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Author Topic: MuTools and more updated to V46  (Read 4638 times)

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Offline AmiDude

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2016, 12:27:50 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;817781
Actually, where is the hack here?

Well, believe it or not, this 68030 bug is reality. You probably haven't triggered it in your setup, or you haven't noticed or correlated a problem with this bug, but it doesn't go away from not looking. I'm only giving you a particular well-known manifestation of it.


So, you solved a 68030 bug. Good for you. I don't need it. As I said earlier;
My 030 based A1200 system is working perfect. Why change things then?
It's more logical to change things when a problem occurs. Maybe other people
have some use for your little program, but I don't. OK, clear now?
 

Offline AmiDude

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2016, 12:33:56 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;817798
And some people like to push their systems "to the limits".  Your point is?  :p


My point is? Read the above. And if people want to push their systems "to the limits",
then that's their choice. I'd like to keep my systems as "classic as possible".
Different flavours for different people. ;)
 

Offline paul1981

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2016, 02:53:14 PM »
Quote from: AmiDude;817802
So, you solved a 68030 bug. Good for you. I don't need it. As I said earlier;
My 030 based A1200 system is working perfect. Why change things then?
It's more logical to change things when a problem occurs. Maybe other people
have some use for your little program, but I don't. OK, clear now?


Your A1200 will work perfectly until you throw some software at it that doesn't. If you're happy with that notion, then good for you. Your computer will be better off with Thor's software though; he was only trying to make you aware of a problem that you may not have known about.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2016, 03:47:00 PM »
Quote from: AmiDude;817803
My point is? Read the above. And if people want to push their systems "to the limits",
then that's their choice. I'd like to keep my systems as "classic as possible".
Different flavours for different people. ;)


This thread is about some new software that some of us are actually pretty excited about (well, I tend to get pretty excited about any development for a 30-year-old computer, lol). You're obviously stuck in the 1980's. Why are you even commenting on it? Go back to playing with your Workbench 1.1. ;)
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
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Offline kolla

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2016, 04:15:42 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;817780
Well, the 68060 requires the MMU anyhow


How is that? And how about the 68040? Of course I ask this in the context of Apollo Core :)
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guest11527

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2016, 05:15:21 PM »
Quote from: kolla;817810
How is that? And how about the 68040? Of course I ask this in the context of Apollo Core :)

The problem with the 68040 and above (and to some degree also the 68030) is that they don't have a cache-inibit-in line anymore (and it's partially non-functional on the 68030, as said, as it only applies to read, but not to write accesses), so you can no longer turn on and off caching based on some hardware logic that identifies chip ram and/or custom chip/hardware IO accesses. This is how all GVP and CBM cards attempted to solve the caching issue for the 68030, or rather believed so. That \CIIN was non-working for write accesses was found out only later, and Motorola then declared it as "specification change" in the later versions of the 68030 stating that one should use the MMU.

So, one needs to disable caching by software one way or another, on the 68040 and 68060 for certain, on the 68030 with its small cache it usually goes unnoticed since the data leaves the cache so early that it does (typically) not matter much. Exceptions do exist, though.

In principle, the TTx-registers of the 040 and 060 are "almost sufficient" because they could map the entire lower 16MB as non-cachable (all of the chip ram, all of the hardware registers), even though this is a bit extreme (also all of Zorro expansion ram becomes non-cachable by that). The exec coldstart does exactly that as "best attempt".

However, it doesn't end there: Also, you need the MMU to make DMA working. Due to a side effect of the '040 and '060 copyback cache, you need to temporarily turn off copyback caching for non-cache-aligned DMA read accesses as otherwise a dirty cache-line could overwrite data read from disk.

In other words: Either full MMU control, or only writethrough cache and no copyback cache. Or no stable DMA. Pick your poison.

In case you wonder: No, the 040 and 060 bus snooper does not help because the bus snooper cannot snoop behind the Zorro bus drivers that may separate the CPU bus from the Zorro bus.

