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Author Topic: What is so great about the SID chip?  (Read 5137 times)

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Offline yakumo9275

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 01:14:39 PM »
Quote from: Nostalgic_Amigan;558989
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI4p-jcVg2E&feature=related
 
I always loved this song and for me it demonstrates what the sid chip is all about.


heres a +10 the LN1+2 music just kick ass! :)
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Offline Arkhan

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 02:48:19 PM »
Quote from: BluPhenix316;558971
even bands built around it. Check out Crystal Castles.


Or don't.

I once messaged that guy in the band and he had NFI what I was talking about when I mentioned SID/C64.  That instantly made what they were doing seem pretty meh and fake as far as I care.
--------------------------------
Quote from: Amiga_Nut

Don't think the original Mac had sound, and ST had the same inferior Yamaha chip as 8 bit Sinclair/Amstrad units. NES had rubbish sound, SNES sounded a bit General MIDI extra cheese on the side style too. So is there any wonder compared to the competition that of all the mass market machines people generally only remember the two from Commodore!


Eh.  The SID is great for music, but really sucks for games most of the time.  Look at how many games either have SFX OR music.  (Armalyte, R-Type).  

So many games have decent music, but then the blaring noisy SFX kick in and ruin the hell out of it.....  if your work around is omitting SFX, then you've done it wrong.

There are always exceptions to this.  Parallax for example does music and SFX good.  So does Myth, and Neverending Story 2 for example.

Also:
==========================
--The NES didn't have rubbish sound.  Don't be crazy.
--The MSX has great FM music.  Don't leave it out.  Add in the Konami SCC, and there you go.  Mix in the stock AY chip, and you have 17 channels of chip-music to be had.
--In the same vein as SCC, is the PC-Engine.  That soundchip never disappoints.  R-Type sounds like crap on Amiga in comparsion. :)
===========================
I think there is plenty of remembrance for stuff other than Paula and SID.


The reason the SID chip is "so great" though, is that it is an actual synthesizer, rather than a PSG.   You generate waveforms and filter/shape the sounds just like you would with say a Roland SH-101 (which you can make sound exactly like a SID, so the SID isn't exactly unique).

Other chips of the time were just bleepbloopers, while the SID was a shweeeepshwooooooper.  It set it apart in a good way from other computers.  Honestly, if the SID wasn't there, alot of the games would suck.

Though I really think the people that go all out of their way to make DIY synths out of SIDs are going a bit overboard, esp since the SID is pretty accident prone.  A roland or moog is way more reliable.
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Offline Amiga_Nut

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 03:40:34 PM »
Quote from: Britelite;559002
Actually, yes you do. There quite a few mod-players that even worked with the good old Adlib-card. The Soundblasters all had a DAC, so there was no need to play sample with the FM-chip.


With an 8086 @ stock IBM XT CPU speed as per the time range of C64? Sure with enough CPU speed you can do renditions of SID via the fantastic C64S DOS emulator and PC speaker option. I'm not 100% on names of PC soundcards circa 85, but there were a few which were simple FM based things. Maybe there was more than one type of ADLIB card, certainly the original sounblaster (not SB-16 etc) from early to mid 80s did FM based OPL stuff no?

Like I said I'm not 100% up on every make and model of sound card, it's fair to say in the early 80s the C64 dumped on PCs from a great height, and so did the A1000 later on. Just because that company died it doesn't fuel my interest to run CGA games on 4.??mhz 8086 boxes now. I didn't miss out on anything by choosing a C64 at launch and an A1000 at launch, that much I know.
 

Offline KThunder

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2010, 03:45:44 PM »
To be fair you really have to compare the sid to the other computers and consoles at the time to see why it was so good. Compared to the vic-20, atari 8bit, apple II series , pc, trs-80, or any of the old games consoles like the old ataris or intellivision etc. it really blows them away.
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Offline Amiga_Nut

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2010, 04:13:00 PM »
Quote from: Arkhan;559022
Or don't.

I once messaged that guy in the band and he had NFI what I was talking about when I mentioned SID/C64.  That instantly made what they were doing seem pretty meh and fake as far as I care.
--------------------------------


Eh.  The SID is great for music, but really sucks for games most of the time.  Look at how many games either have SFX OR music.  (Armalyte, R-Type).  

