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AuthorTopic: Masjsta's A500 Vampire  (Read 1207 times)

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Offline Djole

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2016, 11:46:46 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;814415
And as there are a lot of missing features and they are talking about charging for new features then sure.



Why not? They are the only people doing amiga fpga accelerators right now, but it's certainly not unthinkable that the fpgaarcade/mist etc would lead to accelerators.

It's cool sure, but don't get sucked in thinking they were the only ones that could do this & 150 mips? Great for an Amiga, but a raspberry pi still blows it away at a fraction of the price. It's a product with a very small audience, so they'll never get good price breaks. Which is unfortunate.

An A1200 accelerator coupled with a "not an A1200" motherboard from Jens would go on my wish list, but it appears we're even further away from that happening.


Someone COULD maybe make some other FPGA accelerator but I don't see anyone reproducing and improving 68k core in such a way like Apollo team has done. I dont think people understand how big, complex, fast and modern Apollo core is.
A1200 030
A1200 stock
A600 Vampire v2

VOLIM TE REPUBLIKO SRPSKA!
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Offline slimf

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2016, 11:59:55 AM »
Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?

Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??
 

Offline Djole

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2016, 12:21:20 PM »
Quote from: slimf;814435
Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?

Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??


Well the main benefit on Amiga is speed of course, the faster the better if you ask me. It also opens doors for sw that was not possible on Amiga before. Apollo core could be used in other systems too, currently it lacks FPU (which is in the making) and MMU (not sure if this is planned). As i understand it, the current plan is to make v500, v1200 (with better specs) and then move to a standalone system.
A1200 030
A1200 stock
A600 Vampire v2

VOLIM TE REPUBLIKO SRPSKA!
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Offline kolla

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2016, 03:59:48 PM »
Quote from: Djole;814434
I dont think people understand how big, complex, fast and modern Apollo core is.


And how unsupported it is by all compilers and out there.

In my view, the AC 68080 only has a snowball's chance in hell if they somehow manage to attract a bigger company that can mass produce dead cheap ASIC of it, and thereby make it a viable choice for embedded developers. An Amiga-only CPU core (and for the few) is no way to bring 68k back.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline PPC

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 05:36:49 AM »
Quote from: slimf;814435
Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?

Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??


The benefit is that it opens doors for new software on classic Amiga that wasn't possible before because even a 060 would be too slow.
The end Game is providing a path forward for our ageing hardware with full backwards compatibility.
The second benefit is that this hardware is a lot cheaper and faster then current 68060 accelerators and you get RTG as a really nice bonus.

Even a V600 running at x11 is already over twice as fast as a 68060 50Mhz.
Running at x13 or x14 it's over 3 times faster then a 68060 50Mhz.
And that's with existing software/code that is not even optimized for Apollo-core on a low end FPGA the cyclone 3 is.
And with almost every core update the Apollo-core is gaining speed.

Since I got my V600 I use the A600 every day again with much joy.
It boots my quite GFX heavy OS3.9 in 720p res in about 3 seconds, it plays MP3 while I Surf the web, share files with my PC, chatting on IRC,watch a slide show all at the same time with no sweat at all.

I'm really looking forward to the V1200 that will be faster and have a lot more memory.
Amiga is addictive coz it is fun to use

A1200 Elbox power tower, BPPC 040/25+603e 240 Mhz, 128 MB RAM,Bvision,Zorro IV&Zorro IV PCI busboard,X-surf,Buddha IDE
A4000 Elbox power tower,CSPPC 060/60+604e 233Mhz, 128 MB RAM,CvisonPPC, AriadneII
A600+Vampire V2,A604N+RTC,SUM USB keyboard controller,Topolino with logitech wireless keyboard&mouse
 

Offline kolla

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 06:31:29 AM »
Quote from: PPC;814473
The benefit is that it opens doors for new software on classic Amiga that wasn't possible before because even a 060 would be too slow.


Such as? Look at OS4, MorphOS and AROS, there you have plenty of hardware way faster than that of classic Amiga, way faster than AC 68080, yet... the software issue remains. Besides, the Vampire is not that much faster than a 060, especially since the 060 has a well supporter FPU. To really take advantage of the AC 68080, you need software written especially for it, you need dedicated support in toolchains and compilers - or do people expect developers to manually optimise all applications by hand using asm?

