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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: zee4 on June 20, 2003, 04:58:16 PM
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Work is underway to allow controllers to work with the PPC970: arstechnica reports (http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=8300945231&m=3470943335&r=3060960175#3060960175).
Does this mean we'll be running PPC970s (or G5's in Apple-speak)? See The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31331.html) for that story :)
To take advantage of the performance of the 970, "IBM is working to ensure that gcc will generate code optimized for 970". That's good news for anyone using the gcc compiler.
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?????
Where did you read "MAI"
?????
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"..."
* IBM is actively talking "to memory controller vendors with representatives in this room (Mai Logic and Marvell were exhibiting) and others, who will vend controllers supporting at least dual CPUs."
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If is it true..is a great news !
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This could be very great... :-D :-D
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The cat is out of the bag.
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Dang, I hate it when that happens. I bet someone worked REAL heard getting an angry cat into a bag...
I'm allergic to cats, so I'm _not_ gonna try to get it back in there.
Oh, you meant metaphorically? ;-)
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For both parties. Don't forget the second company mentioned there, Marvell.
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@HyperionMP
"The cat is out of the bag."
That would be great, but I can hardly believe it.
I think the cat is released to scratch some
"bad" posters faces.
You really really mean it?
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Mai support 970 when they couldn't even support G3's properly? :lol:
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Kennyr: well it woudl be a kinda quantum leap. But in theory it's possible.
Personally I belive a lot more capabilities of Marvell, they have lot of experience of high speed serial bus:es (like Gigaether and SATA) and a provenly working DDRram controller and MPX support on their existing chipset.
But we'll see what happens. Anyway this is coog chance for PPC to become efficient enough to realisticly compete with X86.
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@KennyR
You basing an opinion upon knowledge of one chipset. Would you mind giving me names of a company who hasn't had any bugs in chipsets?
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well, OS4 needs to get done first for any of this to matter.... otherwise you'll just have yet another expensive LinuxOne with no OS4..
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OS 4? Oh ya, that thing, almost forgot about it. :)
This could definatly be some good news, though I am wondering how many thousand dollars it will cost. :/
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The cat is out of the bag.
Eh ?!?
:-o
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Well, we are in 2003, are we?
Don´t know which drugs i´ve taken with my meal.
This has nothing to do with the AmigaOne /
AmigaOs4.0 end this year, has it???
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Well it will be interesting to see what is announced at Apple's WWDC on Monday.
I can scarcely believe Apple will have a G5 ready for sale on Monday...still....
It's not like them to announce something not ready for sale, after all, why kill their sales of existing product....so it appears they are going to announce on Monday...and it would almost have to mean they were nearing a release.
if they do this on Monday, wow!
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kenny, joanna it's past bed time for you kids...
and lest i forget:
mai sux, marvell rox
x86 sux, ppc rox
excellent reasoning...
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Yes, yes yes yes... :-D
But WHEN? :-x
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x86 sux, ppc rox...
The most sensible phrase in this whole thread! ;-)
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@KennyR
I still love that avatar.
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So *if* there will come something out of this, it means real life end-user products ... when?
[Developing a new chipset, bugtesting that, make necessary modification and go back to the manufacturing plant, developing a new motherboard around this architecture, bugtesting that, making necessary modifications and start production ...]
In 2+ years from now?
Pegasos III ? :-o :-)
Well, I'm not holding my breath! The Peg I is here today, the Peg II in a near future ...
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Electro Kids? ah well.. :-P
Next time.. try to find some fact before posting. Like what those companies have done so far, who uses their products and what their annual sales figures are.
And about X86.vs.PPC .. way out of this thread ...
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Wow! I want a AmigaONE with G5 8-)
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< Vulgarity >
Ooooo. I bin a naughty boy !!
:-o
:-D
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"That suggests that the company may be using an off-the-shelf PC chipset. The Power Mac G5s are expected to feature a HyperTransport-based bus, so it's possible Apple is using HT-enabled chipsets from a third-party rather than design its own."
I hope the register is accurate about their opinion / prediction. Who is the vendor?
Is it possible to use PC chipset with PowerPC CPU?
IBM and Winbond had an unreleased, defective PowerPC chipset for Open PowerPC in 1999. I had doubt about their chipset. There is a rumor about secret Hypertransport chipset from 3rd party in 1999, but the company was closed.
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@kennyG
glad to see you are a chipset expert ;)
your comment about Mai and the G3 is WRONG! BTW
Ohh did I mention the Marvell PPC chip while real sweet with high speed memory and LAN controller only has support for Dual PCI and NO AGP!!!
Sigh! maybe in the future!
