Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: redrumloa on August 25, 2009, 01:40:35 PM
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The cat is officially out of the bag!
It was announced here.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.a1k.org%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D16679%26page%3D14&lp=de_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
Translated from German.
Support of two monitors!
Now two Indivision ECS can be put one on the other, in order to operate at the same time two monitors. Because each Indivision has its own bit map memory, exists now the possibility of indicating two different screens at the same time.
Pics:
http://www.a1k.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18434&d=1251191336
http://www.a1k.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18431&d=1251190289
http://www.a1k.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18433&d=1251190390
Of course, IndivisionECS will be available at fine retail shops such as Red's Retro, before the end of the year.
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thats prety sweet. Good old Jens
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One for each eye!
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That first pic looks like two Indy ECS's doing it... is that how it's got dual output? How
about a threesome? lol I wonder if dual output will enhance my X-Spec 3D goggles ;-)
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Cool! these little jobbies will make all the old machines really useable again, maybe even a resurgence of the 68K love.
Too bad I blowed up my A1000 - oh well I got too many miggys anyway.
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That first pic looks like two Indy ECS's doing it... is that how it's got dual output? How
about a threesome? lol I wonder if dual output will enhance my X-Spec 3D goggles ;-)
Two is the limit - we're aiming at a dual-screen workbench for all those who don't have a gfx card. It won't be as fast as a gfx card, but it'll give you twice as much space on the workbench - if the required HighGFX mode can be programmed (that's still in the works). We also have more features in the works that haven't been announced yet.
Be aware that A3000D users must remove the battery, and A2000 Rev.4 users must solder on the board to move an electrolytic cap to a different position. Using Indivision ECS in an A1000 requires an adapter. CDTV will fit just fine, and other A2000 models as well.
Most people will probably spice up their A500 to make it a gaming machine with a flat screen. These will probably be fine with a single Indivision ECS. You can always add a second Indivision ECS at a later point if some killer application is released - the units are exactly the same, only a jumper setting tells the units if they are "primary" or "secondary".
Jens
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Very cool - what about dedicated modes for the second display, so instead of having large dualscreen workbench, you can have workbench on one screen and f.ex dopus on the other?
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I wonder how the A1000 will handle it with only WB1.3 and Min. (512K Ram)
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Very cool! Would this fit in an a600?
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Very cool! Would this fit in an a600?
You may use this in a A600 as long as you have an A603.
http://www.redsretro.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1
It will fit in the A600 desktop, but will require removal of the internal floppy drive.
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@Schoenfeld
Wow.. Very cool indeed.
If you ever release that 030 accelerator for the 600, I will buy both in an instant.
Imagine having two screens with an expanded 600 running sabreMSN, MP3's etc... yum yum!
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@Jens
Why doesn't AGA version have this capability?
I am inspired to write a game that uses Indivision AGA dual screen capabilities! = more sales for you.
But ECS is so last week. I have no motivation to code an ECS game, sorry.
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You have one sale here, love to try this card on our CDTV and 50 inch Plasma TV.
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Very cool, will you be able to drag-and drop between monitors? How about run one monitor in a different resolution to the other one? You could then have a 50hz PAL game running on one and have a productivity application open on the other @ 1024x768 ;)
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Why doesn't AGA version have this capability?
I'd bet it's because you can't piggyback the AGA versions like you can the ECS ones.
DIP makes everything so simple.
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That's great news! applicable to all ECS systems!
* click red's first post *
AAAargh!! Fire walled!! Can't see it!! :(
* click red's second post *
:???: that one works?
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CloneA lives!
Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
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CloneA lives!
Sorry, couldn't resist ;)
CloneA should be awesome when it ships!!!
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That's rather impressive :D
Dual head ECS. Who would have thought it? Well, Jens did, obviously, but who else?
When I first got the BVision, I didn't set up the 56kHz audio hack and could still use AGA screens alongside the RTG output. It was actually quite handy for things like fullscreen spectrum emulators :)
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CloneA lives!
Indeed, Indivision ECS contains a full Denise and does NOT use the original Denise video output. We're snooping the chip bus on the Denise-input-side.
Jens
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Very cool, will you be able to drag-and drop between monitors? How about run one monitor in a different resolution to the other one? You could then have a 50hz PAL game running on one and have a productivity application open on the other @ 1024x768 ;)
I would be surprised to find the functionality of dragging from one monitor to another, but THAT would be very cool indeed. But is it as cool since it is only on ECS computers, not AGA?
Still, Jens keeps coming out with one cool Amiga add-on after another and I will probably buy at least one of them if not two or more. Having two for different Amiga computers I could test out the multiple monitor displays on one Amiga by borrowing one of the ECS Indivisions from one Amiga and placing both in another Amiga.
Way to go Jens, you keep Amiga computing interesting and it just keeps getting better. I love my two Indivisions for my A1200 and A4000.
P.S. NovaCoder - nice specs in your signature of your A1200 system.
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I'd bet it's because you can't piggyback the AGA versions like you can the ECS ones.
DIP makes everything so simple.
Correct - the ECS version is a totally different idea. While the AGA version takes it's video data from the Lisa output, the ECS version had to take all data from the "other side" of the chip, as mentioned above. The reason for that was the dirty SHires output of the ECS denise, which is drifting a lot over temperature. There was no way of sampling the Denise output without having to add an adjustment screw.
Such an adjustment screw was not an option - I wanted the product to be compatible without the retro-like pixel flickering that is caused by a bad adjustment. The only way to get around that was to implement a full Denise, as the chip bus runs at a stable 3.5MHz, and it doesn't drift over temperature too much.
That said, it should be clear how we're splitting the screen: Imagine two Denise chips taking the same data, but turning it into different pictures. Although the actual implementation is different, you can imagine one Denise using bitplanes 0 and 1, while the other Denise is taking bitplanes 2 and 3. This can of course only work if the resolution is the same on both screens.
Reality is slightly differnt, as we have the advantage of the full frame buffer and detailed knowledge about the mouse pointer position (chip registers are 100% known to the FPGA), but we do NOT intend to write a WB emulation. Everything must look to the Amiga OS as if it's a single monitor. In this case, it's just twice as wide.
Jens
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Next step, the rest of the chipset :)
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/me waiting for a 16-bit Paula :)
2 Paula's piggybacked = 8 channels!!!
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/me waiting for a 16-bit Paula :)
2 Paula's piggybacked = 8 channels!!!
8 channels isn't really that useful, since the Amiga only has two physical outputs, 2 16bit channels would have been much more useful.
But since Paula never received an upgrade no software was ever written to take advantage of better audio, so any upgrade to Paula would be a waste of time.
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16-bit audio software was written decades ago. It is just waiting for a 16-bit Paula.
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16-bit audio software was written decades ago. It is just waiting for a 16-bit Paula.
So you'll write drivers for this new 16-bit Paula?
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But since Paula never received an upgrade no software was ever written to take advantage of better audio, so any upgrade to Paula would be a waste of time.
Oh, I dunno. I quite like the idea of a replacement that is register compatible with Paula but extends it with a few extra features. It would be cool if the incoming sample data was internally upsampled to 16/24-bits 44/48kHz, with optional interpolation per channel. In addition you could have a pan register for each channel. Digital output would be very nice too.
Even if all you had to start with was a global "mixer" tool that could bang these new registers directly to globally set the interpolation/panning of each channel it would be better than nothing.
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Oh, I dunno. I quite like the idea of a replacement that is register compatible with Paula but extends it with a few extra features. It would be cool if the incoming sample data was internally upsampled to 16/24-bits 44/48kHz, with optional interpolation per channel. In addition you could have a pan register for each channel. Digital output would be very nice too.
Even if all you had to start with was a global "mixer" tool that could bang these new registers directly to globally set the interpolation/panning of each channel it would be better than nothing.
yeah it's a nice idea, and the old longing for such a thing is strong... But honestly, a cheap Audio DSP chip off the shelf would be soooooooooo much better it is scary!
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I think I read somewhere that Paula is a 16 bit chip with 8 bit DACs so that it actually loads 2 8 bit samples at a time. I am not sure if this is anything useful, though. Perhaps a Paula 16 AHI driver could be written? This might also lower the sampling rate of the chip since it achieves 28KHz 8-bit maybe the max would be 14KHz 16-bit (yuck)
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yeah it's a nice idea, and the old longing for such a thing is strong... But honestly, a cheap Audio DSP chip off the shelf would be soooooooooo much better it is scary!
Sure, but such a DSP could be part of the output bus of said design. I'm just talking about a legacy paula interface.
I didn't say anything about not having dedicated RAM and a full blown DSP on the other side of it (for AHI drivers perhaps).
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/me waiting for a 16-bit Paula :)
2 Paula's piggybacked = 8 channels!!!
Exolon of FAIRLIGHT (Startrekker) had said to me, a few years ago (!) , that it would be impossible: because "cycle or timing" between the 2 PAULA (I don't remember exactly).
My project was to build an expansion for AMIGA 500/2000/3000 with more than 2 PAULA inside to have 8, 12 or 16 channels...with a STARTREKKER (like FastTracker :-) )
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not sure how this flickerfixer thread became a sound-thread, but it's even possible to re-configure the FPGA to be a sound output.
All data that is pumped into Paula through the DMA channels comes flying by Indivision ECS as well, so it can potentially make use of it. The three analog RGB outputs could be pulsed to carry more-than-16-bit audio (maybe a capacitor should be added to filter the high-frequency pulses), and the HSync/VSync signals could be used for SPDIF digital output fairly easily.
While the real Paula can only join two 8-bit channels to be one 14-bit channel, we could give it a true 16-bit channel. Data rate would be a problem, though: Maximum sample rate would remain the same if the standard DMA channels and existing software shall be used.
We do have some ram on the board, which could be used as sample data ram (which unfortunately is only 13 bits wide, making 6.5M of the 8M buffer usable). Hmmm... now who has the source code to some tracker software?
Jens
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:eek: Will some one please get this man some Octamed SS source code asap! Maybe you should come out with a "AudioVision" version? Wait, what about AGA?
"You're gonna see some serious shet when this Amiga hits 88 MPH..."
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Perhaps a Paula 16 AHI driver could be written?
That would be the only practical way of doing it.
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Hello Jens,
By looking at the picture with the 3 screens, I can see that the dual screen trick is done this way :
The Amiga (I mean Agnus...) is set up to display a 640x512 interlaced screen but the workbench thinks it is a 1280x256 screen.
One FF shows the even frames, the other one shows the odd frames. Screen update is done at 25Hz in the FF's SDRAM and 75Hz on the screens.
Very smart trick indeed.
