Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: spaceman88 on September 24, 2016, 04:07:43 PM
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I see the A500 Vampire is up to $888.83 (CDN$) with about a day and a half left. Someone really wants one and/or they are throwing a little extra in for "a good cause". Kipper2k should put one up next...
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I see the A500 Vampire is up to $888.83 (CDN$) with about a day and a half left. Someone really wants one and/or they are throwing a little extra in for "a good cause". Kipper2k should put one up next...
sick people
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If they want to throw money at it, let em. Its way more than I think an A500 deserves put into it though.
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Chief,
I'm with you on this one.
Yes, I would like one.
No, I'll be hanged if I'll drop that much into an A500.
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I think the sales that are on Ebay right now from the actual design team are fine. If people want to pay a lot of money to be the first few to have the Vampire II before the production is spun up, then let them. It helps the team fund the Apollo projects so they don't fade away!
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First of all guys, what someone wants to do with something they possess is not up to US. If they want to sell things for high prices thats on them. Considering its the vampire team themselves according to rumor have you guys thought about maybe they are using these funds to finance production? Not only that they deserve every penny they get!
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If people want to pay a lot of money to be the first few to have the Vampire II before the production is spun up, then let them. It helps the team fund the Apollo projects so they don't fade away!
I don't care about the price people are paying on ebay for them, but the price of the production units appears to be on an upward trajectory. So by the time they start shipping in greater numbers, that ebay price might be a real steal.
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First of all guys, what someone wants to do with something they possess is not up to US. If they want to sell things for high prices thats on them. Considering its the vampire team themselves according to rumor have you guys thought about maybe they are using these funds to finance production? Not only that they deserve every penny they get!
+1
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The current Vampire 500 has the same feature set as the V2 600 with the addition of an IDE controller. They were operating below cost. Now they have some breathing room. I expect the standalone versions on the way to cost more but they will be bristling with features. For $800 Apollo Team would make a super system
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I don't care about the price people are paying on ebay for them, but the price of the production units appears to be on an upward trajectory. So by the time they start shipping in greater numbers, that ebay price might be a real steal.
hahaha! I don't price creep is in the future of the Apollo team offerings. They were simply operating at a loss. And the cash that come in funds, Vampire 1200 , Phoenix and Standalone. The amount of work being done is staggering to witness first hand. They are writing processor cores from scratch and squeezing every bit of performance out of each FPGA gate.
I think it's hilarious how 68k is panned as dead platform and here comes Apollo Team out of no where and accomplish so much in a short space of time.
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hahaha! I don't price creep is in the future of the Apollo team offerings. They were simply operating at a loss.
I understand that they were operating at a loss & are now increasing their price to cover the cost, that is fine. But the official price has already increased.
I think it's hilarious how 68k is panned as dead platform and here comes Apollo Team out of no where and accomplish so much in a short space of time.
Such a short time? Vampire has been going for years and Apollo years before that. When people say 68k is dead they mean it in the same way that the Ford Model T is dead. Sure you'll get people keeping them running, but it's a labour of love rather than taking on the industry. They can probably make money out of 68k like Jens Schoenfield does, but not like Intel/ARM/Motorola does.
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Such a short time? Vampire has been going for years and Apollo years before that. [/QUOTE
Vampire 1 came out in 2013, used an open core. Vampire 2 benefited from previous work done for Natami... another can of worms.
Yep it's all essentially homebrew with 2 guys on hardware and a couple of heavy hitters unpaid core dev and some upaid testers. Hardware done at cost until the price increase and core dev is free.
Not exactly Amiga, Commodore, Newtek, or GVP by a longshot. So with that in mind I try to be supportive and not complain too much unless something really outlandish happens due to all the comp work being done on this project. Is a $100 price increase outlandish, some would say so. I don't think so.
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Hopefully Vampire and projects like it will inspire growth in the Amiga scene.
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I understand that they were operating at a loss & are now increasing their price to cover the cost, that is fine. But the official price has already increased.
Ok and I don't think it will increase unless future versions benefit from more features.
From what I have seen they are developing solutions to maximize every penny spent for future iterations. They appear to respect both classic hardware and standalone enthusiasts in future projects.
I have a test vampire2 500 on the way that does 140/150 mips as standard.....150 MIPS.... A have an A4k that does 18 mips. There is no comparison...! So I try not to hassle them too much. Also other developers run a few hundred units at each production run and take months if not years to develop so I can't get too critical of them either. I never in my wildest dreams though I would see such developments.
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Ok and I don't think it will increase unless future versions benefit from more features.
And as there are a lot of missing features and they are talking about charging for new features then sure.
I never in my wildest dreams though I would see such developments.
Why not? They are the only people doing amiga fpga accelerators right now, but it's certainly not unthinkable that the fpgaarcade/mist etc would lead to accelerators.
It's cool sure, but don't get sucked in thinking they were the only ones that could do this & 150 mips? Great for an Amiga, but a raspberry pi still blows it away at a fraction of the price. It's a product with a very small audience, so they'll never get good price breaks. Which is unfortunate.
An A1200 accelerator coupled with a "not an A1200" motherboard from Jens would go on my wish list, but it appears we're even further away from that happening.
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And as there are a lot of missing features and they are talking about charging for new features then sure.
Why not? They are the only people doing amiga fpga accelerators right now, but it's certainly not unthinkable that the fpgaarcade/mist etc would lead to accelerators.
It's cool sure, but don't get sucked in thinking they were the only ones that could do this & 150 mips? Great for an Amiga, but a raspberry pi still blows it away at a fraction of the price. It's a product with a very small audience, so they'll never get good price breaks. Which is unfortunate.
An A1200 accelerator coupled with a "not an A1200" motherboard from Jens would go on my wish list, but it appears we're even further away from that happening.
Someone COULD maybe make some other FPGA accelerator but I don't see anyone reproducing and improving 68k core in such a way like Apollo team has done. I dont think people understand how big, complex, fast and modern Apollo core is.
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Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?
Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??
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Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?
Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??
Well the main benefit on Amiga is speed of course, the faster the better if you ask me. It also opens doors for sw that was not possible on Amiga before. Apollo core could be used in other systems too, currently it lacks FPU (which is in the making) and MMU (not sure if this is planned). As i understand it, the current plan is to make v500, v1200 (with better specs) and then move to a standalone system.
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I dont think people understand how big, complex, fast and modern Apollo core is.
And how unsupported it is by all compilers and out there.
In my view, the AC 68080 only has a snowball's chance in hell if they somehow manage to attract a bigger company that can mass produce dead cheap ASIC of it, and thereby make it a viable choice for embedded developers. An Amiga-only CPU core (and for the few) is no way to bring 68k back.
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Can you explain the benifits of having a "complex, modern, fast core" is? ( other than running 30 year old software fast? Is there an end game for it?
Is the end game complete replacement hardware that's backwards compatible or??
The benefit is that it opens doors for new software on classic Amiga that wasn't possible before because even a 060 would be too slow.
The end Game is providing a path forward for our ageing hardware with full backwards compatibility.
The second benefit is that this hardware is a lot cheaper and faster then current 68060 accelerators and you get RTG as a really nice bonus.
Even a V600 running at x11 is already over twice as fast as a 68060 50Mhz.
Running at x13 or x14 it's over 3 times faster then a 68060 50Mhz.
And that's with existing software/code that is not even optimized for Apollo-core on a low end FPGA the cyclone 3 is.
And with almost every core update the Apollo-core is gaining speed.
Since I got my V600 I use the A600 every day again with much joy.
It boots my quite GFX heavy OS3.9 in 720p res in about 3 seconds, it plays MP3 while I Surf the web, share files with my PC, chatting on IRC,watch a slide show all at the same time with no sweat at all.
I'm really looking forward to the V1200 that will be faster and have a lot more memory.
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The benefit is that it opens doors for new software on classic Amiga that wasn't possible before because even a 060 would be too slow.
Such as? Look at OS4, MorphOS and AROS, there you have plenty of hardware way faster than that of classic Amiga, way faster than AC 68080, yet... the software issue remains. Besides, the Vampire is not that much faster than a 060, especially since the 060 has a well supporter FPU. To really take advantage of the AC 68080, you need software written especially for it, you need dedicated support in toolchains and compilers - or do people expect developers to manually optimise all applications by hand using asm?
It boots my quite GFX heavy OS3.9 in 720p res in about 3 seconds, it plays MP3 while I Surf the web, share files with my PC, chatting on IRC,watch a slide show all at the same time with no sweat at all.
So it is almost comparable with a 5 year old smart phone :)
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You do not need to re-compile older/current software to use the upcoming FPU on the Apollo-Core, it's fully backwards compatible (and a lot faster)
Until silver 9 core 50% of the FPU instructions where implemented and AFA OS (that uses the FPU) worked flawless.
In raw integer performance the Vampire leaves a 68060 in the dust, it is way faster then 060, the benchmarks do not lie, you can look them up.
Once the FPU is implemented (it's done and currently being tested) this also will leave a 060 in the dust on FPU performance.
And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?
You are right when you want to take full advantage of Apollo Core like using AMMX you'll have to do some ASM code or inline ASM code.
But the main point is that Apollo-Core is fully backwards compatible and existing software will run and a lot faster then on 060.
Also The Vampire activated a lot of ex-Amiga users that where inactive for years, so was I for for 10 years, until this happened.