Kurt
Please will you Morph duds keep the FUD to a reasonable level I can't keep up with the shoveling!
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@ Kurt
Ohh did I mention the Marvell PPC chip while real sweet with high speed memory and LAN controller only has support for Dual PCI and NO AGP!!!
AFAIK, AGP in the Marvell based Pegasos II will be inplemented pretty much in the same way as in the Pegasos I/Amiga One.
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Well I'll be damned joanna, facts? I think you need to take your own advice...
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Glad to see you're even less of a chipset expert, Kurt. AGP is nothing more than PCI with stricter timing. Direct support in the memory controller chip for AGP is totally irrelevant to the end-user, and only important from the design stage. What isn't irrelevant is Articia-S's fatal bugs and its lack of DDR support, and of course Mai's total unwillingness to admit any bugs until IBM stepped in. Regardless of the Articia-S features, its bugs make it useless crap anyway.
The difference between FUD and non-FUD is fact. That makes you technically more than a fudder than myself. Have a nice day, soldier-boy.
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@KennyR
You're still basing information on one chipset. Frankly I haven't seen any problems with the Artica P yet. :-D
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@Terminills
Could be because they have not fabbed the Articia-P yet. They have not even fabbed the Articia-Sa yet, which is the intermediate step *to* the Articia-P.
Hard to find bugs in vaporware.
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@downix
It's been available since April 19th in samples :-D
:edit:
I've never seen solid vaporware before thanks for informing me tho... :-D
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I've seen plenty. Might I mention the MCC, Walker, A3000+, all vaporware, but still physically existed.
Considering how long it took the Articia-S to go from samples to production....
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@downix
I'll let ya know when I put my order in how bout that? :-D
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*COOL*!
They sampled the ArticiaP more than *2* years late.
Now what? Wait a year to get it into production? :-)
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@AmiGR
Lates better then not at all. :-D and the 200 Mhz fsb is nice too :-P
:edit:
Hell AMD was atleast 14 months late on the opteron and they're a much larger company. ~shrug~
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What 200Mhz FSB? I have the Articia-P's specs here, and it states quite clearly:
166Mhz FSB
It also states that sampling has not begun yet, but will shortly. (from Mai's website at that)
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@downix
Different revision at the foundry :-D
:edit:
you might want to get ahold of a sales rep I know I have. :-D
:additional edit: lol
I asked specifically when I was deciding on a chipset. if you like you can pmail me your email and I'll fwd the mail :-D
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Tell your sales rep that their site is quite outdated then.
I'd note, the Mai rep I delt with fed my old boss a bunch of baloney too. (not Genesi I'm speaking of, I delt with Mai before in a contract)
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@downix
yes thier site is quite outdated. They even have the magica line still up which they have no intention of producing.
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Well then that could explain it.
But I still have not been impressed yet with their designs.
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I won't know if I'm impressed till everything is complete. But I am giving them the benifit of the doubt. Until I know first hand.
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If you want a Linux PPC 970 box, buy a blade.
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You will never be able to implement full AGP compliance with an AGP slot attached to a PCI-X slot.
I find all this Mai bashing also very amusing considering every Pegasos out there is using the old Articia and not even the new revision.
And not even using it fully BTW as the FSB is stuck at 100 Mhz for most boards.
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Uhm, but a blade isn't a box, it's a board.
Forking out 2k USD for a motherboard with chips on it and having to fork out ANOTHER 4.5k USD just to get a box to put it in isn't THAT fun, really ;-)
If you have the box, PPC970 blades sounds excellent, though ;-)
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>You will never be able to implement full AGP
>compliance with an AGP slot attached to a PCI-X
>slot.
Please post your ArticiaS AGP2x compliance test
results. Thanks.
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Ben Hermans wrote...
I find all this Mai bashing also very amusing considering every Pegasos out there is using the old Articia and not even the new revision.
If we (all the amiga community and, firstly, the vendors/developers) don't clear this and
all other questions (fud?) regarding the possible hardware choices that we have, a big part of the possible customers will never buy the products...
:-(
I, for one, look forward for a united community with clear and strong targets...
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@takemehomegrandma
AFAIK, AGP in the Marvell based Pegasos II will be inplemented pretty much in the same way as in the Pegasos I/Amiga One.
Do not believe all of the propaganda.
ArtisiaS has AGP 2x bus built in.
Marvell seems to require a external glue logic to support AGP 2x.
IMO: Perhaps some principles are the same, but the implementation will be totally different.
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The principles aren't the same either.
Marvell: supports PCI-X, need external glue logic to get AGP
Articia: supports AGP, well duh.
AGP uses only 32 bit and 66MHz clock which is single, dual, quad or octal pumped for higher bitrate.
