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Author Topic: Is Iapetus artificial?  (Read 7759 times)

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Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« on: March 14, 2005, 05:40:16 AM »
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1) Why make it spherical (geodesic or not) - if your technology and resources allow you to construct an artifact on such a scale, then logic dictates that you could most probably build equally impressive structures (even if smaller) in other geometries. The sphere is nature's preferred geometry for large masses. Building something that looks like a moon save for a few unusual features isn't that great a signal. A toroid, on the other hand...

;-) The spherical shape lends structural strength.  At that scale, its mass is tremendous compared to structures with which we are familiar.  A flatter shape would collapse under its own weight.  This is why stadium domes aren't flat.  On a planetary scale, think of the spherical shape  as an arch that has no end points.

Also, the sphere has the greatest interior volume for its surface area, and thus is the greatest structure for a given amount of building material.  Alternately, if they started with a given size in mind, this design would accomodate their given size with the smallest amount of material, labor, or expence.  Even aliens need to save money.

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2) Why park it in a conventional orbit? You could use a polar orbit, retrograde etc.

It's not in a conventional orbit; its plane of movement is tilted ~15ยบ out of its ecleptic, far more so than any of its neighbors in Saturn's system.

Further, even at that distance, its eccentricity is less than the others, though usually it would be the other way around.  This, too, is unconventional.

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3) Why park it around Saturn? There's a lot of loose crap in orbit that will ultimately devastate your artifacts surface over a long period of time, which coupled with (1) only serves to reduce any artificial appearence over time.

Being furthest out reduces that a lot.  Maybe they were confident of their ability to repair damage from micro-meteorites faster than it could appear.  Then one day something came along bigger than they could accomodate.  Nothing's going to protect you from that, except for an atmosphere, or moving out of the way.

Also, from the site, Hoagland cites Van Flanderen's Exploding Planet Model.  If the folk who build Iapetus did so in reaction to a predicted planetary explosion, they would want to put it as far out as they could and still collect enough sunlight to keep warm.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2005, 01:54:09 PM »
:-? The alternative to the existance of money as an institution is for each individual to do everything for himself: grow his own food, weave his own cloth to sew into his own clothes, cobble his own shoes from leather he tanned from the hide of a calf/cow he butchered after raising it himself....

In short, any economic system that divides the categories of labor among the people so that each citizen isn't doing everything requires an accounting system to track how much of the work you did is worth how much of the work I did and so on.  Otherwise there could be no coordination of the individual efforts into a cohesive whole.

The medium of currency is unimportant, only the institution of money as an abstract concept.

Another way of looking at it is man-hours. (Or alien-hours, if you will)  Greater efficiency produces better results for the same effort.  Remember that the laws of physics are the same for everyone, regardless whether another species may understand them better.


;-) The Van Flanderen model would take longer to explain than I have time for right now.  
IIRC, basically, Tom Van Flanderen was once doing research into killer satellites for the military.  He created mathematical models to predict the paths that would be taken by the bits of sharpnel from an exploding sattelite orbiting around the Earth.  The Idea was to find safe spots in the orbit where another satellite would be safe from the shrapnel produced, while other sattelites would not.  If the concept proved workable, the government could then place a series of killer sattelites in orbit, with different orbital distances from the Earth.  At any given moment, one of them would be in just the right position to destroy a particular enemy sattelite, without harming ours.  Minutes or hours later, it would be in the wrong position to do that, but another of our killers would have moved to a position from which it could safely do that.

While running the calculations for the paths the shrapnel would take, Tom noticed that the very eliptical paths produced resembled the paths taken by comets around our own sun.  Out of curiosity, he ran his calculations in reverse, and tracked the positions of the known major comets back through time.  He learned that within the accuracy of our best data, they all seem to have once occupied the same position, at about the same distance from the sun as is our asteroid belt, millions of years ago.

This model is in contrast to the conventional model, which holds that comets form in the "oort clouds," orbiting the sun far beyond any known planets.  That model sounds good too, except that to my knowledge, we've never been able to photograph the oort clouds around other stars, so they may not be very reflective, and our own oort clouds never seem to occlude our vision of the stars beyond them.  In sum, the conventional model requires clouds we've never seen, while the van Flanderen model does not.

Further, Mars shows strong evidence of once having been a moon orbiting a world larger than itself.  The Tharsis and Arabia bulges are exactly opposite from each other, just as one would expect from a moon tidally locked in its orbit.

There is also evidence that water once flowed across the Martian surface in a violent fashion, scouring the landscape in a flood of Biblical porportions.  This is what we would expect if its mother planet exploded, with debris bombarding Mars (and nearly every other body in the system) very quickly.

The only trouble is that the conventional model of physics doesn't allow for explosiong like that.  The hyperdimensional model, however, does.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2005, 02:22:08 PM »
;-) True, there isn't enough left, but remember that depending upon how long ago the explosion took place, much of the debris has collided with other worlds in the system, making each of them slightly bigger.  There would be less and less leftover mass every year.

We get a number of asteroids striking us every year.  A few every year even make it all the way to ground.

Iron, well a number of the asteroids in the belt are mostly iron, while others have very little.  is there a better explanation for that?