And the Vampire is affordable even with the current price raise to 250 euro for V600 and V500. (060 card will cost double, triple that ?)
There is nothing in the classic Amiga market that even comes close in price/performance.
And quit comparing 25 year old systems to modern ones, you cannot beat those, Classic Amiga is a hobby it will never be mainstream again.
And from this point of view Vampire/Apollo-core is the best thing that happened for classic Amiga since PPC cards.
Besides that My A600 with vampire2 can play a MP3 without stuttering unlike my old S3, what does that sometimes for no reason at all, though having more processing power.
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Such as? Look at OS4, MorphOS and AROS, there you have plenty of hardware way faster than that of classic Amiga, way faster than AC 68080, yet... the software issue remains. Besides, the Vampire is not that much faster than a 060, especially since the 060 has a well supporter FPU. To really take advantage of the AC 68080, you need software written especially for it, you need dedicated support in toolchains and compilers - or do people expect developers to manually optimise all applications by hand using asm?
So it is almost comparable with a 5 year old smart phone :)
Bit rough taking one component of a contextual holistic response and tearing it down. It stands in context with the other reasons. Your alternates don't.
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And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?
You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.
Apollo isn't really aimed at being compatible with Amiga applications, we're just a soft launch for Gunnars bid to take on the embedded fpga cpu market. It just needs to be good enough to look good when people are selecting a cpu.
They may have seen the light and changed their minds, I can only go on what I've seen them post publicly.
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You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.
Apollo isn't really aimed at being compatible with Amiga applications, we're just a soft launch for Gunnars bid to take on the embedded fpga cpu market. It just needs to be good enough to look good when people are selecting a cpu.
They may have seen the light and changed their minds, I can only go on what I've seen them post publicly.
Well Gunnar actually stated more then once that Apollo Core will be the most compatible 68K CPU ever, it even has 68040 instructions that Motorola left out in the 68060.
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it even has 68040 instructions that Motorola left out in the 68060.
Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060. Gunnar has a different idea of compatibility than I do. He appears to only be interested in running golden software, I want to be able to run anything that you can run on a 68060. If I want to write software that relies on 68040 instructions trapping then I should be able to. If he allowed it to be configured, or even open source it then we'd have a choice. I don't think he has the right personality for that though.
On the FPU & MMU things get worse. He thinks that we can just write new MMU software and ignore anything like existing debug tools, virtual memory and BSD distros. At one point I think he was talking about using a different precision model for the FPU. With some vague hope that just because it's floating point, that nothing will rely on getting the same results as an 060 FPU would give. Which may be true for golden software that he's deemed worthy, but if you don't meet his requirement for worthiness then good luck.
He may have changed his mind on all of this, in which case a vampire would be a worthwhile purchase. But for me I'd rather not buy something where the source isn't available and he's not committed to 100% compatibility with real chips rather than only being interested in the ego trip of inventing a new one.
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The instructions that where left out in the 68060, are trapped and emulated by the 68060.library. So the vampire core is quicker in that aspect, since the instructions don't need to raise an exception.
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You're right, I don't see the point. However at various times through development they've said they aren't really bothered about being compatible. The same with the MMU.
last i remember they (gunnar) have said the fpu (wip, not currently included) is compatible what concerns instruction set and precission.
this doesnt currently apply to mmu. even though it even seems to be on a todo list. currentl they are providing another module of similar functionality under acronym of mpu.
btw, experienced amiga hardware architect, krashan, seems to have similar opinion on neccessity of compatible mmu as apollo team..
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Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060.
i dont have a vampire, but in my eyes it is more compatible with both, then they are with each other. is this the reason to complain? or do you insist on using some particular 68060.library just for the sake of it? seriously, i dont understand your comments except its just nitpicking.. have you complained as well and refused to accept their products, when motorola delivered 040 and 060 without full backward compatibility, that had to be granted with libraries? have you refused to use 68k processors that dont do self modyfying code (without turning off the caches) that apollo seesm to handle transparently? because it sounds like you think, the apollo core is *too good* to be acceptable.
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Yeah, so it's neither compatible with the 68040 or the 68060. Gunnar has a different idea of compatibility than I do. He appears to only be interested in running golden software, I want to be able to run anything that you can run on a 68060. If I want to write software that relies on 68040 instructions trapping then I should be able to. If he allowed it to be configured, or even open source it then we'd have a choice. I don't think he has the right personality for that though.
On the FPU & MMU things get worse. He thinks that we can just write new MMU software and ignore anything like existing debug tools, virtual memory and BSD distros. At one point I think he was talking about using a different precision model for the FPU. With some vague hope that just because it's floating point, that nothing will rely on getting the same results as an 060 FPU would give. Which may be true for golden software that he's deemed worthy, but if you don't meet his requirement for worthiness then good luck.
He may have changed his mind on all of this, in which case a vampire would be a worthwhile purchase. But for me I'd rather not buy something where the source isn't available and he's not committed to 100% compatibility with real chips rather than only being interested in the ego trip of inventing a new one.
As far as i can see it supports all of the 040 & 060 function plus been more efficiency while adding mmx, with FPU and MMU support to follow. The biggest advantage each fix, enhancement is just a re-flashing away.
I guessing some people don't like progress, and think the Amiga 1000 with Workbench 1 256 kb and a 68000 was the pinnacle of the Amiga story.
The vampire is reason why i bought an Amiga 600 after selling my 4000 around 15 years ago.
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As far as i can see it supports all of the 040 & 060 function plus been more efficiency while adding mmx
This is one addition that I really don't understand. What is the point of having Intel MMX instructions available on an Amiga? It's not like there is any software to take advantage of them is there?
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i'm sure that has the same argument for when the FPU was first released or a 512Kb memory expansion for the Amiga 500
As for the MMX, datatype is the most obvious first choice
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This is one addition that I really don't understand. What is the point of having Intel MMX instructions available on an Amiga? It's not like there is any software to take advantage of them is there?
im not that convinced either, though it dosent hurt, i guess..
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I guess he liked the results of the first one, Majsta has listed a second Vampire 500. Bidding is up to $300 US (started at $12).
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I guess he liked the results of the first one, Majsta has listed a second Vampire 500. Bidding is up to $300 US (started at $12).
It looks like it was just relisted. Maybe the seller refused to pay?
After many years of development Vampire 500 V2 accelerator is finished and this is first official sale.
Also, as I was watching it first time round I got the following email:
Everyone deserves a second chance - your watched item has been relisted.
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It looks like it was just relisted. Maybe the seller refused to pay?
Also, as I was watching it first time round I got the following email:
I was also watching the first one and got the same message. If he has 2 (or 20) it's easier to just hit the relist button than to make a whole new auction. If the winner of the the first auction backed out he would probably do a "second chance offer" to the next highest bidder.
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You do not need to re-compile older/current software to use the upcoming FPU on the Apollo-Core, it's fully backwards compatible (and a lot faster)
If that really is the case, then Gunnar has changed his view. Good.
In raw integer performance the Vampire leaves a 68060 in the dust, it is way faster then 060, the benchmarks do not lie, you can look them up.
I have, and yeah, faster than a 50MHz 060, but not so much faster than a 100MHz 060. It does not leave the 060 in the dust, it is typically only 50-120% faster. And that is on benchmarks, not "real life" tasks. I am not saying it is bad, I am just saying that it is not so much faster that it makes much difference if you want to run so called "modern" software.
Once the FPU is implemented (it's done and currently being tested) this also will leave a 060 in the dust on FPU performance.
Time will show.
And what is the point implementing a FPU that does not support current software ?!?
Indeed, that was exactly what I was asking some time ago. If it is really true that the FPU will be compatible (with 040 or 060 FPU? 68881/68882?) I am happy to hear that he has changed his views.
You are right when you want to take full advantage of Apollo Core like using AMMX you'll have to do some ASM code or inline ASM code.
But the main point is that Apollo-Core is fully backwards compatible and existing software will run and a lot faster then on 060.
Again, that is not exactly what he has been arguing up through the time, where his view has been that since FPU and MMU are nothing that "most users" or "most software" use anyways, he is free to implement them however he like, and awesomeness alone would be enough to attract software developers.
Also The Vampire activated a lot of ex-Amiga users that where inactive for years, so was I for for 10 years, until this happened.
And the Vampire is affordable even with the current price raise to 250 euro for V600 and V500. (060 card will cost double, triple that ?)
There is nothing in the classic Amiga market that even comes close in price/performance.
I don't argue that.
And quit comparing 25 year old systems to modern ones, you cannot beat those, Classic Amiga is a hobby it will never be mainstream again.
Indeed, I am glad you realise, unlike so many others.
Then perhaps you realise that software development for classic Amiga is a hobby too, and that it is quite limited what kind of "modern" software you can expect to see, just because we now have a CPU that in general is 2-3 times faster.
And from this point of view Vampire/Apollo-core is the best thing that happened for classic Amiga since PPC cards.
Besides that My A600 with vampire2 can play a MP3 without stuttering unlike my old S3, what does that sometimes for no reason at all, though having more processing power.
People still play mp3s? I am impressed :laughing: Sorry, that is nice and all, and I suppose it is impressive to do something like that with a 68k CPU on an A600, it's just that I was playing mp3s on my A600 like 15+ years ago already, not using the CPU (a 50MHz 030+882), but still.
