The future of Amiga.org ...?

[Wayne]

Good morning guys,

A few years ago on April Fool's Day, I played a prank where I "sold Amiga.org to Spanish lesbians".  

It was pretty funny back then, and everyone was both laughing and furious at me for weeks. Some even abandoned the site over it, but then again, there are always rats looking to jump ship.

For the last few years, it's been a running joke amongst friends that I should truly sell the site to real spanish lesbians and move on. As always, there's a bit of truth in every joke.

The simple fact is that while I started out being one of the devout fanboys when the community was 200,000 strong, and I loved everything Amiga, I haven't felt that way in many years. In truth, I don't feel that way about ANY computer platform any more.

The result is that running the site itself -- while rewarding -- has been an increasing struggle for me, since I don't use or follow all the drama as closely as I once did. Kind of like a soap opera. I grew up addicted, but over the years too many actors and storylines have changed to keep my interest.

So what does this mean?

Effectively, it means that I'm beginning an active search for someone both able, and interested in buying, then taking over the site.

It could be one person, or a group of partners, but after 15 years of solid dedication, in order to "buy me out", the cost is $10,000 USD.

I know most of the remaining fanboys will start screaming about how I don't have the right to sell the site, or to even expect money for my blood, sweat, and tears, but that 10k is 1/2 of what it's worth, and 1/2 of what I was asking just 5 years ago. It's also one hell of a low price for 15 YEARS of my life.

I just need to pay off some debt and move forward in my life. I can't do that if I spend most of my free time here administering the site and worrying about hackers and/or spammers.

10,000 USD. Less than some of you spend on Amiga hardware in a year, can buy you the one, single, unique thing still active and worth something in the Amiga universe.

If no one reads this, and I'm sure no one will, I'm considering putting the site up on eBay on a "until it sells" basis with a reserve on October 1st.

Lock, stock, and barrel.

During which the site would still be left running and all, and I'll continue to do anything I can to make it better for everyone. I'm just tired of feeling like I need a vacation from what should be a hobby endeavor.

It's been an honor serving this community and all my friends in it for these 15 years. A time I'll never forget, but it's time for me to move forward.

[Wayne]

Sebastian,

I'm terribly sorry to hear about your health issues, but truly appreciate your message of support.

It's not that I'm turning off the light and walking away from the site.  I just think there are a few people in this community who could do a far better job than I do at supporting the site and community itself.  

15 years ago when I had an intern job and 6 hours a day to play on the site, I kept up with everything.  Now I barely have time to keep up with my own life.

Wayne

[Wayne]

Number 3 gets my vote.

Helpful as always I see  :roflmao:

[Wayne]

buh... I live here... *violin*

You're more than welcome to stay.  We have a special room reserved just for you.  The rent however might fluctuate with the new landlord..

Wayne

[Wayne]

Since everyone is so well versed at reading between the lines, let me be very specific about a few points...

1) I am *not* talking about closing down Amiga.org any time in the foreseeable future.  The site should continue on without interruption.

2) I just don't feel that I'm the best equipped person to run it to help the community any more.

3) I'm looking for someone who's willing to step up, invest a little bit (about the price of 3 decked out toaster systems) to be able to step in and make this a better place and keep the community going the way this site deserves.

4) I have no intention of giving away 15 years worth of work for free.  Whether or not you agree with that statement is irrelevant, but I guarantee each of you that if you REALLY thought about it honestly, NONE of you would invest 15 years into ANY project to give it away for free.

5) The mission of this site is, and always has been to promote the community first, and the computer a distant second.  As such, YOU, the community make up what happens here and what direction we go in as a site.  

5.b) That being said, the operation, ownership of the site and it's related copyrights and content is, and always has been owned by me, or by way of prior commitment, the North Alabama Society of Amiga Users (NASAU) which disbanded circa 2000.

6) I'm simply ready for a new part of my life to begin, and hope each of you understand what I'm trying to say, and to accomplish with this post.  It's more than just money, more than selling the site.  It's about me trying to figure out what makes me happy and move in that direction.

Unfortunately -- due to several factors including my longstanding history with both AI and Genesi -- I'm just at a point where I'm finding it difficult to fein interest any more, and that's not what this site, or this community needs.

