether this is emulation or implementation. If AROS re-implements the design bugs of AmigaOs, is this good or bad?
 

Offline kolla

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #151 on: March 20, 2018, 02:36:48 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837545

One way or another, this is a pretty mood discussion.


:lol:

I suppose you meant "moot", but "mood" does fit perfectly too :laughing:
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Offline spaceman88

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #152 on: March 20, 2018, 03:50:07 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;837534
This has happened on every platform (from C64 to x64) I've coded on and why in Windows I now use "decimal" instead of floats or doubles...

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/618535/difference-between-decimal-float-and-double-in-net


I remember being accused of cheating on my computer programming assignment when my result did NOT end in .99999999999. I had used my TI99/4A instead of one the Commodore PET's in the computer lab. The TI would spit out even #'s like "10" instead of "9.999999999" that the PET's would show.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #153 on: March 21, 2018, 12:33:02 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837539
Hopefully not. Did you notice that the result is just plain wrong? I mean, not only "off" by one ulp, but wrong?

which, of course, doesn't solve the problem, but only masks it. You get other round-off errors, and in most cases, worse round-off errors because, internally, the system still works in binary.

What we have here is just a bug. Ok, that stuff happens, but I wonder where the thousands of test cases were?
Uh yeah, I was referring to the 6.499999...  In the calculator he had 1.1-1, so it's still floating point rounding error...and again why I use DECIMAL vs single/float/double in code.
In fact, I read somewhere that when a float would return X.99999...It should be considered a whole number (X+1).  That's why lots of code I've seen use Round(x,y) functions around float/double calculations specifying how many digits right of the decimal point they want to see...and again why I prefer to use DECIMAL data-types.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 12:41:44 PM by lou_dias »
 

guest11527

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #154 on: March 21, 2018, 01:04:04 PM »
Quote from: lou_dias;837564
Uh yeah, I was referring to the 6.499999...  In the calculator he had 1.1-1, so it's still floating point rounding error...and again why I use DECIMAL vs single/float/double in code.
For every number system, you'll find numbers you cannot represent exactly. That goes for binary as it does for decimal. The problem with decimal is that the average round-off error is larger than for binary. Or to be more precise, the binary system minimizes the round-off error of all (symmetric) number systems. So, in that sense, it is the better system.

You would, in typical implementations, convert binary to decimal, then find out the precision limit of the binary implementation in decimal numbers, and then round to the last valid decimal digit. For double precision numbers, you get a precision of 15 plus a bit valid digits, meaning that the last valid decimal digit is 15. This digit needs to be rounded away. As long as you do not make a round-trip from decimal back to binary, all is fine and you do not accumulate errors.

What we have here, however, is a platform that pretends to implement double precision, hence the rounding algorithm in the code (provided by the compiler, in this case) assumes (correctly, so far) that there are 15 valid decimal digits, inspects this digit, and rounds from this digit on. Unfortunately, the CPU only computes with 44 valid bits, instead of the 64 bits required for IEEE double, so it has less valid mantissa bits, thus less valid decimal digits, and thus, the rounding is off.

Hence, not even double precision here, leave alone full 80 bits precision. Too bad. If you want reliable numerics (in the sense of: conforming to what the system expects) you would be left with single precision. Unfortunately, I know exactly zero programs that use it, and not even SAS/C supports IEEE single precision as compiler.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #155 on: March 21, 2018, 01:31:21 PM »
Yes, there are two aspects here - there is the technical aspect, and that is all fun and interesting - but then there is the user experience. My examples above are super simple, they demonstrate that Jon "most user" Doe on a Vampire system will face strange formatting issues when he sets up a simple spreadsheet for his shopping list. On the other hand he can instead render a teapot with LightWave (which, if you had suggested doing that on Amiga one year ago now, you would be labeled insane by the Apollo Team following).
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Offline PPC

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2018, 04:02:15 PM »
Quote from: kolla;837566
Yes, there are two aspects here - there is the technical aspect, and that is all fun and interesting - but then there is the user experience. My examples above are super simple, they demonstrate that Jon "most user" Doe on a Vampire system will face strange formatting issues when he sets up a simple spreadsheet for his shopping list. On the other hand he can instead render a teapot with LightWave (which, if you had suggested doing that on Amiga one year ago now, you would be labeled insane by the Apollo Team following).


Yes Kolla we know...., now please can you quit this childish bashing ?
This is getting so tiresome you derailing/hijacking almost every vampire thread and all that ever comes out of you is pure negativity.
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Offline kolla

Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #157 on: March 21, 2018, 06:29:18 PM »
Quote from: PPC;837572
all that ever comes out of you is pure negativity.

Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason.

Btw, now that it is clear that Tuko is the person behind ApolloOS - is he part of the Apollo Team or is he not? He has labeled himself "Apollo Team" on EAB for example - how was it about ApolloOS _not_ being officially made, endorsed or supported by the team, but rather by some "rabid enthusiast"? I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.

As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team? If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this? The websites are totally silent, both Tuko's http://www.apollo-accelerators.com and Gunnar's apollo-core.com - the changelog (http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/ChangeLog) says nothing.

If there wasn't so much BS surrounding the entire Apollo Core project, there wouldn't be any reason to be stir the pond, but the way the team operates, it is very hard to not raise a few questions - questions that no-one seems willing to answer properly to settle any doubts.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:31:28 PM by kolla »
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Offline PPC

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #158 on: March 21, 2018, 07:09:57 PM »
Quote from: kolla;837577
Not pure, Just 99.999999999998603 % negative, for some strange reason .


Your rounding seems to be incorrect, you need a decent FPU. :lol:
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Offline Djole

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2018, 07:46:03 PM »
Every day we can see more and more happy Vampire users while the frustration (for the reason below) of the two unhappy pro FPU users keeps growing.

Just to clear up the reason of the frustration for the ones not informed, the "team" publicly made fun of Kolla for his silly "demands" and "suggestions" and now he is on a crusade to hurt them back.... but they still dont seem to care about him :) I guess he will just try harder...
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guest11527

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #160 on: March 21, 2018, 08:54:58 PM »
Quote from: kolla;837577
I see the kickstarts that comes with cores are pretty much OS3.9 kickstarts, including bits and pieces like the latest shell update from ThoR and more.
From what I know, the card comes with a 3.1 license, from Cloanto. That is, so far, legit. Cloanto owns the 3.1 kickstart ROM image, but that's as far as it goes. They don't hold a development license for 3.1. Hence, from that perspective, they can hardly distribute modified sources, as "who did the development in first place"? And under whose rights?

What is questionable is the 3.9 stuff - Cloanto doesn't own that - and anything beyond 3.1. There are also good reasons why I do not distribute the shell as stand-alone binary since I neither own that either, and I would kindly ask people to respect this. You can distribute the patch, and you can use the patch if you *own* a 3.9 CD. But that is as far as it goes. I do not have any allowance beyond distribution of the patch, and I only have that because I asked and was granted one.

Quote from: kolla;837577
As someone who owns two Vampire cards, I want to know the distribution rights and licenses for the software that I have download along with the core updates - is the content of the kickstart exclusively licensed to the Apollo Team?
Kolla, what's wrong with you? This is my text. How come you care about copyright lately?

Quote from: kolla;837577
If so, where is the statement from the copyright owners about this?
Probably all waiting for the outcome of the hearing in the US. Should be in March, i.e. around now. We'll see how that goes.
 

Offline Neuf

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #161 on: March 21, 2018, 10:07:23 PM »
AT Thomas Richter and Kolla

Haage & Partner still have the rights to OS3.9. Vasalia still has(had) legitimate copies of 3.9 available not so long ago.  To the best of  my knowledge however, they have not given permission to the Apollo Team to modify and distribute versions of 3.9. In fact in the only public statement they have made regarding this, they said they could not give permission because they could not contact all of the developers involved.

You are definitely right Kolla to question this.  This has been one reason why I have not purchased a vampire board.  There are also some questions regarding OS 4.1 as well but that's another story, for another thread.

We'll have to see the results of the Hyperion versus Cloanto court action as well as the resulting enforcement orders for clarity.
 

Offline Niding

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2018, 08:00:58 AM »
@Neuf

You dont have to use Coffin OS with your Vampire.

Some of us stick with the original AOS3.1, selfmodified with addons, like everyone has done since the 90s.
Some use other versions, lncluding purchased Vesalia 3.9's.

And some use AROS.

Basically you would run the Vampire like you did/do with your current legacy hardware, just faster.
 

guest11527

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2018, 09:16:13 AM »
Quote from: Niding;837600
@Neuf
You dont have to use Coffin OS with your Vampire.

The question is not "whether you have to", but "who is distributing software that infringes copyrights".
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2018, 10:06:49 AM »
Quote from: Neuf;837589
Vasalia still has(had) legitimate copies of 3.9 available not so long ago.

How does one recognise a legitimate copy of 3.9? With Hyperion and Cloanto licensing stuff they themselves previously claimed not to have any rights to (and well founded doubts about a lot of the claimed rights), it would be nice to know how to tell a legitimate copy from a greycopy.