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This is one addition that I really don't understand. What is the point of having Intel MMX instructions available on an Amiga? It's not like there is any software to take advantage of them is there?
The why is because Amiga isn't his target audience.
You may not have to recompile FPU software, but that doesn't mean it produces the same results. I'd like to see that said first.
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The why is because Amiga isn't his target audience.
You may not have to recompile FPU software, but that doesn't mean it produces the same results. I'd like to see that said first.
Does Majsta and the Apollo team have different goals? From what I've seen, and it's probably a very incomplete view since I haven't really delved into it, it seems like Majsta wants to make accelerators for classic Amigas while the Apollo team seems to view Amiga compatibility as just a starting point with the goal of a standalone, Amiga-ish machine. Sort of an Amiga plus (or perhaps minus depending on your point of view).
I could definitely be completely wrong because, like I said, I haven't really dug into it much. If it is true, maybe it's unfair / wrong to discuss them as one and the same?
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Does Majsta and the Apollo team have different goals?
Definitely, but I don't think Majsta has that much say over how Apollo works. So he only gets what they want, the same as we do :/
They are essentially one and the same, until someone makes a competing core for the vampire.
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the same as we do :/
then do something different if you are not satisfied with the results delivered for you.
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+1
greasy i think thats the first time you ever agreed with me! :)
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then do something different if you are not satisfied with the results delivered for you.
I am doing something different, I'm making sure people know the truth.
Maybe then enough people will refuse to buy it until it's the way it should be done. If not then I'll buy something else.
That is how people put pressure on companies to provide them the services they want. Or are you saying I'm not allowed to do that?
last i remember they (gunnar) have said the fpu (wip, not currently included) is compatible what concerns instruction set and precission.
this doesnt currently apply to mmu. even though it even seems to be on a todo list.
If that is official then I don't see why they haven't made a big fuss over the turn around. I would still like the ability to only emulate 68060 instructions in the fpga though.
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I am doing something different, I'm making sure people know the truth.
Maybe then enough people will refuse to buy it until it's the way it should be done. If not then I'll buy something else.
That is how people put pressure on companies to provide them the services they want. Or are you saying I'm not allowed to do that?
If that is official then I don't see why they haven't made a big fuss over the turn around. I would still like the ability to only emulate 68060 instructions in the fpga though.
First of all, you are spreading bulls**t, not making "people know the truth". Your misinformation is only doing harm (both potential customers, existing user base and the people who work their as**s off for the sake of progression in Amiga community). Whether or not that's a result of your lack of knowledge on the subject or your actions are intentional for some other reason, you are welcome to open IRC client, connect to Freenode server and join #apollo-team channel, and talk directly to the people you accuse of withholding any information.
Second of all, it's not yours to decide who owns whom a "service" of any kind if you are not a party involved. It's not your right to put a "pressure" on anybody unless you paid for something that was falsely advertised. You clearly are not their customer, you never used ANY ApolloCore/Vampire card yourself and still you play a White Knight role of a Social Justice Warrior for other people.
Again.
Step 1. Open IRC client.
Step 2. Connect to Freenode.
Step 3. Join #apollo-team and talk to Majsta, Gunnar, Kipper.
Step 4. Stop spreading your self-righteous bullsh*t.
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Maybe then enough people will refuse to buy it until it's the way it should be done. If not then I'll buy something else.
is this your agenda? to make the people not buy something because you want to buy something else? why dont you do this right away, and tell us if there is a better alternative?
That is how people put pressure on companies to provide them the services they want. Or are you saying I'm not allowed to do that?
it is not a company. it is an initiative composed of volontary members so far. at least thats what i know. do you think you are free to "put pressure" on everyone just in order to deliver you with "services" you expect?
If that is official then I don't see why they haven't made a big fuss over the turn around..
maybe you simply overhear any actual information, while making "big fuss" yourself? you might simply tone down a bit.
I would still like the ability to only emulate 68060 instructions in the fpga though.
why? if actually all instructions are available? i could understand if you asked for an option that fpga core identifies as 060 instead of 040. but why remove instructions in order to be compatible with a cpu that needs libraries to emulate these instructions for compatibility?
however if you insist, why simply not keep the 060. and swap it every time you need physically with another sort of cpu. because next time you will complain that fpga is too fast anyway.
one way or the other i doubt you will stop anyone from buying vampire, its just wasted effort..
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is this your agenda? to make the people not buy something because you want to buy something else? why dont you do this right away, and tell us if there is a better alternative?
It's not about whether there is something better, it's about whether there could be something better if someone realised there were disaffected potential owners of vampire. I don't care which way the dice fall.
it is not a company. it is an initiative composed of volontary members so far. at least thats what i know. do you think you are free to "put pressure" on everyone just in order to deliver you with "services" you expect?
Gunnar has been touting his core as licensable for embedded applications, whether that meets your definition of a company or not is irrelevant. They most certainly want our business.
maybe you simply overhear any actual information, while making "big fuss" yourself?
It's not really overhearing when it's based on information they post online.
why? if actually all instructions are available? i could understand if you asked for an option that fpga core identifies as 060 instead of 040. but why remove instructions in order to be compatible with a cpu that needs libraries to emulate these instructions for compatibility?
You're assuming I want the traps to call code that just runs the equivalent of the original instruction.
however if you insist, why simply not keep the 060. and swap it every time you need physically with another sort of cpu. because next time you will complain that fpga is too fast anyway.
one way or the other i doubt you will stop anyone from buying vampire, its just wasted effort..
060 is too slow, although it would be nice if you could limit the speed of the vampire as well as configure it for different 680x0 compatibility, like exception frames etc. It's just a pity that Gunnar thinks (or thought) that just creating software patches will get him round any hardware incompatibility.
It's my effort, you don't need to worry whether it's wasted.
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It's just a pity that Gunnar thinks (or thought) that just creating software patches will get him round any hardware incompatibility.
Well, in a sense this is in good tradition. CBM also had to come up with software patches to make the Os compatible to the 68040, and third party vendors had to add even more software patches to make it compatible with the 68060. That is nothing I would worry about "too much". It had to happen in the past.
I'm more worried about "removing potential" by Gunnar making design choices of what he believes "is useful" and "what is not useful".
Granted, for the majority of Amiga users, the MMU is "not useful" and the FPU is "not useful", but maybe there are a couple of folks out there that believe that these units can be made good use of here and there.
The current design is not the end of the story, of course, and I don't want to demand too much too early, but the general attitude seems to be that there is "no need for this nonsense", and that type of attitude is probably a bit dangerous.
There are other problems I foresee, as redefining the meaning of some of the Motorola opcodes. The current core puts the 68020 opcodes CALLM/RTM to some completely different use. Again, both instructions are worth nothing on the Amiga, have never been used, and cannot be used productively, but for a "clean room" implementation, I would prefer if the team would stick to the list of opcodes Mot defined in the 68K family guide, and simply trap for instructions that are unsupported, even if unsupported for a reason. The 68030 and up did not support these two (again, for good reason), but that does not mean that this particular opcode "is free for everyone's use". Leave it reserved, do not touch it - it only confuses development software such as debuggers or disassemblers that - with this change - can no longer decide what an opcode means without knowing the host CPU.
Thus, it is really the process how this FPGA core is being developped, not so much the core itself. Gunnar is certainly a very knowledgable guy when it comes to CPU designs, I do not doubt this in any way, but it would certainly help if the team would look a little bit more to the left and right and would understand that some other people (not only me) also have a story to tell for a reason.
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I'm more worried about "removing potential" by Gunnar making design choices of what he believes "is useful" and "what is not useful".
gunnar and his team have proven capacity to reconsider choices, even if not essential, as soon as they appeared to be within reach. may i mention bitfields again?
Granted, for the majority of Amiga users, the MMU is "not useful" and the FPU is "not useful", but maybe there are a couple of folks out there that believe that these units can be made good use of here and there.
i belong to the minority here. however you have seen gunnars roadmap on a1k i believe, where mmu is even mentioned along milesones, even if not as a priority. mpu being an interim solution.
id like to remind tg68k even if it has some 020 instructions hasnt have a mmu as well and none was much annoyed. some other hardware developer is looking at the tematic of fpga cores in poland and neither him considers mmu necessary. thomas, apollo core may not meet yours or mine expectations in some areas, but it doesnt mean its useless..
The current design is not the end of the story, of course, and I don't want to demand too much too early, but the general attitude seems to be that there is "no need for this nonsense", and that type of attitude is probably a bit dangerous.
no. its how you perceive this. people change their opinion. "no need for this nonsense" is a sensible strategy at a given point simply to silence uncountged requests you would have to consider otherwise. i cant even grasp how much endurence has already flown into this project, i cant see anything comparable in the neighbourhood. ths attitude proves to be succesful in their results.
There are other problems I foresee, as redefining the meaning of some of the Motorola opcodes. The current core puts the 68020 opcodes CALLM/RTM to some completely different use. Again, both instructions are worth nothing on the Amiga, have never been used, and cannot be used productively, but for a "clean room" implementation, I would prefer if the team would stick to the list of opcodes Mot defined in the 68K family guide, and simply trap for instructions that are unsupported, even if unsupported for a reason. The 68030 and up did not support these two (again, for good reason), but that does not mean that this particular opcode "is free for everyone's use". Leave it reserved, do not touch it - it only confuses development software such as debuggers or disassemblers that - with this change - can no longer decide what an opcode means without knowing the host CPU.
i understand the aesthetical aspect, that should probably be discussed but i applaud leaving such issues for later in order to spare ressources. if they are going to license the core outside amiga they might be forced to face the issues either way.
