Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => AROS Research Operating System => Topic started by: trekiej on October 31, 2013, 04:52:30 PM
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How do you like the Native Version?
What is your experience?
Cheers.
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There's no such thing as an usable native port.
There are Linux-hosted versions wich I won't use because they depend on bloated and slow X11.
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There's no such thing as an usable native port.
There are Linux-hosted versions wich I won't use because they depend on bloated and slow X11.
You're being quite dishonest by making such a statement or you're very ill informed. AROS hosted is quite usable on the Pi as shown by the video on the Raspberry Pi site http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=COUrcZat6oc
Video acceleration is missing at the moment but that can be said for ALL Amigas if you want to get technical about it, even NG Amigas which have extremely limited 2D/3D acceleration.
The native version is also quite usable but is missing audio and network drivers at the moment. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64451
More detailed tech info about native AROS on Pi can be found here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/Arm_Raspberry_Pi_support
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You're being quite dishonest by making such a statement or you're very ill informed. AROS hosted is quite usable on the Pi as shown by the video on the Raspberry Pi site http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=COUrcZat6oc
Video acceleration is missing at the moment but that can be said for ALL Amigas if you want to get technical about it, even NG Amigas which have extremely limited 2D/3D acceleration.
The native version is also quite usable but is missing audio and network drivers at the moment. http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64451
Usability is a relative term: for me, an slow and tearing desktop enviroment is unusable.
And X11 on the Pi has both problems.
Amiga-like OS should never be hosted, it makes no sense at all, except for porting efforts and debugging. It's an ugly solution.
And while a classic amiga graphics system isn't "accelerated" in a modern way, it is for blitting operations AND can provide tear-free, smooth screen updates. That's an integral part of the Amiga experience. Good luck getting a single program to update the screen in a proper, tear-free way in anything under X11 on a Raspberry Pi :D
X11 is just the opposite thing. On the Pi, there won't be accelerated X11. Never. They've bypassed the lame and broken X11 pile of poo and aiming for wayland graphics server, wich runs happily here too.
Oh, and those so-called NG Amigas have no meaning to me. Expensive computers on dead architectures for running the same open source apps I can run on my GNU/Linux box ten times faster. The ONLY future Amiga has is AROS and FPGA reimplementations.
I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.
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Thanks.
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Usability is a relative term: for me, an slow and tearing desktop enviroment is unusable.
And X11 on the Pi has both problems.
Amiga-like OS should never be hosted, it makes no sense at all, except for porting efforts and debugging. It's an ugly solution.
And while a classic amiga graphics system isn't "accelerated" in a modern way, it is for blitting operations AND can provide tear-free, smooth screen updates. That's an integral part of the Amiga experience. Good luck getting a single program to update the screen in a proper, tear-free way in anything under X11 on a Raspberry Pi :D
X11 is just the opposite thing. On the Pi, there won't be accelerated X11. Never. They've bypassed the lame and broken X11 pile of poo and aiming for wayland graphics server, wich runs happily here too.
Oh, and those so-called NG Amigas have no meaning to me. Expensive computers on dead architectures for running the same open source apps I can run on my GNU/Linux box ten times faster. The ONLY future Amiga has is AROS and FPGA reimplementations.
I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.
All very good points and I admit that I agree with you in regard to NG Amigas and I find it hard to believe what people will pay for an underpowered, over priced X1000 or a SAM. I also agree that the future is with AROS and FPGA. The cost of developing OS4 on an ever decreasing pool of specialized CPUs will drive the cost of NG Amigas to even more astronomical prices, and eventually OS4 and NG Amigas will be priced out of existence. It's on the verge of extinction now in spite of all the latest announcements about new hardware, SMP, etc.
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I'm not being dishonest and I am well informed.
X11 is slow and bloated for sure, but how is that relevant for AROS? X11 won't be doing compositing for the system beyond the containing window, will it? It's an honest question since I don't actually know how Linux hosted AROS works, but I would have guessed that the hosted AROS desktop _could_ be rendered using 3D cards and whatnot, regardless of the windowing system.
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X11 is slow and bloated for sure, but how is that relevant for AROS? X11 won't be doing compositing for the system beyond the containing window, will it?
Even if the entire AROS desktop is running inside an X11 window (wich is an ugly solution by itself), that window's contents have to be drawn: a big bit block transfer has to be done a number of times per second AND MOST IMPORTANTLY it should be done in a double-buffer scheme where *the buffers can be swapped during the vsync interval, not before, not after*.