PCI-X uses 64 bit and 133MHz clock to achieve higher bitrate. At the very least you'll end up with higher latency because of the MPx/60x/DDR to PCI-X to AGP conversion in two steps.
Please tell me how "connecting some pins together" and "converting from 32 bit 66MHz x 1/2/4/8 to 64 bit 133MHz x 1" will be the same? ;-)
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Is that you Charles? :)
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@ksk
I don't know about this ArtisiaS chip you're speaking of, but the Articia-S does not have proper AGP support built-in, it's a modified 64-bit 66Mhz PCI slot.
That's why on the A1 if you plug the wrong kind of PCI card into PCI slot 0, the AGP slows down.
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You will never be able to implement full AGP compliance with an AGP slot attached to a PCI-X slot.
A good half *if not more* of the AGP slots out there don't have full AGP complience either. Hell, I've yet to run across a single AGP 8x vendor that has full complience. (don't forget, AGP 8x complience means AGP 2x or slower cards no longer work, so if the slot can run an AGP 2x card, then it's not fully 8x complient)
The goal here is not to do one upsmanship by throwing off-handed comments about some complience standard that nobody bothers with anywhere else. It is to support AGP cards, to have enough compatability in the chipset to run the AGP cards needed.
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A modified 64 bit 66 Mhz PCI slot would mean AGP x1 whilst the Articia S does AGP x 2.
The reason why it drops down to AGP x 1 is because the bandwidth is then shared between that PCI slot and the AGP slot.
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64bit? You sure about that?
Please try to point it out in the specification:
http://www.mai.com/products/BRA660R2.0.pdf (http://www.mai.com/products/BRA660R2.0.pdf)
I'm waiting.
Apart from this, Ben is right. If you have 32bit, 66MHz PCI, you just need a few control signals to have 1xAGP. 2xAGP requires double-pumping that clock yet again (effectively 32 bit, 133MHz). So if you have 133MHz and 64bit, like the Marvell controller, you could use external glue logic to tie it up to a 4xAGP device, but you would SURELY add latency compared to the solution with 2xAGP plugged right into the controller. This is because of the half buswidth but double clock rate conversion you need.
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PPC970 support
yeah right....
since we have a ton of modern applications that involve hardcore hardware (powerfull Cad, a lot of amazing games, a lot of modern multimedia software), it's now time to move forward!!!! Get serius......
8-)
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A good half *if not more* of the AGP slots out there don't have full AGP complience either.
Did you forget Intel's 875 chipset class (e.g. MSI 875P Neo)?
Hell, I've yet to run across a single AGP 8x vendor that has full complience.
One can only say this statement IF one doesn’t keep track of X86 world (specifically Intel Corp).
(don't forget, AGP 8x complience means AGP 2x or slower cards no longer work, so if the slot can run an AGP 2x card, then it's not fully 8x complient)
Depending on the standard e.g. “Type 4” vs “Type 5” vs "Type 6".
Referencing Intel's AGP 3.0 Interface Specification Rev 1.0. Page 39.
There are 6 types of AGP equipped motherboards;
1. AGP 3.3 V Motherboard, 3.3 V keyed, Supports only AGP 3.3 V signaling. Available speeds 1x, 2x.
2. AGP 1.5 V Motherboard, 1.5 V keyed, Supports only AGP 1.5 V signaling. Available speeds 1x, 2x,
4x.
3. Universal AGP Motherboard (UAGP)
Universal (UAGP) Supports both AGP 1.5 V and 3.3 V signaling. Available speeds 1x, 2x, 4x.
4. AGP3.0 Motherboard, 1.5 V keyed, Supports only AGP3.0 signaling. Additional electrical ID to
prevent AGP 1.5 V operation. Available speeds 8x, 4x.
5. Universal 1.5V AGP3.0 Motherboard (Universal 1.5V AGP3.0), 1.5 V keyed, Supports AGP 1.5 V and AGP3.0 signaling. Available speeds 1x, 2x, 4x, in AGP2.0 mode and 8x, 4x in AGP3.0 mode.
6. Universal AGP3.0 Motherboard (Universal AGP3.0)
Universal (UAGP) Supports AGP 3.3V, 1.5V and AGP3.0 signaling. Available
speeds 1x, 2x, 4x in AGP2.0 mode and 8x, 4x in AGP3.0
mode. This includes 3.3V support for 1x and 2x speeds.
Manufactures can select different solutions for their needs.
(don't forget, AGP 8x complience means AGP 2x or slower cards no longer work, so if the slot can run an AGP 2x card, then it's not fully 8x complient)
You are only referring the Type 4 AGP motherboard.