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If Apollo wants to do more than Amiga they have to get more conformant. I expect a proper MMU to materialize.
Eventually. Not holding my breath.
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id like to remind tg68k even if it has some 020 instructions hasnt have a mmu as well and none was much annoyed.
Open source cores without a dictator running the show are obviously treated differently. The annoyance isn't that vampire doesn't support an mmu yet, it's the response that we don't need an mmu as gunnar knows best & why are we still going on about it.
The mmu being on the roadmap is good news, however roadmaps are not guarantees and roadmaps are often used just to get people on the hook and then "unavoidable" reasons means it's taken off again. What isn't good news is the comment about possibly charging people for fpu/mmu upgrades.
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Open source cores without a dictator running the show are obviously treated differently. The annoyance isn't that vampire doesn't support an mmu yet, it's the response that we don't need an mmu as gunnar knows best & why are we still going on about it.
The mmu being on the roadmap is good news, however roadmaps are not guarantees and roadmaps are often used just to get people on the hook and then "unavoidable" reasons means it's taken off again. What isn't good news is the comment about possibly charging people for fpu/mmu upgrades.
Please get over yourself and quit trolling this thread. If you don't like the Vampire, then don't buy it. You act like someone is forcing you to get one!
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Please get over yourself and quit trolling this thread. If you don't like the Vampire, then don't buy it. You act like someone is forcing you to get one!
Please get over yourself, I have as much right to say what they don't like about a product as you have to say what you like about it. You're not the boss of me.
I want to buy a good product, but if vampire is not good but a lot of people buy one then I won't get to buy a good product as it won't be worth anyone making one. Just because you lack empathy doesn't mean I will disappear.
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I want to buy a good product, but if vampire is not good but a lot of people buy one then I won't get to buy a good product as it won't be worth anyone making one. Just because you lack empathy doesn't mean I will disappear.
Projects like these should be encouraged in every possible way, even if its not exactly to your liking.
After all, what you're buying is a board with an FPGA on it, the core can be updated with future updates & improvements, which will come.
I hope Vampire sells by the thousands and I'll definitely get more than one once A1200 & A4000 variants come out.
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Projects like these should be encouraged in every possible way, even if its not exactly to your liking.
After all, what you're buying is a board with an FPGA on it, the core can be updated with future updates & improvements, which will come.
I hope Vampire sells by the thousands and I'll definitely get more than one once A1200 & A4000 variants come out.
Amen!
Vampire2 is the best thing happend to my Amiga. Apollo Team needs more love and respect
than they are getting right now!
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@psxphill
i think we all have understood your objections now.
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Please get over yourself, I have as much right to say what they don't like about a product as you have to say what you like about it. You're not the boss of me.
I want to buy a good product, but if vampire is not good but a lot of people buy one then I won't get to buy a good product as it won't be worth anyone making one. Just because you lack empathy doesn't mean I will disappear.
Yes, but you don't have a right to go around spreading false info and bullying people who disagree with you.
I never implied that I was your boss and I doubt you've ever held a job let alone had a boss based on your childish behavior here.
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gunnar and his team have proven capacity to reconsider choices, even if not essential, as soon as they appeared to be within reach. may i mention bitfields again?
You may. Though bitfields were more left out due to a size constraint of the earlier FPGA. It's really a less-used feature and it would have worked equally well to have them emulated in software. May I mention again that I wrote a software emulation for that part? (-:
i understand the aesthetical aspect, that should probably be discussed but i applaud leaving such issues for later in order to spare ressources. if they are going to license the core outside amiga they might be forced to face the issues either way.
It's not the timing aspect I'm worried about. Whether this happens in two months or four years I do not mind so much, and I surely do not press anyone to have this as early as possible.
I'm a bit more worried about the implications on the design, and that - once such an extension is attempted - a lot of the current pipeline architecture probably has to go into the trash, and has to be re-done from scratch. Which approximately explains the enthusiasm by which this unit is approached. It is not like an FPU which can be implemented relatively orthogonal to the rest of the CPU.
Thus, my speculation rather is "If you do not plan for it right in the beginning, it will never appear". The motivation curve is not right. It seems so minor, but it requires many resources. Instead, I hear a lot of voices from the team why "I do not need this" - this gives me a very mood feeling that nothing in this direction will ever materialize because nobody is motivated enough to attempt a radical design change for something that looks "almost complete" and "good enough".
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You may. Though bitfields were more left out due to a size constraint of the earlier FPGA. It's really a less-used feature and it would have worked equally well to have them emulated in software. May I mention again that I wrote a software emulation for that part? (-:
right, however there have been constant uproar and bitching especially on eab because of missling bitfields, movep and whatever else. and some time after it eventually flattened out gunnar simply quietly delivered on it.
It's not the timing aspect I'm worried about. Whether this happens in two months or four years I do not mind so much, and I surely do not press anyone to have this as early as possible.
I'm a bit more worried about the implications on the design, and that - once such an extension is attempted - a lot of the current pipeline architecture probably has to go into the trash, and has to be re-done from scratch. Which approximately explains the enthusiasm by which this unit is approached. It is not like an FPU which can be implemented relatively orthogonal to the rest of the CPU.
Thus, my speculation rather is "If you do not plan for it right in the beginning, it will never appear". The motivation curve is not right. It seems so minor, but it requires many resources. Instead, I hear a lot of voices from the team why "I do not need this" - this gives me a very mood feeling that nothing in this direction will ever materialize because nobody is motivated enough to attempt a radical design change for something that looks "almost complete" and "good enough".
yes. i understand. but the design choices has been made and the problem exists already. it cannot be avoided anymore, it would have to be taken care properly with the same amount of effort independently whether it happens now or later. hammering on this and trying to force shifting their priorities immediately may only waste the project at this point. as you say, gunnar is professional. he may not share your opinion, but he certainly is aware if there is a problem.
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Please get over yourself, I have as much right to say what they don't like about a product as you have to say what you like about it. You're not the boss of me.
I want to buy a good product, but if vampire is not good but a lot of people buy one then I won't get to buy a good product as it won't be worth anyone making one. Just because you lack empathy doesn't mean I will disappear.
You do not solely define "good product". All Vampire owners I have ever read of are very happy with it and recommend it to others. You can say you would use it for this or that and because of that you need a certain missing feature but that does not make it bad. You are not master of universe I assume
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Yes, but you don't have a right to go around spreading false info and bullying people who disagree with you.
I never implied that I was your boss and I doubt you've ever held a job let alone had a boss based on your childish behavior here.
You're judgemental and insulting & you're trying to bully me for not sharing your opinion. Mobbing and then blaming the victim, all non-childish behaviour. If you're allowed to disagree with me and it's ok, but I'm not allowed to disagree with you and it's not then you have serious issues.
I am not spreading false info, I may be saying things that are out of date & I've tried to put everything I've said in that context. However if the out of date info was widely spread and the new info is not, then it is not my fault.
It certainly isn't something that should make you angry, rather than just pointing me to accurate information.
You do not solely define "good product". All Vampire owners I have ever read of are very happy with it and recommend it to others. You can say you would use it for this or that and because of that you need a certain missing feature but that does not make it bad. You are not master of universe I assume
No of course I am not the master of the universe, but I appear to be in the minority who are not be blinkered to the problems it will cause further down the line. Which is why I am trying to make sure that people are aware before getting suckered into recommending it to everyone so that it closes the market. If they then decide to do that it is up to them. The same for people who voted for brexit in the UK and people who voted for Donald Trump in the US. It's often that the majority will screw things over for the minority, when actually the cost to the majority either way is quite small.
I actually find your attitude quite childish as it only considers your own view point and you appear insulted that I have an opposing view point.
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@psxphill (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=6797)
You cannot define for everyone if a product is good or not for everyone else. You can define if it is suitable for your personal needs and if price is ok to you but that also is not valid for everyone else.
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I am not spreading false info, I may be saying things that are out of date & I've tried to put everything I've said in that context. However if the out of date info was widely spread and the new info is not, then it is not my fault.
ignorance may not always be taken as excuse;). especially given your insistence on the issue. i have an impression that you are expecting the "unfriendly overlord" to immediately inform you personally about all his doings and intentions. but there are ways to keep in touch (you have been pointed to, even if you missed on them) and i dont see anything around the project being kept secret on a purpose.
i can only ensure, your doubts are taken seriously ; )
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Could you please move this childish squabble to its own thread someplace else? The thread is supposed to be about majsta's hardware. The bickering is over the Apollo team's software. They may work together, but aren't the same thing. Majsta isn't responsible for Apollo's choices and actions so a "discussion" on Apollo doesn't belong here.
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Could you please move this childish squabble to its own thread someplace else? The thread is supposed to be about majsta's hardware. The bickering is over the Apollo team's software. They may work together, but aren't the same thing. Majsta isn't responsible for Apollo's choices and actions so a "discussion" on Apollo doesn't belong here.