To get higher resolutions, you will have to lower the update rate. It reminds me the high resolution screen from commodore that was combining 4 screens and had an update rate of 15 Hz.
Back to the indivision, a good use of it would be to get HW acceleration for MAME.
If it is possible to reconfigure the FPGA on the fly without flashing the board, that might be possible (I do not want to reflash the board each time I play a different game).
Regards,
Frederic
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We do have some ram on the board, which could be used as sample data ram (which unfortunately is only 13 bits wide, making 6.5M of the 8M buffer usable). Hmmm... now who has the source code to some tracker software?
Jens
Damn, I marvel at your knowledge, ideas and ability to produce real life working products out of them. Upgraded Amiga audio would be so cool. :)
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Hello Jens,
By looking at the picture with the 3 screens, I can see that the dual screen trick is done this way :
The Amiga (I mean Agnus...) is set up to display a 640x512 interlaced screen but the workbench thinks it is a 1280x256 screen.
One FF shows the even frames, the other one shows the odd frames. Screen update is done at 25Hz in the FF's SDRAM and 75Hz on the screens.
Very smart trick indeed.
To get higher resolutions, you will have to lower the update rate. It reminds me the high resolution screen from commodore that was combining 4 screens and had an update rate of 15 Hz.
Back to the indivision, a good use of it would be to get HW acceleration for MAME.
If it is possible to reconfigure the FPGA on the fly without flashing the board, that might be possible (I do not want to reflash the board each time I play a different game).
Regards,
Frederic
I don't think so... it looks like the Amiga thinks it displays a 640*512 (or 640*256 it doesn't matter) with 4 bitplanes, i.e. 16 colours... but the first two bitplanes display on one monitor and the other two display on the other monitor... giving two 8 colour screens... it is a bit like the old DualPlayfield effect that I used to love using to get faster blitting back in the day... but with each playfield on a different monitor. One of the few advantages of using blitplane graphics over chunky ones...
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Hello Jens,
By looking at the picture with the 3 screens, I can see that the dual screen trick is done this way :
The Amiga (I mean Agnus...) is set up to display a 640x512 interlaced screen but the workbench thinks it is a 1280x256 screen.
One FF shows the even frames, the other one shows the odd frames. Screen update is done at 25Hz in the FF's SDRAM and 75Hz on the screens.
Very smart trick indeed.
Thanks :-) That was only the fastest possible way of testing the thing, and there are multiple other ways to transfer different pictures.
To get higher resolutions, you will have to lower the update rate. It reminds me the high resolution screen from commodore that was combining 4 screens and had an update rate of 15 Hz.
You're talking about the A2024 monitor - nice thing, I have been using that over many years until the CRT stopped working. It did have some nice additions like transferring the field where the mouse pointer is more often than the other fields, so it appeared to the user as if the update rate was higher. A serious drawback was that it could only display five or six different shades of grey. I do like retro, but black&white is not the right thing for the Amiga (even for people like me, who do everything in the shell).
Back to the indivision, a good use of it would be to get HW acceleration for MAME.
If it is possible to reconfigure the FPGA on the fly without flashing the board, that might be possible (I do not want to reflash the board each time I play a different game).
Re-configuring from software-only without going through the flash may be possible, but will have to stand back behind a fast re-config from flash. We may have to switch between FPGA cores on every change of screenmodes, so speed is cruicial here. Currently a change of cores takes about a tenth of a second if flash is the source, but we'd like to reduce this to "one VGA frame", so monitors don't get confused too much.
Re-configuring from software-only will take a lot longer (several seconds), as there's only a bit-banging data path to the FPGA. I will probably NOT release the schematics to this thing, as it's meant to be a product, not a development platform, so don't count on anyone to make specialized cores for non-standard software. Imagine somebody causing bus contention between the 3.3V FPGA and the 5V-tolerant drivers! A faulty core could potentially damage a chip, and if this happens within the warranty period, it would be very expensive for me. The risk is just too high.
Jens
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I don't think so... it looks like the Amiga thinks it displays a 640*512 (or 640*256 it doesn't matter) with 4 bitplanes, i.e. 16 colours... but the first two bitplanes display on one monitor and the other two display on the other monitor... giving two 8 colour screens... it is a bit like the old DualPlayfield effect that I used to love using to get faster blitting back in the day... but with each playfield on a different monitor. One of the few advantages of using blitplane graphics over chunky ones...
You sure that isn't a pair of 4-colour screens? ;)
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You sure that isn't a pair of 4-colour screens? ;)
Yeah... Note to self: don't post before I've had my first coffee of the day :p
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Oh man... I so badly want like two or three of these... Red are you taking advance orders? Amigakit? I'll then be able to attach all my amigas to my KVM... gota get some speaker hookups for the amigas though now that I won't be using 1084s monitors anymore....
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@Schoenfeld
Any rough ETA on the release of CloneA? Just trying to get an idea, no one will hold you to any date mentioned.
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@Trip6
In answering your question, yes have been taking advance orders this week from customers here:
USA Pre-Orders here (we will be selling at Amiwest 2009 also):
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/USD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918
UK Pre-Orders:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/GBP.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918
Europe Pre-Orders:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/EUR.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918
Canada Pre-Orders:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/CAD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918
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Ouch! $140 each, I guess I will just have to get one, not the 6 I was planning on.
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Ouch! $140 each, I guess I will just have to get one, not the 6 I was planning on.
That may be the best example of wishful thinking I've ever seen.
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@Jens
What would be the advantage of this kit (other than dual monitors) over my Amber card? Thanks, I love what you're doing for the Amiga.
Chris
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@Jens
What would be the advantage of this kit (other than dual monitors) over my Amber card?
Chris
You can buy it.
:)
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You can buy it.
:)
Agreed, but I'm thinking I would sell the Amber card for greater compatibility with modern LCDs.
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Ouch! $140 each, I guess I will just have to get one, not the 6 I was planning on.
lol @ ROFL. I am with you on this one quarkx.
Way too expensive. I don't give a flying sh** about outputting on 2 LCDs. Should have designed a cheap solution without all the extra fuss... one screen lower price. I have the Amber 2320 and it does a fine job for me for 8 years now. This is a perfectly good example of an Engineer doing overkill of a design, inflating the price in the process. Most people won't need this if they have no Graphics card. Note to all: i'm not bashing Jens as engineer (nice design). Just saying he should have made it such it could be cheaper. Don't add all the extra things, keep the price more affordable.
How much cheaper? My take is $80-100 range ($99 would be ideal).
I may be hesitant to spend $140.
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2320 is a great card, but if you use LCDs the Indivision wins hands down.
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2320 is a great card, but if you use LCDs the Indivision wins hands down.
Please explain.
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Oldschool Amiga scandoublers produce vertical banding on most LCDs, unless you have an infinitely adjustable one to play with clock and phase settings to work them all out. The Indivisions simply don't have this problem as they're meant to work with "correct" VGA-style screenmodes. CRTs don't have this trouble with scandoublers, so if you're on one of those, you have your pick of the litter.
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Oldschool Amiga scandoublers produce vertical banding on most LCDs, unless you have an infinitely adjustable one to play with clock and phase settings to work them all out. The Indivisions simply don't have this problem as they're meant to work with "correct" VGA-style screenmodes. CRTs don't have this trouble with scandoublers, so if you're on one of those, you have your pick of the litter.
I'm familiar with what you're talking about. It's a minor issue, but an issue just the same. Maybe I'll sell the Amber card for one of these. Thanks for the help.
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The issue can be minor or major, depending on the particular LCD you're using. I have ones I can adjust to almost perfect with the 2320, and others that are painful to look at. I'd say, bottom line, if your heart is set on LCD and you want to be sure of a good clear picture, Indivision is the only way.
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lol @ ROFL. I am with you on this one quarkx.
Way too expensive. I don't give a flying sh** about outputting on 2 LCDs. Should have designed a cheap solution without all the extra fuss... one screen lower price. I have the Amber 2320 and it does a fine job for me for 8 years now. This is a perfectly good example of an Engineer doing overkill of a design, inflating the price in the process. Most people won't need this if they have no Graphics card. Note to all: i'm not bashing Jens as engineer (nice design). Just saying he should have made it such it could be cheaper. Don't add all the extra things, keep the price more affordable.
How much cheaper? My take is $80-100 range ($99 would be ideal).
I may be hesitant to spend $140.
Yes, my thoughts exactly, if I was buying 1 for 1 Amiga (like the AGA for the 1200 and 4000) this price would be ok, but most people would buy 2 or more if they are like me and have a slew of classic Amigas. I would LOVE to get 2 on my A1000, 1 each for my 500's and 1 for my 600, but even at half the price, the investment is not worth the WOW factor of running dual monitors.
This is hardware for the Classes not the masses at this price. These are the prices I would expect the pirates on Ebay to be charging (in fact, you can find NOS flicker fixers for CHEAPER there).
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This is hardware for the Classes not the masses at this price.
Well, they're not cheap enough to wipe your ass on or anything, but they're in-line with what scandoublers have been costing, and yet they're more modern and provide better/more functionality.
This isn't the "one Indivision in every Amiga" game. You've gotta want it.
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(in fact, you can find NOS flicker fixers for CHEAPER there).
And as previously stated, they don't work as well with modern monitors.
Sure, we all want everything to be cheaper. Unfortunately things cost money.
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Well, they're not cheap enough to wipe your ass on or anything, but they're in-line with what scandoublers have been costing, and yet they're more modern and provide better/more functionality.
This isn't the "one Indivision in every Amiga" game. You've gotta want it.
I call EXTREAME BS (B F***in S)on that one. I am working closely now with a hardware manufacture and I have a pretty good idea of the cost of the components. Lets just say Jens is making a very good profit and AmigaKit is making a good profit. I wouldn't be suprised at all if the cost has been doubled and doubled again at retail.
Hey, I am not against making profit, but they will sell alot more if they dropped the price to below $100. Again, it boils down to simple economics. but here we go again with floging a dead horse. This is the same argument as the SAM, Minimig, etc- It comes down to price gouging. The sellers are shooting themselves in the head with the prices. When they could be making so much more profit in volume sales.
Like I said before I would rather make a $10/unit profit on 1000 units than a $50 /unit profit and only sell 30 units.
You can not argue with the math (but of course the meatheads will try).
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Wow, new hardware developed for a dead machine and people complain that it costs too much. What do you really expect?! I bought my Amber card off ebay for $150 and had to pull my Toaster to put it in. Dead hardware development isn't the bill payer for Jens--I'm just glad he loves the Ami enough to do this stuff. BTW: Shhh.... I don't think anybody's getting rich on this stuff, call me crazy. ;) 'Nuff said.
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I call EXTREAME BS (B F***in S)on that one.