So many games have decent music, but then the blaring noisy SFX kick in and ruin the hell out of it.....  if your work around is omitting SFX, then you've done it wrong.

There are always exceptions to this.  Parallax for example does music and SFX good.  So does Myth, and Neverending Story 2 for example.

Also:
==========================
--The NES didn't have rubbish sound.  Don't be crazy.
--The MSX has great FM music.  Don't leave it out.  Add in the Konami SCC, and there you go.  Mix in the stock AY chip, and you have 17 channels of chip-music to be had.
--In the same vein as SCC, is the PC-Engine.  That soundchip never disappoints.  R-Type sounds like crap on Amiga in comparsion. :)
===========================
I think there is plenty of remembrance for stuff other than Paula and SID.


The reason the SID chip is "so great" though, is that it is an actual synthesizer, rather than a PSG.   You generate waveforms and filter/shape the sounds just like you would with say a Roland SH-101 (which you can make sound exactly like a SID, so the SID isn't exactly unique).

Other chips of the time were just bleepbloopers, while the SID was a shweeeepshwooooooper.  It set it apart in a good way from other computers.  Honestly, if the SID wasn't there, alot of the games would suck.

Though I really think the people that go all out of their way to make DIY synths out of SIDs are going a bit overboard, esp since the SID is pretty accident prone.  A roland or moog is way more reliable.


Good music is good music, technicalities aside. To me though all NES games were plinky plonk rubbish, and SNES games are very orchestral/General MIDI sounding. The artistic talent just isn't there like some of the great SIDs or stuff like Ghouls n Ghosts on Amiga. It's not a cultural thing because games like Vulcan Venture have awesome soundtracks in the arcade and the Sony chip in the SNES is technically good too. Yes Ghouls n Ghosts IS a crap conversion on Amiga (thanks to idiots hired by US Gold AGAIN!) BUT the music is light years ahead of the rubbish on the console versions. Limiting factor for Amiga games music was the floppy disk, but then cartridges have unlimited memory, With a hard drive on an A600 you could use all 1mb per level nicely without worrying about how many disk swaps would happen.

If anything sounds crap on Amiga it is down to one of two things...

1. Not enough sound channels..tricky to overcome for CPU hogging games code. Most games don't have enough channels to play with, Hybris is a good early example.
2. Crap samples/coding....easy to overcome...bit of a no-brainer in todays all digital world.

Usually it is 2 not 1 though as far as music quality goes, music and effects together has always been tricky on most home computers due to limited total numbers of sound channels. You can't really help it and in some ways I wish the PC version of Super Stardust had used different MOD samples as ultimately those amazing tunes are now forever compromised due to the samples used, necessary though as with just a 14mhz 020 there isn't enough CPU time left to do virtual 6 channel sound AND all the other funky stuff @ 50fps on one of the finest retro remakes ever made for any system. Such a shame the CD32/PC-CD versions used inferior music done on what sounds like a cheap Casio synth from a mail order catalogue for 100 bucks!

And yes as I stated the SID is a simpler version of many early analogue synths, sounds similar to very early 80s synth pop for a very good reason. You either like that kind of sound or you don't.

Ultimately what I do like about both Amiga and C64 sound hardware is that it is possible to get wildly different results, an ST always sounds like an ST unless samples are used, so does a Sinclair, NES and an Amstrad, that AY/YM chip is barely OK in ST/ZX/CPC but nothing to write home about. MSX was a bit of a golden turkey in the EU, so all I remember is for music Yamaha was the one to get as it had extra sound capabilities as standard....rather than getting a Toshiba one (most prevalent on ebay sadly).

But ultimately I have not heard a realistic, or otherwise, electric guitar sound produced from an 80s computer soundchip via waveforms alone except for a certain short tune from Wizball. And guess what one of the first A/V demos of the A1000 shipped to TV shows had on it....could it be an electric guitar sample played via the computer keyboard Protracker style....never :)

Of all the non Commodore machines of the 80s that aurally peeked my interest was probably the Megadrive (Genesis), the tunes on Gauntlet IV and Thunderforce III are just so nice, but at the same time they're different to either MODs or SIDs.