(http://www.thegeeksclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/185248_10150348916921729_20531316728_9500420_1221014_n.jpg)
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Could you please move this childish squabble to its own thread someplace else? The thread is supposed to be about majsta's hardware. The bickering is over the Apollo team's software. They may work together, but aren't the same thing. Majsta isn't responsible for Apollo's choices and actions so a "discussion" on Apollo doesn't belong here.
+1
This is one of the reasons that I float on the periphery of the community. Of all the retro machines, the Amiga seems to be the one that attracts the most vitriol. I have no explanation why.
Personally, I find the Vampire project very exciting indeed and look forward to them becoming more widely available so I can get one :) .
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There is an old saying "you can't please everyone"
In the Amiga scene you can deliver an AI with a Quantum CPU, and holographic display the size of a shoebox for $150 and folks would still complain about it..
The Vampire isn't such a device but it's as good as we got right now.
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There is an old saying "you can't please everyone"
In the Amiga scene you can deliver an AI with a Quantum CPU, and holographic display the size of a shoebox for $150 and folks would still complain about it..
The Vampire isn't such a device but it's as good as we got right now.
And it's bringing a lot of folks back into the community. I have an Amiga 600 sitting on my desk now because of the Vampire 2. Last Amiga hardware I owned was back in the 90s. As soon as I saw the Vampire 2 in action I knew I had to pick up a 600.
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i have an impression that you are expecting the "unfriendly overlord" to immediately inform you personally about all his doings and intentions.
I don't expect that, but after saying he wasn't going to do a compatible fpu and mmu so publicly nobody can expect everyone to know if he's changed his mind unless he publicises it so much.
The bickering is over the Apollo team's software. They may work together, but aren't the same thing.
I apologise if I missed the announcement that you could buy one without the other, which would be the only explanation for your comment.
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I apologise if I missed the announcement that you could buy one without the other, which would be the only explanation for your comment.
Try applying reading comprehension to the part of my post you conveniently forgot to quote. Repeating below in smaller words in case it was missed the first time.
Majsta makes hardware that happens to use the Apollo core. It didn't always. Majsta has no control over what the Apollo team does. Complaining about the work of someone else in a thread about majsta's hardware isn't fair. It certainly doesn't belong in the marketplace.
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As a Vampire 2 owner, I have to say its the best hardware addition Ive purchased in the Amiga realm. Im sure people like Mech will say "hah, a pimped up A4000 will still blow the V600/500 out of the water!", and thats fine.
My last Amiga expirience was A1200 with 030 accelerator and 2+16 megs of ram.
It was a decent enough machine, but the V600 is a whole different ballgame
The userexpirience is amazing, and I cant praise the Apollo Team enough.
Yes, I would love to be able to avoid having to use a Scart cable to view non-RTG screens, and some programs require FPU, but we all know its a work in progress project.
I think Skipp604 said it best;
If you are ACTUALLY curious about the FACTS, join IRC. You spend so much time here arguing "truths", instead of going directly to the source. Its almost like you dont WANT to know the truth.
Apollo Team is very approachable when they are active on IRC, and it seems like they are around more or less every day.
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The bickering is over the Apollo team's software.
It's not software! :laughing:
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If you are ACTUALLY curious about the FACTS, join IRC. You spend so much time here arguing "truths", instead of going directly to the source. Its almost like you dont WANT to know the truth.
Apollo Team is very approachable when they are active on IRC, and it seems like they are around more or less every day.
I did this, and got a little wiser. It started out with everyone joking about me not understanding "the obvious", then turned around to nobody except Gunnar understanding "the obvious", which suddenly wasn't so "obvious" for the rest after all, which prompted Gunnar to go into eye-rolling tea-spoon mode and actually provide answers that "normal people" can grasp. During this, I endured being called an idiot and various other less flattering things, something I long ago learned to take as signs of being on the right course in this crazy community. :lol:
I wanted to know about the 080 FPU and how users are supposed to relate to it. Given the choice of a piece of software coming in 020+882, 040 or 060 variants, which is more ideal for AC-68080? Answer: 040 or 060 - it doesn't matter much which. Given a piece of software does not support FPU or comes in 020+881/882, your mileage may vary, there will be "software that takes care of it", and how well that works depends on the functions at hand. "The software" will apparently be in ROM, though it is unclear for me what that means - I think not in kickstart, but rather something "closer" to the FPGA. (At this point we also learned that the 68882 is not really an FPU, but rather just a chip that runs a whole lot of microcode - software in ROM, providing an FPU interface, what we know as 68882, but whatever). Then there was a "but" and a small rant about awesomeness of the new stuff that will be in the FPU, but as someone who is more concerned with how well ancient utility software will work rather than playing media files (I have more than half a dozen devices that will do that so vastly much better than any Amiga will ever do anyways) I just zoned out. Oh, and the "regular" 68040.library will be redundant.
Next for me would be to ask about MMU, as new fast m68k hardware for Linux and BSD is very much sought after, believe it or not. People may think sticking with AmigaOS on m68k is crazy, but how about those of us who stick with m68k for Linux and BSD, despite all the other hardware we can run that on? We are f*ckin lunatics in comparison. Right? :laughing:
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IAt this point we also learned that the 68882 is not really an FPU, but rather just a chip that runs a whole lot of microcode - software in ROM, providing an FPU interface, what we know as 68882, but whatever.
Funny. So the 68K is not a real CPU, but rather a chip that provides a CPU interface and runs all of its functions on microcode from an internal ROM, emulating a CPU?
Actually, that's pretty much what it really does, yes, but it still makes a good CPU. Many contemporary CPUs of its time actually worked this way, including the Z80 for example.
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It's not software! :laughing:
It is software, by every definition. It's not a sequentially executed language like you feed CPU's & DSP's.
Apollo is software and more importantly it's an emulator, it happens to be a not very accurate one but that is by design.
your mileage may vary, there will be "software that takes care of it",
That is the standard line, it Apollo can't run exec.library then someone can just patch it or write a new one.
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What is exec.library? Where is that and for what purpose is used?
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It is software, by every definition. It's not a sequentially executed language like you feed CPU's & DSP's.
Apollo is software and more importantly it's an emulator, it happens to be a not very accurate one but that is by design.
That is the standard line, it Apollo can't run exec.library then someone can just patch it or write a new one.
So which of the instructions, address-modes do you believe are flawed.
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=instructions
Or specific programs which don't work.
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What is exec.library? Where is that and for what purpose is used?
Its one of the kickstart modules, a kernel so to say, but id expect you to know that better than me;)..
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@psxphill :
Please, stop spreading so much non sens. I have a vampire in my 600 and I have often uptimes as long as 30 hours, without rebooting, listening web radio, chatting on IRC with the team and using Ibrowse. This is something that my good old A4000 can't achieve. That's right, my vampire system is far more stable that my A4000 with cyberstorm 060. I think this is not bad at all for surch a non compatible CPU.... Or maybe is the 68080 more compatible with the 68k range than an 060 ? Guess what, buy yourself a vampire, make somes testing, and only after that come back and give us you opinion. Until then, this is just non sens.
Bye.
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@wawrzon (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=5312) :P
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Apollo is software and more importantly it's an emulator, it happens to be a not very accurate one but that is by design.
okay. but have you asked yourself, do this statements contribute anything useful to the effort or at least discussion? because if not, then stated once, we know your position on the subject. does that matter if one calls fpga or microcode "emulation"? especially as long as it reaches its goal? and if not, being "inacurate" its a field for improvment, that apparently is both possible and considered.
the actual problem would arise if there was no argumentation on thes subject allowed, or the issue was denied, but ist isnt the case, at least in my book.
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It is software, by every definition. It's not a sequentially executed language like you feed CPU's & DSP's.
Then a sheet of paper coming out of a printer is software too.
Apollo is software and more importantly it's an emulator, it happens to be a not very accurate one but that is by design.
And the sheets of papers coming out of a printer are merely book emulators.
That is the standard line, it Apollo can't run exec.library then someone can just patch it or write a new one.
You are aware that most Amiga models have their own exec.library variants already?
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Light bulbs - emulating candles for more than 200 years.
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That's right, my vampire system is far more stable that my A4000 with cyberstorm 060.
Sure it's better running some software, it unfortunately doesn't run the software I want to run so I won't buy one until it does. It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD, Amix or Shapeshifter with TurboEVD video driver.
Then a sheet of paper coming out of a printer is software too.
No, paper is neither software nor hardware. But thanks for the straw man.
and if not, being "inacurate" its a field for improvment, that apparently is both possible and considered.
the actual problem would arise if there was no argumentation on thes subject allowed, or the issue was denied, but ist isnt the case, at least in my book.
Actually no discussion is allowed by people here and the issues are denied, the fanboi's won't let anything be said that isn't 100% positive. It's not just me who shares the same issues with Apollo.
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You are aware that most Amiga models have their own exec.library variants already?
That's a pretty misleading statement. What is different is not exec, but the bootstrap code that initializes motherboard memory. Actually, parts of expansion are also system-dependent, due to a compile-time variable.
The difference is that all these variants of exec - those CBM made - are configuration options of a single source code, and can hence be maintained jointly, i.e. fix a bug in the source code, get all versions fixed at once.
This is not true for external patches or replacements. It is really a matter of software deployment than a matter of "how many versions exist".