Well, this is what happens on the X11 enviroment on the Pi:
-The CPU is sodomized to make the big bit block transfer, whose data has to go across many SLOW abstraction layers using network-transparent sockets. Yeah, X11 was written in ancient times even before "modern" desktop enviroments like the Amiga, and in that ancien world of mainframes and thin terminals it made sense. Now it's totally bananas. VNC is today's solution for these situations.
-There's only and screen buffer and that buffer is written continuosly: tearing and jerky movement all the way! No double buffering, and try to make X11, a stupid protocol for networked thin clients, what "wait for vsync" is.
Don't waste your time on hosted solutions. Native AROS o muerte! :)
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It truly boggles the mind that anybody could have thought X11 would ever be a sensible solution for desktop graphics. If they'd done the sensible thing and developed an alternative when Linux was still in alpha, they could've saved a lot of people a ton of headache over the years, drastically improved performance on lower-end hardware, and had all the pain of transitioning over with by now; instead, they put it off until they simply could not put it off any longer (now that both of their eeevil closed-source competitors have made spiffing up the OS with GPU magic a selling point and they're still stuck with client software talking to an imaginary server over a network link where both ends are on the same damn machine,) drove off legions of potential converts over the years with endless configuration headaches and shoddy video performance, wound up with at least half a dozen mutually incompatible and differently-behaving toolkits to put a modern user interface on what amounts to a software emulation of a glorified vector terminal, and ended up having to come up with an alternative anyway, all for the sake of sticking with a design that was crufty when it was new back in 1984.
If that isn't the Linux philosophy in a nutshell, I don't know what is.
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Personally, I don't think its worth the time, effort or energy to natively port it to rasperry pi, except maybe once faster arm processors are available you'd have a good starting point.
And another thing, stop whining. How much time, energy or money have you contributed to AROS? Why is it always the people who have done nothing who are so critical?
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Porting it natively would result in a decent AROS starter system being available for under $50. That's nothing to sneeze at, at least if adoption is something they actually want. I certainly wouldn't have bothered trying RiscOS if they hadn't done an rPi port.
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I have aeros running on cubiebord
It uses still x11 but in runs faster than any amiga below x1000.
Why?
Because we have 2d/3d driver for mali gpu available.
X11 is not the problem on pi, it is the missing drivers. So it runs in framebuffer mode.
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And another thing, stop whining. How much time, energy or money have you contributed to AROS? Why is it always the people who have done nothing who are so critical?
I was answering an user.
And I DO contribute with Rpi, only not to AROS. But if you can play Scummvm on a Raspberry Pi in fullscreen using hardware scaling, it's because of my work here, for example:
https://github.com/vanfanel/SDL12-kms-dispmanx
But anyway, running the whole desktop under X11 is a bad idea.
X11 is not the problem on pi, it is the missing drivers. So it runs in framebuffer mode.
I'm not buying it. Even if you had a driver (wich would alleviate the CPU sodomizing situation a bit ) you'd still be in a broken enviroment aka "tearing hell" with jerky window movement and asynchronous video buffer updates. That's why the Rpi foundation has decided agains X11 and the Pi will never have a hardware-accelerated X11 enviroment but will go for Wayland directly.
Why don't you use dispmanx directly like I do? It's a VERY easy API. In fact, Wayland uses it.
Take a look into my repository for example code or simply look inside /opt/vc for more examples. You can VERY easily define windows (elements) wich contain image data (resources) and it's very easy to have accelerated blittings and double buffer schemes.
I have aeros running on cubiebord
It uses still x11 but in runs faster than any amiga below x1000.
Why?
Because we have 2d/3d driver for mali gpu available.
Are you using the open source Mali gpu driver? (LIMA project)
If you're using a closed source driver, then I'm not interested. I had very very very bad experiences with arm socs and closed source drivers: abandoned platforms with buggy drivers that will never be fixed and developers under DNAs, etc.
I won't touch a platform with closed drivers again in my life, I swear.
I certainly wouldn't have bothered trying RiscOS if they hadn't done an rPi port.
I'm fascinated with Risc OS on the Pi. What an awesome desktop OS! This is how a native AROS port would run I guess.
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well aeros lets you run available linux applications.
what i have seen from riscos doesnt impress me.
There is a video of a painting app where you can see that there is a drawing delay. Much more than with tuxpaint on aeros.
scummvm works good too on x11 even without drivers.
the truth is that on x86 linux 2d/3d enabled x11 is faster than aros native. Also hosted can access every fs and network linux can. Nowadays linux boots 5 times faster on modern hw than native aros.
Xwayland brings accelerated 2d to pi and so to aros hosted .
If you like to moan about closed drivers, contact raspi foundation.
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well aeros lets you run available linux applications.
what i have seen from riscos doesnt impress me.