Do you mean to say you think the price is not in line with what a good working scandoubler would cost you on eBay, if you can even find one that works in an A500/A1000?
And how about the fact that this is a new, supported, guaranteed product. If you buy that dusty old 2320 or Microway on eBay and put it in your 2000 and every time you switch to 8 color 320x240 mode a giant turd floats across your screen, who can you complain to? No one. Now with the Indivision, you don't have to worry about that. Jens will work on a fix to get rid of the giant turd.
As for what you know about manufacturing hardware, it costs a hell of a lot less to reproduce old designs than it does to develop and design new products. Any jerk can etch a few boards.
It's a good product, at a fair price. I'm sure it'll sell well.
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Wow, new hardware developed for a dead machine and people complain that it costs too much. What do you really expect?! I bought my Amber card off ebay for $150 and had to pull my Toaster to put it in. Dead hardware development isn't the bill payer for Jens--I'm just glad he loves the Ami enough to do this stuff. BTW: Shhh.... I don't think anybody's getting rich on this stuff, call me crazy. ;) 'Nuff said.
X2, Jens is never going to get rich from selling this stuff...he does it because he can. If you don't want to pay the $$$ for new Amiga HW, don't.
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X2, Jens is never going to get rich from selling this stuff...he does it because he can. If you don't want to pay the $$$ for new Amiga HW, don't.
Hey, I never said Jens was going to get rich or anything (By the way I did say you can get scan doublers for the ame price off ebay) My Point is the $140 price point is way too expensive for people to buy 2 or or more for the dual screen mode. My second point is that SIMPLE ECONIMICS and MATH justifies lowering the profit margin to sell more units and make more profit. You can't argue with the facts, but everyone is these days. It looks like we have a lot of so called "experts" on both hardware and economics. I don't claim to be either, but I can do simple math.
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When they could be making so much more profit in volume sales.
Like I said before I would rather make a $10/unit profit on 1000 units than a $50 /unit profit and only sell 30 units.
You can not argue with the math (but of course the meatheads will try).
I'm sure Jens would love that, too, if he could find customers in the 1000's. This is a very small market, and economies of scale don't provide a positive benefit. The least expensive Altera dev kit is 150 USD. The fact that Jens can approach that price with his own products at a fraction of the volume is a good thing, and I hope both he and his retailers do profit from it. Jens designs good kit.
EDIT: I can't tell from the photo which FPGA Jens is using. The cheapest FLEX-10K is 32.50 USD per unit on Altera's site.
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Wow, there are a fair few a**holes in the community. I for one think it's a great price considering the work that went into it. Jens obviously spent countless hours designing that beastie, coupled with the time it took to reverse engineer the ECS/OCS chipset (since the integral part of this design is based on his previous clone-A project)
He's fully justified in charging whatever the hell he wants for it. There's a TINY market, the guy needs to eat and fund his future ventures, and there's no way adding a minuscule markup such as $10 will _EVER_ pay off the time/labour spent on such a venture. Have you gotten off your lazy a$$ and created any new hardware for the Amiga? No, You haven't.
So, stop your damn b***ing about how "for that price it better have a builtin dong-schpedoodler", or he "Should've done x" or "Typical, he over-engineered Y and inflated the price" or "People that want to buy two cant because they'd have to trade in an arm, leg and testicle".
$@#*$^#*(^&($&(@*#&
/quit
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What, you have a crystal ball that can show what the sales numbers would be at $100 per unit compared to $140 per unit? I don't think so! I don't think anyone can guarantee that more profit would be made in the long run at different price points per unit.
It is Jens product to price at what ever point he chooses and you can either choose to buy 1, or 2, or a dozen. Personally I don't think the dual monitor mode was planned from the beginning. I think it was just a happy coincidence that he, or someone on his development team figured out that with the DIP socket they could double up two ECS Indivisions and with some clever additional programming, they could provide the dual monitor display option. I don't think it is over engineered like someone said, but it is also not what could be called "Value Engineered" to be the cheapest scan doubler available. Rather it is engineered to be the best scan doubling product available for the Amiga and I for one think the price is very fair considering the years of research behind it that allowed it to be created and the results of what it provide to the user.
If you can invent a product that provides the same quality display cheaper, go for it and good luck to you.
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Not to be on the negative side, but unfortunately, the price is a little steep for me. I'm not everyone, and I'm certain that they will sell many of these. It seems to me that more people have OCS/ECS machines than the AGA machines. I have three machines that I would like to buy one each for. I regrettably cannot afford it. I will not bitch about it as it's not Jens fault that he needs to make a profit, nor is it Amigakit's fault as they need to make a profit too. I blame solely the economy as it is keeping me from having a good job. When people who have worked in the IT field for 20 Years are looking for work because they got laid off, what is someone like me who is just finishing up school to expect? You can get work experience for next to nothing, or untrained for next to nothing, which would you choose? For me it's very hard to justify to my wife and myself to buy something like this when it's not truly necessary to have to make the Amiga work. Whoever said we were out of the economic slump lied through their freaking teeth. However. I wish them the best of luck and if some of my unpaid consulting jobs come through (still haven't been paid for about 35 hours @ $75 an hour) then I will more than likely buy the three I want, but like with most other electronics. I don't truly need them.
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You're an a*****e too buddy, and pretty low to resort to name calling (isn't that against this site's rules?).
You know everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter if yours or mine is stupid or not.
I just think the better price would be $99 not $140. its a flicker fixer newly produced, great, I would expect a better price than some old stuff you find on ebay. You pay for rarity factor there.
Anyway don't give me that no one makes a hefty profit (which is fine) on amiga hardware. Jens, amigakit all those dealers do. Jens deserves it because he has to live off it, some dealers the same. However, making larger quantities of the products would sell more at better prices of that i have no doubt. Yeah, I'd buy 2 or 3 now i'm going to buy ONLY 1. Challenge to dealers: how about making a special offer if someone wants 2 or 3 or more of those? The flicker fixer is unlike another component, it allows connection to VGA monitor. And since its internal its not easy to swap for use on another machine.
You have to remove the entire metal thing holding the powersupply and disk drives - hence one flicker fixer for only one machine (which one A2000 or A500? tough choice especially if you use A500 for gaming and A2000 for more serious stuff)
And yes for last comment: I understand Jens need to live, but make your products for the masses not the classes. Thats the old Commodore slogan. I have always supported Jens and Individual Compuers products. But in today's economic slump its pretty hard.
Wow, there are a fair few a**holes in the community. I for one think it's a great price considering the work that went into it. Jens obviously spent countless hours designing that beastie, coupled with the time it took to reverse engineer the ECS/OCS chipset (since the integral part of this design is based on his previous clone-A project)
He's fully justified in charging whatever the hell he wants for it. There's a TINY market, the guy needs to eat and fund his future ventures, and there's no way adding a minuscule markup such as $10 will _EVER_ pay off the time/labour spent on such a venture. Have you gotten off your lazy a$$ and created any new hardware for the Amiga? No, You haven't.
So, stop your damn b***ing about how "for that price it better have a builtin dong-schpedoodler", or he "Should've done x" or "Typical, he over-engineered Y and inflated the price" or "People that want to buy two cant because they'd have to trade in an arm, leg and testicle".
$@#*$^#*(^&($&(@*#&
/quit
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Jens put a lot of R & D into this and only he knows the right price to charge based on that labor. Jens makes damn good German engineered products, they will not be the cheapest available. But they will be the best quality.
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I will not join in any name calling, but I do disagree with your thinking that new hardware for the Amiga that comes with a warranty should somehow be cheaper than old hardware on eBay.
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What, you have a crystal ball that can show what the sales numbers would be at $100 per unit compared to $140 per unit? I don't think so! I don't think anyone can guarantee that more profit would be made in the long run at different price points per unit.
.
Its the same as Amiga One, then SAM board. If it was better priced it would sell better and to more amiga users.
I bet Genesi did better job at selling their boards in terms of quantity. Seems more Morph than OS4 developers. but then i'm getting off topic. Pricing has been a challenge in Amiga world, but perhaps time has come for change? If not this platform will stay where it is dead or almost non-player. Oh its pretty sad to see how many are willing to pay big $ for hardware but few are willing to pay for software (new or used). This is the vault with Amiga community. I bought all my software.
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However, making larger quantities of the products would sell more at better prices of that i have no doubt.
And you still think there is a market for it? Come on, think again, do you seriously think he will sell anything close to 1000 units?
Maybe if Commodore still existed.
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I will not join in any name calling, but I do disagree with your thinking that new hardware for the Amiga that comes with a warranty should somehow be cheaper than old hardware on eBay.
amigadave,
I respect your opinion. Just it seems that you can make it new in batch of 1000 (i'm guessing at least, but why not make 2000 or 3000 so people can buy 2 or 3???) then surely you can keep costs down below some vintage piece on ebay? anyway pricing if you are seller / manufacturer / vendor is a matter of preference.
Lets say it costs Jens $20 to produce each board, he can still charge $90 and $10 would go to dealer (a 10% return on resale & support is quite high, margin in pc industry is much lower than that). BTW, a true value for Amber 2320 is more like $75-100. Thats what it used to cost 2-3-4 years ago, before Amiga went ebay. Anyway I just thought to give suggestion, nothing more. I will still buy 1 one those (if it was better priced id get 2 or 3).
THANK YOU for making the flicker fixer possible. (no sarcasm, seriously).
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Most of my "Amiga" tinkering is done via WinUAE these day, but if I was still bashing my A500 I'd have one of these in the blink of an eye...
To me this product is truly brilliant. It's obviously taken a lot of time and hard work to develop and I reckon a bargain at the price.
Mike.
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It isn't Jens fault that the US dollar is at so low these days. 100 euros is great price for a new scandoubler.
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OMG ffs. Its too expensive. booo fooking hoo.
Simple Don't buy it. I doubt anyone actually cares that some of you wanted to buy loads of them.
I want an Audi R8, but I can't afford £76k ($150K) , if they sold them for £100 they would sell more. I want one for £100 its not fair booo hoo.
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OMG ffs. Its too expensive. booo fooking hoo.
Simple Don't buy it. I doubt anyone actually cares that some of you wanted to buy loads of them.
I want an Audi R8, but I can't afford £76k ($150K) , if they sold them for £100 they would sell more. I want one for £100 its not fair booo hoo.
+1
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You want an Audi R8 ?
Lets both chip in and share one :)
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While the real Paula can only join two 8-bit channels to be one 14-bit channel, we could give it a true 16-bit channel.
Interesting idea. I think this could be achieved without any need for additional software support.