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Sure it's better running some software, it unfortunately doesn't run the software I want to run so I won't buy one. It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD or Amix.
That's certainly correct, but one should also accept that just for this particular purpose, better hardware exist. My PC runs BSD just fine, so it's hard to justify the requirement. I do get your point, of course.
Concerning the software vs. hardware discussion: That's simply childish. As long as it runs my software, I do not care how I call the implementation. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it is a duck.
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Sure it's better running some software, it unfortunately doesn't run the software I want to run so I won't buy one until it does. It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD, Amix or Shapeshifter with TurboEVD video driver.
No, paper is neither software nor hardware. But thanks for the straw man.
Actually no discussion is allowed by people here and the issues are denied, the fanboi's won't let anything be said that isn't 100% positive. It's not just me who shares the same issues with Apollo.
Ok lets discuss.
Lets start with a simple question. Which Amiga do you own.
So which specific part of the Apollo-Core do you believe to be defective or feature missing.
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Sure it's better running some software, it unfortunately doesn't run the software I want to run so I won't buy one until it does. It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD, Amix or Shapeshifter with TurboEVD video driver.
So your argument is that because the Apollo core doesn't currently run those non-Amiga operating systems people shouldn't buy Amiga accelerators that use the Apollo core. Does your argument also apply to all the other Accelerators using Motorola/Freescale CPUs without MMUs? Are they all incompatible/inaccurate too? Do you also go on Unix and BSD forums telling them not to buy x86 hardware as it can't run Amiga OS without emulation or classic Mac forums telling them their machines are useless because they don't have a the custom chips to play Amiga games natively?
I'm not sure you're argument will win over many people since the "failings" of the current Apollo core would seem to be insignificant to the vast amount of Amiga users who probably have no interest in running the software you want to.
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This feels like kindergarten...
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That's a pretty misleading statement. What is different is not exec, but the bootstrap code that initializes motherboard memory. Actually, parts of expansion are also system-dependent, due to a compile-time variable.
Sure, and how is the Vampire different in this context? I wrote _variants_, not versions.
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It would run 0 hours with Amiga BSD, Amix or Shapeshifter with TurboEVD video driver.
Amiga BSD?
No, paper is neither software nor hardware. But thanks for the straw man.
Clearly a sheet of paper i hardware. Postscript is an example of a language that is used to describe how the print on the paper will be. Same for 3D printing, you program the model. Same for FPGA, you program the layout. You only need to run the programming once to get a sheet of printed paper done and ready for reading. You only need to run the programming once to get a 3D print done and ready for use. You only need to run the programming once to get an FPGA done and ready for use. The software (the "core") is only there to tell the FPGA how to lay out its gates, after that is done, the "software" is strictly no longer needed.
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For what it is worth - the Minimig runs uCLinux and Minix, I haven't tried them on the MIST, may do that over this weekend, just for show.
Oh, and MIST runs Aminix, iirc.
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Clearly a sheet of paper i hardware. Postscript is an example of a language that is used to describe how the print on the paper will be. Same for 3D printing, you program the model. Same for FPGA, you program the layout.
You don't program the layout in FPGA, you configure switches. Which is what software is, a configuration of switches. The switches are volatile therefore the configuration is software, if you put it in an ASIC then it's hardware. There is a convention that if the software is executed from flash memory then it's called firmware (all firmware is software, not all software is firmware).
Postscript is software, it's passed through other layers of software and finally configures the print hardware. The paper is just passing by when this happens, the closest CS description for it would be a "storage medium".
So your argument is that because the Apollo core doesn't currently run those non-Amiga operating systems people shouldn't buy Amiga accelerators that use the Apollo core.
I'm pretty sure I haven't said people shouldn't buy anything. Those are three applications from the top of my head that would really use a faster cpu. There are other applications that require an MMU and FPU, but those in particular would be much harder for any software patching schemes to deal with.
Does your argument also apply to all the other Accelerators using Motorola/Freescale CPUs without MMUs?
If people want to choose to buy an accelerator without an MMU it's up to them, the problem is that Gunnar and all you fanboi's are saying that because you don't see a need for an mmu then I deserve to be mobbed for saying I do. Then after that childish behaviour you all then try to shut down any logical discussion with more mobbing and victim blaming.
Are they all incompatible/inaccurate too?
The incompatible and inaccuracy in Apollo is nothing to do with the MMU, so no.
Do you also go on Unix and BSD forums telling them not to buy x86 hardware as it can't run Amiga OS without emulation or classic Mac forums telling them their machines are useless because they don't have a the custom chips to play Amiga games natively?
Childish strawman.
I'm not sure you're argument will win over many people since the "failings" of the current Apollo core would seem to be insignificant to the vast amount of Amiga users who probably have no interest in running the software you want to.
Sure there are people who will vote for Donald Trump the same way a lot of people voted for Putin in the rigged elections and a lot of people screwed the UK's future by voting for Brexit. But being on the popular side is not the same as being on the right side, but you wouldn't understand as you just want to get in on the mobbing.
Ok lets discuss.
Lets start with a simple question. Which Amiga do you own.
So which specific part of the Apollo-Core do you believe to be defective or feature missing.
I own three A1200's, an a500 and an a500+ (I sold my A1500 a couple of years ago). I've got a phase 5 030/50 card in my A1200 with scsi and 48mb of ram and 2(ish) gb ide hard drive. For the a500 I've got a 28mhz 68000 and trifecta 250mb scsi drive.
Apollo is missing the fpu and mmu & the exception frames/what instructions it supports don't match any existing 680x0 design. While I understand that the mmu and fpu haven't been implemented yet, Gunnar was quite clear at the start that he has no intentions of ever providing a 100% accurate implementation of them. None of the statements made since give any indication that he has changed his mind, only that any issues will be dealt with by software. Which is fine for a lot of people, as you're so desperate to get anything that you'll accept what he says without question. So desperate in fact that any negative discussion is met with pure hostility, in case it upsets Gunnar & he leaves with his closed source core.
I just think it's all a real shame.
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I've a dream...a Vampire dream...V1200 with more than 512MB of RAM :banana:
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You don't program the layout in FPGA, you configure switches.
I would say that organising the switches, or rather, the gates, in a certain way constitutes a "layout".
Which is what software is, a configuration of switches. The switches are volatile therefore the configuration is software, if you put it in an ASIC then it's hardware.
And non-volatile FPGAs? How do they fit into this?
Postscript is software, it's passed through other layers of software and finally configures the print hardware. The paper is just passing by when this happens, the closest CS description for it would be a "storage medium".
And an FPGA can also be a storage medium.
fanboi's
That is not how plural is done.
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I've a dream...a Vampire dream...V1200 with more than 512MB of RAM :banana:
An A1200 with 4gb of ram (with holes cut out dynamically for rom/io etc) with all of it available as chip ram would be cool.
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actually this offtopic should be branched out from the genuine thread. i propose to call it "psxphill vs the rest of the world" ;)
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Given the mission statement:
"Apollo Core 68080 is the natural and modern evolution of latest 68000 processors. It's 100% code compatible, corrects bugs of 680x0 designs and adds on top most of the cool features which were invented the years after."
I can't see why the MMU & FPU would be any different when released, base on what has already been delivered.
So unless you have a Crystal Ball an know how the MMU implementation will perform, how can you comment? Please deal with facts not rumour or interpretation of the facts.
I can see why the MMU is towards the bottom of the priority list as the things in the Amiga world which require it are small.
Enforcer
Gigamem
Fusion and Shapeshifter emulators (TurboEVD 618 downloads in 19 years Aminet)
Amix or NetBSD
kickstart to fastmem type tools
Your analogy for the "popular side is not the same as being on the right side" is flawed, so does that make members of Nazis & religious fundamental groups are they on the right side?
Is anything 100% perfect. No but does software 680000 run on the 010,020,030,040,060 in the main yes.
Are BigGunn, Kipper2k and majsta Evil Overlords, that's a bit on the harsh side. Just because someone does agree with your vision of how the universe should be doesn't make them bad people.
I would like to see the 600 vampire V3 with a newer cheaper Cyclone FPGA, SODIMM memory slots, USB, Ethernet & Mini-PCIE. but I understand its not Lego to design and requires time and money which as this is not a commercial business this is not likely the happen any time soon.
The Vampire is the only reason why after 15 years of selling my Amiga 4000, I bought a 600 and wait for that golden ticket (email) from Kipper to purchase one.