Mars' orbit is rather tame(r) now, but it's still pretty elliptical.  Remember that over time, the influence of other worlds tends to smooth out a planet's orbit, making it more circular.

As for two belts, one further in than Mars and one further out, you've missed it a bit:  Mars isn't in its original orbit; collisions with that much debris moving that quickly knocked it out of its orbit into a lower one.  The belt is at the original distance.  The asteroids are the bits that weren't moving quickly enough to shift orbit significantly, except over the eons.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2005, 08:58:20 AM »
;-) Another matter I'd like to address it the notion that the ridge along Iapetus' equator can be dismissed as the resurt of two lesser bodies colliding, and settling into a single moon.  

Since the ridge divides Iapetus exactly in half, it would have been necessary for both lesser bodies to be exactly the same size, which would have been remarkably unlikely.  It also seems that the composition of Iapetus' northern and southern hemispheres is uniform, which would require that the two lesser bodies had been identical in composition as well as size.  Another unlikely coincidence.

Finally, consider two ice skaters zipping towards each other, on a near-collision course.  As they pass, each reaches out, and they clasp hands.  The result is that they spin together about their mutual center of gravity.  Notice how they are positioned side by side, instead of one above the other?  If the ridge girdering Iapetus were the result of two bodies colliding together, the "smush seam," as it were, it would run through Iapetus' poles, instead of exactly ninety degrees from that.

That, and it wouldn't be so even, all along it's length.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2005, 08:17:57 AM »
Dandy wrote:
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Quixote wrote:
Finally, consider two ice skaters zipping towards each other, on a near-collision course.  As they pass, each reaches out, and they clasp hands.  The result is that they spin together about their mutual center of gravity.  

No - I wouldn't call it "center of gravity" - it's rather the "centre of centrifugal force" and the centre of the "orbit" they're spinning on...


;-) Let's not be pendantic.  It is their shared center of mass, or the center of their shared mass.  That, and the center of gravity are usually so close as to be indistinguishible.  Smushing two bodies together would alter the spin of the two.  The new body would have an axis of rotation that would usually bisect the demarkation where the two joined, or nearly so.

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Quixote wrote:
If the ridge girdering Iapetus were the result of two bodies colliding together, the "smush seam," as it were, it would run through Iapetus' poles, ...

If the collision path of these two bodies was vertical to Iapetus' axis, you would be right.
But what if the collision path of these hypothetical two bodies was somehow identical with Iapetus' axis?
Wouldn't then the result be exactly what we see?


:-? You mean both bodies settling together, one moving towards its North, while the other moves towards its South?  Touching pole to pole?  Ooookayyyy...  

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Quixote wrote:
instead of exactly ninety degrees from that.

From what our eyes can see, you might be right, but our eyes are not really precise.
What we consider to be exactly ninety degrees, could as well be 89 degrees or 91 degrees.
So - if you use the term "exactly", I would expect precise figures - not just your subjective estimation...


;-) By definition of the term, the equator is exactly ninety degrees from the poles.  And our best data to date has that ridge exactly along Iapetus' equator.



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Quixote wrote:
 That, and it wouldn't be so even, all along it's length.

Is it really even, all along it's length?
Or was that just again one of your estimations, based on what your eyes pretend to see?


:-? I'm stunned by the "Eyes pretend to see" remark.  What does it look like to you?


;-) For what it's worth, Mr. Hoagland has added a page five
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2005, 01:18:19 PM »
Karlos kibitzed:
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For what it's worth, Mr. Hoagland has added a page five
My god, he so needs to get laid or something :lol:

I've never seen such desperation.

:roll: Dude, that's an Ad Hominum Abusive, and you knew it.  If you want to go that route, I can wrestle with the best of them:

8-) Ahem.  "How's about you takes the color crayons out of your nose and listens to the evidence before spouting off like that, junior?  Or maybe you're just not bright enough to understand it?"

:-? See what I mean?  Nothing gets resolved if we do that, so let's don't.

Personally, the evidence I've read on Amiga.org seems to amount to the thought that any data suggesting artificiality can be dismissed on the basis that the human eye tends to see patterns in everything, while any evidence too strong for that can be dismissed on the basis that it must be a hoax, because any genuine relic from that long ago would have deteriorated enough that we could have dismissed it with the argument that the human eye tends to see patterns in everything.

:roll: There's no middle ground there.

Another road block here is that some folk refuse to treat seriously the possibility that Iapetus is artificial unless it is the only remaining hypothesis after all others have been eliminated, no matter how unlikely or far-fetched they are.  (And then we drag in increasingly unlikely alternative hypotheses by the heels, kicking and screaming, fetching them from as far as we can.)

It seems that some have begun with their conclusions, and are seeking data to support them, instead of the other way around.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2005, 07:15:57 PM »
Karlos:
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Every close photograph you see of it shows a perfectly normal limb against space, with the sole exception of the bulge in the middle. Only lighting seems to give any hint of a flat, geodesic structure, yet that flatness is not visible in any close range photographs at all.