There is a video of a painting app where you can see that there is a drawing delay. Much more than with tuxpaint on aeros.
Ah, you saw some outdated video of a drawing program and judged the OS by that. Great.
scummvm works good too on x11 even without drivers.
Look at ANY sequence with scrolling, please. You'll see how UGLY it looks.
Take a look at CPU usage on the Pi if you scale any game to fullHD resolution using the CPU.
Try to run Monkey Island 3, on a FullHD resolution, under X11 on the Pi.
Drivers were really needed...
But not only for Scummvm, but for any SDL1.2.x game on the Pi.
the truth is that on x86 linux 2d/3d enabled x11 is faster than aros native. Also hosted can access every fs and network linux can. Nowadays linux boots 5 times faster on modern hw than native aros.
I thought we were talking about ARM here.
Xwayland brings accelerated 2d to pi and so to aros hosted .
If you like to moan about closed drivers, contact raspi foundation.
I'm NOT moaning about closed drivers. I'm just talking about my very negative experience with arm socs with closed drivers, so others can save money and time. "If you like to moan...". What a response. Meh.
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An Aros starter system for under 50$ is great, but an aros starter system that is too slow to run most classic games is not going to give users much confidence in AROS or fun.
Maybe its just me, but the ability to run classic apps and games is an important thing. I want a system where I can run all classic software, alongside newly ported apps. I have not tested classic apps on pi, but on pc you need 2.4-3ghz to run everything well, especially aga games.
I just don't think a pi can do this, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Besides this, doesn't amiga ng have enough underperforming under powered underwhelming machines with SAM/OS4 ?
:laugh1:
P.S. I would like to see benchmarks though with a 35$ computer put up against the sam boards!
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I'm fascinated with Risc OS on the Pi. What an awesome desktop OS! This is how a native AROS port would run I guess.
It is pretty neat. I really need to play around with it more; there's an interestingly different feel to it.
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@gaula92
i think we are talking about x11 in general..
So i just tell you that you can't "judge" it for the bad performance on rpi.
On any other device, may it ARM, x86, ppc or whatever, X11 runs fast.
Check this and cry:
https://developer.nvidia.com/content/kayla-platform
This is a ARM device in desktop league.
Cubie is nice since it gives better performance than a SAM for around 80 bucks (including PSU, sdcard)
X11 flies, check cubieez.
All have X11 drivers and so X11 is not bad.
Wayland without drivers sucks totally... Means.
Instead of wasting time with waylaid, people should just create X11 compatible drivers.
Wayland is not as bloated because it has no "history". X11 supports any HW since the beginning of Linux. Wayland doesn't. Less features, less compatibility = smaller footprint. Is it really better? Depends on what you use Linux and if you need old stuff to work. I could accept wayland when it proves good backward-compatibility with the Xwayland wrapper.
PS: the vidio i saw was a few weeks old. So yes i judge, because it runs on a defined HW called rPi.
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@gaula92
i think we are talking about x11 in general..
So i just tell you that you can't "judge" it for the bad performance on rpi.
On any other device, may it ARM, x86, ppc or whatever, X11 runs fast.
Check this and cry:
https://developer.nvidia.com/content/kayla-platform
This is a ARM device in desktop league.
Cubie is nice since it gives better performance than a SAM for around 80 bucks (including PSU, sdcard)
X11 flies, check cubieez.
All have X11 drivers and so X11 is not bad.
Wayland without drivers sucks totally... Means.
Instead of wasting time with waylaid, people should just create X11 compatible drivers.
Wayland is not as bloated because it has no "history". X11 supports any HW since the beginning of Linux. Wayland doesn't. Less features, less compatibility = smaller footprint. Is it really better? Depends on what you use Linux and if you need old stuff to work. I could accept wayland when it proves good backward-compatibility with the Xwayland wrapper.
PS: the vidio i saw was a few weeks old. So yes i judge, because it runs on a defined HW called rPi.
Native AROS x86 with nVidia GPU accleration simply flies when I run it on my 7 year old laptop w/GeForce Go5200. I would imagine that a native ARM version with 2D/3D acceleration using Tegra or Mali would also be jaw dropping when compared to classic and NG Amigas graphically. Not to mention the price comparison(s) to NG Amigas....that would be jaw dropping as well. It seems that the critics of AROS running natively on ARM or x86 consist mostly of folks who have an economic interest in NG Amigas.
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...I would imagine that a native ARM version with 2D/3D acceleration using Tegra or Mali would also be jaw dropping when compared to classic and NG Amigas graphically. Not to mention the price comparison(s) to NG Amigas....that would be jaw dropping as well. It seems that the critics of AROS running natively on ARM or x86 consist mostly of folks who have an economic interest in NG Amigas.
