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Author Topic: Is Iapetus artificial?  (Read 7730 times)

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Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Is Iapetus artificial?
« on: February 22, 2005, 05:30:58 PM »
If you don't like Hoagland, just give a glance at the pictures and see if you can find a "natural" explanation...

http://www.enterprisemission.com/moon1.htm
 

Offline PMC

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 05:40:08 PM »
What have you been up to this time, Blobrana?
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Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 05:42:01 PM »
Uh?
 

Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 06:03:40 PM »
Some interesting pictures:





 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 06:03:41 PM »
@Falemagn

It's a jumptable you dufus!

Oops, wrong thread ;-)
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Offline cecilia

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 06:24:00 PM »
Walnut in Space :lol:
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2005, 07:31:07 PM »
How much chocolate would you need to make a walnut whip out of that beast?
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Offline Cymric

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2005, 08:18:12 PM »
Hoagland is the prototype of a big crackpot with too much imagination and too little scientific background. His ideas are bogus, his reasoning unscientific: he postulates artificial constructs, and then 'finds' evidence to 'prove' that idea, instead of the other way around. The blowups are only impressive when you hve been preconditioned to think 'this could be artificial constructs', completely ignoring the fact we're looking at the utmost limit of magnification.

Not convinced? Well, where he makes a big slip is with the claim that 'any rocky body larger than a few hundred miles always turns into a sphere by the relentless force of gravity'. We can calculate that size pretty accurately. I found a reasonable approximation in the book Gravity From The Ground Up by Bernard Schutz, and works on the basis of the idea that the heat obtained from gravitational collapse onto a body of mass M is converted completely to thermal energy, kT. It disregards heat of fusion and the like, but for a first order estimate, it will do. When I plug in Iapetus' overall density and composition, I find that it lacks sufficient mass to melt completely and thus turn into a sphere. (2.7 * 10^22 kg required, Iapetus coming in at 1.7 * 10^22 kg.) However, it is a borderline case which accounts quite beautifully for the fact that Iapetus has such a 'squashed' appearance. It is big enough to melt part of its interior, but not big enough to pull itself into a spherical shape.

Hoaglands generalising claim needs a lot of 'ifs and buts' to stick, and it certainly won't work to complete satisfaction for Iapetus. And that is characteristic for much of the entire story. Beautiful pictures, definitely. But lousy arguments.

Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline cecilia

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2005, 08:42:10 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
How much chocolate would you need to make a walnut whip out of that beast?
more than I have in the kitchen. I just went out to get some supplies for a 3 layer checkerboard cake.
 :-P

and, yes, the ideas in this article are, hmmmm, well, silly. which is why I'm talking about chocolate. :-)
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Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2005, 09:58:24 PM »
Whatever you think of Hoagland doesn't explain those pictures.

Try to explain why a large body such as Iapetus would be geodesical, and why would it have nested hexagonal craters, and why does it have an equatorial bend.

Quote

Not convinced? Well, where he makes a big slip is with the claim that 'any rocky body larger than a few hundred miles always turns into a sphere by the relentless force of gravity'. We can calculate that size pretty accurately. I found a reasonable approximation in the book Gravity From The Ground Up by Bernard Schutz, and works on the basis of the idea that the heat obtained from gravitational collapse onto a body of mass M is converted completely to thermal energy, kT. It disregards heat of fusion and the like, but for a first order estimate, it will do. When I plug in Iapetus' overall density and composition, I find that it lacks sufficient mass to melt completely and thus turn into a sphere. (2.7 * 10^22 kg required, Iapetus coming in at 1.7 * 10^22 kg.) However, it is a borderline case which accounts quite beautifully for the fact that Iapetus has such a 'squashed' appearance. It is big enough to melt part of its interior, but not big enough to pull itself into a spherical shape.


Well, I can't say anything about your numbers 'cause I haven't seen the calculations behind them, but I can point you to how things are in reality: Saturn's got many other moons, and many of them have a mass inferior to the one of Iapetus, yet they are perfectly spherical. I think you need to recheck your numbers ;-)

Also, consider that not just mass counts, but also the diameter.

Moreover, Iapetus doesn't appear to be just non spherical, it appeaars to be geodesic, which can't be explained by just saying that gravity wasn't strong enough to melt it.

Notice I'm not saying Iapetus is indeed artificial, I'm just saying that unless you can explain in detail how could Iapetus "naturally" have such singular characteristics, then the artificial hypothesis can't be discarded.
 

Offline blobrana

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2005, 10:12:17 PM »
Hum,
Well the hexagonal craters are unusual, (nasa has noticed as well), though a crust cracking and shrinking will account for them, and the unusual ridge.
(A large impact would partially melt the interior)





[ And before anyone says; the monolith was a rectangle... ]

Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2005, 10:26:26 PM »
Quote

 Hum,
Well the hexagonal craters are unusual, (nasa has noticed as well), though a crust cracking and shrinking will account for them, and the unusual ridge.


Sorry, but I can't buy that. I've never seen crust cracking and shrinking that ends up in nested hexagonal patterns, nor this can possibly explain the perfectly linear and equatorial ridge.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2005, 10:46:29 PM »
I've never seen enough examples of this phenomenon to know if nested hexagons are possible or not...
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Offline falemagnTopic starter

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2005, 10:56:36 PM »
Quote
I've never seen enough examples of this phenomenon to know if nested hexagons are possible or not...


There's no reason for which crust expanding and shrinking should produce hexagons, yet alone nested ones. And if you look at other pictures on the site, there are also examples of hexagonal craters being placed on a straight line, parallel to the ridge, at the same distance from one another.

Also, crust expanding/shrinking can't explan the facets the moon seems to be made of.


 

Offline blobrana

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Re: Is Iapetus artificial?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2005, 10:58:31 PM »