Quote

It boots my quite GFX heavy OS3.9 in 720p res in about 3 seconds, it plays MP3 while I Surf the web, share files with my PC, chatting on IRC,watch a slide show all at the same time with no sweat at all.


So it is almost comparable with a 5 year old smart phone :)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline PPC

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 08:09:35 AM »
You do not need to re-compile older/current software to use the upcoming FPU on the Apollo-Core, it's fully backwards compatible (and a lot faster)
Until silver 9 core 50% of the FPU instructions where implemented and AFA OS (that uses the FPU) worked flawless.

In raw integer performance the Vampire leaves a 68060 in the dust, it is way faster then 060, the benchmarks do not lie, you can look them up.
Once the FPU is implemented (it's done and currently being tested) this also will leave a 060 in the dust on FPU performance.
And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?

You are right when you want to take full advantage of Apollo Core like using AMMX you'll have to do some ASM code or inline ASM code.
But the main point is that Apollo-Core is fully backwards compatible and existing software will run and a lot faster then on 060.

Also The Vampire activated a lot of ex-Amiga users that where inactive for years, so was I for for 10 years, until this happened.
And the Vampire is affordable even with the current price raise to 250 euro for V600 and V500. (060 card will cost double, triple  that ?)
There is nothing in the classic Amiga market that even comes close in price/performance.

And quit comparing 25 year old systems to modern ones, you cannot beat those, Classic Amiga is a hobby it will never be mainstream again.
And from this point of view Vampire/Apollo-core is the best thing that happened for classic Amiga since PPC cards.
Besides that My A600 with vampire2 can play a MP3 without stuttering unlike my old S3, what does that sometimes for no reason at all, though having more processing power.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:04:23 AM by PPC »
Amiga is addictive coz it is fun to use

A1200 Elbox power tower, BPPC 040/25+603e 240 Mhz, 128 MB RAM,Bvision,Zorro IV&Zorro IV PCI busboard,X-surf,Buddha IDE
A4000 Elbox power tower,CSPPC 060/60+604e 233Mhz, 128 MB RAM,CvisonPPC, AriadneII
A600+Vampire V2,A604N+RTC,SUM USB keyboard controller,Topolino with logitech wireless keyboard&mouse
 

Offline gertsy

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Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 09:16:01 AM »
Quote from: kolla;814474
Such as? Look at OS4, MorphOS and AROS, there you have plenty of hardware way faster than that of classic Amiga, way faster than AC 68080, yet... the software issue remains. Besides, the Vampire is not that much faster than a 060, especially since the 060 has a well supporter FPU. To really take advantage of the AC 68080, you need software written especially for it, you need dedicated support in toolchains and compilers - or do people expect developers to manually optimise all applications by hand using asm?



So it is almost comparable with a 5 year old smart phone :)


Bit rough taking one component of a contextual holistic response and tearing it down. It stands in context with the other reasons. Your alternates don't.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 10:37:41 AM »
Quote from: PPC;814476
And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?

You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.
Apollo isn't really aimed at being compatible with Amiga applications, we're just a soft launch for Gunnars bid to take on the embedded fpga cpu market. It just needs to be good enough to look good when people are selecting a cpu.

They may have seen the light and changed their minds, I can only go on what I've seen them post publicly.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:40:33 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline PPC

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 01:19:24 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814480
You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.
Apollo isn't really aimed at being compatible with Amiga applications, we're just a soft launch for Gunnars bid to take on the embedded fpga cpu market. It just needs to be good enough to look good when people are selecting a cpu.

They may have seen the light and changed their minds, I can only go on what I've seen them post publicly.