You need some simple logic to detect a condition where channels from single side have the same sampling frequency (rate) and volume set to either 64 and 1 or 1 and 64. See here for details: http://aminet.net/package/mus/misc/Pro14bitbet
When the condition is met you can then take the two different 8-bit components and produce a true 16-bit data out of it.
This way it would work with manual tricks such as descibed in the Pro14bitbet and with the 14-bit noteplayers available for various player apps (such as http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/Deli14BitGenie). As a bonus you'd get 16-bit paula AHI for free (paula.audio supports the 14-bit mode).
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Im a huge Amiga n00blit.
That being said, even I am fully aware that if you want new shinies to stick in your Amiga, you have to fork out some money.
If you can afford to keep an old machine fairly current, you should be able to afford another doodad to stick in it.
If not, whaaaaaawahaaaaaa. You've been doing fine without it yeah?
Its more like a "keeping up with the steins" than a "this is too expensive"
Not everyone can immediately afford new stuff. Some have to wait. Woopeedoo. (I can't even afford an Amiga 500 atm. lol)
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Interesting idea. I think this could be achieved without any need for additional software support.
You need some simple logic to detect a condition where channels from single side have the same sampling frequency (rate) and volume set to either 64 and 1 or 1 and 64. See here for details: http://aminet.net/package/mus/misc/Pro14bitbet
When the condition is met you can then take the two different 8-bit components and produce a true 16-bit data out of it.
This way it would work with manual tricks such as descibed in the Pro14bitbet and with the 14-bit noteplayers available for various player apps (such as http://aminet.net/package/mus/play/Deli14BitGenie). As a bonus you'd get 16-bit paula AHI for free (paula.audio supports the 14-bit mode).
now this idea rocks!
Hopefully Jens is noting it down for any future work ;)
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may look valid, but let me get to each and every aspect.
Amber cards and NOS flickerfixers: They are all limited to Hires. Indivision makes S-Hires, which requires twice the data rate.
Older flickerfixers only double the vertical frequency. This results in 50Hz for PAL screens, which can't be displayed on most modern monitors. Indivision will even output 62.5Hz on PAL screens, making today's cheap monitors and overstock items available to the Amiga. The overall system cost will be lower, as you can choose a cheaper monitor. Needless to say that a truly async frame buffer makes things more complicated on the hardware.
Older flickerfixers always needed adjustment. Doing a few turns on a potentiometer doesn't hurt, but having to do it over and over again when room/computer temperature changes is just not state-of-the art. Indivision ECS does not require any adjustments. It works right out of the box, pain-free, guaranteed.
We have been working on Indivision ECS since february of this year. Knowledge from Indivision AGA and from Clone-A has gone into this product as well. Several prototypes had to be built, and only the manpower (Oliver's and mine) already exceeded 50k EUR development cost. Translate that to 500 units sold after 2 years (which is my expectation), you're already at 100,- EUR per unit. Why can I still sell it at 99,- EUR each? The answer is that I'm working for much less than an engineer normally makes. I'm paying Oliver with all the fuzz that German law requires: Retirement plan, health care, insurance, paid holidays.
Over-engineerd? Nope, I have to reject that. You can buy smaller FPGAs (in terms of logic), but that would not save you any money. Indivision ECS is pretty optimal with an Altera EP1C3 and a Xilinx 72-Macrocell CPLD (weird marriage, eh?). More components are on the board for clock generation, memory and 3.3V conversion, where none could be replaced for a cheaper one.
The trick is to justify making the thing at all: We need these powerful components, as less power would not save money. There is no cheaper way of making up-to-date-hardware. I might even go as far as to say that there's no cheaper way of making the hardware at all, as older components are more expensive.
So why not make the best of it? I bet wining would be even louder if we stopped development in the middle of the road and started selling, like many far-east R&D teams do. This is just not our style. Yes, it's a German thing to make it the "best possible solution", whereas there might be markets where people would accept pixel flickering and fewer features, maybe even two re-starts a day.
Since technology dictates that we're using these powerful components anyway, we should make the best out of it. I must admit that I even like the thought of a Mercedes over a Kia. And Mercedes quality may not always reach Toyota quantities. Given the high development cost, you all will hopefully understand that a 99,- EUR price tag is in the Volkswagen Golf range (is it still the rabbit in the US?), nowhere near expensive sports cars.
That said, it would indeed make things cheaper if I produced 1000 instead of 500 units. If someone wants to place such an order with me, I'm happy to sell exclusively to that person, provided that the final price is really under 99,- EUR over the next two years. Who is putting out that kind of money?
Jens
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You want an Audi R8 ?
Lets both chip in and share one :)
Hmmmm... Ok, but only if it has an iPhone connector :p ;)
@Jens ignore the stultifyingly illinformed armchair experts! While the indivision is not a product that I currently require, I think it is well priced and I look forward to future products based on the CloneA project (yes, I am waiting for the Big One :) )
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In AmigaLand, where options are so few and far between, I would rather have more than fewer. As such, I'll take the Mercedes for a few dollars more.
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Jens seems like quite the engineer. Personally I think he and the Natami team should combine resources and get the "people's Amiga" out the door.
I would love to see the NATAMI as a product that could be booted as an Amiga classic, Amiga 5000, ST, Atari Jaguar, NeoGeo, Mac or arcade board by flicking some dip switches and plugging in the right SD card or something like that...
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@lou_dias
The difference between what Jens does and what NatAmi people are trying to do is common sense.
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100 Euro is very much, but I'm goiing to buy two for my A600, but I wait when I have a job and see if someone make a hack to use both Indivision ECS and floppy drive.
I think that this piece of hardware is one of the best expansion you could buy for an ECS Amiga.
I like to have two different screens to show off some PC owners.
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Common sense?
...tell me that 1 year ago if someone proposed a dual screen Amiga display that they wouldn't be laughed at and told that it was impossible...
...let's look at how Dennis was laughed at when he first proposed the Minimig...
...common sense says that with good engineering, anything is possible if you ask me...
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...tell me that 1 year ago if someone proposed a dual screen Amiga display that they wouldn't be laughed at and told that it was impossible...
I don't think anyone would have called dual screen Amiga display impossible. There have been two-headed Amiga setups forever (look at multi-monitor RTG setups and Video Toaster stuff.) Sure, it's a bit different, but the idea isn't foreign.
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I'm thinking of getting two for my a600 as well. The only difficulty is figuring out how to mount the connectors in a sane way with that little box. Another thing i need to do is figure out how to modify the a600 to think that DF1: is actually DF0:.
Since the Indivision ECS emulates the DENISE chip. Does that mean that there's enough potential for AGA emulation? The chip ram bus is going to be too slow for it but on the other hand, there's that lightning fast onboard ram. It wouldn't be much use on an a600 but on an expanded a3000 it could get interesting.
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OMG ffs. Its too expensive. booo fooking hoo.
Simple Don't buy it. I doubt anyone actually cares that some of you wanted to buy loads of them.
I want an Audi R8, but I can't afford £76k ($150K) , if they sold them for £100 they would sell more. I want one for £100 its not fair booo hoo.
+2
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Another thing i need to do is figure out how to modify the a600 to think that DF1: is actually DF0:.
Simple thing: Swap the Sel0 and Sel1 lines, pure wiring, no (additional) electronics required.
Since the Indivision ECS emulates the DENISE chip.
It doesn't emulate. It *contains* a Denise.
Does that mean that there's enough potential for AGA emulation?
No. AGA performance is mainly made by Alice in place of the old Agnus. Lisa ist just a blown-up Denise with little to no novelties, just a little brute force to get 24 bit colours in there. You won't have AGA without the Alice/Budgie combination.
Jens
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Sadly Compact flash card from my cf-ide68k is going over Denise chip. So thinking about building adapter to "move" Denise socket elsewhere, any ideas where to get connectors for flatcable? (Like ones they used in kickstart switchers). Otherwise, this is brilliant idea! Looking forward to code some demo routines for dual screen setup.
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Sadly Compact flash card from my cf-ide68k is going over Denise chip. So thinking about building adapter to "move" Denise socket elsewhere, any ideas where to get connectors for flatcable? (Like ones they used in kickstart switchers). Otherwise, this is brilliant idea! Looking forward to code some demo routines for dual screen setup.
That would also solve having to remove the floppy drive. I wonder if there is any reason the Indivision would NOT work if the Denise socket was relocated with a ribbon cable and adapter? Jens, have you considered this?
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Is there a tutorial on how to convert the A600 to DF1?
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Just some more teasing that shows the true power of a full Denise in the flickerfixer:
Even if you don't have an ECS Denise, you can use ECS screenmodes with Indivision ECS - it only requires a 1M Chipmem Agnus or higher.
Starting 1990, Commodore delivered computers with what we call "half-ECS" chipsets. This means that the computer already had an ECS Agnus (1M type, switchable between PAL and NTSC), but only an OCS Denise. If you install Indivision ECS in such a system, you can use the ECS modes anyway, such as S-Hires.
The second picture shows that the OCS Denise doesn't display such a mode correctly: It's interpreting the DMA data as a low-res screen and you only see broken graphics.
We're currently testing this in an A500 that has a 2M Chipmem expansion. No software installation is required. It works right out of the box, the computer will identify an ECS Denise, for example if you check SysInfo.
Jens
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Common sense?
Yes the common sense found in many projects such as MiniMig and IndivisionECS, and horribly lacking in anything related to NatAmi.
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Yes the common sense found in many projects such as MiniMig and IndivisionECS, and horribly lacking in anything related to NatAmi.
Common sense... its a precious commodity :P
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Lets just say Jens is making a very good profit and AmigaKit is making a good profit. I wouldn't be suprised at all if the cost has been doubled and doubled again at retail.
No way in hell are retailers like AmigaKit (and Red's Retro) are doubling price. I'm sorry, but that is a terribly naive remark.
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Yes the common sense found in many projects such as MiniMig and IndivisionECS, and horribly lacking in anything related to NatAmi.
well, 3d hw for amiga-like system might not be much of common sence, but a fast 68k compatible softcore would be very much what a lot of people here surely thirst for. so if chances are that it actually could emerge, what is there to say against it?
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amigadave,
I respect your opinion. Just it seems that you can make it new in batch of 1000 (i'm guessing at least, but why not make 2000 or 3000 so people can buy 2 or 3???) then surely you can keep costs down below some vintage piece on ebay? anyway pricing if you are seller / manufacturer / vendor is a matter of preference.
Lets say it costs Jens $20 to produce each board, he can still charge $90 and $10 would go to dealer (a 10% return on resale & support is quite high, margin in pc industry is much lower than that). BTW, a true value for Amber 2320 is more like $75-100. Thats what it used to cost 2-3-4 years ago, before Amiga went ebay. Anyway I just thought to give suggestion, nothing more. I will still buy 1 one those (if it was better priced id get 2 or 3).