I don't really care what the badge is on a machine, only what comes out the speakers, and to be brutally honest there were better SID soundtracks in the mid 80s than commercial music on the whole in my personal opinion, music was just so boring in the charts in my childhood once experimental synth pop was killed off for plinky plonk pop music crap!
 

Offline Britelite

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2010, 05:50:01 PM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;559035
Maybe there was more than one type of ADLIB card


I was referring to the original Adlib-card that only had a FM-chip, and still people were able to play samples and mods on it.

Quote
certainly the original sounblaster (not SB-16 etc) from early to mid 80s did FM based OPL stuff no?


Yes, the soundblaster had FM-chips (mainly for adlib-compatibility) but every single one of them also had a DAC for samples.

Anyway, my point was that we all know the Amiga was impressive and awesome, so there's no need to make thing up about the PC to make it look bad, it had many faults but please stick to things that are actually true ;)
 

Offline klx300r

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2010, 06:38:24 PM »
@ Amiga Nut

well said! I have dual 6581's in my 64 along with a MSSIAH cart and I can honestly say that NOTHING sounds like the original SID chip (especially Rev4's)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2010, 07:52:59 PM »
Quote from: klx300r;559069
@ Amiga Nut

well said! I have dual 6581's in my 64 along with a MSSIAH cart and I can honestly say that NOTHING sounds like the original SID chip (especially Rev4's)


Surely revision 1 is the original SID chip :p
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Offline KThunder

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2010, 07:55:25 PM »
The 1st dual sid setup came out in the mid-80's didn't it? It was on a cart I think. Commodore should have incorperated it into the 64c and c128. The Amiga could have done even more with dual sids too.
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Offline Jpan1

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2010, 09:17:39 PM »
I'm still trying to get big into chip muzik...there's some wierd sounds going about these day or has time actually retro forwarded? for the best chip sounds came from Manics of Noise, and if you make a chip sounds expressive, then that's a major achievement for composers with limited noise producing machines that actually do the stuff from yesterday what we hear today ! :)
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2010, 09:42:49 PM »
Quote from: KThunder;559084
The 1st dual sid setup came out in the mid-80's didn't it? It was on a cart I think. Commodore should have incorperated it into the 64c and c128. The Amiga could have done even more with dual sids too.


Yeah, with as cheap as MOS could crank out the SID, it would have been cool if they had thrown one or two in the Amiga as a programmable synth, in addition to the digital Paula.  Paula's synth capabilities weren't as hot.  Offloading that would have allowed games to have great chiptunes while still having all the digital sample slots for multiple sound effect layering.

And as for what is so great about the SID.  Well, as mentioned, it's a real synth.  I hate to sound like a corny audiophile nut, but you just don't quite get that same sound from a digital sample as you do from a real synth.   I haven't done the blindfolded sound test, but I honestly think if someone played a tune on a real SID (or another synth chip) and then the same tune from a digitally emulated synth, I could tell the difference.  (Unlike the folks who need all gold-plated connector ends, even for their USB and Firewire cables...)  I know I could tell when my C64 emulator was using my Catweasel SID and when it wasn't.

And with so many people having the Commodore 64, the SID name has a lot of nostalgia for a lot of people who owned them.
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2010, 01:49:46 AM »
Quote from: J-Golden;558966
I owned a C-64 but I was real young and more into games and the like.  I keep hearing and seeing ppl. go head over heals about this chip but I never quite understood why it was so great.
 
I had a disk of SID music way back then so I know it plays music and stuff, but it only reminded me of .MOD music...


By "MOD" music I assume you mean multi-channel sound...

SID was pretty cool. It has 3 sound channels/voice each of which had various waveforms you could pick from(including sine, square, random etc). Those sounds where then altered by the envelope generator which would basically control the volume. By setting the waveform and the envelope generator for various timings of Attack, Delay, Sustain, Release intervals you could make a sound resembling a musical instrument, or alternately, make something sounding really unique/strange/funky. On top of that there are sound filters and I forget what else.