Well Gunnar actually stated more then once that Apollo Core will be the most compatible 68K CPU ever, it even has 68040 instructions that Motorola left out in the 68060.
Amiga is addictive coz it is fun to use

A1200 Elbox power tower, BPPC 040/25+603e 240 Mhz, 128 MB RAM,Bvision,Zorro IV&Zorro IV PCI busboard,X-surf,Buddha IDE
A4000 Elbox power tower,CSPPC 060/60+604e 233Mhz, 128 MB RAM,CvisonPPC, AriadneII
A600+Vampire V2,A604N+RTC,SUM USB keyboard controller,Topolino with logitech wireless keyboard&mouse
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2016, 04:22:06 PM »
Quote from: PPC;814484
it even has 68040 instructions that Motorola left out in the 68060.

Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060. Gunnar has a different idea of compatibility than I do. He appears to only be interested in running golden software, I want to be able to run anything that you can run on a 68060. If I want to write software that relies on 68040 instructions trapping then I should be able to. If he allowed it to be configured, or even open source it then we'd have a choice. I don't think he has the right personality for that though.

On the FPU & MMU things get worse. He thinks that we can just write new MMU software and ignore anything like existing debug tools, virtual memory and BSD distros. At one point I think he was talking about using a different precision model for the FPU. With some vague hope that just because it's floating point, that nothing will rely on getting the same results as an 060 FPU would give. Which may be true for golden software that he's deemed worthy, but if you don't meet his requirement for worthiness then good luck.

He may have changed his mind on all of this, in which case a vampire would be a worthwhile purchase. But for me I'd rather not buy something where the source isn't available and he's not committed to 100% compatibility with real chips rather than only being interested in the ego trip of inventing a new one.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 04:29:23 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Lizard

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2016, 06:14:48 PM »
The instructions that where left out in the 68060, are trapped and emulated by the 68060.library. So the vampire core is quicker in that aspect, since the instructions don't need to raise an exception.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2016, 06:52:38 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814480
You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.


last i remember they (gunnar) have said the fpu (wip, not currently included) is compatible what concerns instruction set and precission.

this doesnt currently apply to mmu. even though it even seems to be on a todo list. currentl they are providing another module of similar functionality under acronym of mpu.

btw, experienced amiga hardware architect, krashan, seems to have similar opinion on neccessity of compatible mmu as apollo team..
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2016, 06:59:38 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814489
Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060.


i dont have a vampire, but in my eyes it is more compatible with both, then they are with each other. is this the reason to complain? or do you insist on using some particular 68060.library just for the sake of it? seriously, i dont understand your comments except its just nitpicking.. have you complained as well and refused to accept their products, when motorola delivered 040 and 060 without full backward compatibility, that had to be granted with libraries? have you refused to use 68k processors that dont do self modyfying code (without turning off the caches) that apollo seesm to handle transparently? because it sounds like you think, the apollo core is *too good* to be acceptable.
 

Offline SpaceMonkey

Re: Masjsta's A500 Vampire
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2016, 07:36:36 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;814489
Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060. Gunnar has a different idea of compatibility than I do. He appears to only be interested in running golden software, I want to be able to run anything that you can run on a 68060. If I want to write software that relies on 68040 instructions trapping then I should be able to. If he allowed it to be configured, or even open source it then we'd have a choice. I don't think he has the right personality for that though.

On the FPU & MMU things get worse. He thinks that we can just write new MMU software and ignore anything like existing debug tools, virtual memory and BSD distros. At one point I think he was talking about using a different precision model for the FPU. With some vague hope that just because it's floating point, that nothing will rely on getting the same results as an 060 FPU would give. Which may be true for golden software that he's deemed worthy, but if you don't meet his requirement for worthiness then good luck.

He may have changed his mind on all of this, in which case a vampire would be a worthwhile purchase. But for me I'd rather not buy something where the source isn't available and he's not committed to 100% compatibility with real chips rather than only being interested in the ego trip of inventing a new one.
As far as i can see it supports all of the 040 & 060 function plus been more efficiency while adding mmx, with FPU and MMU support to follow. The biggest advantage each fix, enhancement is just a re-flashing away.

I guessing some people don't like progress, and think the Amiga 1000 with Workbench 1  256 kb and a 68000 was the pinnacle of the Amiga story.

The vampire is reason why i bought an Amiga 600 after selling my 4000 around 15 years ago.