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Author Topic: Is Iapetus artificial?  (Read 6737 times)

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Offline blobrana

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Re: \o/
« Reply #59 from previous page: February 24, 2005, 10:18:45 PM »
Hum,
The good old Arecibo Observatory comes to the rescue...

"We’re being scanned"



Offline DethKnight

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Re: \o/
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2005, 04:57:52 PM »
I was referring to the supposed "close(r)-range" scan from the probe Hoagland said was to take place but didnt etc....

unless I misread something ; when he started alluding to iron-ball paint et-al I began to lose interest and started skimming
wanted; NONfunctional A3K keyboard wanted
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2005, 08:59:49 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
Try to explain why a large body such as Iapetus would be geodesical,

I could imagine a "slow" collision of two bodies beeing the reason. After the collision the two shattered bodies affiliated to the current shape. Could serve as explanation for the equatorial bend as well...

Or non-uniform gravity coud be an explanation for the unusual shpe as well - once saw an report on TV on the earth not beeing really sperical as a result of non-uniform gravity (but this would not explain the equatorial bend)...
Quote

falemagn wrote:
and why would it have nested hexagonal craters,

Because of the hexagonal shape of their nested impactors, perhaps?
Quote

falemagn wrote:
and why does it have an equatorial bend.

See above...
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
Well, I can't say anything about your numbers 'cause I haven't seen the calculations behind them, but I can point you to how things are in reality: Saturn's got many other moons, and many of them have a mass inferior to the one of Iapetus, yet they are perfectly spherical.
...


I strongly doubt that any "perfectly spherical", naturally originated celestial body exists, until you proove me wrong...
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Offline Dandy

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2005, 09:16:37 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:
There's no reason for which crust expanding and shrinking should produce hexagons, ...

There's no reason for freezing water to produce hexagonal ice crystal structures either...
Quote

falemagn wrote:
... yet alone nested ones.

... yet alone snowflakes.
Quote

falemagn wrote:
And if you look at other pictures on the site, there are also examples of hexagonal craters being placed on a straight line, parallel to the ridge, at the same distance from one another.

Ever heard of/seen the impact of Shoemaker-Levy-9 on Jove a few years ago?
What's so hard to understand here?
Quote

falemagn wrote:
Also, crust expanding/shrinking can't explan the facets the moon seems to be made of.

Well - have you ever seen a "ball" formed of lots of soap bubbles?
Guess what shape the single bubbles have - they're hexagonally shaped!
All the best,

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Offline Dandy

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Re: \o/
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2005, 09:42:42 AM »
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
The odds that another civilization was in this solar system before us are the same as the ones for us being here right now. Quite likely, I'd say. For what we all know, it could be us who placed that thing there, eons ago.

Yes - you got me - I'm the one who left his spaceship in Saturn's orbit once the engine quit.
From there I went hitch-hiking across the galaxis...
Do I now have to await an ticket?
 :-D
Quote

falemagn wrote:
...
Coming back to the original topic, whether Iapetus is artificial or not I don't know, but as of now any proof that it's natural is lacking, and all clues point to it being artificial. In the end we may discover it's as natural as a {bleep}ball, but right now that's not the case.

I prefer to see it as naturally originated, as long as no-one can come up with evidence of it beeing artificial...

It simply is more likely naturally originated than artificially made.
Period.
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline Karlos

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Re: \o/
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2005, 01:24:46 PM »
I have some questions that need to be answered if you wish to entertain the artifical origin idea (with respect to building something that will be clearly artificial to other intelligences), that our author makes no effort to raise, let alone answer:

1) Why make it spherical (geodesic or not) - if your technology and resources allow you to construct an artifact on such a scale, then logic dictates that you could most probably build equally impressive structures (even if smaller) in other geometries. The sphere is nature's preferred geometry for large masses. Building something that looks like a moon save for a few unusual features isn't that great a signal. A toroid, on the other hand...

2) Why park it in a conventional orbit? You could use a polar orbit, retrograde etc.

3) Why park it around Saturn? There's a lot of loose crap in orbit that will ultimately devastate your artifacts surface over a long period of time, which coupled with (1) only serves to reduce any artificial appearence over time.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2005, 01:38:02 PM »
Quote

Dandy wrote:
Quote

falemagn wrote:
There's no reason for which crust expanding and shrinking should produce hexagons, ...