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@psxphill you could join us and integrate all of that or whatever it is that you are proposing, doors for beta testers, developers are opened. We didn't reject anyone, and everyone is welcomed to the team. If you think that you can do better please join us we are always seeking help. Regarding ASIC if you have tools and knowledge to modify core so we can build ASIC you are also welcomed, also if you have the money or organization to finance that. If there is also something on the cards that you don't like also that could be subject of change. But this topic is not about development of the cards, someone opened it for ebay sales. Just to confirm, this is biggest fraud ever and no one should buy any of those vampire cards because I m paying to the people to promote it, in fact cards don't exists those are 3D models and also all of those videos are fake. Also Apollo core don't exist no one has seen it in action yet. What I m doing is special secret. I m using FPGA, cut it then inside that plastic I put MC68060 and then speed it up by adding special liquid glue. At the moment I have blocked MMU and FPU but there is a way to activate them by few drops of salt water. Tutorial about that I ll wrote next year. Ah and I forgot, with the money I collect from those sales my plan is to buy brand new TV and watch picture in technicolor. Now let's get serious. I ll take a money and buy myself brand new PC with windows OMG I would like to have that. I want TV with possibility to connect it to cable and then use that cable to wash dishes, is there such thing? I have seen somewhere that this could be done. Someone did it back in 2021 I think. It is easy you plugin TV then use aluminum foil as an antenna cable and put it into water. You need to buy special water from my account on ebay, it is the same water like any other but this one is expensive because it is mine and if you want to become yours you need to buy it from me. Then you put that water into TV, and then use cable from copper also you can get it from me on ebay, then you connect that copper to that aluminum foil and then to water and then and only then you can wash dishes with your TV. I can sell you also tutorial for this, but tutorial don't support it all, you need to enter key on the paper and then next page will turn. You can also buy that key from me then you need to send that key to one man so he can read it for you. I can tell you who that man is but you need to pay in advance. :roflmao:
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@psxphill you could join us and integrate all of that or whatever it is that you are proposing, doors for beta testers, developers are opened. We didn't reject anyone, and everyone is welcomed to the team. If you think that you can do better please join us we are always seeking help. Regarding ASIC if you have tools and knowledge to modify core so we can build ASIC you are also welcomed, also if you have the money or organization to finance that. If there is also something on the cards that you don't like also that could be subject of change. But this topic is not about development of the cards, someone opened it for ebay sales. Just to confirm, this is biggest fraud ever and no one should buy any of those vampire cards because I m paying to the people to promote it, in fact cards don't exists those are 3D models and also all of those videos are fake. Also Apollo core don't exist no one has seen it in action yet. What I m doing is special secret. I m using FPGA, cut it then inside that plastic I put MC68060 and then speed it up by adding special liquid glue. At the moment I have blocked MMU and FPU but there is a way to activate them by few drops of salt water. Tutorial about that I ll wrote next year. Ah and I forgot, with the money I collect from those sales my plan is to buy brand new TV and watch picture in technicolor. Now let's get serious. I ll take a money and buy myself brand new PC with windows OMG I would like to have that. I want TV with possibility to connect it to cable and then use that cable to wash dishes, is there such thing? I have seen somewhere that this could be done. Someone did it back in 2021 I think. It is easy you plugin TV then use aluminum foil as an antenna cable and put it into water. You need to buy special water from my account on ebay, it is the same water like any other but this one is expensive because it is mine and if you want to become yours you need to buy it from me. Then you put that water into TV, and then use cable from copper also you can get it from me on ebay, then you connect that copper to that aluminum foil and then to water and then and only then you can wash dishes with your TV. I can sell you also tutorial for this, but tutorial don't support it all, you need to enter key on the paper and then next page will turn. You can also buy that key from me then you need to send that key to one man so he can read it. I can tell you who that man is but you need to pay in advance. :rofl:
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does that make members of Nazis & religious fundamental groups are they on the right side?
Yeah, the extreme right side :hammer:
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@psxphill you could join us and integrate all of that or whatever it is that you are proposing, doors for beta testers, developers are opened. We didn't reject anyone, and everyone is welcomed to the team. If you think that you can do better please join us we are always seeking help. Regarding ASIC if you have tools and knowledge to modify core so we can build ASIC you are also welcomed, also if you have the money or organization to finance that. If there is also something on the cards that you don't like also that could be subject of change. But this topic is not about development of the cards, someone opened it for ebay sales. Just to confirm, this is biggest fraud ever and no one should buy any of those vampire cards because I m paying to the people to promote it, in fact cards don't exists those are 3D models and also all of those videos are fake. Also Apollo core don't exist no one has seen it in action yet. What I m doing is special secret. I m using FPGA, cut it then inside that plastic I put MC68060 and then speed it up by adding special liquid glue. At the moment I have blocked MMU and FPU but there is a way to activate them by few drops of salt water. Tutorial about that I ll wrote next year. Ah and I forgot, with the money I collect from those sales my plan is to buy brand new TV and watch picture in technicolor. Now let's get serious. I ll take a money and buy myself brand new PC with windows OMG I would like to have that. I want TV with possibility to connect it to cable and then use that cable to wash dishes, is there such thing? I have seen somewhere that this could be done. Someone did it back in 2021 I think. It is easy you plugin TV then use aluminum foil as an antenna cable and put it into water. You need to buy special water from my account on ebay, it is the same water like any other but this one is expensive because it is mine and if you want to become yours you need to buy it from me. Then you put that water into TV, and then use cable from copper also you can get it from me on ebay, then you connect that copper to that aluminum foil and then to water and then and only then you can wash dishes with your TV. I can sell you also tutorial for this, but tutorial don't support it all, you need to enter key on the paper and then next page will turn. You can also buy that key from me then you need to send that key to one man so he can read it for you. I can tell you who that man is but you need to pay in advance. :roflmao:
Sorry I misspelled your name in the thread title :-(, but I'm happy your getting some return on your investment of time and money. The thread sort of took off in a direction I had not anticipated. Good luck with future sales, I was going to get the 500 version, but I use my A1200 more so I'll probably wait for the A1200 version :-).
PS. If you have some of that special glue/salt water left I'll give it try on my 68010 A500!!
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Sure, and how is the Vampire different in this context? I wrote _variants_, not versions.
I believe I already gave the answer. Here it is again: The original CBM exec versions (or variants, if you prefer) all all based on the same source code, and hence can be maintained jointly. It is, as said, a software maintenance issue, not a general issue.
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I believe I already gave the answer. Here it is again: The original CBM exec versions (or variants, if you prefer) all all based on the same source code, and hence can be maintained jointly. It is, as said, a software maintenance issue, not a general issue.
ah, here is it.. i already wondered what you are going about on a1k. so the issue is that the features of apollo core need (in your eyes) to be officially supported rather than patched in. and gues who has the access to the source code and who actually claims the right to distribute it.
btw. there is exec replacement, fully open with all the sources. it may be a bit slower in few operations. guess where to look for it :)
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ah, here is it.. i already wondered what you are going about on a1k. so the issue is that the features of apollo core need (in your eyes) to be officially supported rather than patched in. and gues who has the access to the source code and who actually claims the right to distribute it.
Not really. The problem is to find a way to handle the vampire *despite* the copyright situation of exec. Actually, if you look back, it was also possible to support the 68060 on AmigaOs, even though exec does not support this CPU.
Hence, if done correctly, there is no need to fiddle with the exec sources at all, or to provide alternative exec sources. A processor library is all it takes - provided the CPU has the necessary properties.
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Not really. The problem is to find a way to handle the vampire *despite* the copyright situation of exec. Actually, if you look back, it was also possible to support the 68060 on AmigaOs, even though exec does not support this CPU.
Hence, if done correctly, there is no need to fiddle with the exec sources at all, or to provide alternative exec sources. A processor library is all it takes - provided the CPU has the necessary properties.
so would be a case of replacing the 040 & 060 libraries with Apollo specific or a new 080 lib
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so would be a case of replacing the 040 & 060 libraries with Apollo specific or a new 080 lib
Yes, indeed.
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A processor library is all it takes.
aha. ist also in eigener sache. das ist eher vertretbar. ist aber eine sache der vereinbarung zwischen dir und apollo team. wir haben da keine mitsprache..
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@spaceman88 here is best tutorial I have published 3 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2RdbMzfQw
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aha. ist also in eigener sache. das ist eher vertretbar. ist aber eine sache der vereinbarung zwischen dir und apollo team. wir haben da keine mitsprache..
sorrx. have not noticed i answered in german. the essenz here is that even with os sources itself not being the subject the support for the apollo cpu with thors mmu libs are not the subject we can enforce, but rather a subject to agreement between thor and apollo team.
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Not really. The problem is to find a way to handle the vampire *despite* the copyright situation of exec. Actually, if you look back, it was also possible to support the 68060 on AmigaOs, even though exec does not support this CPU.
Hence, if done correctly, there is no need to fiddle with the exec sources at all, or to provide alternative exec sources. A processor library is all it takes - provided the CPU has the necessary properties.
If the vampire FPU, all the exceptions stack frames etc are compatible with the 060 then we already have the software. If you are running old software then the new mmx registers don't need to be saved, obviously task switching would need to be patched to save/restore the registers if you're running new software (like fpu register saving is already patched when an fpu is detected). It may be possible (and even desirable) to include that in the applications that use mmx, to reduce overhead on all task switches. We already have software for fast patching of instructions missing in the 060 as well.
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Yes, indeed.
But a new cpu library has specifically been said will _not_ be needed :)
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@spaceman88 here is best tutorial I have published 3 years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r2RdbMzfQw
:-)
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But a new cpu library has specifically been said will _not_ be needed :)
Well, and how do you suppose the extended registers will be saved?
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If the vampire FPU, all the exceptions stack frames etc are compatible with the 060 then we already have the software.
Exception stack frames are and FPU will be compatible with the 040. Contrary to 040 and 060 no instructions need to be trapped. For 882-only instructions there will be essentially what is inside the 040.library for FPU-emulation of those complex FPU-instructions but this will be inside a ROM where it can't be overwritten. Thus, the FPU will appear as being 882-compatible directly after power-on with no libs loaded. However, 040-FPU-code will execute faster than code compiled for 882 as it avoids the internal trapping mechanism.
