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Author Topic: Amiga OS 3.2 released  (Read 41514 times)

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Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« on: June 02, 2021, 08:27:14 AM »
@kolla:

They are two different things: one is the menu equivalent of a checkbox, and the other is the menu equivalent of a radio button.  So it makes sense to distinguish them

No, it doesn't make much sense, noone ever struggled to distinguish these for more than 30 years - hopefully people can still READ!

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this is done not just by Windows but by OS4.

Unimpressive list when you say "most operating systems".

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There are plenty of bad interface designs in MacOS and no reason to blindly make the same mistakes.

Right, much better to blindly follow the mistakes done in Windows - the list is growing for every release.

And I ask again - is the max-window-size limitation still there in Intiution.library v47? You know, the limitation only found on Windows? Not even OS4 has this limitation...

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This is for Amigas not Macs.

You mean this is for Windows users who gets confused by the Amiga paradigm, and who rather see Amiga change into something more Windows-like? So you end up doing the same mistakes as just about every "linux desktop", instead of having a distinct UX for this platform, you end up with a sorry excuse for a "look-alike" that is neither one or the other. What's next - ctrl+c/v as shortcut for "copy" and "paste"?

You do know that Commodore's idea (93) to use checkmarks and bullets in the menu like that predates Windows 95 - so this is actually an original Amiga concept.

As for windows larger than screen I can only take it that you want to break every program out there that assumes this can happen. Like console and probably a lot of other programs. So while in you infinite wisdom you may think it should just be done, there are actually well thought out reasons why it would be a really bad idea. And in practice not that many people will even find it useful anyway.
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2021, 04:42:07 PM »

You do know that Commodore's idea (93) to use checkmarks and bullets in the menu like that predates Windows 95 - so this is actually an original Amiga concept.
Who said anything about Windows 95? Anyways OS 3.1 was released post 1993 without "radio buttons" in the menus.

(and personally I never saw the point of radio buttons, we have cycle menus (and cycle to menu) for that)

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As for windows larger than screen I can only take it that you want to break every program out there that assumes this can happen. Like console and probably a lot of other programs. So while in you infinite wisdom you may think it should just be done, there are actually well thought out reasons why it would be a really bad idea. And in practice not that many people will even find it useful anyway.

I suppose that is why it is working just fine in OS4?

Seriously - when I first complained about this, Thomas said it was due to the possibility to somehow "move" windows into a position where no gadgets would be available to move it back or resize - there was ZERO explaination to how this could possibly happen, but arguing against dogma is pointless. When pointing out that OS4 manages just fine and resize windows larger than screen without any trouble, the "clarification" was that OS4 has the option to resize windows from all directions - well, now OS3 has the same, and yet here we are. And now there is a new excuse "break every program out there" - excuse me, but wtf what? Why don't those programs break on OS4 then?

Well 3.1 was a rushed job in the dying days of Commodore. So they didn't have time to do much of anything. But read the devcon notes from 93 and you will see the idea clearly described. I mentioned win95 as that is the first windows version that has this, so commodore clearly was first.

As for windows larger than screen I too didn't understand that reason about moving into a position where gadget would be unreachable, and resizable from all edges doesn't make a difference as i see it. But the reason that programs might break is certainly true for console, which allocates a buffer based on the screen assuming this is the largest buffer it hast to be prepared for. This can obviously be changed , but if console assumes this, then other programs may expect it too. Programs written for os4 are probably expected to be prepared for this - i don't know - i just know console will fail.

Now we have introduced some legacy compatibility options in 3.2 and limiting window size to screen could certainly be made a new compatibility option so in general windows could be made larger. Then we would "only" have to change intuition to handle this. The point is however that it is not a small thing, and none of us see any real value in it. I understand you do, but I have never seen any user using this on windows, so why would they on the amiga. It would just be a waste of time implementing and testing it. I would much rather spend our time on something that brings more value to users.
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2021, 05:57:59 PM »
I do see your use case, but it seems to me to be a rather cumbersome solution, you would then have to move the window around. to see it

Dreaming out loud as we are - wouldn't it be better if the console had unlimited length lines and a horizontal scroll bar. It could be a mode you could turn on and off as your need arose
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2021, 07:22:05 AM »
How about fixing a _vertical_ scroll bar first, probably much more sought after.

Btw, going from "I can only take it that you want to break every program out there" to "I don't know - i just know console will fail" is quite a ... step.

I said dreaming about horizontal. A vertical scroller is already being experimented with

And your are quoting me wrong. I said "every program out there that assumes this can't happen". My position has never been as dramatic as you suggest, but I don't believe making windows larger than screens is something worth wasting time on for the next many years if at all.
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 05:58:02 PM »
Well we are well of aware of Kolla's less than encouraging ways of putting things, but he also has a lot of really interesting things to say, that despite the way they are said is useful to us. So Kolla please do continue. We have stocked up on popcorn for 2 years now.
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2021, 08:07:47 AM »
I have grown used to having outlines and shadows on my workbench icons, does at least 3.2 offer this?

Yes you set it in font prefs
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2021, 08:14:40 AM »
(oh, and there is bug or ...eh... feature challenges with "Prompt" - as you may tell from the screenshot, I use a multi-line prompt (which probably just works by pure coincident, and not by design), and the "bug" is that variable expansion in prompts only work on the first line. In the 3.2 FAQ, the word "prompt" is only mentioned once, and not at all in relation to the shell or C:Prompt, so whether this is known bug/feature or not, I cannot tell)

Thanks. I've entered it into our bug tracker - bug, feature or designed like that for reasons unknow to me - at least it should be examined
 

Offline boemann

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Re: Amiga OS 3.2 released
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 04:28:51 PM »
Got my copy of 3.2 last week and have been playing with it in FS-UAE before deploying to one of my real systems. Enjoying it overall--there are some good QOL improvements. The inclusion of datatypes for modern image formats is important. I appreciate the return of comprehensive documentation and the integration into the system is very nicely done. The default DefIcons config and prefs tool is much easier to understand than the one shipped with 3.5/3.9--I feel much more comfortable editing this one without worrying that I'll break something. Thanks to the dev team--I hope we'll see more updates.

That being said, a few issues/notes: ;)
1. Gadget corruption in Pointer and Palette prefs. The FAQ says this is due to a CGX incompatibility, but I'm running on NTSC (with P96/Picasso96API.library 2.363 installed). See attached images.
2. Oops - GUI layout problems in RAWBInfo when NOWORDWRAP is enabled. See screenshot.
3. The advertised TOBACK_QUALIFIER feature of ClickToFront does not actually appear to be implemented. It's not included in the icon tooltypes nor mentioned in the help docs. Am I missing something?
4. I don't care for the thin, blinking cursor in texteditor.gadget. Would prefer to match the GadTools/CON: look as much as possible. Is this configurable through ENV variables?
5. Likewise, I'd also like to configure chooser.gadget to resemble a plain GadTools cycle gadget.
6. The Appearance Settings window in IControl prefs should probably have a Use or OK button instead of a close gadget.
7. Most windows now open directly under the mouse pointer. Is this configurable? I'd prefer to have them either centered on screen or in the upper left (below the titlebar) as in 3.1.
8. The Workbench prefs window is now too tall for a non-laced screen and autoscrolls. I realize screen real estate is an issue given all the window content, but could it be shortened by using 2 columns for the Icons group instead of 1?
9. Similarly, Palette prefs now uses an autoscrolling screen instead of a Show Sample button/window. This makes it harder to see changes in real-time. Could the choice of autoscrolling or button be made in a tooltype? And the Sample window resizable/scrollable so as to not block the controls?
10. Also in Palette, the presets Magic and Thin Menuborders appear to be identical: changing Menu Bright Edges between white and black seems to have no effect. Changing between other colors does have an effect.
11. Perhaps the new Auto-arrange Icons option should not snapshot everything after it executes? All the other icon arrangement options are temporary unless the user chooses to snapshot so it feels like this one should operate similarly. Or retitle it so it's clear from the outset that it will be performing a snapshot, e.g., "Arrange and Snapshot Icons".

Thanks again! Looking forward to exploring this new release further.


I'm glad you deficons. I tried my best to create some good categories and a prefs editor that would not scare everyone away. The hope is however to replace deficons with a new simpler system sometime in the future.

3) feature should work. Documentation is lacking - we will fix
4) afraid not as block cursor is reserved for insert mode (though that is not yet implemented)
6) agree
7) I'm not a fan either is all I can say

The rest is noted