There's no reason for freezing water to produce hexagonal ice crystal structures either...
Quote

falemagn wrote:
... yet alone nested ones.

... yet alone snowflakes.
Quote

falemagn wrote:
And if you look at other pictures on the site, there are also examples of hexagonal craters being placed on a straight line, parallel to the ridge, at the same distance from one another.

Ever heard of/seen the impact of Shoemaker-Levy-9 on Jove a few years ago?
What's so hard to understand here?
Quote

falemagn wrote:
Also, crust expanding/shrinking can't explan the facets the moon seems to be made of.

Well - have you ever seen a "ball" formed of lots of soap bubbles?
Guess what shape the single bubbles have - they're hexagonally shaped!


Perhaps OT:

Hexagons are actually pretty common in nature.

The hexagonal geometry of ice and snowflakes is dictated by hydrogen bonding.

The hexagonal shape of a raft of soap bubbles arises from the fact that the hexagonal sheet gives you the most space efficient geometry (most bubbles per unit area). You can stack these hexagonally close packed sheets on top of each other (in 2 ways) to give two conformations known as HCP (hexagonally close packed) and CCP (cubic close packed). Sicne bubbles are not hard spheres, they will literally deform into an even denser arrangement that leaves no gaps and gives each bubble a tightlu defined geometry.

Take any number of equally sized hard spheres (eg marbles) and put them on a tray, shake it gently. You'll see them arrange themselves in the hexagonal pattern of a bubble raft (for exactly the same reason). Try to fill a volume with them and you will get either CCP or HCP overall. No other arrangement gives you the same packing efficiency (for hard spheres CCP/HCP is about 73 pecent or something).

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Offline the_leander

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Re: \o/
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2005, 01:41:15 PM »
Quote
3) Why park it around Saturn? There's a lot of loose crap in orbit that will ultimately devastate your artifacts surface over a long period of time, which coupled with (1) only serves to reduce any artificial appearence over time.


Perhaps because of the threat of manuvering a large planitary body past Jupiter and the asteroid belt to reletively safe skys?
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Offline Karlos

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Re: \o/
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2005, 02:40:03 PM »
Yeah but saturn orbit isn't safe, that's the point. Especially for an object that size.

Saturn's outermost ring basically has no outer boundary, the particle density simply falls off the further away you get.

For a small object, the chances of being hit by debris are fairly slim at Iapetus distance, but for an object the size of Iapetus itself, well, you are going to get pummelled over time.
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Offline Dandy

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2005, 09:38:29 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
...
Perhaps OT:

Hexagons are actually pretty common in nature.

The hexagonal geometry of ice and snowflakes is dictated by hydrogen bonding.

The hexagonal shape of a raft of soap bubbles arises from the fact that the hexagonal sheet gives you the most space efficient geometry (most bubbles per unit area). You can stack these hexagonally close packed sheets on top of each other (in 2 ways) to give two conformations known as HCP (hexagonally close packed) and CCP (cubic close packed). Sicne bubbles are not hard spheres, they will literally deform into an even denser arrangement that leaves no gaps and gives each bubble a tightlu defined geometry.

Take any number of equally sized hard spheres (eg marbles) and put them on a tray, shake it gently. You'll see them arrange themselves in the hexagonal pattern of a bubble raft (for exactly the same reason). Try to fill a volume with them and you will get either CCP or HCP overall. No other arrangement gives you the same packing efficiency (for hard spheres CCP/HCP is about 73 pecent or something).


That's precisely what I intended to say - I just hadn't the time to word it in English.

Clearly shows that a naturally reason for all these so called "abnormalities" is much more likely.
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Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2005, 05:40:16 AM »
Quote
1) Why make it spherical (geodesic or not) - if your technology and resources allow you to construct an artifact on such a scale, then logic dictates that you could most probably build equally impressive structures (even if smaller) in other geometries. The sphere is nature's preferred geometry for large masses. Building something that looks like a moon save for a few unusual features isn't that great a signal. A toroid, on the other hand...

;-) The spherical shape lends structural strength.  At that scale, its mass is tremendous compared to structures with which we are familiar.  A flatter shape would collapse under its own weight.  This is why stadium domes aren't flat.  On a planetary scale, think of the spherical shape  as an arch that has no end points.