"the terms AGP1X, AGP2X, AGP4X, and AGP8X refer to the speed of data transfers on the AGP Interface while AGP1.0, AGP2.0, and AGP3.0 refer to specific releases of the AGP Interface specifications." - page 11
Examples;
ASUS nForce2 (A7N8X) supports "1.5V AGP 8X Pro" e.g. "Universal 1.5V AGP3.0 Motherboard" (Type 5).
(nVidia nForce 2 Class).
MSI K7T Turbo-R (MS-6330 V3) supports AGP 2.0 e.g. AGP 1.5 V Motherboard (Type 2). (VIA KT133A Class)
MSI 875P Neo (MS-6758) supports 8x/4x at 0.8V (AGP 3.0) or 4x at 1.5V (3.3V is not supported) e.g. AGP3.0 Motherboard (Type 4). (Intel 875 Class).
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Electro:
Facts,, I have DataSheets of Marvell Northbridges, and I have some experience on reading and understanding those kind of papers.
Proving above. Considering various NDA restrictions I Won't send them to you... Neither can I send you any up-to-date reference of my recent works (specs+ numbers manufactured) beoynd fact that they are based on Motorola PPC. Pitty, but I rather keep my work than try to win these pointless net figths that seem to be going on and on.
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Yoanna:
If you're not ready to prove your claims then shut up and thats exactly why you and kennyr r now such obvious childish trolls. Sure articiaS had a bug and its now fixed. But I guess marvell has no bugs right? Also raving about peg2 how its gonna be the gazillion times better than a1 when the thing is not even out yet is just pathetic. ffs every time some1 mentions a1 or os4 or mai, theres tens of posts from ppl who claim that mai is crap, amigaone doesn't work and os4 will never come. Give it a rest. Even kids get bored of 'my toy is better than yours' tactics why the hell cant you ppl... As I said childish stuff.
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"The difference between FUD and non-FUD is fact. That makes you technically more than a fudder than myself. Have a nice day, soldier-boy."
Uhh ever thing I said was fact.
Same thing can't really be said by you because every thing you said was technically FALSE.
Well very few if anything posted by you Morph boy's has been factual. The amount of left handed compliments and innuendo you guy's spread is amazing I am beginning to wonder if you guy's have a crib sheet that you pass around with a bunch of false rumors and twisted spin of the facts. because you all seem to be on the exact same page. It might be the Wrong page but always the same page.
So let's have fun and tear your VERY NON-FACTUAL POST APART.
No it won't be the same as A1/Peg1 AtriciaS has AGP built in.
AGP IS ALWAYS BUILT INTO THE NORTHBRIDGE.
AGP on the ATRICIAS is built into the Northbridge.
PCI and AGP are not the SAME thing.
I have two very large books on the specs I will send them to you, if you give me your address.
But to be honest there is really no big speed advantage between AGP2X and PCI in most cases as long as your graphics card has sufficient memory. That has been proven in speed tests on various PC sites.
So if Thendic was honest and did not try to hack AGP onto the PegII it would not be the end of the world. Hacking AGP onto a PCI bus would be messy and would be nothing more than a marketing ploy.
Because the resulting circuit would likely be slower than a straight PCI card.
But not to create more FUD please really read the Marvell specs please before you go all agog
Dual PCI means if you convert one to AGP and used the other to talk to the south bridge means no functional PCI expansion bus to be used by the end user.
" and of course Mai's total unwillingness to admit any bugs until IBM stepped in."
Ohh the above statement is really untrue. BBRV BS at the fullest not to be taken serious by anyone with a functioning brainpan.
"What isn't irrelevant is Articia-S's fatal bugs"
" Regardless of the Articia-S features, its bugs make it useless crap anyway."
Are you saying that BBRV sold 600 NON-working Pegasos boards to endusers.
Is he going to refund everyone's money for selling them doorstops.
No of course not, Anyone with a Peg one board will tell you that they are quite happy with them, and that shock they work just fine .
Also I am a Marine there is a world of difference!!
Kurt
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Electro:
Gee? So, mind telling me what's your real problem behind these rant and instulting attempts. can't handle the fact there are plenty people smarter than you? :-D
And like I said.. Showing something to people who would not understand it anyhow ain't worth losing job/clents. If you don't understand that much there ain't much left to discuss..
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Poster: Elektro
kenny, joanna it's past bed time for you kids...
and lest i forget:
mai sux, marvell rox
x86 sux, ppc rox
excellent reasoning...
Sounds reasonable.
Personally, I would like yo know how much experience the design engineers at MAI have with using Amiga computers, such as the A1200. It would be cool to see them marvell at how cool the A1200 is considering how old the technology is inside. ;-)