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Author Topic: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators  (Read 45175 times)

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Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2018, 05:30:09 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;837054
no  I just want to point out that it is done as an interpretion how it works.  so as it is not a 1:1 replica that is improved.. I have a hard time to call it an "implementation"  more interpretion.


The 080 is an implementation of the 68k ISA, not of the 68040 or 060 or whatever. Just like the 060 is an implementation of the 68k ISA.

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ACTUALLY! I have a hard time why it is so bad that it is called "emulation" as it ISN'T a 1:1 copy..  most of us does accept emulated stuff anyway?


Why insist on using a technically incorrect term? You can call a "current source" a "voltage source" but it will be wrong. But on the positive side it shows everybody that is skilled in the art that you have no clue.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2018, 06:22:35 PM »
Quote from: Chucky;837056
BUT Motorola had the original information to work from.  not a interpretion of the manuals available.  they had the real thing.

Nonsense. They did the exact same thing: define the 68k ISA on paper and then build the chip. They didn't throw together a bunch of gates, looked what it did and then wrote the documentation...

And as already mentioned, we do have the "real thing": lots of Amigas with 68000, 020, 030, 040 and 060 to look at.

And btw, Motorola failed at implementing what they had written beforehand which is why there are the silicon errata documenting where they failed for which mask revision of the various 68k processors.

All operating systems, all compilers, all assemblers and all software are written abiding by the _documentation_ of the 68k ISA.


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the only difference was IF motorola replaced their ASIC and went FPGA with a 1:1 copy of their design.

Since Motorola didn't implement any of their 68k using a synthesisable HDL, impossible. And if they did, they would just "interpret" their own ASIC, to use your shrewed terminology.


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THEN I would accept "implementation"    as the 080.  not a single bit is a real copy of it.

Even if you refuse to accept that you are male, you won't be able to have babies. And nobody ever claimed the 080 was a "real copy" of anything. It is a real and very powerful implementation of the 68k ISA.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 06:28:57 PM by grond »
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2018, 10:56:28 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;837075
If I make a real CPU which emulates a 6502, it's emulation. It's not a real 6502.

A "real CPU that emulates a 6502" would be e.g. a i7 running a VIC20 emulator. If the "real CPU" executes 6502 code natively, then you  _implemented_ a 6502.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2018, 05:23:46 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;837081
If you make something capable of running 6502 programmes using TTL then it most certainly is not a 6502.

If you take the 6502 decap and use the die shots to make masks & run a chip fab in your kitchen then you can claim to have made a 6502. Anything else and it's just pretending to be a 6502, AKA emulating.


Aha. So if I built my 6502 as a silicon chip without looking at the 6502 die and by accident came up with the identical netlist as what you consider a 6502, what would it be? Emulation or the real thing? Seems to be some philosophical straw you are clutching at.

BTW, nobody claims the 68080 was a Motorola 68000, 68010, 68020, 68030, 68040 or 68060, remember? It isn't emulating any of them either, not even when applying the meaning you like to give that word. The 68080 implements the _68k ISA_. And it is implemented in an FPGA.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2018, 08:32:50 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;837102
You're the one that is trying to break my argument by using stupid philosophical arguments, I didn't come here to discuss
 Yes, you came here to make statements:  
Quote from: psxphill;837032
I know what an FPGA is & I know what emulation is.

Apollo is not a software emulator written for a general purpose computer, but that isn't all that "Emulation" is.

You can emulate a cpu with 74ls chips if you really wanted. http://www.baltissen.org/newhtm/ttl6502.htm

And you clearly want to remain ignorant about the subject you are commenting on. But I guess this is as close to admitting you were wrong and have no arguments left as your personality will ever allow you to get.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2018, 08:58:41 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;837102
Going back on topic. VHDL is a language, like any other programming language. It allows you to control the gates in an FPGA, like you can control the gates in a CPU. You can implement a 6502 in C running on an x86 or implement a 6520 in verilog running on an fpga. Both are emulating certain behaviours of a 6502.

BTW, this clearly demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about. VHDL is not a "language like any other programming language". It is a _hardware description_ language, not a _programming language_. It's like saying that you could write a true equivalence of Shakespeares body of work in Inuit because it is just another language like English is. Unfortunately you'll end up with lots of words to describe snow but none to describe a half of what Shakespeare described. And the differences between a hardware description language and a programming language are far bigger than that. One to start with is that there is no concept of parallelism in any of the programming languages I'm familiar with and certainly not in C. That is also why you need a high MHz CPU interpreting foreign CPU code of a 6502 or 68k while you only need an FPGA running at 80 MHz to exceed 68060 speed as demonstrated by the Apollo Core.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2018, 09:01:48 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;837104
But I guess you have your reasons.

My reason is that I have a PhD degree in microelectronics and as a scientist in this field like using correct terminology. And I don't like being taught about my art by somebody who doesn't know sh1t about it. If you want to discuss with the big boys, you'll have to make sure you are understood or shut up.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2018, 10:06:49 AM »
Quote from: Neuf;837589
Vasalia still has(had) legitimate copies of 3.9 available not so long ago.

How does one recognise a legitimate copy of 3.9? With Hyperion and Cloanto licensing stuff they themselves previously claimed not to have any rights to (and well founded doubts about a lot of the claimed rights), it would be nice to know how to tell a legitimate copy from a greycopy.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 11:55:22 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837607
By having the nice CD with the boingball logo on it, for example. The boingbag (what a stupid name) installer checks for something on the CD, I would go check there for the technicalities.

And since it is technically impossible to recreate such CDs from one original copy, this must be taken as proof that the copy is legitimate?
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2018, 11:57:14 AM »
Quote from: kolla;837605
I care about Apollo Team getting a free card while others get sent cease and desist letters if they put AmigaOS "distros" up for download

Now that you put it this way, the Apollo Team seems even cooler.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2018, 01:16:44 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837626
So, the "legallly correct way" to ensure that you own a 3.9 copy is: Have your receipt ready.

To whom would I show the receipt?
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2018, 03:28:55 PM »
Quote from: kolla;837624
Simple - Hyperion hires Tuko to work with ThoR and Olsen.

Unfortunately this is not possible since Hyperion cannot do any business due to their status as dissolved entity.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 04:12:53 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837646
I mean the part about "being honest"?

As in "honestly nobody cares"?
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2018, 04:49:08 PM »
Quote from: kolla;837653
Not being allowed to sell products is not the same as not being allowed to hire and do R&D
 Since when has "doing business" become to exclusively mean "sell products"?  
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Btw - how is Apollo Team doing in this regard? Registered entity that is selling properly tested and approved products for the end user (most users) market? Or are the Vampire cards sold as "developer boards" to "developers"?

As you know the Apollo Team isn't selling Vampire boards, it is developing a core that is used on Vampire boards.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2018, 06:41:23 AM »
Quote from: Neuf;837672
After I learned about Apollo OS I made inquiries last year and basically got the same result They simply won't be bothered looking for people they've lost contact with and as a result they won't transfer any rights.


So they don't care and neither allow nor prohibit copying of 3.9, at least not if no money is charged for the copy. That's what I would consider abandonware.
 

Offline grond

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Re: Gold 2.7 release for the Vampire accelerators
« Reply #29 from previous page: March 23, 2018, 12:36:57 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;837685
First of all, it is not up to you to decide what has been abandoned or not.

Neither is it up to you to decide. It is up to the rightsholder. That is what I was asking about above: whom should I show the receipt to?

It is entirely Haage's private business and none of anybody's matter whether other people's rights are infringed or not. Be concerned about your own rights but not about other people's.