Also, the sphere has the greatest interior volume for its surface area, and thus is the greatest structure for a given amount of building material.  Alternately, if they started with a given size in mind, this design would accomodate their given size with the smallest amount of material, labor, or expence.  Even aliens need to save money.

Quote
2) Why park it in a conventional orbit? You could use a polar orbit, retrograde etc.

It's not in a conventional orbit; its plane of movement is tilted ~15º out of its ecleptic, far more so than any of its neighbors in Saturn's system.

Further, even at that distance, its eccentricity is less than the others, though usually it would be the other way around.  This, too, is unconventional.

Quote
3) Why park it around Saturn? There's a lot of loose crap in orbit that will ultimately devastate your artifacts surface over a long period of time, which coupled with (1) only serves to reduce any artificial appearence over time.

Being furthest out reduces that a lot.  Maybe they were confident of their ability to repair damage from micro-meteorites faster than it could appear.  Then one day something came along bigger than they could accomodate.  Nothing's going to protect you from that, except for an atmosphere, or moving out of the way.

Also, from the site, Hoagland cites Van Flanderen's Exploding Planet Model.  If the folk who build Iapetus did so in reaction to a predicted planetary explosion, they would want to put it as far out as they could and still collect enough sunlight to keep warm.
 

Offline Dandy

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Re: \o/
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2005, 11:09:38 AM »
Quote

Quixote wrote:
...
Even aliens need to save money.

If they really still use "money", they cannot be much more advanced than we are...
Quote

Quixote wrote:
...the folk who build Iapetus...

:roll:
Really - is there one?
Evidences?
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Quixote wrote:
...did so in reaction to a predicted planetary explosion, ...

 :-? :-? :-?
Where are your facts?
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Quixote wrote:
...and still collect enough sunlight to keep warm.

Oha.
Okay - since Albert Einstein we all know everything is relative.
 ;-)
But I would not think that the collected sunlight in an Saturn orbit is enough to keep Iaphetus what mankind calls "warm"...
:-D
(I rather think you'd freeze your ass off)
All the best,

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Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2005, 01:54:09 PM »
:-? The alternative to the existance of money as an institution is for each individual to do everything for himself: grow his own food, weave his own cloth to sew into his own clothes, cobble his own shoes from leather he tanned from the hide of a calf/cow he butchered after raising it himself....

In short, any economic system that divides the categories of labor among the people so that each citizen isn't doing everything requires an accounting system to track how much of the work you did is worth how much of the work I did and so on.  Otherwise there could be no coordination of the individual efforts into a cohesive whole.

The medium of currency is unimportant, only the institution of money as an abstract concept.

Another way of looking at it is man-hours. (Or alien-hours, if you will)  Greater efficiency produces better results for the same effort.  Remember that the laws of physics are the same for everyone, regardless whether another species may understand them better.


;-) The Van Flanderen model would take longer to explain than I have time for right now.  
IIRC, basically, Tom Van Flanderen was once doing research into killer satellites for the military.  He created mathematical models to predict the paths that would be taken by the bits of sharpnel from an exploding sattelite orbiting around the Earth.  The Idea was to find safe spots in the orbit where another satellite would be safe from the shrapnel produced, while other sattelites would not.  If the concept proved workable, the government could then place a series of killer sattelites in orbit, with different orbital distances from the Earth.  At any given moment, one of them would be in just the right position to destroy a particular enemy sattelite, without harming ours.  Minutes or hours later, it would be in the wrong position to do that, but another of our killers would have moved to a position from which it could safely do that.

While running the calculations for the paths the shrapnel would take, Tom noticed that the very eliptical paths produced resembled the paths taken by comets around our own sun.  Out of curiosity, he ran his calculations in reverse, and tracked the positions of the known major comets back through time.  He learned that within the accuracy of our best data, they all seem to have once occupied the same position, at about the same distance from the sun as is our asteroid belt, millions of years ago.

This model is in contrast to the conventional model, which holds that comets form in the "oort clouds," orbiting the sun far beyond any known planets.  That model sounds good too, except that to my knowledge, we've never been able to photograph the oort clouds around other stars, so they may not be very reflective, and our own oort clouds never seem to occlude our vision of the stars beyond them.  In sum, the conventional model requires clouds we've never seen, while the van Flanderen model does not.