;-) Just as the roundness of a tree isn't noticed by ants on its surface, so too is the flatness of what remains of each facet is only apparant at a distance; get too close and the local topology is distorted by endless craters left by millions of years of bombardment by meteroites.  


Karlos:
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Furthermore, this ridge would could not be the seemingly uniform profile we see if the overall shape were geodesic. The height at any point above the 'surface' would vary as you cross the vertices from one plane to another.


That's assuming that the equatorial ridge was perfeclty circular, which we haven't established.  In fact, in this picture, I notice that it seems not to be quite circular, but more of a decagon.  I also notice other lines that aren't highlighted in the inset to the left.  Can you?  To me it looks like a soccer ball.  (Or football, over there.)




Karlos:
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This is *exactly* what Hoagland does every single time he sees something slightly strange.


;-) You know, even as I typed it in, I knew that you were going to say that.

I've been following Hoadland's work for decades, and it is sound.  I understand the material well enough to spot hokum, and believe me, Richard knows his stuff.

Far from starting with his conclusion, Hoagland starts with his model, and when evidence supports his model, he notices it.  When data comes in that contradicts his model, he revises it.  That's just what every other reputable scientist does.

Many (most?) of his detractors can't be bothered to read through his body of work, preferring to dismiss it out of hand.  That's not good journalism, let alone science.

I'll agree that some of the things he does with numbers smack of coincidence, so I usually take that part more lightly, but the rest still stacks up to examination.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2005, 08:22:57 AM »
;-) Bear in mind that I'm posting from work, and thus have less time to frame and polish my arguments then I would prefer.

In my ice skating analogy, I sought to draw parallels between celestial mechanics and a more well known situation, to make the physics more intuitive for the casual reader who knew little of the physics involved.  In the comparison, the gravity holding two bodies together was analogized to the strength of the skaters' arms; the gravity holding them to the ice has no parallel in space, and to attempts to draw one would stretch the analogy too far.

The principle which I sought to illustrate was that any two bodies merging in space would assume a new axis of rotation, and that that axis would be perpendicular to their original directions of movement, despite whatever their original axis of rotation had been.

(Granted, it varies with the relative porportionate sizes of the bodies in question; a volkswagen sized body striking the Earth would alter its axis, but not enough to measure, let alone to notice.  -But we were postulating that the two bodies were of sizes near enough to equal to create the ridge seen around Iapetus' equator.  At those porportions, the new axis would be perpendicular to their relative directions of movement, while the "smush seam" would be similarly perpendicular to that direction, thus running through the new poles, instead of along the new equator.)

:roll: Next, it really must be repeated that such word play as "Hoaxland," while creative, still constitutes an Ad Hominum Abusive, and is not a valid argument.

;-) On to the thought that sustained meteorotic bombardment would eventually punch holes through the shell of Iapetus.  The obvious follow-up question is "what size?"  Under Hoagland's model, some of the meteorites HAVE penetrated the roof, or shell, of Iapetus, allowing its interior atmosphere (or more properly, its biosphere) to escape, eventually to freeze on the surface.  Thus, the white layer of ice and organic compounds on the leading face, where meteorites land more frequently, while the relatively less damaged trailing face still shows the original carbon black face.

This model explains WHY one face is white; to my knowlrdge the conventional model does not.

Further, one specualation regarding the ridge is that it is a support structure, built with greater strength than most of the surrounding regions.  At one time, the surrounding surface was as high as the ridge, and since then the majority of the surface has been smashed in, collapsing to the irregular depths we see now.  If this is the case, then closeup photos of the dark side would show no ridge, or the ridge at a much reduced altitude relative to the surrounding surface.

More later....
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2005, 02:43:28 AM »
:-? Dang.  My perfectly good rebuttal isn't here.  It seems that I'd hit the "preview" button instead of "submit."

@Dandy:  Images are posted as follows, except that one uses square brackets instead of curly ones:

{img}URL to image{/img}

As for holes in Iapetus, check out this one:



;-) As for surfing at work, as long as I'm on break it's okay.

@Karlos: requiring the other fellow to prove your position is another Ad Hominum argument, though I don't remember the Latin for it.  It amounts to "proof by assignment."

More later....
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2005, 01:14:38 PM »
8-) Well, actually, I've cross-linked them from Enterprise Mission, myself.  That's probably bad form, but nicking their copyrighted images to host myself is probably worse.  Besides, I haven't set up a site of my own.  I suppose I should; there are a few details I could point out if I took the liberty of drawing on the images, and I couldn't post them here without my own hosting.

It would probably be all right if I made sure to acknowledge their copyright.  Especially if I wrote and asked, first.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2005, 07:48:51 PM »
;-) There is now more from Enterprise Mission.  Check out page six.

Fascinating stuff.
 

Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2005, 05:07:19 AM »
;-) Not quite on holiday.  I haven't been on Amiga.org as often as I might, mostly because there isn't much news on the Amiga frontier.  I've been busy elsewhere.

As for Iapetus, there won't be more news on it until/unless our spacecraft approaches it again in a few years, or unless NASA releases more existing photographs.  I've given my assessment of the existing data; I find it compelling.  (And disturbing.)

Until more evidence is presented, there isn't more for me to say; I'd just be repeating myself.