THANK YOU for making the flicker fixer possible. (no sarcasm, seriously).
Are you insane!! Oh, he should just make THOUSANDS of these? Hey no problems!
Even if your imaginary figure of $20 to produce eac one you're talking about $20,000.00 to $60,000.00 investment.
$60,000.00, do you have that just sitting around? I don't think so or you wouldn't be bitching about 1 off hardware costing $150.
I think Jens is doing this as a hobby i.e. to help out the compunity, for fun, for things like that..., maybe to make a little money on the side--maybe--, but I doubt there is anyway he will ever recoup the cost of his time--ever.
I can't believe people bitch about $150 one off hardware for a dead computer.
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No way in hell are retailers like AmigaKit (and Red's Retro) are doubling price. I'm sorry, but that is a terribly naive remark.
I was just quoting economic books, I am sorry if that came across in any way offensive. It also is mentioned in "on the Edge" as the "typical" economic model.
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I was just quoting economic books, I am sorry if that came across in any way offensive. It also is mentioned in "on the Edge" as the "typical" economic model.
The modern Amiga market is far from typical.
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The modern Amiga market is far from typical.
Exactly. I don't think we can expect to have parts mass produced by 3rd party manufactures that are use to working in the scale of 1000s of pieces, when we have a community wide demand for, maybe, a couple hundred pieces.
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Hmmmm... Ok, but only if it has an iPhone connector :p ;)
Sorry that was a deal breaker for me :lol:
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Hmmmm... Ok, but only if it has an iPhone connector :p ;)
Sorry that was a deal breaker for me :lol:
:lol:
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I am now taking pre-orders on my main site:
http://www.redsretro.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=136
International buyers can get a flat $12.30 shipping by Priority Mail "Small Flat Rate Box", despite what the shipping calculator says.
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Guys stop whining and wise up!!! Jens and Oliver have developed something that will increase the longevity and usability of classic amigas by decades in their creation of Indivision ECS which lets us all use the latest LCD technology on our classic amiga computers. Not only that, but it eliminates the PAL\NTSC display problems us retro gamers always run into... No more boot disks, its all VGA output... Brilliant. We are lucky to have guys like Jens & Oliver who invest their time, money and talents into our Commodore & Amiga Community. I would challenge any of you whining to do it on the same to the level that Jens has over the years... Being overly critical and unappreciative of those who help us, is not smart, beacuse you may drive them away... I for one fully appreciate of Jens & Oliver's efforts and plan to support their latest creation. Nuff said...
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The funny thing is that those who scream loudest are the ones disqualifying themselves. I was pointed to the amigalounge blog and nearly laughed my a** off scrolling all the way down: First, he's complaining about pricing, wants to make his own Amiga designs (yeah, right, we've seen iWin before). Then he'd sell Indivision ECS at 69 USD in "thousands". Sure, a market that's good for a few hundred will take a few thousand extra units if it's only cheap enough. Didn't know that rule yet, maybe that's what I made wrong the past 15 years?
However, his random photos truly make up for all the fuzz that this person is babbeling. He's great at putting out numbers without background. He's arguing, and it even looks right if you don't ask any questions (such as "does the developer need to eat?"). He argues and argues, and then places this "random photo" in his blog:
http://www.amigalounge.com/uploaded_images/argue091204ek6-779239.jpg
Thanks buddy, you've made my day :-)
Jens
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Jens: Make my day and tell this is somehow possible?
Sadly Compact flash card from my cf-ide68k is going over Denise chip. So thinking about building adapter to "move" Denise socket elsewhere, any ideas where to get connectors for flatcable? (Like ones they used in kickstart switchers). Otherwise, this is brilliant idea! Looking forward to code some demo routines for dual screen setup.
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Indivision ECS should not be operated on a ribbon cable. Instead, I'd suggest that you lift up the cf-ide68k by adding one or two 64-pin sockets in between. Indivision ECS is a very flat design and should fit under that thing.
Jens
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Darn, I've got a VXL-30 accelerator on top of my CFIDE68k, and I can't go any higher (already had to grind down the motherboard mounts to get it all to fit.) Guess I'll have to put the Indivison in another machine, or try my luck with a homemade extender board or cable.
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Hehe, good to know that I did not critisize the price of A1200 version on my blog so I did not get humiliated on the internet :-) j/k
It is funny though that I got a comment from a guy who complained when I had written the Indivision gives rock solid image stability, he told me that the image flickered a bit in hires-laced, almost as if I had tricked him into buying it. Hey man, thats just the way interlace modes look when they are flicker-fixed lol, even UAE screens in interlace looks like that!
Jens, you should sell the A600 Apollo, I guess it would sell in thousands of units, especially if you sell if for €99.99! ;-)
The funny thing is that those who scream loudest are the ones disqualifying themselves. I was pointed to the amigalounge blog and nearly laughed my a** off scrolling all the way down: First, he's complaining about pricing, wants to make his own Amiga designs (yeah, right, we've seen iWin before). Then he'd sell Indivision ECS at 69 USD in "thousands". Sure, a market that's good for a few hundred will take a few thousand extra units if it's only cheap enough. Didn't know that rule yet, maybe that's what I made wrong the past 15 years?
However, his random photos truly make up for all the fuzz that this person is babbeling. He's great at putting out numbers without background. He's arguing, and it even looks right if you don't ask any questions (such as "does the developer need to eat?"). He argues and argues, and then places this "random photo" in his blog:
http://www.amigalounge.com/uploaded_images/argue091204ek6-779239.jpg
Thanks buddy, you've made my day :-)
Jens
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You have one sale here, love to try this card on our CDTV and 50 inch Plasma TV.
Do we really need this card to plug a classic machine on a TV? I do not think so.... Why not use an RGB 2 Scart cable or something similar?
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The funny thing is that those who scream loudest are the ones disqualifying themselves. I was pointed to the amigalounge blog and nearly laughed my a** off scrolling all the way down: First, he's complaining about pricing, wants to make his own Amiga designs (yeah, right, we've seen iWin before). Then he'd sell Indivision ECS at 69 USD in "thousands". Sure, a market that's good for a few hundred will take a few thousand extra units if it's only cheap enough. Didn't know that rule yet, maybe that's what I made wrong the past 15 years?
However, his random photos truly make up for all the fuzz that this person is babbeling. He's great at putting out numbers without background. He's arguing, and it even looks right if you don't ask any questions (such as "does the developer need to eat?"). He argues and argues, and then places this "random photo" in his blog:
http://www.amigalounge.com/uploaded_images/argue091204ek6-779239.jpg
Thanks buddy, you've made my day :-)
Jens
Hey, let me just point out, that I am not Arguing and arguing. I have 2 blogs on the subject and thats it. And One is just stating all the flack i am getting over this. I have never in my blogs mentioned prices before and have even justifed in past threads the price of the Indivision 1200/4000 boards (for they are "one of" boards meaning people will only buy one of), and I even mention that we all apreciate the fine work you are doing, and an it even has an appology to Amigakit for blaming them on the price.but It is my Opinion that the ECS is over priced. Period.
Red's seem to have a much better price on it than Amigakit and I will probably be ordering one from him. NOT 6, like I had originaly wanted (and planned on buying), but just one, and that was before we found out it could do dual monitors (heck, when I found that out, I was planning on 8). So the price point lost 5 (or more) sales.
This will be the last comment I post on the matter here, because, obviously I can't and will not EVER EVER EVER get my point across, and nobody sees my point of view.
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So the price point lost 5 (or more) sales.
Truth is, it *wins* one sale, as you're pointing out. My bills are paid by sales, not imaginary figures. You claim that I'd be making $10 on every unit if I sold it at $69? OK, deduct taxes, deduct dealer margin, deduct Oliver's salary and - oh, nothing left to deduct. Pardon, I forgot, you know that chip dealer who pays in cash if you take FPGAs off of him. Care to share the phone number?
Laser stencils are for free. Machine programming is done by dwarfs during the night when everybody else is sleeping. Eating is overrated. Banks don't want money, they already got plenty. Electricity comes out of the wallplug. Quality control is not necessary, they'll work, and if they don't, the warranty will fix it (which is for free as well). Boxes and manuals also print themselves. Think of it: Paper is made from trees, so it's free - trees don't charge us for growing. Software updates are also free. Why? Look at icomp's website, they're all free for download. You can download as many times as you want, and they don't charge extra!
Man, is Canada really that far out?
Jens
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Truth is, it *wins* one sale, as you're pointing out. My bills are paid by sales, not imaginary figures. You claim that I'd be making $10 on every unit if I sold it at $69? OK, deduct taxes, deduct dealer margin, deduct Oliver's salary and - oh, nothing left to deduct. Pardon, I forgot, you know that chip dealer who pays in cash if you take FPGAs off of him. Care to share the phone number?
Laser stencils are for free. Machine programming is done by dwarfs during the night when everybody else is sleeping. Eating is overrated. Banks don't want money, they already got plenty. Electricity comes out of the wallplug. Quality control is not necessary, they'll work, and if they don't, the warranty will fix it (which is for free as well). Boxes and manuals also print themselves. Think of it: Paper is made from trees, so it's free - trees don't charge us for growing. Software updates are also free. Why? Look at icomp's website, they're all free for download. You can download as many times as you want, and they don't charge extra!
Man, is Canada really that far out?
Jens
I was using those number as an example, but your development costs should be a whole separate cost then your production costs. I agree that all costs are covered by the profit margin,and yes, you have to eat etc. I look at long term growth, not can I get my money back tomorow. You say the numbers are small on the Amiga market, but how many people are out there not buying any new product because the prices are too high? (for example, how many people would by a SAM if the price was under $200?)
Yes, I am an idiot, yes, I "have no clue" bla bla bla.
this is getting us no where, lets please put a stop to the bickering. the simple fact is that its a done deal, no mater what I say, the price is the price period. You are setting a price and I have no say in that. Until I make a competing product, and set the price point where I want it, then I will just STF up.
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quarkx: thanks.
Great work Jens !! You are the master of new amiga hardware, the price is what i would expect...
Keep it up :)
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Do we really need this card to plug a classic machine on a TV? I do not think so.... Why not use an RGB 2 Scart cable or something similar?
Duh. Because they are not for linking it to a tv
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@Quarkx
We sell the Indivision ECS (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/USD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918) for $125.61 US Dollars
We are selling the Indivision ECS (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/USD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918) for the same price as other resellers - so I dont understand why you think we are more expensive? Unless you are comparing US Dollars incorrectly with Canadian Dollars.
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I was using those number as an example, but your development costs should be a whole separate cost then your production costs. I agree that all costs are covered by the profit margin,and yes, you have to eat etc. I look at long term growth, not can I get my money back tomorow. You say the numbers are small on the Amiga market, but how many people are out there not buying any new product because the prices are too high? (for example, how many people would by a SAM if the price was under $200?)
Yes, I am an idiot, yes, I "have no clue" bla bla bla.
this is getting us no where, lets please put a stop to the bickering. the simple fact is that its a done deal, no mater what I say, the price is the price period. You are setting a price and I have no say in that. Until I make a competing product, and set the price point where I want it, then I will just STF up.
If you think that the R&D costs should not be re-couped in the unit cost in such a small market, where you will never have the turnover to re-coup it otherwise, then yes sir you are an idiot.
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Truth is, it *wins* one sale, as you're pointing out. My bills are paid by sales, not imaginary figures. You claim that I'd be making $10 on every unit if I sold it at $69? OK, deduct taxes, deduct dealer margin, deduct Oliver's salary and - oh, nothing left to deduct. Pardon, I forgot, you know that chip dealer who pays in cash if you take FPGAs off of him. Care to share the phone number?
Laser stencils are for free. Machine programming is done by dwarfs during the night when everybody else is sleeping. Eating is overrated. Banks don't want money, they already got plenty. Electricity comes out of the wallplug. Quality control is not necessary, they'll work, and if they don't, the warranty will fix it (which is for free as well). Boxes and manuals also print themselves. Think of it: Paper is made from trees, so it's free - trees don't charge us for growing. Software updates are also free. Why? Look at icomp's website, they're all free for download. You can download as many times as you want, and they don't charge extra!
Man, is Canada really that far out?
Jens
Ever considered a 2nd carreer as stand-up comedian ?
Edit:
Just that noone gets that wrong.... I think the price is quite o.k. for such a complicated product in such a small market.
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@Quarkx
We sell the Indivision ECS (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/USD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918) for $125.61 US Dollars
We are selling the Indivision ECS (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/USD.php?url=product_info.php?products_id=918) for the same price as other resellers - so I dont understand why you think we are more expensive? Unless you are comparing US Dollars incorrectly with Canadian Dollars.
I was quoting your Canadian price $138.32 (which I did NOt realise unitil not that it was Canadian Dollar) and Red's quote was 125, which was in US I am sorry, they Both come out to $138-$139 or so Canadian. So I apologize if it looked like Red was way cheaper.
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Hey, let me just point out, that I am not Arguing and arguing.
I would have to disagree with you and point to how many posts you have made in just this thread as evidence.
Red's seem to have a much better price on it than Amigakit
Another stupid remark that is incorrect. You really should have quit this thread a long time ago, or just admitted that you were wrong and then dropped all of you idiocy. Your statements are incorrect and your logic is faulty.
This will be the last comment I post on the matter here, because, obviously I can't and will not EVER EVER EVER get my point across, and nobody sees my point of view.
I wish it had been your last comment on this matter, but you just keep going on and on without making any sense and then complain that you are not understood. We understand you perfectly, but you are just plain wrong and don't want to admit it. Grow UP!
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I would have to disagree with you and point to how many posts you have made in just this thread as evidence.
Another stupid remark that is incorrect. You really should have quit this thread a long time ago, or just admitted that you were wrong and then dropped all of you idiocy. Your statements are incorrect and your logic is faulty.
I wish it had been your last comment on this matter, but you just keep going on and on without making any sense and then complain that you are not understood. We understand you perfectly, but you are just plain wrong and don't want to admit it. Grow UP!
Maybe you better go back and re-read the posts.
for your first quote , jen was talking about my blog, not this thread.
second, I did admit and apologise that The currency was listed in Canadain Dollars on Amigakits website and in US dolars on Red's making Red's A buck MORE than Amigakits.
so instead of jumping on your high horse, because YOU think I am wrong, read the posts properly.
but enough already. I am getting sick of this childish behavour. YOU need to grow up, but i guess you just want to troll instead.
If you want me to stop posting, then You quit making blatently false and missinformed acusations in which I need to clarify the comment, and defend myself.
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Maybe you better go back and re-read the posts.
You go back and spell/grammar check your posts first. Reading them the first time was painful enough.
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Maybe you better go back and re-read the posts.
for your first quote , jen was talking about my blog, not this thread.
second, I did admit and apologise that The currency was listed in Canadain Dollars on Amigakits website and in US dolars on Red's making Red's A buck MORE than Amigakits.
so instead of jumping on your high horse, because YOU think I am wrong, read the posts properly.
but enough already. I am getting sick of this childish behavour. YOU need to grow up, but i guess you just want to troll instead.
If you want me to stop posting, then You quit making blatently false and missinformed acusations in which I need to clarify the comment, and defend myself.
You just don't know when to quit do you? I don't care what you say Jens was writing about, I was pointing out that you are just arguing here in this thread (so I doubt you act differently anywhere else) and "I" am not the only one who thinks you are making an idiot out of yourself with your ideas on how Jens should market his gear. I have not made any "blatently false or misinformed accusations" about you or anything you have posted in this thread.
By continuing to "Argue" in this thread you just confirm what I posted about you in my first quote and continue to act childish, what are you 14 years old?
Don't worry, I won't waste another keystroke on you or this stupid topic that you think you know better on how to market Jen's work.
(I am sure you will have to make some more stupid responses to this and other posts as you are too immature to know when to quit)
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Before this gets too heated, could we please just get back on topic? That's everyone, myself included.
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Before this gets too heated, could we please just get back on topic? That's everyone, myself included.
Ok Mr Red :)
I wonder if version 2 could be re-flashed to add AGA support...is it technically possible peoples?
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Ok Mr Red :)
I wonder if version 2 could be re-flashed to add AGA support...is it technically possible peoples?
AFAIK Jens said no earlier. :-/
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AFAIK Jens said no earlier. :-/
Notice I said version 2...with an FPGA Alice ;)
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Sorry Red and everyone else. I just get riled up sometimes and have to respond to some of the bullsh!+ that gets spouted around here from time to time.
Notice I said version 2 ;)
I think a softcore AGA for FPGA is still a ways off from being completed, but maybe some day what you are asking for will be possible.
I don't doubt that some would want AGA for their A500/A1000/A2000/CDTV, but for me, I think I would just rather use my A1200 and/or CD32.
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I think a softcore AGA for FPGA is still a ways off from being completed, but maybe some day what you are asking for will be possible.
I don't doubt that some would want AGA for their A500/A1000/A2000/CDTV, but for me, I think I would just rather use my A1200 and/or CD32.
Yep I realise that it won't be happening anytime soon, I just wondered if it was technically possible (because AGA is not that much different to ECS).
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Notice I said version 2...with an FPGA Alice ;)
AGA requires quadroupling the data rate, which is pretty much impossible on 2-layer boards without a wider data bus.
AGA reaches twice the data rate with a twice-as-wide data bus and another factor of two with double-CAS accesses (kind of a burst). This would have to be translated into a burst of 4 16-bit words in order to get the data across from the Agnug socket to the Denise socket.
Given the short data-valid-window and the extremely flaky rise/fall times of the chip data bus, such a transfer would be very flaky, if not impossible. It all comes down to making a new mainboard.
In my opinion, you don't really need AGA in everyday life. My A3000 was my favourite Amiga for quite a long time, mainly due to it's compactness and the built-in flickerfixer. I guess this place will be taken by an A500 or A600 now, as it can run without any moving parts (CF card instead of HD, fanless power supply).
Jens
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AGA requires quadroupling the data rate, which is pretty much impossible on 2-layer boards without a wider data bus.
AGA reaches twice the data rate with a twice-as-wide data bus and another factor of two with double-CAS accesses (kind of a burst). This would have to be translated into a burst of 4 16-bit words in order to get the data across from the Agnug socket to the Denise socket.
Jens
Jens,
Excuse my lack of understanding but would it not be possible to link these 2 FPGA addons together externally (an extra data-bus?)
Regardless, I'm personally more interested in an improved AGA design using FPGA(S). Either as an add-on to existing AGA motherboards, new MB's for classic cases or just new mini ITX style motherboards :)
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AGA requires quadroupling the data rate, which is pretty much impossible on 2-layer boards without a wider data bus.
AGA reaches twice the data rate with a twice-as-wide data bus and another factor of two with double-CAS accesses (kind of a burst). This would have to be translated into a burst of 4 16-bit words in order to get the data across from the Agnug socket to the Denise socket.
Given the short data-valid-window and the extremely flaky rise/fall times of the chip data bus, such a transfer would be very flaky, if not impossible. It all comes down to making a new mainboard.
In my opinion, you don't really need AGA in everyday life. My A3000 was my favourite Amiga for quite a long time, mainly due to it's compactness and the built-in flickerfixer. I guess this place will be taken by an A500 or A600 now, as it can run without any moving parts (CF card instead of HD, fanless power supply).
Jens
I agree Jens, AGA is not really needed, but I understand the desire of many who always wanted to be able to get AGA working for their A500, A600, A2000 and A3000 Amigas. Some would even want it for their CDTV and A1000's. It all goes back to the old Amiga way of doing more with less and keeping old gear working for years and years past any reasonable time it should have been used. I have plenty of AGA Amigas, so I don't have such a desire to make my ECS Amigas able to run AGA games and programs. Your IndivisionECS is all the display enhancement I need or want for an A500 & A600 and my big box Amigas all have graphic cards in them.
Thanks again for creating all the great Amiga gear you have produced. Keep on providing us Amiga fans with new ways to enjoy our hobby.
Any chance that you will complete an 030 accelerator for the A600 that will work with the A603 and IndivisionECS? That would really get the A600 close to being a replacement for the A3000 you mentioned. Specially if it could be fitted with a USB controller to connect an external CDRW drive.
Edit: NovaCoder, I think that NatAmi, or an add-on for Jens own C-One computer would be better suited for duplicating and hopefully improving upon the AGA chipset than trying to squeeze it into 2 IndivisionECS boards. I think the dream of having AGA on any of the old ECS or OCS Amiga models is just that, a Dream or a Fantasy.
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Jens,
Excuse my lack of understanding but would it not be possible to link these 2 FPGA addons together externally (an extra data-bus?)
That would work jst as one of those old framebuffer cards (read needs extra drivewr, not suitable for WB use). But you don't need 2 for this as the IndivisionECS allready has an Graffiti-Emulation built in.
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Sadly Compact flash card from my cf-ide68k is going over Denise chip. So thinking about building adapter to "move" Denise socket elsewhere, any ideas where to get connectors for flatcable? (Like ones they used in kickstart switchers).