Concerning Apollo: Yes, Gunnar and I had a long dispute over the issue as I really had some doubts concerning this problem. It turned out that the Apollo core only implements a write-through cache, so the DMA problem does not exist, and otherwise uses a fixed (but in principle software-adjustable) cache control in page sizes of 256K. This is much too coarse for most useful MMU application, but fine enough to ensure that chip RAM and IO resources are not cached, while everything else can be cached. So in principle, the Apollo core is working in this respect, though not as flexible as I was hoping for.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2016, 09:12:29 PM »
Thomas - very interesting information on the caching. A good read.

Cheers!
 

Offline psxphill

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2016, 09:45:48 AM »
Quote from: AmiDude;817779
I don't own a bridgeboard and my system is véry stable and doesn't need software workarounds or any other hacks. Ofcourse, I can't speak for other people with different configurations.


Then why are you trying to speak for other people? If you have no use and aren't speaking for anyone else then I don't see why you'd comment on posts made by people who do have a use for it.
 

Offline Markus_Bieler

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2016, 10:24:59 AM »
:) Thanks - Danke - merci :)
 

Offline AmiDude

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2016, 10:26:52 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;817854
Then why are you trying to speak for other people? If you have no use and aren't speaking for anyone else then I don't see why you'd comment on posts made by people who do have a use for it.


I was refering to a comment from Drummerboy:
QUOTE:
"I am testing Muforce and MuGuardianAngel, and work very nice, providing stability to M1230XA Accelerator."

I happen to have the same accelerator. So next time, read the whole thread! Your comment to this post isn't constructive. :rtfm:
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 12:31:24 PM by AmiDude »
 

Offline AmiDude

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2016, 10:31:59 AM »
Quote from: paul1981;817806
Your A1200 will work perfectly until you throw some software at it that doesn't. If you're happy with that notion, then good for you. Your computer will be better off with Thor's software though; he was only trying to make you aware of a problem that you may not have known about.


I know all that, but for now everything is working perfect with the software I use. If, for any reason I'm gonna try out new software in the future, then we will see how things will work out.
 

Offline AmiDude

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2016, 10:43:56 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;817808
This thread is about some new software that some of us are actually pretty excited about (well, I tend to get pretty excited about any development for a 30-year-old computer, lol). You're obviously stuck in the 1980's. Why are you even commenting on it? Go back to playing with your Workbench 1.1. ;)

No need to be so denigrating! Believe me, because I like my systems to be as original and classic as possible, doesn't mean that I'm stuck in the 80's. And I can, like anybody else here, comment on every post. I was refering to Drummerboy's post.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 08:01:21 PM by eliyahu »
 

Offline psxphill

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2016, 01:48:40 PM »
Quote from: AmiDude;817856
I was refering to a comment from Drummerboy:
QUOTE:
"I am testing Muforce and MuGuardianAngel, and work very nice, providing stability to M1230XA Accelerator."

I happen to have the same accelerator. So next time, read the whole thread! Your comment to this post isn't constructive. :rtfm:

I did read the whole thread. Next time don't make wild assumptions before throwing around accusations.

How constructive do you think it is to reply to people who say it makes their system more stable, by saying that you have the same accelerator but you refuse to run the software? At best it's an odd post to make, at worst it could be you're trying to persuade other people not to run it. I don't know if there is something about Drummerboys configuration that requires this and yours doesn't, for all I know there is a hidden problem on your computer that you haven't noticed yet. When someone acts the way you do, then it doesn't instil confidence in what you say.

But if you don't want to run it then congratulations, you don't have to.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 01:59:31 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2016, 05:29:53 PM »
Quote from: AmiDude;817858
So go play with yourself for that matter, and shut the f**k up! :quickdraw:


Wow, thanks for turning an interesting thread about new software development into some bullsh**.  Another one for the block list. Good job, jackass. :(
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Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2016, 02:22:47 AM »
@Thomas Richter

Thank you very much.
Great software update. Its rare to get these sorts of low level things for classic Amigas these days, so this was a very nice surprise.
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline gregthecanuck

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Re: MuTools and more updated to V46
« Reply #29 from previous page: December 19, 2016, 04:35:46 AM »
@Oldsmobile_Mike

I was about to post the same as your BS comment. Thanks! :)