Well that is odd.
I thought you had a fairly negative opinion about NG systems.
Frankly, I'd tend to agree with you that ARM seems to be the truly promising ISA for these systems.
As much as I like A-eon's designs, the pricing of new PPC systems puts them out of the reach of most of us.
On the other hand, I have a quad core A9 based appliance that was really cheap and it flies.
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On the other hand, I have a quad core A9 based appliance that was really cheap and it flies.
The RockChip RK3188 CPU's (don't know if its the one you have but RK3188 is a Cortex A9 based design) are looking very promising in that respect - Rockchip have been unusually open (for ARM SOC manufacturers) in releasing whatever info they can about it (which unfortunately excludes the GPU, as it's an ARM Mali 400, and ARM does not allow manufacturers to release stuff openly), and there's a full Linux distro available for it (Pi%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!u - Ubuntu derivative, as the name indicates).
No HW accelerated graphics for it yet, and that'll likely remain a challenge. (On the Linux side there's the "workaround" of eventually using the Android display subsystem with Wayland or Mir) But it's still fast enough to be able to do unaccelerated software decoding of 720p video just fine.
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@gaula92
Still in war with X11 just for a bad implementation on raspbian and talking about pi like a highend computer... its a deja vu!
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(Pi%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!u -
This confused me greatly when I checked in on this thread again, until I realized it got caught by the somewhat overzealous profanity filter....
The distro name starts with "pic" and ends with "untu".
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Well that is odd.
I thought you had a fairly negative opinion about NG systems.
Frankly, I'd tend to agree with you that ARM seems to be the truly promising ISA for these systems.
As much as I like A-eon's designs, the pricing of new PPC systems puts them out of the reach of most of us.
On the other hand, I have a quad core A9 based appliance that was really cheap and it flies.
No, I had a PegII Open Desktop Workstation and I loved it. I paid $700 for it back in 2009 direct from Bill Buck's final production run. I couldn't justify keeping it around just for the light office-use that it was performing so I finally ended up selling it on eBay in 2012 for the same price I paid for it. Talk about maintaining good resale value! You won't see that often with computers.
My only gripe with NG Amigas is with the X1000. It was designed, produced and sold years after my PegII was discontinued, but costs 500% more than my PegII. The PegII also outperforms it based on the few benchmarks numbers that I've seen. I also had licenses for MOS and OS4 and can verify that OS4 was a dog compared to MOS. On my PegII, OS4 was much slower than MOS and MOS had/has a much more polished look and feel. MOS also had better hardware support for USB. Nearly every USB device plugged in while running OS4 caused OS4 to become so unstable that it wasn't usable. I finally just stopped using OS4 and stuck with MOS exclusively.
I expect that the successor to the X1000 will also be an extremely overpriced, underpowered POS. Right now, the future of Amiga-like operating systems is with AROS. A-Eon/Hyperion will price themselves out of business if they continue down their current path. Long live AROS.
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I just do not know how I do it. :)
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@gaula92
i think we are talking about x11 in general..
So i just tell you that you can't "judge" it for the bad performance on rpi.
On any other device, may it ARM, x86, ppc or whatever, X11 runs fast.
Check this and cry:
https://developer.nvidia.com/content/kayla-platform
This is a ARM device in desktop league.
Cubie is nice since it gives better performance than a SAM for around 80 bucks (including PSU, sdcard)
X11 flies, check cubieez.
All have X11 drivers and so X11 is not bad.
Wayland without drivers sucks totally... Means.
Instead of wasting time with waylaid, people should just create X11 compatible drivers.
Wayland is not as bloated because it has no "history". X11 supports any HW since the beginning of Linux. Wayland doesn't. Less features, less compatibility = smaller footprint. Is it really better? Depends on what you use Linux and if you need old stuff to work. I could accept wayland when it proves good backward-compatibility with the Xwayland wrapper.
PS: the vidio i saw was a few weeks old. So yes i judge, because it runs on a defined HW called rPi.
You apparently lead a sheltered life.
Currently I would not consider any product that does not have at least a dual core A9 processor.
I was rather dismayed to see that the Cubie you mention was offered with A7 and A9 processors.
And the price on the Nvidia board you mentioned is ludicrous.
It would be nice to see more ARM boards that featured PCIe expansion like the Nvidia board (even if it only offered four lanes), but I'm sure that will become more common.
Something tells me that when the A57 is released, other ISA manufacturers better watch out.
But for now, I can't serious recommend it for anything other than mcu use if it is not at least A9 or A15 based.