All in all the 080 is far more compatible than any of 040 or 060.
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Exception stack frames are and FPU will be compatible with the 040. Contrary to 040 and 060 no instructions need to be trapped. For 882-only instructions there will be essentially what is inside the 040.library for FPU-emulation of those complex FPU-instructions but this will be inside a ROM where it can't be overwritten.
If no instructions are trapped, what is the ROM good for if not for trapping the instructions? Ok, the mechanism is probably not a 68K trap in the strict sense, but why does that make any difference.
I just remember the uproar when Phase5 dared to put their 68060.library into ROM... a RAM-based library is more flexible, and simpler to replace in case of bugs. (Says me, who had bugs in 10 year old code of my 68060.library). Thus, the FPU will appear as being 882-compatible directly after power-on with no libs loaded. However, 040-FPU-code will execute faster than code compiled for 882 as it avoids the internal trapping mechanism.
Huh, and then how does the CPU reach the ROM code? Why does it make a difference whether the CPU takes a "regular exception vector" or some "hidden vector" in terms of performance or compatibility? All in all the 080 is far more compatible than any of 040 or 060.
Really? Just because you put something in ROM that was otherwise in RAM? Sounds like a strange argument to me. Instead, you introduce a potential source of problem with having more registers that somehow have to be saved and restored on a context switch when they are used.
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I just remember the uproar when Phase5 dared to put their 68060.library into ROM... a RAM-based library is more flexible, and simpler to replace in case of bugs
You are completely unaware of the reality...
Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...
When you use a car, you don't want to add some stuff into the motor to drive away... You want only a turn-key & start...
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You are completely unaware of the reality...
Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...
When you use a car, you don't want to add some stuff into the motor to drive away... You want only a turn-key & start...
Your sort of right, as an end user i just want to get in my car and drive from Manchester to London and I don't care how my engine work, but if my Sat Nav wants to go via Edinburgh then I would be interested in the reasons why.
I think the Apollo Team and Thomas could have a long discussion, off line on the merits and pit falls of each method.
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Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...
I prefer upgradeability over startup speed. I don't part having part of an OS loaded from (SSD) disk.
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All in all the 080 is far more compatible than any of 040 or 060.
It is impossible to be more compatible with an 040 than an 040, any deviation from an 040 makes it less compatible. It might run software that wouldn't run on an 040, but that is a different thing. oxypatcher/cyberpatcher/etc already solved the problem of emulated instructions years ago. So being more compatible in your sense isn't even true.
I've many years experience in emulation and one of the things I've found is that it sounds great to make one thing emulate more than one thing (i.e. a cpu that can run 030, 040 & 060 software), but you eventually run into problems and split it out. Or at least you do if you have the source, or the developer with the source cares about your issue.
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It is impossible to be more compatible with an 040 than an 040, any deviation from an 040 makes it less compatible. It might run software that wouldn't run on an 040, but that is a different thing. oxypatcher/cyberpatcher/etc already solved the problem of emulated instructions years ago. So being more compatible in your sense isn't even true.
I've many years experience in emulation and one of the things I've found is that it sounds great to make one thing emulate more than one thing (i.e. a cpu that can run 030, 040 & 060 software), but you eventually run into problems and split it out. Or at least you do if you have the source, or the developer with the source cares about your issue.
Not to mention the lack of an FPU and MMU makes any software expecting either crash. Also the piles of old games which don't require either which crash on the Vampire.
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Not to mention the lack of an FPU and MMU makes any software expecting either crash. Also the piles of old games which don't require either which crash on the Vampire.
At the moment the quickest way to test program compatibility is WinUAE. Set 68EC040 ( nofpu / nommu ), JIT on, enable "do not wait blitter" and add 128MB z3 memory. In addition, you can install the P96/UAEgfx, if it is not floppy or whdload test.
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Do these games crash on a real 040
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Do these games crash on a real 040
Hard to find EC model which can run extreme speed for comparison.
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Hard to find EC model which can run extreme speed for comparison.
"extreme speed" not a game i recognise, are you saying it doesn't run on a real 040 \040ec
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"extreme speed" not a game i recognise, are you saying it doesn't run on a real 040 \040ec
Some games/demos timing goes bad when running extreme speed. 040\040ec is not most widely used platform for games http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34854
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Some games/demos timing goes bad when running extreme speed. 040\040ec is not most widely used platform for games http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34854
I found the 28mhz 68000 was pretty good for old games. Although the switch on the back which could instantly slow it back to 7mhz was useful when there was an issue. Some demos were improved by running at 28mhz, at some point I need to resurrect that system. Of course the benefit is that it's using 68000 exception frames and instruction decoding. If you could switch between different cpu compatibility then it would be awesome. Is move sr privileged on the Apollo core?
Old games would usually be running from chip ram, so they shouldn't be running drastically faster anyway. Unless it's not waiting for the caches to be enabled.
Doesn't whdload solve all the issues running on an 040 though, how well is that running on Apollo?
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I found the 28mhz 68000 was pretty good for old games. Although the switch on the back which could instantly slow it back to 7mhz was useful when there was an issue. Some demos were improved by running at 28mhz, at some point I need to resurrect that system. Of course the benefit is that it's using 68000 exception frames and instruction decoding. If you could switch between different cpu compatibility then it would be awesome. Is move sr privileged on the Apollo core?
Old games would usually be running from chip ram, so they shouldn't be running drastically faster anyway. Unless it's not waiting for the caches to be enabled.
Doesn't whdload solve all the issues running on an 040 though, how well is that running on Apollo?
I believe was talk of turn off the vampire but its was all (cpu,mem,vid)on or off
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It is impossible to be more compatible with an 040 than an 040, any deviation from an 040 makes it less compatible. It might run software that wouldn't run on an 040, but that is a different thing. oxypatcher/cyberpatcher/etc already solved the problem of emulated instructions years ago. So being more compatible in your sense isn't even true.
What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly. FPU instructions which existed on the m68881 / m68882 but not on the m68040 can be built in to the FPGA, so exception traps don't need to run (which are much slower). Likewise, there'd be no sense in installing trap handlers for instructions missing in the m68060 if one had reasons to pretend to have an '060.
While a ROM and/or library can be loaded for trap handling (so from the OS point of view you're running as if you're on a real m68040), the code would just never get used. You could have complete systems which could move between a real m68k processor and an FPGA emulated superset processor without any compatibility issues.
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What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly. FPU instructions which existed on the m68881 / m68882 but not on the m68040 can be built in to the FPGA, so exception traps don't need to run (which are much slower).
Actually, what was said above was "to implement in a ROM", which can mean several things.
Seriously, transcendental functions in FPGA are no fun. Nobody sane in his mind would implement them directly in the core. The 68881/82 didn't do that either, it was rather a microcode implemented cordic algorithm which run the computation.
Whether this is the path that will be followed, or wether a software emulaton in 68K assembly will be used remained pretty much untold.
Besides, the problem is only partially the trap. The problem is that the trap and the emulation is in supervisor mode, which inhibits multitasking.
While a ROM and/or library can be loaded for trap handling (so from the OS point of view you're running as if you're on a real m68040), the code would just never get used.
Well, there is supposed to be a ROM, but whether that ROM includes an emulation in 68K assembly or microcode to implement the functions remains to me unclear at this point. If that's just 68K code, I don't see in how far this provides an advantage over the current library implementation.
You could have complete systems which could move between a real m68k processor and an FPGA emulated superset processor without any compatibility issues.
It depends on what you want. For me, this sounds satisfactory, but the point might actually be to depend precisely on the trapping. I do not know whether there is any software which uses this as a side effect. Seems a bit strange at least.
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The SAGA core implements a memory protection unit for both the CPU and itself. It's simpler than an MMU but is already roughly equivalent to Mungwall.
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What's being referred to here, I believe, is the option of being able to implement all instructions directly.
Is it an option? Or is it enforced?
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You are completely unaware of the reality...
Users want a computer easy to start = plug & play, all in rom...
Hey, I do not want that at all.
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Hey, I do not want that at all.
Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !
Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...
You have a brain, you don't use it : I cannot do anything for you...
(Good translators : how to convert from french to english : "Plus c'est simple à comprendre et moins tu comprends" ?)
(More it's easier to understand and less you understand ? Correct ??)
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Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...
Most games ignored the rom apart from reading the bootblock, but if you did anything with workbench then you needed to load a lot of things that weren't in rom.
IMO a flash chip with kickstart and a writable file system would be the best approach moving forward. ROM is kinda limited, you can't update it.
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Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !
Watch the Amiga 500, the PSOne, the N64... All these machines had great success with all the required stuff in rom...
You have a brain, you don't use it : I cannot do anything for you...
I don't mind being stupid, as long as I am not arrogant.
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It would be really great if we had some press release from the developers of when the v2 vampire will be available. Talking about the technology is fine, but very few people are able to run this due to board shortage.
I had the v1 vampire and that board was available but there was not a lot of interest. Im very excited to see who far they have come. From what I read it looks great! The a500/2000 market is the biggest market share imho. I think hundreds and potentially a couple thousand units could be sold.
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Kolla, you are an idiot like TR, so shut up !
Whatever, I am used to being called an idiot by now.
Dance for me, you arrogant little clown :laughing: