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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: ikir on August 28, 2004, 06:59:57 PM
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Eyetech website has been updated with some interesting news. There will be two different MicroA1 models, the C model (commercial) and the I model (industial).
Also a case, designed for AmigaOne is on the way, if Eyetech solds a good number of units. The complete news (also referring to XE and XC models), specs and others on Eyetech website.
Eyetech news (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/NEWS/TWONE001.HTM)
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no G4 yet :-(
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I think this looks very promising. The price is still a little high but I can finally afford it. :-D
The one thing that's a little bizarre is the industrial version is more expandable and less expandable at the same time.
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:banana: :banana: :banana:
... but seriously, that looks pretty damn attractive, I might end up with an A1 after all :-)
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is it just me or does the Industrial version seem superior for just a minor amount more (50UKP)?
i'd prolly end up going for one of those then!
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is it just me or does the Industrial version seem superior for just a minor amount more
Depends if one needs firewire & PC/104 and doesn't need an upgradeable CPU.
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FireWire is useless on Amiga until there is FireWire stack too.
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Does the commercial model only accept 256M RAM? And, what's the draw here just smaller size? There's (much) less expansion, less performance, and the same high price. What are they marketing to?
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@ itix
Not for AmigaOS, yet.
@ adolescent
Less performance? You can use a 1 - 1,25 - 1,4 ghz G4 on the Micro, as in the XE. When they will be available (The Frieden bros already have them in their A1s). MicroA1 is for who want to run OS4 in a small and cool mini-itx, or for industrial use like a webserver for example.
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Looks pretty good. :pint:
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I was intending to stuff one of these into a 1200 case as a low-end complement to my A1XEG4, but they're awfully expensive for a low-mid-range board. I'd rather have a socketed G3/600 for such a setup. It'd probably be much cheaper, too.
The pre-assembled dealer systems do sound appealing, though.
Once the boards start shipping, or some pictures emerge, I'll give them another look.
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Wow, for a G3 the price is high! One at $600 and the other at $700? Did you also notice OS4 IS NOT included in that price? Thats another $110 isnt it? I was thinking it would be a G4 and come WITH Os4 at these prices at lest. So what will a G4 upgrade be? Another $300 or $400 like the Mac G4 cards are? Look slike I will end up passing this time arround too.
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Eyetech should be taking a step forward, not 2 steps back :-? Radeon 7000? G3? Your not getting much for the money here. What is going on? :-?
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The CPU is not technically a "G3" from what I
hear. The micro-A1 cpu is made by IBM not
Motorola, and is suppose to be better than
a Motorola G4. I guess some benchmarks are in
order.
C Snyder
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One forward two back? You've got that right. I've got an ASUS ATI9200 card here that cost me a whopping $40USD. You can't convince me a whole generation and a half worth of chipset would have raised the price that much further. Sheesh. What ever happened to the Amiga being cutting edge? (Wait - that went away about 1987 or so.)
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G3?
Unless you factor in the Altivec unit, which of course is a factor for some number of applications, the 750FX and 750GX are substantially faster than the G4. The GX has 1 MB of L2 cache, that will make quite a difference for some applications (especially emulators)
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Thats another $110 isnt it?
Retailers and dealers pay 75 Euros to Hyperion for OS 4. The end user price depends on what they themselves want to earn from it.
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Unless you factor in the Altivec unit, which of course is a factor for some number of applications, the 750FX and 750GX are substantially faster than the G4.
If the code is special in that its perfect for a G3 and bad for a G4, and if the moonphase is at just the right level...
For the record, I love the G3. It's fast, and it runs cool, and I'm in no hurry to upgrade. But in no way would I consider it ever to reach the performance of a G4.
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If Hyperion only gets 75EUR, who keeps the other 25EUR?
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restore2003 wrote:
Eyetech should be taking a step forward, not 2 steps back Radeon 7000? G3? Your not getting much for the money here. What is going on?
They're releasing a competetively priced board. That's something they should have done years ago, and there would be twice the A1 users.
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is it just me or does the Industrial version seem superior for just a minor amount more (50UKP)?
Almost.. £50 difference before tax.
The specs for the industrial version are definately better, free memory socket, passive cooling, better expansion capability etc etc..
Only downside is not being able to upgrade the CPU, but then again maybe many people won`t need to.
(says the bloke with an AMD K6-450 PC :lol: !!)
Prices didn`t seem too bad, but then I saw that was before adding tax..and I like my kidneys where they are, oh well maybe Santa will bring one.
But hats off to Eyetech all the same, looks like they`ve done some great work on these.
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My take on it from what I've gathered from what's been said in interviews and at shows, is it is aimed at kiosk uses and similar where a small sized low heat low maintenence computer is needed. Like all of the PC itx boards I've seen, these are not made to be computing power houses.
Personally, I'm looking forward to the CX.
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:-D ... good news Eyetech.
Thanks,
redfox
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@Ikir
Anyone that spends $600 + $110 on a micro A1 + OS4 because it's "small and cool mini-itx" is crazy. Perhaps as crazy as Eyetech?
Sorry, I was anxiously waiting the micro but after seeing the cost it's never going to take off.
@Kenny
Competitively priced? Compared to what? Eyetech are pushing their OS4 monopoly to stick it to the very people that support them. Non-Amigans would never buy the platform because they don't care about OS4, and there are much better platforms available.
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µ-A1-I (for industrial).
I don't see the logic, here. Most PPC solutions are built-to-order for high volume, and if you're low-volume, you'll want to use less efficient off-the-shelf components to increase your flexibility. If IBM was making these boards, I could understand, but nobody is going to buy them from Eyetech unless they have no business sense whatsoever. This isn't a knock on PPC, but let's face it, nobody is going to buy 50 PPC boards at $600 each for a kiosk when they can get a prebuilt system from IBM will a full replacement service
guarentee. Most kiosk machines I've seen use Celeron-powered IBM desktops because they need the corporate support, not efficient hardware.
These mobos make sense for PPC developers who want a full desktop to write software for their embedded devices, but then they'd just get the "commercial' version. Who is going to buy one of these "industrial" models?
Competitively priced? Compared to what?
I don't think price has anything to do with it. Supply alone is a reason to be wary. If Eyetech wants to sell AmigaOne boards, that's great, but if they're trying to diversify their product line to extend outside the Amiga community, I doubt they'll find any real business, which is quite ironic.
1 PCI slot...
I still don't understand why people WANT motherboards with only one expansion slot. They must really like cheezy graphics and CPU-hungry on-board components. I'd like to know how much CPU time the hard drive controller and audio system use on the AmigaOne boards.
Yes, you can build a pizza box, but you still can't make a laptop. Besides, with the rise of flat-panel displays, I'm surprised more companies don't make sideways computers that mount behind the monitor. You can still get a machine with PCI slots if you do that.
CPU Cooler - £10.00
Why does everyone insist on using tiny HSFs for the CPU? I thought the PPC was supposed to be so cool. A plain, passive heatsink for $2 should do fine for such a chip.
One A1 reseller equiped their boards with Thermaltake Orb coolers. Despite their small size, they make a LOT of noise -- I know because I used them for a while. I don't recommend them at all.
...and it is cpu fan failure which is one of the major causes of unreliability in computer systems.
I've never had a CPU fan die on me. I've seen other peoples' computers with dead fans, but that's because they're clogged with dust and were kept on the floor. My uncle's computer suffered from the fan detaching from the heatsink completely because the fan screws were too tight and the plastic broke. Meanwhile, AmigaOne resellers are attaching their overkill copper fans with thermal tape. Just try an tell me the fan won't fall off in a year.
The biggest killers are dust, the lack of air filters, add the complete lack of experience with building and attaching themal solutions. I've been building computers for years and I could make a great passive cooler for Eyetech. I don't like what I'm seeing from the Amiga dealers at all.
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Besides, with the rise of flat-panel displays, I'm surprised more companies don't make sideways computers that mount behind the monitor.
Apparently this is just what Apple has done with the new G5 iMac, and the optical drive slots are at the side (like those Philips LCD TV's with built-in DVD player).
It just seems like this is another wasted opportunity for the Amiga. Falling farther and farther behind every month. Can't compete on price, can't compete on applications, cant compete on OS features, can't compete on technical specs. What else is left?
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They're releasing a competetively priced board. That's something they should have done years ago, and there would be twice the A1 users.
Lets see how competitively priced it really is. Values are taken from the Eyetech site.
Motherboard/GFX Chip/KMOS 'Name' licence is £130.00 or 194 EUR
CPU module 750Fx@800MHz is £170.00 or 253 EUR
256MB SODIMM is £39.00 or 58 EUR
CPU Cooler is £10.00 or 14 EUR
OS4 is £67 or 100 EUR
16% VAT = £66 or 99 EUR
That's in total £416 or 619 EUR without VAT and £482 or 718 EUR including VAT.
Really, this is not something I would consider competitively priced in G3-Radeon7000-256MB computer business.
..Next.
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FireWire is useless on Amiga until there is FireWire stack too.
It is also useless if the user doesn't have any need for it. Your point being (other than trolling)?
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For the record, I love the G3. It's fast, and it runs cool, and I'm in no hurry to upgrade. But in no way would I consider it ever to reach the performance of a G4.
Anything else to back that up? From what I have observed, the 750FX is faster than the 7451 and 7455 when Altivec is not used. At the same clock frequency, mind you.
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If Hyperion only gets 75EUR, who keeps the other 25EUR?
Dealers. They want to earn something as well I guess.
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Dealers. They want to earn something as well I guess.
:-? You mean they are not doing this because they love us ? :-?
:-P ;-)
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I still don't understand why people WANT motherboards with only one expansion slot. They must really like cheezy graphics and CPU-hungry on-board components. I'd like to know how much CPU time the hard drive controller and audio system use on the AmigaOne boards.
The same as they use on every other system you can buy from any other OEM these days; barely any, in practice.
Piping 44.1KHz * 16bit to a soundcard DAC is piping 44.1KHz * 16bit to a soundcard DAC, no matter how much you did or didn't pay for the card. UATA is UATA. I prefer SCSI too, but in claiming the integrated peripherals are less than you'd get from Apple or Gateway, get over it.
Yes, you can build a pizza box, but you still can't make a laptop.
You can't? D*mn, and you just gave away the 'killer app' for the uA1-I. PCI-104 allows you to inject power, and one big 'daughterboard' with the appropriate LCD controller (yes, @#%$# LVDS would've made this easier), charging apparatus/battery holster/PSU, and a Cardbus bridge would make a scary-flexible little system.
A scary-expensive one, too, and not one that'd win any prizes for thin size, but at least it'd be doable.
(Oh yeah: Gut a USB Happy Hacking or equivalent thin'n'light keyboard/pointer combo for input.)
Besides, with the rise of flat-panel displays, I'm surprised more companies don't make sideways computers that mount behind the monitor. You can still get a machine with PCI slots if you do that.
If you're talking about those designs the Germans showed off a bit back... I've been saying that for a while, too. However, ITX is still the favored form factor for this, because most people looking for 'cute' PC-in-monitor designs don't give a crap about expansion.
Why does everyone insist on using tiny HSFs for the CPU? I thought the PPC was supposed to be so cool. A plain, passive heatsink for $2 should do fine for such a chip.
Well, they switched to active cooling before anyone realized nobody'd finished the Linux support, and don't seem to have looked back. ;-)
I can understand that aspect, though, to the extent that AMD's gone to doing the same... Nobody needs a reputation for flakiness for dealers doing things that 'should work.' (Comparing and contrasting the Beige G3 in the house, various 486s, and the Via C3, a passive heatsink should be fine.. if it's the size of a tall K6-2 cooler and placed immediately within the path of airflow. But there's no retaining mechanism for something that heavy,* so welcome to catch-22.)
*A plastic 'spider' that clips around the edge of the board would work, in combination with thermal tape, but who wants to go through the trouble of fabricating when the design's already so overbudget?
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Hi Ikir
GREAT! . . . like promised ;-)
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The same as they use on every other system you can buy from any other OEM these days; barely any, in practice.
Note that integrated NV LAN (or any full featured MCP SB's functions) wouldn’t be classified "CPU-hungry".
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It is also useless if the user doesn't have any need for it. Your point being (other than trolling)?
Eh? This was from Seer:
Depends if one needs firewire & PC/104 and doesn't need an upgradeable CPU.
They are not going to write FireWire stack in one day and if the mA1-I is the only A1 board with FiWi I'd expect writing FiWi stack is not at top priority atm. Supporting USB stack is lot work already.
In Linux FiWi should be just matter of drivers of course.
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Anything else to back that up? From what I have observed, the 750FX is faster than the 7451 and 7455 when Altivec is not used. At the same clock frequency, mind you.
When you launch an altivec accelerated Moovid you will notice it.
Well... you'll notice it when you really want speed (3d stuff, video editing converting and playing etc).
Don't tell me that Altivec is useless please ;-)
It sounds as if Eyetech had lots and lots of G3s they bought 2 years ago for the A1-XE, all the customers choosed a g4 and now they don't know what to do with the room full of (now slow and expensive) G3s
A new G4 cpu is cheaper than 170pounds. A g3 may be ok if the computer was cheaper
I'm quite angry with the price of these boards... and the lack of a G4 option? I can't understand it!
I hope I don't sound trollish but I'm quite angry and dissapointed.
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@ Crumb
Read again: more speed than a G4 in applications which doens't use altivec ;-) These G3s have a lot of cache also.
Remember that you can plug (when available) a new module, a G4, or if there will a lot of buyers also a dual G4 module :-)
@Framiga
Hi mate ;-)
@all
Again, i know (or see at the Webbit show) a lot of people interested in this board and they are ex-amigans and some newcomers. Anyway we'll see, why starting saying that it will be a failure. Eyetech already managed to do 4 AMigaONe models (SE, XE, MicroA1-C, MicroA1-I). IMHO in our small market is already a big step.
Happy computing to all, be positive :-)
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@Crumb
Reading is not your strong point here is it!
The 750FX is FASTER than G4 at same clock WITHOUT Altivec. That is what was said.
Also, I think you miss the point about these MicroA1's. Mini ITX boards have never been about powerhorses with fast processors, fast video and the like.
The MicroA1 is about doing things well, silently and small with low power consumption just like a VIA Epia and the like. The 750FX can do that and the G4 can not.
If you want a power horse, you need the XE or XC.
EDIT: I have a 750FX and am only going to upgrade it if the 1.4 GHz G4 becomes available.
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The thing is, I've been waiting for these boards for quite some time. I still only use classic Amiga at the moment, but thought a micro-A1 would be a nice little machine to play around with. But its just too expensive (to me) to justify buying one.
I'm not necessarily critising Eyetech, they've just put it out of MY reach financially as a hobby machine - I can't see myself buying one now. If it was a g4 machine, maybe I could accept the price.
Before anyone accuses me of trolling, I'm not either 'red' or 'blue', but comparing price (I know that's not an important criterion to a lot of people), makes the micro A1 look unappealing compared to a Peg II w/G4.
[Remember, I don't own either]
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you'll notice it when you really want speed (3d stuff, video editing converting and playing etc
For 3D stuff I prefer a T&L unit on the graphics card...
Don't tell me that Altivec is useless please
Huh? Where did I say so? I just said that the 750FX is faster than an equally clocked 7451/7455. IBM CPU's are the better PowerPC's. I am anxiously waiting for the day that they integrate their 970 Altivec unit into the 750 design.
(now slow and expensive) G3s
Again, a "G3" (I still hate that stupid numbering scheme, it's like a Mot 750 and a 750FX are the same thing) is not slow. The 750 FX has twice the L2 cache than the 7451, and you *will* notice that.
A new G4 cpu is cheaper than 170pounds
Honestly, I don't know. But you need to complain to Eyetech not to me.
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uh folks,
Please check out the prices on industrial computers before you post please.
There is a huge price difference between comsumer PC's and industrial PC's
Socket 7 industrial PC's boards cost more than the uA1 also if you check out the prices on a PPC industrial Board you would find that they sell for well over twice the price of a uA1.
uh last I checked windows XP cost ~ $100 for the consumer version and ~$200 for the pro version. So the price of OS4.0 is really not out of line.
Also I see nothing wrong with making people buy the OS. Becuase if you buy the AmigaOS version of the board how else are you LEGALY going to run the OS. If you only want to run linux thats a different board without the OS4 uboot. So that argument doesn't work.
Also if you read the Posting you would see that the PCI slot is expandable. Also the Consumer version uses the same CPU board as all of the XE boards.
There are people currently working on making faster CPU modules available in the near future.
Kgrach
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I agree totally with you.
Mr. Hardware Computers is taking preorders for the Micro A1-I and the A1-C. We will also be getting some AmigaOne's (limited supply). The AmigaOnes are first order first serve. I am limited to 10 units. We will be selling whole systems and individual boards.Mr. Hardware Computers (http://www.mrhardwarecomputers.com)
sales@mrhardwarecomputers.com
631-821-2364
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The same as they use on every other system you can buy from any other OEM these days; barely any, in practice.
Assuming you do streaming only. When you add on mixing, 3D effects, filtering... then your CPU cycles will start to disappear real fast. Piping information is easy. I'ts procesing that's hard.
That's what many people don't realize about external USB2.0 hard drives. I was going to get one myself to replace my internal backup hard drive, until I realized that many external drives can suck between 25% to 50% CPU utilization. Ouch.
You can't? [regarding laptop]
Well, given the determination and fanaticism of the Amgia community, I suppose someone will try. But, it still won't be practical. :-)
I wonder how long an AmigaOne would last on batteries...
However, ITX is still the favored form factor for this, because most people looking for 'cute' PC-in-monitor designs don't give a crap about expansion.
Those mini-PC designs annoy me. Why make a mini tower a foot tall and put it beside the monitor when you can put it behind?
But there's no retaining mechanism for something that heavy,* so welcome to catch-22.)
That's the limiting factor with the "module" design. OK, you got your shiny new G4 or G5 in your AmigaOne. How do you cool the beast with something that won't crack the chip or fall off?
It doesn't help that the PPC is used in embedded applications where custom heatsinks are used. IBM isn't capping their cores except on the low-end G3, which doesn't really need a heatsink, anyway.
uh last I checked windows XP cost ~ $100 for the consumer version and ~$200 for the pro version. So the price of OS4.0 is really not out of line
I agree. Still, they'd probably make more money if they didn't build up for a huge release every five years. There should have been an OS 3.95 or whatever (stupid version numbers).
My take is that the "industrial" AmigaOne won't run OS4 -- if will run Linux. What's the point in spending that much money for a Linux box when you can build one yourself, and any Amiga user will buy the commercial board.
Again, I don't see the point of making the board. Seems to me Eyetech is suffering from supply before demand. Who is their customer? Do their supposed customers really want a board built like this?
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@Crumb
He's not saying that Altivec is useless (Just alittle trollish, you ask!)
Anyway, He just stated that when Altivec is not used it is in most cases.
People have to remember that itx is not going to have the power of a desktop in something the size of your palm. It has it's place. I see it as more of a media center/kiosk/webtv kinda component.
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@PulsatingQuasar
Bingo! Gold Star.
A DVR/media center kinda thing would be cool.. something better than a TIVO. Eyetech also stated that they queried their customer base, so I assume they have some industial customers lined up already.
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@Waccoon
Again, I don't see the point of making the board. Seems to me Eyetech is suffering from supply before demand. Who is their customer? Do their supposed customers really want a board built like this?
From the first paragraph of Eyetech's press release...
"We used the pre-production prototypes to gain feedback from a range of such potential customers to ensure that the specification and reliability of the µ-A1 met or exceeded their needs and therefore would ensure the commercial success of the product. That process is now complete."
Who are their customers? Don't know, Don't care, None of our business. Though you might see some of them posting here and , I don't know, maybe some in Asia. Alan Redhouse has taken a few business trips to China in the last couple of years. It' all speculation of course. Who their customers are, not really important. As long as they stay in business.
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Assuming you do streaming only. When you add on mixing, 3D effects, filtering... then your CPU cycles will start to disappear real fast. Piping information is easy. I'ts procesing that's hard.
Indeed, and we were promised some sort of miracle API for that 5 years ago... but who expects it to be ready? ;-)
That's what many people don't realize about external USB2.0 hard drives. I was going to get one myself to replace my internal backup hard drive, until I realized that many external drives can suck between 25% to 50% CPU utilization. Ouch.
This could depend on your USB host controller. (http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-usb-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg18460.html) Which does mean I'll have to go back and look at what those 50% utilization reviews tested with.
[Laptop...]
Well, given the determination and fanaticism of the Amgia community, I suppose someone will try. But, it still won't be practical.
Tough call. If Eyetech sticks with PCI-104 for a while, it could almost make sense. If marketed as a proverbial PAWS-104, it might even have some appeal as 'test equipment' in the broader embedded market. But it probably still wouldn't come cheap... and to be at all applicable to the consumer 'desknote' market, you'd want to come up with some way to clip to a normal PCI slot anyway.
Those mini-PC designs annoy me. Why make a mini tower a foot tall and put it beside the monitor when you can put it behind?
Well, it just hit me that it's a division-of-labor problem; many modern LCDs need either a weight or a complex stand, and it's better to incur the cost of shipping the brick (semi-literally) with the high-margin display than the low-margin case.
But inspired by photos claiming to be the new iMac, as well as Gateway's old attempt to compete with it... Therein lies the solution: Make an ultralight ITX enclosure that can bolt down to the VESA mounting points on the back of the monitor. You won't be able to fit a Prescott with heatpipes in it, of course, but an A1 or C3, active cooling (for reasons of weight), 12v supply and 2.5" drive should live... Might want to stick with an external optical movement.
(That said, that's one of the reasons for the shoeboxes -- they're flexible enough to be used if you *do* swingarm or wall-mount the display... and they riff on the Walker, so we should feel flattered, right?)
But there's no retaining mechanism for something that heavy,* so welcome to catch-22.)
That's the limiting factor with the "module" design. OK, you got your shiny new G4 or G5 in your AmigaOne. How do you cool the beast with something that won't crack the chip or fall off?
True, true... Except I lied. There are still through-holes for the standard GPU cooler spring-clip mount, right? The only problem is that nobody makes GPU coolers that tall (well, except nVidia, and those aren't passive), because they'd interfere with every other slot in the system. Now, if you *drilled out* a nice Socket 7 sink, you might be able to clip it on there... and if sticking by aluminum, it wouldn't be heavy enough to pull out that MegArray... but you'd have to pay someone to do the drilling, and that'd add enough in labor to beat the claimed $10 markup on $7 coolers.
It doesn't help that the PPC is used in embedded applications where custom heatsinks are used. IBM isn't capping their cores except on the low-end G3, which doesn't really need a heatsink, anyway.
How exactly do you cap a microBGA or whatever these things are? A better question would be why, if so easy to design around, they seem to need more discrete components around the chip than even an Intel-based design?
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I've been saying that for a while, too. However, ITX is still the favored form factor for this,
Note that SFF is the alternative.
because most people looking for 'cute' PC-in-monitor designs don't give a crap about expansion.
Define most.
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Kgrach
Search for Socket A(K7) or Socket 370(P6) based SBC instead of Socket 7(P5/K6) based.
Eyetech’s prices are similar to AMD's Geode NX(Socket A) development offerings.
Socket 7 infrastructure is not mass produced line compared to 2nd/3rd latest generation socket.
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The only problem is that nobody makes GPU coolers that tall (well, except nVidia, and those aren't passive),
Note that Geforce FX 5200 can be passively cooled(with a small heat sink).
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@ everyone???
Umm, I know this is a little off topic, however has anyone heard of when or if a new standared size ATX mainboard is bieng produced? DDR etc...
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@ Shades
That would be the CX, which is going to be a Mini/Micro-ATX board. If you wish to discuss it, please start a topic in the forums.
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Indeed, and we were promised some sort of miracle API for that 5 years ago... but who expects it to be ready?
The only sound API I've seen from Amiga so far is the "dancing potato" MOD player. :-)
This could depend on your USB host controller. Which does mean I'll have to go back and look at what those 50% utilization reviews tested with.
Yeah. I was looking into backup software recently and thought about getting an external hard drive. In the review I read, all the external drives sucked a lot of cycles, though they did vary quite a bit. I'll see if I can find the link again, as I read it a few weeks ago.
Note: The drives were tested with a HD benchmark program. It did not involve running actual backup software, which usually eats up a lot of CPU time because of the use of compression.
There are still through-holes for the standard GPU cooler spring-clip mount, right?
Are there? I thought the only holes were for the module mounts.
How exactly do you cap a microBGA or whatever these things are?
The same way they do it with northbridge chips -- with plastic. My point is not to disipate heat, it's to protect the chip from damage. I used to mount a 300 gram copper cooler on an AMD Thouroughbred B processor, and that was a real nail-biter, even with a shim. I really, really don't like exposed cores. AMD was insane for using the flip-chip design with their Athlons.
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@PulsatingQuasar&Ikir
I know that the 750FX is slightly faster in normal operation, but who cares? we don't have many OS4 ppc apps yet and the 68k apps will run faster than on the real hardware.
Trying to sell me a 750FX saying that it's a 10% faster than a g4 in integer/fpu operations won't make me want buy one. If I really wanted extra speed I would launch an Altivec version of the program. And the cost of a modern fanless 1ghz G4 is less than the price stated by Eyetech.
I think it would be better for eyetech to think twice what they are doing. Pegasos2/G4 exists and it's a far better price/value solution at the moment so give us at least a G4 option.
I prefer a G4/600 rather than a 750FX@800Mhz.
@Rogue:
my message wasn't directed to you but more to eyetech. I replied to your message because you were saying that in normal operations 750FX is faster than G4
@Argo:
Sorry for my english, I guess I should have used future "now you won't tell me altivec is useless uh?" instead of using a present verb.
Just check out the latest micro-ATX and barebone boards... they are getting smaller and faster, with fast XPs and P4s...
And it's ok about the industrial version because they won't need Altivec, but for consumers it's quite important...
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"FAQ"
"Does the commercial model only accept 256M RAM?"
No, it has one SODIMM socket equipped with 256M SDRAM.
"And, what's the draw here just smaller size?"
Yes. (?)
"There's (much) less expansion"
There's also more included. Like GFX and audio.
With the ricer card these miniboards can go beyond A1XE capability. (not talking about the I model yet)
The I model can most likely handle more "features" than the XE, except faster 3D GFX.
(It seems almost unlimited because of the stackable PC/104, firewire, etc.)
"less performance,"
Why so? They most likely deliver the same or better performance than A1XE with the same CPU.
The I model has faster ATA interface, faster ethernet, etc...
btw: Desktop cluster workstation. (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18160)
"and the same high price"
I think with these mini boards you get slightly more for slightly less.
"What are they marketing to?"
Amigans (AOS4 fans) and insustrial users (like themself ((multimedia kiosks etc.)), KMOS customers((broadband media whatever boxes))).
They might not be perfect. But they seem "ok" so far. (I can see myself buying the mini I modell ... as the new micro does not seem to appear any time soon)
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Still a bit too pricey, unfortunately...
And I was expecting something more about the specs... sadly, some "secret" infos that I eared wasn't true... :-(
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I know it's offtopic, inflammatory, trollish, etc., but as yet no one mentioned (µ-A1-C is the cheaper G3 version):
µ-A1-C - gbp349/euro499/USD599 (ex VAT/sales tax/ex 100 EUR for OS4)
Pegasos II G4/1000 Motherboard EU: €499.00 (excluding taxes and shipping)
I see a striking similarity, and even more striking differences. Honestly, I hoped for a way much more cheaper microA1...
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me too :-/
It would be cheaper for eyetech to buy genesi some PegasosG4, add their flashrom code and run OS4 on it that producing the A1s...
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"µ-A1-C - gbp349 (ex VAT/sales tax/ex 100 EUR for OS4)"
(including GFX and the licence required for AOS4 compatibility)
"Pegasos II G4/1000 Motherboard ..."
(£340.41 ex vat and with quarranteed AOS4 incompatibility)
"I see a striking similarity, and even more striking differences. Honestly, I hoped for a way much more cheaper microA1..."
I think there is no sense in comparing those two. A1 is really targetted to specific niches while peg2 is targetted to a wide open platform market (with 0% going to any OS R&D etc).
There is more sense in comparing MOS, AOS4 and their SW base and then to deside where to go and forget the rest.
For AOS4 branch:
uA1C 800 --- gbp349 (ex VAT/sales tax/ex 100 EUR for OS4) (Audio, GFX, MEM)
uA1I 800 --- gbp399 (ex VAT/sales tax/ex 100 EUR for OS4) (Audio, GFX, MEM, ATA133, PC/104, GigabitE, Firewire...etc etc)
A1XEG4 800 - gbp5oo (ex VAT/sales tax/ex 100 EUR for OS4) (slower CPU except Altivec, no Audio, no GFX, no MEM)
Now... uA1 start to look a lot more interesting. (if one is interested in the AOS4 side of world)
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slower CPU except Altivec
I see it as a new trend, but really, it's true, that there is little difference between same clocked G3 and G4 (in FPU for example, G4 has an advantage) - but it depends on the code (using altivec or not, optimised for G4 or not), and ain't XE's having those G4s running at 933 MHz, which makes this silly argument really moot?
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@Waccoon
That's what many people don't realize about external USB2.0 hard drives. I was going to get one myself to replace my internal backup hard drive, until I realized that many external drives can suck between 25% to 50% CPU utilization. Ouch.
USB uses a client/server protocol (server is your CPU :-D ) while Firewire uses a peer to peer protocol. One puts the load on your CPU while the other shares the load.
External Firewire HDs solutions are always faster and better.
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@warface
>ain't XE's having those G4s running at 933 MHz, which makes this silly argument really moot?
That does not make it moot.
Because they are sold as 800Mhz systems for some reason.
One can not buy them expecting them to operate 100% reliably @ 933 untill Eyetech says so.
Other thing is that L2 size of G4 is not set/fixed to 512kt on A1 systems. There must be noticeable difference with 800Mhz G4 with 256k L2 and 800Mhz G3 with 1024k L2, especially if (but perhaps it can) Artisia does not manage to deliver 100% of the FSB bandwidth.
Yet another point to consider with the XE model is that, "more quirks" seems to be one of it's features when comparing to mini boards, according to Alan Redhouse.
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@Kimmok
Because they are sold as 800Mhz systems for some reason.
The only reason is that Motorola didn't have 800Mhz parts in stock and they sent Eyetech 933Mhz parts for the same price. Eyetech doesn't want to sell them as 933Mhz because next batch will be 800Mhz and some users would complain of paying the same for a slower system.
So Eyetech avoids problems telling us that all their machines are 800Mhz models.
One can not buy them expecting them to operate 100% reliably @ 933 untill Eyetech says so.
If you set the voltage right and give the g4 a decent cooling system, you shouldn't get lock ups.
The first thing Eyetech should do is check what G4 revision the user gets and put the voltage jumpers according to the G4 revision. That would decrease the number of users complaining about lock-ups. And they should put a decent fan
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@ Rogue
I agree with you that the "G" labelling is unfortunate. It's not like there aren't several "G"enerations in each generation, right?
But while some people doesn't seem to like the "G3" mentioned in the same sentense as "A1", they certainly have no problems in proclaiming that "it is faster than the G4 anyway", like "G4" would be one CPU only! Well, the 750GX is indeed a very nice CPU (it will be interesting to see what frequencies will be available for the Pegasos2 BTW ;-)) and it may very well be faster than the old-timers 7451 and 7455 "G4's" for some general usage, but I believe that the Freescale 7447A certainly is up for a serious competition, *both* in performance *and* heat! IMHO, the 7447A is the best PPC CPU of all today (not counting the "G5" platform).
And there is this little "aber" in many peoples reasoning - they are for some reason leaving out the Altivec from the comparisons. The G4 has the Altivec, the G3 doesn't, and that *does* make a difference, even when comparing to the "old-timers" G4's.
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I must admit I am genuinely impressed with the Micro A1, the price is pretty good. To those who complain about price when pointing to mini itx X86, I would say this, a G3 will crap on from a great hieght any C3 or nemiah cored system, and is competitively priced with the more advanced big chip (P4-Geode-Dothan accepting as they are not mass produced boards in the same way that micro or standard atx boards are, they are industrial or engineering samples for the most part - read £1000+ just for the board)mini itx solutions out there, and has a similar power requirement as that of the C3 line. And this thing comes with 256Mb of ram, I mean just add hard disk and case and you've got a complete system! This is a KILLER bargain when you look at what its working against and its being offered to consumers (something that the P4-Geode-Dothan mini itx boards aren't) this is probably the fastest mini itx board out there for public consumption and offers in its consumer version more expandability then anything that the via epia's offer (a socketed CPU).
You folks comparing them to standard desktop PC's you miss the point entirely of mini itx. Its about size, noise and power requirements. ITs not about playing the latest games on!
But I'll go a little further, the onboard gfx is about the most advanced gfx I've ever seen in a mini itx board, certainly more powerfull then anything the epia's have on them and powerful enough to play all but the most demanding and advanced games currently available (Lets face it folks, if you want an all out powerhouse, you DON'T buy mini itx, micro atx or atx is where you folks need to go).
If I were on the market for a new system and had the cash, I'd be getting one of these. I would recommend anyone else interested in mini itx to do the same.
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Hmmm! Like the look of the Industrial System. I hope they make it as low profile as possible.
256Mb on board with SODIMM expansion. Don't know much about PCI-104
In my opinion the only bad thing is the GPU Unit, the R9200SE core is quite a way more advanced and not much bigger or more costly than the R7000 although don't know about liciencing issues. A R9600SE would be even better! Considering the GPU can't be upgraded should go for the most upto date possible.
Possible basic specs
a)G3/600MHz, 128Mb PC133, Radeon 7000(ve)32Mb
b)G3FX800Mhz, 256Mb PC133, Radeon 9200SE 64Mb
c)G4/G3VX*1GHz, 256Mb PC2100, Radeon 9600SE 128/64Mb
*G3VX Is my own invention IBM 90nm chip based on G3GX (without bugs!) and an integrated Altivec Unit.
Having established specifications allows S/W designers to have a firm base on which to program for. Just like games consoles and the old A500 days (just make sure your APIs are future proof)
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A 9200SE is more or less like a 7000 due to his 64bit memory bus... A full 9200 would make more sense...
If ppc750VX was available now it would be a very good option. Imho the best option now would be a fanless 1Ghz 7447A.
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You know, this actually has me considering becoming an A1 dealer, providing that MAI has infact fixed the bugs found in the Articia-S chipset. Anyone with a "fixed" A1 in southern florida willing to allow me to stress test your box to see?
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You won't find one, simply because IDE DMA is not enabled in the pre-release. You'll have to wait until the next update.
Regarding Linux you should wait too... I just hope MAI releases a DMA-stable kernel by november so industrial customers don't complain about slow hard disk access (if dma is disabled) or data corruption...
Anyway... If you go to an OS4 Show and find a Betatester he may allow you to stress the system (afaik they are testing the DMA enabled ide drivers). That would be a nice test while you wait for it to be released publically.
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You know I am a bit upset over the price myself. When i was at Amiwest I did talk to the dealer showing a prototype of one of these and asked about princing. I was told $1000 range with OS4, but I didnt want to believe it. not that its official and the price is as hight as it is I cant get one. I was thniking of more in the line of $400 without OS4.
Not to start a flame war here, but the price needs to come down. With the Pegasos at less money for a G4 its a way better value.
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AMD was insane for using the flip-chip design with their Athlons.
They fix that issue on the K8 generation i.e. AMD usually follow Intel in that particular area.
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@the_leander
ITX Motherboard vs ITX motherboard,
LV-670 @ $175 USD
LV-670M @ $225 USD
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For Motherboard: LV-670M
CPU:Micro-FCPGA Mobile Intel Pentium 4
Memory: One 184-pin DIMM socket
Chipset: Intel 845GV chipset with 82845GV GMCH and 82801DB ICH4
VGA:Intel Extreme Graphics, 266 MHz VGA core and 256-bit 3D engine
Rest of the spec reference no. 2.
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Reference
1. 130.00 GBP =~ $233.740 USD, www.xe.com
2. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article111-page2.html
3. http://www.silentpcreview.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=111&page=1
www.lippert-at.com's Mini ITX CPU board(inc gfx,6xUSB 2.0,GigaE, 'etc') with Pentium M CPU @1.6GHz cost 674 Euro. Hardly 1000 GBP.
According to 3D Marks 2001, ATI Radeon 7000 is about same level as Intel Extreme graphics.
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USB uses a client/server protocol (server is your CPU ) while Firewire uses a peer to peer protocol. One puts the load on your CPU while the other shares the load.
It makes that much difference?
I'll never understand why USB was built to be a server/client system. Almost all high-speed USB devices I've used and my customers have used (such as printers and digital cameras), have enormous problems running on a hub and will only work if plugged into a USB root. Believe me, I sell cameras, card readers, and other USB equipment, and deal with the USB hub problem ALL THE TIME.
It's such a widespread problem with so many different hubs, I can't help but blame the USB standard.
They fix that issue on the K8 generation i.e. AMD usually follow Intel in that particular area.
That's why I said "was". I ended up getting a P4 before the FX came out, though, and I'm quite happy with it.