As I wrote before, ribbon cables are a no-go for highspeed designs. Whatever success one might have, it's not guaranteed. I'd like to discourage everyone from using ribbon cables, and encourage some smart mods - grinding down the plastic mounts is a good start, maybe the next steps would be giving the keyboard a slightly steeper angle in order to gain valuable millimeters.
I have attached two more pictures: One that shows how you can remove the additional socket from the bottom of Indivision to further reduce it in height, and the other that's taken from a very flat angle in an A500.
Note that you need to double-check the type of socket in your A500, as some might not have enough room for the chip that's underneath the socket. If all else fails, you could un-solder the old socket from the mainboard and solder in the bottom socket that comes with Indivision, this give the safest contact and the lowest possible profile, still maingaining the "easily removable" property of the product.
Note that with the "extreme low profile"-installation, you have to bend a few parts away. The EMI filters (3-pin disk-like thingies) are very sensitive to bending, the middle pin often breaks away, so you should be ready to drop a glob of solder on it to give it back it's original function.
Jens
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would it not be possible to link these 2 FPGA addons together externally (an extra data-bus?)
That would be possible if I'd make two new designs: One for the Agnus-socket and another for the Denise socket. Re-using the existing Indivision ECS design would not be an option, as there's neither room, nor IO-pins left for an additional data bus.
Doing two new designs that go together anyway doesn't make sense either, especially with the fairly artificial separation of the Amiga chipset into three chips (granted, they couldn't get the amount of transistors on a single chip back then). So today you'd take a single FPGA, place it into the Agnus socket and do Alice *and* Lisa in there.
However, you still would be limited to a 16-bit data bus from the processor, so one important AGA property - the 7MB per second performance on chipmem - would not be there if you don't own an A3000. If you'd want to reach that, you need to put the CPU directly on that AGA-card as well, resulting in "almost an A1200" on that expansion board that's mounted in the flaky 84-pin socket. In other words: We're back to a new motherboard.
Jens
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Sorry Red and everyone else. I just get riled up sometimes and have to respond to some of the bullsh!+ that gets spouted around here from time to time.
I think a softcore AGA for FPGA is still a ways off from being completed, but maybe some day what you are asking for will be possible.
I don't doubt that some would want AGA for their A500/A1000/A2000/CDTV, but for me, I think I would just rather use my A1200 and/or CD32.
I'm pretty sure the Natami team have already done this (AGA softcore)...
...
...
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But remember, they have noooooooo idea what they are doing...and Jens should never collaborate with them...because, you know, their current jobs gives them ZERO credibility...
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Think the difference is that Jens has produced many things. Where as the natami team have actually produced just dreams and talk
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Do we really need this card to plug a classic machine on a TV? I do not think so.... Why not use an RGB 2 Scart cable or something similar?
I have been thinking about the RGB cable too since the RGB cable gives very crisp output, but as I understood the image on a 50" plasma which have VGA input is going to look better from an Indivision than from an A500 with an RGB cable connected to it?
I do not know how TV's work but LCD/Plasma scale the image to fit the resolution of the TV, and sometimes this scaling can look bad.
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I have been thinking about the RGB cable too since the RGB cable gives very crisp output, but as I understood the image on a 50" plasma which have VGA input is going to look better from an Indivision than from an A500 with an RGB cable connected to it?
I do not know how TV's work but LCD/Plasma scale the image to fit the resolution of the TV, and sometimes this scaling can look bad.
First of all, not all TVs support the 15khz horizontal/50Hz vertical frequency that an Amiga sends out. Although these are the frequencies that have been used for TV for decates, some "modern" TVs require PC frequencies at their RGB input. If your TV supports these low TV frequencies on the PC input, you're lucky and a basic display is possible without Indivision ECS.
You might still want to think about an Indivision, there is a number of advantages:
- scanline emulation
If you really plan on using your Amiga on a modern Plasma TV, you don't see the classic scanlines that a lot of games are designed for. Games mostly look better if you watch them on a CRT, but the flicker and radiation makes it a fairly unhealthy experience to your eyes. Modern displays are a lot better for your eyes, but you're trading the classic look. Indivision even gives you the classic look on a moden display.
- proper de-interlacing
Some TVs do de-interlace, which is mostly called "100Hz technology" in Europe. However, they often use comb-filters on top of that, which distorts certain pictures that are pretty normal on an Amiga workbench. Indivision AGA leaves the image unchanged and sends it to the display exactly the way it was sent from the computer.
- Graffiti built-in
Maybe not the killer-application, but it increases the number of colours on a lores screen. Programs that are written for the Graffiti will display the correct gfx instead of the broken-looking command&pixel data that would be displayed on a normal TV
- HighGFX support
HighGFX is a package that adds more screenmodes to your Amiga, but it does it at a price: Sync frequencies are extremely off the standard, and only a small amount of true multisync monitors can really display these modes. With Indivision ECS, the output frequency is always at VGA levels or higher, so the probability of a good display will be increased by magnitudes.
- PAL output at 62.5Hz
If your TV is an NTSC product, it may have a minimum vertical frequency of 60Hz, just like many PC monitors have. Unfortunately, many games and demos on the Amiga are switching to PAL, mostly un-noticed by the user if they used a 1084 monitor before. If you're trying to give a PAL signal to an NTSC TV, you will most probably see a "mode not supported" (or similar) warning, if you see a warning at all. Indivision ECS has a mode where the output frequency is not just twice as high (as it has been on other flickerfixers for the past 18 years), but 2.5 times higher. This results in 39kHz horizontal and 62.5Hz vertical frequency, which is well within the range of most monitors and TVs with PC input. Although this is asyncronous to the Amiga's vertical blank, tearing effects are fairly low due to the syncronisation between the pictures. If your TV supports 50Hz, you can even de-grade to the classic "x2" flickerfixer type and have no tearing at all (provided that your TV doesn't introduce tearing on it's own).
- ECS Denise built-in
Last but not least, you upgrade your computer if you don't already own a Hires Denise (the ECS Denise). Even if you only have an ECS Agnus, but an OCS Denise, the computer will find an ECS Denise and offer you the new screenmodes associated with ECS, such as productivity and S-Hires modes. Productivity may not be all that interesting, as it was an attempt to get around the flickerfixer problem (which is solved by Indivision anyway), but S-Hires gives you quite some resolution on the workbench - ever seen 1280 by 512 pixels flicker-free on an almost-unmodded Amiga? Note that the ECS modes will only be dispalyed correctly on the Indivision output. While the 23-pin RGB output remains active, it will display garbage in a setup where you use an ECS screenmode with an OCS Denise.
We even have more in the works, but that's nothing I can reveal at this point. It's not yet clear if we can really have these features in the product, but I'll keep you updated here. The hardware is final, and while Oliver keeps developing, I have launched production today: All parts have been confirmed and PCB production has been started. If all goes well, assembly will be done during the last week of this month.
Jens
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Supergreat!
So... now you have time for a CD32 clockport adapter? :)
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Supergreat!
So... now you have time for a CD32 clockport adapter? :)
Unfortunately, that has never been on my todo-list. I have to finish Chameleon for the C64, and I also need to work on a huge non-retro project.
Jens
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We even have more in the works, but that's nothing I can reveal at this point. It's not yet clear if we can really have these features in the product, but I'll keep you updated here. The hardware is final, and while Oliver keeps developing, I have launched production today: All parts have been confirmed and PCB production has been started. If all goes well, assembly will be done during the last week of this month.
Jens
:D: good luck Jens, and well done for all your hard work!
p.s. I'm still waiting for the big one ;)
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Great info, great product, service and feedback, as usual!
I am falling off my chair with excitement when I speculate what we might be able to do with Clone-A since a simple scandoubler has so many functions! :)
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Unfortunately, that has never been on my todo-list. I have to finish Chameleon for the C64, and I also need to work on a huge non-retro project.
Jens
:banana::banana::banana:
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What affect (if any) does the scan-rate conversion have on the smoothness of the scrolling?
Does the VGA cable provided reach the spot on the rear of an A500(+) below the floppy drive where it is suitable to drill a hole?
As the IndivisionECS is a re-creation of the Denise chip in an FPGA, what are the prizes for finding the first bugs? :)
(I'm sure it is upgradable, right?)
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- Graffiti built-in
Maybe not the killer-application, but it increases the number of colours on a lores screen. Programs that are written for the Graffiti will display the correct gfx instead of the broken-looking command&pixel data that would be displayed on a normal TV
I'd missed this before, this is actually quite interesting. A few PC conversions already exist that support Graffiti so it might be possible that you could run (for example) DOOM better on a little A600 that you could on a standard A1200 using the IndivisionECS.
Any chance you could also add Graffiti support to the IndivisionAGA with an FPGA update or would it require a new model?
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so it might be possible that you could run (for example) DOOM better on a little A600 that you could on a standard A1200 using the IndivisionECS.
Not with a 7MHz 68000 :)
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Not with a 7MHz 68000 :)
Mmmm not sure but it would be an interesting contest.
In the red corner we have a 7MHZ 68000 with a chunky 8bit display....and in the blue corner we have a 14MHZ 68020 with a planar 8bit display....ok, FIGHT!
:)
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Which brings us to the question of whether indivision-ECS will fit along with Apollo-630... will it? :)
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Which brings us to the question of whether indivision-ECS will fit along with Apollo-630... will it? :)
What is more important, will it fit alongside the unreleased A600 accelerator from Jens Schoenfeld (if it ever gets made) :) I imagine that Jens would make it fit.
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/A603_topview.jpg)(http://www.siliconsonic.de/news/T630_small.jpg)
The A603 RAM card will fit against the prototype, but the IndivisionECS hangs over the corner somewhat...
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Mmmm not sure but it would be an interesting contest.
In the red corner we have a 7MHZ 68000 with a chunky 8bit display....and in the blue corner we have a 14MHZ 68020 with a planar 8bit display....ok, FIGHT!
:)
The Graffiti was a device that when I first saw an advert for one in AmigaFormat (12 years ago?), I remember being a bit confused as to how it could work... So I sat down with a pen an paper and try to work through the idea... and once I had figured it out, I realised that it was probably the most brilliant idea ever :)
As I understand it, the Amiga sets up a 1 bitplane bitmap, and then the graffiti treats every 8 (actually I believe it was less than this) pixels as bits in a single chunky pixel.
If my understanding is correct, then for an 8bit chunky display, the maximum width would be 160 pixels with the graffiti (with either 256 or 512 pixels high). Unless the device can just treat the whole Amiga output as a single bitmap? Then we have 1280*512 bits = 81.9Kb, and if an 8bit 320*256 display is also 81.9kb... that would be a very acceptable lowres 8bit chunky display on an ECS machine!