Wayne

[Wayne]

Chris,

Your attitude, while understandable (and unfortunately all too common), isn't very helpful to this situation.  Yes, if I closed the site today, people would simply wander off to other sites.  Yes, there are people who -- right now -- are already planning to steal all the content off of this site for their own purposes, but I think you truly miss the point.

There may be other sites, but there will never be another Amiga.org.

Wayne

[Wayne]

Some just-because stats.  Just because someone was interested;

[Wayne]

What if nobody is interested and the ebay auction doesn't cough up more than say a couple of thousand?

-edit-
Maybe the Mozilla bounty can be put to something useful now =).

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to extort money from anyone here.  I'm just stating my case and seeing if there's anyone interested.  It would be sad if there's not, as that would indicate to me that I've wasted a whole lot of time trying to support a community that doesn't believe it's worth it, but no one can predict what might happen in the foreseeable future.

My hope is to find someone who's interested in continuing what is, not turning it into something else, but the simple fact is that someone who actually cares about the Amiga would be a better candidate than I to continue supporting the community.   I care about the people here, and the friendships, but not the computer (past or future).  

My time of caring about computers in general is long gone.  I went Mac 3+ years ago and haven't even touched a Windows machine since then (when I can help it).  

Between Amiga Inc getting nowhere, and Genesi screwing me over, I've just had enough.

Now, if you want me to take the site and turn it into a social networking site with the Amiga as a sub-culture, I could do that, but again, where's the payoff in all that effort for me?  When I put up vBulletin, I was actually revitalized for a while and once again felt like part of things, but... Apparently it's a case of running out of new modules and things to try to keep my mind occupied and interested.

In short, I find myself becoming sorely disinterested in the virtual world of the Web and wanting to get back to the real world that is all around me.

In DIRECT answer to your question, if no one is interested, and a standing "until it sells" auction never meets the reserve, the site WOULD **** EVENTUALLY **** close down some day.  NOT today, not tomorrow, next week, or next month, but no one can run a single Web site forever and not lose some measure of interest.

Wayne

[Wayne]

*Somebody* has to maintain this site. Can't stress enough how important we have a Stateside based Amiga site and forums. I've met LOTS of great folks here (in person and online) where deals and get-togethers have actually gone through. News just keeps getting sadder and sadder these days  :-(

Again, I've said this clearly, but Amiga.org isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future.  I just think it needs someone in the captain's chair who actually appreciates the Amiga for what it is.

I'm surprised Davey, or any of the other exodus sites haven't chimed in.

Wayne

[Wayne]

@ Wayne

Why not turn the site over to the current moderators for a while? It's been said before Wayne that you should take a break from here so here's the perfect oppotunity for you to do so - you even mention the fact that you feel like you need a vacation from here in your first post in the thread.

Neat idea, but in practice, it's a no-go.  Most of the current friends operating as moderators rarely even visit the site any more, and several -- like me -- don't even use Amigas any longer.

This is just a test to see if anyone really thinks this site is worth continuing or not.  Like I said, yes, there are other sites, but there's only one Amiga.org, and it's up to everyone reading this thread to figure out what is, and isn't important.  

As for me, a "vacation" isn't the answer.  The site's "pretty much run itself" for far too long and needs someone who's interested in making the site a better place and more worthy of supporting the community than I simply have to give it any more.

Wayne

[Wayne]

@X-ray,

Again, not going to sit here and defend why I -- or anyone -- thinks this site is, or isn't worth what I'm asking.  Frankly, neither would you if someone walked into your house and belittled your work as I feel you have just done mine.

In my mind (and thankfully that of others in this community) this site has tangible value.  Hell, it might be one of the only actual Amiga related things in the world that does.  Value intrinsic in YEARS worth of posts, in thousands of gathered images, in hundreds of articles, and in thousands of comments to said same.  

Absolutely, positively granted.  A lot of those comments, articles, etc were in fact contributed by "you", meaning the community, but the fact that *I* was here at all to collect all the little nibbly bits and make them all accessible is more than almost any of you have done over the years.

Fred Fish didn't write software.  He collected software, and you paid him for it.  The Amiga Web Directory didn't invent links, Kevin Hisel simply gathered them and you all thought he was an Amiga God.  Miriam-Webster didn't make up words, they just collected them and we all buy their dictionaries.  I could go on with example after example but I think you get the point.

I'm not trying to "sell the community".  I'm trying to quietly walk away with a little dignity from a community, and a site (which you are correct, go hand in hand) that frankly I spent 15 years of my life helping to build.

What I don't get, is the need of some to step into a thread like this with negative -- or better stated, discouraging -- comments at all?  It's not like it was a request for discussion.   I've stated my case, clarified my intentions, and stated my asking price for everything that I've worked on for 15 years.  I'm tired, and yes.  "Disenchanted".  

Then you, and a couple of people come along and just feel some unexplainable need to pull your wanker out to tell me how you feel that I'm somehow stupid for even making the offer?

Yes.  This site is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.  Nothing more, nothing less (thank you Captain Obvious  :lol: ).  

As Amiga collectibles go however, I feel compelled to state that Amiga.org is, in fact, more unique than the Walker prototype, the 3000+ or even a mint copy of Detective Stories (Superman #1).   There will never be another AMIGA.ORG.

That being said, I am hoping that several intrepid community members (hopefully friends) will band together and form a consortium of sorts.  Sell shares, elect your own webmaster, do whatever and run the site the way that "you" (the community again) want to run it.  

I already have an offer on the table, but it's what I will generously call "a little low" and contingent on a 90 day window.  Before giving into such an offer, I'd be remiss if I didn't offer it to the very people that help to make it what it is today.

Maybe there isn't anyone in the community (or even a small group of people) who really cares whether or not this site continues.  As others have stated, there are always other web sites, and I'm sure at least one of you have bought a domain and started a bot to rape the content from here already.

Looking at the whole ordeal from my perspective, it would only take the 800 active members each tossing in $13 to a neutral paypal account to solve the whole damned boggle.  200 people at $50.  100 at $100, etcetera.  

I'm not asking anyone here to donate anything btw.  I'm only making a point of how little $10k is in the grand scheme of things.

Who knows?

All I can say is it's messages like yours which continue to add to my deepening depression and only serve to reinforce that I've wasted 15 years of my life dedicated to this site and to trying to support everyone in the first place.

Despite all this ranting, I'm not angry or anything.  I'm really not.  I started this thread to just openly tell people how I feel about the situation with zero intention of changing things at any point in the foreseeable future.  Really.  I'm burned out on computers in general.  

If I had my way right now, I'd almost rather computers didn't exist.  I really have no use for any of them, and the longer this thread continues, the more a few such as yourself convince me that -- current economics aside -- the thrill is gone and it's time to move on.

Who knows?  Perhaps if AI had done something.  Perhaps if Bill Buck hadn't fscked me and others over.   Perhaps if the AI had pushed to go the Mac route like they did with OS X in 1999?  perhaps.. perhaps... perhaps....   Too many variables to care any more.

So far, between just two people in this thread, if someone would only take the initiative to work it all out, you're already 15% of the way there.

Disenchanted indeed...

Wayne

[Wayne]

I think there are sometimes more important things than money.

You're entitled to that thought, and to your opinion as it were, but as I said, to me, the Amiga soap opera simply isn't one of them.  I do see where you're trying to slip in the fanboy mantra of "you should just give it away for free because the Amiga is more important than you".  

I'm clearly baffled as to how you think I would in ANY way be "profiting" from such a sale considering everything I've done for both the site, and the community over the years.  How much is 15 years of your life and constant dedication worth to you?  

Besides, even if I were making obscene profits as you seem to want to suggest (which I'm not), the question remains...  So what?

The problem, hence the hole in your subtle suggestion is that -- as I've tried to explain -- I'm burnt out on "the greater good".  I'm no longer really interested in computers, but in the same breath, this site is indeed like my child.  As such, I want to find someone who's willing -- and able -- to step up, buy the site, and keep it going.  

Much like the Excalibur test, the person or persons who are willing to step up and invest in it will be someone I'm assured won't easily take the site and run it into the ground.

Running a site like this takes dedication, and frankly, 15 years worth of dealing with all the constant red vs blue, squabbling, bitching, and backstabbing betwixt site members (and even site members going out of their way to sabotage AI)  is just more than I care to deal with any more.

Indeed, I'm not interested in "the greater good" and/or giving away 15 years worth of blood, sweat, and tears.  You wouldn't either if the roles were reversed, I guarantee ANY of you would feel the same way I do.

The question remains.  If the site is worth something to the community, someone will step up.  If not, then there's no point in me spending any more of my life trying to keep it going day to day.  I hate that fact, but there it is.

Wayne

[Wayne]

I think a bit less melodrama is called for.

Everybody seems so quick to assume the site is just going to be taken offline and disappear. That it isn't what Wayne said:

Thanks Karlos,

Re-reading the thread, I've emphasized exactly that at least 4 separate times, but this *is* the Amiga community where apparently no one can be taken at their word but what's between the lines.

The site isn't going anywhere.

What no longer exists is any interest on my part to do more than let it run on Auto-pilot.  A feeling that I've had for a long while, but is resurfacing after the upgrade to vB has been completed.  

In that, I'm sure I'm no different than Davey (AW), or John (Moo), or Targhan (MZ), or any other Amiga webmaster, and that's not what this community deserves.

Where I'm getting upset is the rather rude suggestions that the site has no tangible value, to which I vehemently disagree.  I'm also upset because as much as people suggest this place means to them, no one seems to be interested in stepping up to the plate to prove it.   I certainly understand that on a global scale, this is the wrong time for it, but still...

Being told that a life's work is worthless is... disenchanting to say the least.

Wayne

[Wayne]

The problem is this: Everybody - except, as usual, Wayne - knows that this site isn't going to sell for 10,000 USD. It would be insane to pay that much, period.

He's not going to get what he's asking for - the question is how he's going to react. Having witnessed Wayne's reactions to similar problems in the past, I have my doubts if amiga.org will survive this.

Thanks for your vote of confidence, and the not so subtle insults.  Very helpful. I wondered when the trolls would show up.  My response wouldn't be nearly as helpful, albeit much shorter.

99% of the content of this site are forum postings. These postings are owned by their authors, not by Wayne - hence he can't sell them. He can only sell the domain and the existing infrastructure.

Absolutely, unequivocably wrong.  Period.  Not even a point of discussion.  the content posted on ANY site becomes the inherited property of the site, and it's covered in the TOS which has been posted in various versions since 2001.  Same with Moobunny, same with AW, same with MZ, same with *any* site.

When Microsoft bought out yahoo, did all the links go away?  When Google bought out YouTube, did all the videos disappear?  No.  The end-user still has the right to delete their videos (or in our case, each of your posts/contributions) but in absolute fact, the content is part of the site and inseparable as such.

Edit: if you want to consider it "selling the domain and getting free data" then that's fine, but whomever purchases the domain gets the whole ball of wax, not just the domain name.  Whether or not that makes you uneasy or not is completely irrelevant.

Without you, who spent quite some time to migrate the content from the old CMS to the new one, all that Wayne could sell would be a domain and an empty forum. You don't seem to care, but the timing of events...

1. Wayne complaining that he needs to upgrade the CMS, because "running a.org wouldn't be fun anymore if we don't"
2. Karlos investing lots of hours to migrate the content
3. Wayne trying to sell the whole shebang for an insane amount of money because "running a.org is no fun anymore"

makes me feel uneasy.

You're right about one thing.  We are *all* indebted to Karlos for saving the data from the last x years.  Absolutely.

1) Never complained about "it wouldn't be fun any more".  The upgrade was mandated by the hosting provider's abandonment of PHP 4.  The copy of Xoops that we had was damned near 10 years old, having been used to satisfy the diehard AmigaOS users.  Period.

2) No Argument, and you should thank your sweet bippy that Karlos was here to save the data to begin with.  I could have just as easily done a full, clean reboot without any data.

3) Stop making shit up buckhead.  

- I no longer have any personal interest in anything Amiga
- I want out, and want to make sure that whomever takes over is serious about it
- I have a 15 year vested interest in this site, it's content, and it's copyrights.

For *that* purpose, and *that* purpose alone, there is a price tag associated with it.

The fact that you crawled out from under your rock long enough to come in here and absently attack me for it speaks volumes for what's wrong with this community as a whole, though I do like to believe that 99% of the community is better than this.

Any further insults or attacks will be met in kind.

[Wayne]

Are you trying to say Amiga.org is worth 10,000 USD because you think English Amiga Board, Amigans.net, and Amigaworld.net are not worth anything in the Amiga universe?  Maybe you did not mean it that way, can you clarify?

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind, but thanks for twisting my words.

None of the mentioned domain names are AMIGA.ORG, which is what I said.   None of them has been around 15 years, and none of them have anywhere near the amount of historical data this site does.

If the owners of those sites choose to take the same path I have, then more power to them and I wish them luck.

Wayne