Most common computers at the time(excluding Atari which I can't speak for) had less sophisticated sound generators and only had a single channel/voice.

I do think the SID sounds very unique/distinct, but I'm also partial to the Roland MT32 for the same reason.
 

Offline bbond007

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2010, 01:56:22 AM »
Quote from: Britelite;559059
I was referring to the original Adlib-card that only had a FM-chip, and still people were able to play samples and mods on it.


The Adlib card had no digital output and I don't believe was ever able to play MODS...

The SoundBlaster(which I called the "Sandblaster") was Adlib-compatible but had 1 8bit sound channel which a fast 386/486 could mix 4 (amiga/mod) channel sound into a single channel. The FM sounds channels were typically used for midi type music or basic sound effects.
 

Offline Britelite

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2010, 06:36:22 AM »
Quote from: bbond007;559201
The Adlib card had no digital output and I don't believe was ever able to play MODS...


And that's where you're wrong, I've played a lot of mods on it :)

Quote
The SoundBlaster(which I called the "Sandblaster") was Adlib-compatible but had 1 8bit sound channel which a fast 386/486 could mix 4 (amiga/mod) channel sound into a single channel.


Actually, playing 4-channel mods with software mixing on a soundblaster was possible even on a 8MHz XT.
 

Offline Arkhan

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Re: What is so great about the SID chip?
« Reply #29 from previous page: May 18, 2010, 07:05:21 AM »
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;559039
Good music is good music, technicalities aside. To me though all NES games were plinky plonk rubbish, and SNES games are very orchestral/General MIDI sounding. The artistic talent just isn't there like some of the great SIDs or stuff like Ghouls n Ghosts on Amiga. It's not a cultural thing because games like Vulcan Venture have awesome soundtracks in the arcade and the Sony chip in the SNES is technically good too. Yes Ghouls n Ghosts IS a crap conversion on Amiga (thanks to idiots hired by US Gold AGAIN!) BUT the music is light years ahead of the rubbish on the console versions. Limiting factor for Amiga games music was the floppy disk, but then cartridges have unlimited memory, With a hard drive on an A600 you could use all 1mb per level nicely without worrying about how many disk swaps would happen.

Well, Ghouls and Ghosts had the same tunes throughout all systems.... except for the Amiga, which had some cracked out disaster that was not like the arcade one at all.   Even the NES's Ghosts n Goblins had the right tracks lol.

Also the Amiga one had no sound effects, which is another big WTF.  

I much rather prefer the "plonky" / "cheesy" stuff that resembles the arcade ones as opposed to Soap Opera sounding background music and ambient noises or wonky sounding stuff that sounds like it belongs at a carnival.  So calling the home ones that aren't Amiga rubbish is basically calling the arcade one rubbish too....

If you want an awesome arcade to home conversion of GnG.. see Daimakaimura for Super Grafx.   Perfect soundtrack done w/ 32-Byte waveforms, and crisp visuals.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NNXwvndjg

and you can also check out the Megadrive one which has more arcade like FM tunes.

Both are excellent.

The arcade machines usually rocked the FM like a motherfudger anyway, and it often suits the games better.   Then the home machines have similar hardware and sounds, and everyone rejoices at similar home versions of arcade games...

Amiga's Golden Axe was also guilty of this lack-of-proper-soundtrack business.  I don't like swinging swords around to dance club music.  

Quote

Usually it is 2 not 1 though as far as music quality goes, music and effects together has always been tricky on most home computers due to limited total numbers of sound channels. You can't really help it


Japanese consoles/games never seem to have this problem.  MSX, NES, SMS, PC-Engine.... they all handled the sound limitations like a champ.  It's commonplace on these systems for the music to be playing and then a sound effect comes on, toggles one of the channels off to play the sound effect.... and then the music picks up right where it left off.  Perfectly blending sound effects and music without sacrificing anything.......

The omitting one or the other maneuver seems like something you only see on the C64 and sometimes (rarely) the Amiga.  I never understood why.   It really kills a game to not get both, especially if the arcade one had both...

Like R-Type for C64!
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