Further, Mars shows strong evidence of once having been a moon orbiting a world larger than itself.  The Tharsis and Arabia bulges are exactly opposite from each other, just as one would expect from a moon tidally locked in its orbit.

There is also evidence that water once flowed across the Martian surface in a violent fashion, scouring the landscape in a flood of Biblical porportions.  This is what we would expect if its mother planet exploded, with debris bombarding Mars (and nearly every other body in the system) very quickly.

The only trouble is that the conventional model of physics doesn't allow for explosiong like that.  The hyperdimensional model, however, does.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: \o/
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2005, 02:09:38 PM »
Ah, the old exploding planet idea. The principal problem with that is, where is the mass now? If you add up the total known asteroidal mass in the solar system (that includes the asteroid belt, trojan clusters etc) there isn't enough to make a planetary body with the mass of our moon.

That would make it a moon of mars, not the other way around ;-)

Furthermore, there's not a great deal of iron floating loose out there, which you'd expect had any reasonably big (read earth sized or larger) planet violently tore apart.

One would also expect several stable belts of asteroidal debris (depending how long ago it happened), either side of where Mars is now.

Mars is also in a perfectly boring orbit, not particularly indicitave of an escaped moon (contrast to Pluto, for example). also, one would also expect a great deal of captured mass in orbit around it - phobos and deimos hardly constitute that.

IMHO the evidence for Mars being the surviving moon of a planetary catastrophe on this scale is completely inadequate.
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Offline Quixote

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Re: \o/
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2005, 02:22:08 PM »
;-) True, there isn't enough left, but remember that depending upon how long ago the explosion took place, much of the debris has collided with other worlds in the system, making each of them slightly bigger.  There would be less and less leftover mass every year.

We get a number of asteroids striking us every year.  A few every year even make it all the way to ground.

Iron, well a number of the asteroids in the belt are mostly iron, while others have very little.  is there a better explanation for that?

Mars' orbit is rather tame(r) now, but it's still pretty elliptical.  Remember that over time, the influence of other worlds tends to smooth out a planet's orbit, making it more circular.

As for two belts, one further in than Mars and one further out, you've missed it a bit:  Mars isn't in its original orbit; collisions with that much debris moving that quickly knocked it out of its orbit into a lower one.  The belt is at the original distance.  The asteroids are the bits that weren't moving quickly enough to shift orbit significantly, except over the eons.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: \o/
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2005, 05:58:12 PM »
Quote

Quixote wrote:

Iron, well a number of the asteroids in the belt are mostly iron, while others have very little.  is there a better explanation for that?



Show me some large (as in comparable to Ceres, for example), near perfectly spherical iron-nickel asteroids that are more than 99.99% free metal and I'll take the idea of a planetary explosion more seriously. A planet large enough to have a moon the size of mars tidally locked in orbit would likely have a lot of free metal in the inner core that would be molten following such an event.

Large amounts of molten iron would adopt a spherical configuration pretty readily. Also, being the densest (therefore exerting the greatest gravitational field) part of the parent planet, I'd expect it to mop up a lot of the immediate debris too, so they'd be pretty damn large and hard to miss.

I can't think of a single known asteroid that fits the bill. The mass and inertia of such a body would preclude it being thrown in some wildly eccentric orbit never to be seen again.

Quote

Mars' orbit is rather tame(r) now, but it's still pretty elliptical.  Remember that over time, the influence of other worlds tends to smooth out a planet's orbit, making it more circular.


Tell that to Mercury and Pluto ;-)

Quote

As for two belts, one further in than Mars and one further out, you've missed it a bit:  Mars isn't in its original orbit; collisions with that much debris moving that quickly knocked it out of its orbit into a lower one.  The belt is at the original distance.  The asteroids are the bits that weren't moving quickly enough to shift orbit significantly, except over the eons.


The physics don't add up. The most massive parts of the planet would be near the core; these would be the ones hardest to move and also the ones with the most obvious compositional make up.

Unless of course, the force of the planetary explosion was so vast that it disintegrated it completely into small (no larger than say 100km) fast moving pieces.

Of course, the energy sufficient to do this would also obliterate any satellites. And I don't mean scarring them and ripping away their atmospheres. I mean total obliteration on the same scale as the parent planet.
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