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As I understand it, the Amiga sets up a 1 bitplane bitmap, and then the graffiti treats every 8 (actually I believe it was less than this) pixels as bits in a single chunky pixel.
Almost - Graffiti does this for four bitplanes at a time. Separation of the four bitplanes is done by setting a fixed colour palette in Denise, so each bitplane is sent out through one of the four digital-video-out bits of the 23-pin RGB port. If you read the Inside_Graffiti file on my support site, you'll find that the "internal" colour palette only uses the MSBs of the three colour values, plus the LSB of the blue value. Having the data separated that way, the hardware comes fairly easy and fits into two GALs (crammed, but it fits!).
The data format in Amiga chipmem is chunky, but not linear, as pixels from left-to-right are arranged in bitplanes 0-1-2-3-0-1-2-3-0-1-2-3 and so on. Still, manipulation of a single pixel only takes a single write, which makes things quite fast.
You're right that a true linear display is limited to 160 pixels (plus overscan).
Jens
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What affect (if any) does the scan-rate conversion have on the smoothness of the scrolling?
Like I wrote earlier, tearing will be introduced if you scan-up from 50Hz to 62.5Hz. However, it's not as bad as with ordinary scanrate converters, as the "cut" is always happening on the same spot (or two spots, to be precise).
Does the VGA cable provided reach the spot on the rear of an A500(+) below the floppy drive where it is suitable to drill a hole?
The VGA cable is the same part as for the AGA version, it's too short to fit under the A500 diskdrive. A longer cable would have caused more cost (which is a sensitive subject, as we learned in this thread), and it would have probably affected picture quality.
My first try for a "really nice" mod would be to remove the RCA audio connectors and add a 3.5mm audio jack, which is way more common these days. The space freed by the RCA jacks is big enough for the VGA connector.
As the IndivisionECS is a re-creation of the Denise chip in an FPGA, what are the prizes for finding the first bugs? :)
(I'm sure it is upgradable, right?)
Sure it's upgradable - it has a 1MByte flash that can hold up to eleven different FPGA cores. Depending on the screenmode, different cores are loaded automatically. On a change, the monitor loses sync for a fraction of a second and comes back with the new screenmode.
As for Denise bugs.. good idea with the prizes. I'll think of something - how about T-Shirts and vouchers :-)? (ducks and runs away....)
Jens
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Which brings us to the question of whether indivision-ECS will fit along with Apollo-630... will it? :)
The Apollo 630 even conflicts with the A603 memory expansion. Maybe I'm repeating myself, but Apollo accelerators should be trashed regardless of their supposed value. I do not guarantee anything if an Apollo accelerator is in the same computer as my hardware. I've had WAY too much support work in the past years because of flaky accelerators, overheating computers, failing power supplies. Everything solved by replacing the accelerator - I should have introduced this policy much earlier, would have saved a few years of my lifetime ;-)
Jens
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@Jens
wouldn't be possible to output PAL at 75Hz instead of 60Hz? Wouldn't be possible to show the odd frames twice? so you show the following frames: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 10... perhaps that helps to smooth the movement (or breaks interlaced screens)
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wouldn't be possible to output PAL at 75Hz instead of 60Hz?
That requires more memory performance, which is not fully tested at this point. The memory itself can do it, and the Fifos inside the FPGA are also rated much higher than what we're currently using them at, but I cannot guarantee that unless we have implemented it with the memory chips that will be mounted on the final hardware.
The memory vendor I chose has recently made a die-shrink from 110nm down to 70nm (unit is "nanometers"). Sample chips should arrive this week, then we can start testing if they work at the required frequencies. If they do, such a higher scanrate conversion would be possible. If they don't, we'll be limited to 62.5Hz for PAL.
If they keep their promises, we might even do 100Hz PAL, but they will have their reasons for not selling the chips to me unless I approve the samples.
Wouldn't be possible to show the odd frames twice? so you show the following frames: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 10... perhaps that helps to smooth the movement (or breaks interlaced screens)
It would actually be less smooth, as such a method requires a double-buffered framebuffer. You'd wait for a full frame to be transferred, then switch. I'd much rather update the picture when it really happens; anyway, we have lots of unused memory, so double-buffering might be an option we could add - switchable at the user's choice.
Jens
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The Apollo 630 even conflicts with the A603 memory expansion. Maybe I'm repeating myself, but Apollo accelerators should be trashed regardless of their supposed value. I do not guarantee anything if an Apollo accelerator is in the same computer as my hardware. I've had WAY too much support work in the past years because of flaky accelerators, overheating computers, failing power supplies. Everything solved by replacing the accelerator - I should have introduced this policy much earlier, would have saved a few years of my lifetime ;-)
Jens
but.. but.. I didnt ask "will it work", I asked "will it fit" :)
Strange that Apollo630 conflicts with A603, I have used various chipmem expansions over the years without noticing any weirdness above normal.
But I guess this boils down to "we need a new acc-card for A600", hehe ;)
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but.. but.. I didnt ask "will it work", I asked "will it fit" :)
It won't fit, the conflict between Apollo 630 and A603 is of mechanical nature. The A603 is quite big and also occupies lots of space inside of the A600.
Jens
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@Jens
I have the A603 in my A600 and it works great, but WHY did you put the
battery holder on the wrong side?! First one has to open the A600 and
place the A603 (all other A600 chipRam expansions did go under the trapdoor-
slot without opening the A600's case), and when the battery is dead after
a while, one has to open the case again It's very inconvenient.
I've also bought the IndivisionAGA a while ago and I'm very happy with it,
but I don't think I will buy the IndivisionECS for my A600 because of the
floppy drive removal. I use the fdd once in a while and want to keep my
A600 original.
Isn't it possible to produce a IndivisionECS for the A600 only? (Or better
yet an accelerator? ;)
Keep up the good work!
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Maybe I'm repeating myself, but Apollo accelerators should be trashed regardless of their supposed value.
There must have been huge fluctuations in production quality. My 1260 has been a nice, stable card. With an IDE-Fix Express, IDE is about 2 MB/s faster than my old Blizz 1260. Of course the Apollo SCSI option is crap, and 32MB per SIMM limitation is also annoying. But it's a nice card for AGA demos, and all my expansions work with it OK.
My Apollo 1230, on the other hand, is a complete POS. It might run for a few hours, or crash immediately... no telling when. And that's on motherboards with clean power and new caps.
If they keep their promises, we might even do 100Hz PAL
Crossing my fingers here. :)
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@Jens
I am amazed and excited by the work you and Oliver are doing. I have been hoping for a solution like this for my A2000/Video Toaster. I have a CSA Derringer Platinum 030 installed, will The Indivsion ECS fit? Also since it is compatible with the Video Toaster, is it compatible with Digital Creations DCTV? I have a rev 6 motherboard, I think 6.2 but I don't see the sticker any more. It might be hiding under the Derringer. Are both Agnus and Denise ECS chipsets on this revision 6.xx A2000 MB? I see this breathing new life into my Amiga. I can't wait to see it on a flat lcd screen.
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There must have been huge fluctuations in production quality. My 1260 has been a nice, stable card. With an IDE-Fix Express, IDE is about 2 MB/s faster than my old Blizz 1260. Of course the Apollo SCSI option is crap, and 32MB per SIMM limitation is also annoying. But it's a nice card for AGA demos, and all my expansions work with it OK.
My Apollo 1230, on the other hand, is a complete POS. It might run for a few hours, or crash immediately... no telling when. And that's on motherboards with clean power and new caps.
Crossing my fingers here. :)
This would be timing issues. The apollos are not buffered this is why they are faster than blizzards but a lot more unstable.
Whilst using apollos you really need to get relevant timing fixs done to mobos.
Never had trouble with a blizzard though
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@JJ
Yes loved my Blizzard 060 I had in my A1200, very stable but a hot little sucker! I used to pull the trap door off and and raise it a little on blockes then put an ordinary house fan by it when it was under heavy load. Usually rendering 3D animations.
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But I guess this boils down to "we need a new acc-card for A600", hehe ;)
agreed. :D
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This would be timing issues. The apollos are not buffered this is why they are faster than blizzards but a lot more unstable.
Yeah, my 1230 crashes on any kind of motherboard, fixed or not. Probably just a b0rked card though... I can't imagine they were all like that. The 1260 on the other hand is a gem.
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@Jens
Somewhat off-topic, have you ever thought of designing an accelerator card? Almost every A1200 accelerator card I've used has had memory access times a lot lower than is the theoretical peak for the CPU on the card. It would be rather nice to have something comparable to the CT60 :) Then see about an A600 version LOL!
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@Jens
I'm also interested in your thoughts on a new accelerator. :)
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@Jens
Somewhat off-topic, have you ever thought of designing an accelerator card? Almost every A1200 accelerator card I've used has had memory access times a lot lower than is the theoretical peak for the CPU on the card. It would be rather nice to have something comparable to the CT60 :) Then see about an A600 version LOL!
Think about where the IndivisionECS is ultimately going... And other comments by Jens in this very thread... If I'm right about this, you won't need/want an accelerator ;)
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@bloodline
I think I'd prefer something like the Boxer rather than a PCI card with custom chipset on them, if that's what you are getting at :)
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Think about where the IndivisionECS is ultimately going... And other comments by Jens in this very thread... If I'm right about this, you won't need/want an accelerator ;)
Ultimately, it's a new A600 motherboard :laughing:
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@bloodline
I think I'd prefer something like the Boxer rather than a PCI card with custom chipset on them, if that's what you are getting at :)
Oh no! nothing like that!!! I was referring to the very early CloneA concept, I've never been fan of the chipset on a PCI card... since I prefer to do as much in software a possible. :)
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Oh no! nothing like that!!! I was referring to the very early CloneA concept, I've never been fan of the chipset on a PCI card... since I prefer to do as much in software a possible. :)
Ok, I just googled "CloneA". Is this (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=CloneA) what you meant by the "big one" you've been waiting for?
:roflmao:
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some news from the production site:
I've been a little nervous about the first dual-sided production run on the new machines (new since 2008), but it was all going flawlessly so far. Backsides have been assembled last week, and we're now tweaking the machines for the other side. If all goes as planned, the manual assembly (DIP sockets, jumper and VGA connector) can start next week.
Time to place your pre-orders!
Jens
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Ok, I just googled "CloneA". Is this (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=CloneA) what you meant by the "big one" you've been waiting for?
:roflmao:
Very very funny Karlos.
:)
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Dualscreenmode
Demomovie
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?p=310384
Happy New Year!
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Dualscreenmode
Demomovie
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?p=310384
Happy New Year!
Ok, I see an A4000 (AGA) below the monitor. Where is the ECS Computer ?
HHaaa !! Sorry...I see now the A1000 !