Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: chromozone on March 11, 2003, 07:42:40 PM
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Hey I thought Wayne decided to keep the
main forum to Amiga Stuff..
Yet so much post is Morf/Peg sales & Marketing.
I'm keen on their alt platform BUT this is Amiga.org
I also vist Morf's site regularly to see whats up.
But when I come here AMIGA is my interest.
Shall we all go over to Morf & SPAM their site with
AMIGAONE Blar Blar Blar.....
What is Pissing me off is the Hype is turning up in
every thread, where it does not belong !
Come on Wayne is it an Amiga site or Open Please Choose ! :-?
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...and there was me thinking all the red trolls had moved to the other place.
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Chromozone,
By your definition, its an open site.
By other definitions, its an amiga site with a broad
definition for all things amiga and amiga related.
This has been discussed at length. As they used to say 'RTF'...its been discussed at length, just read a thread or two.
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@bhogget,
oh I don't think they'll ever leave completely, they need this site for validation.
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From what I understand, Amiga.org is not simply about the classic Amiga but also the future alternatives, which includes MorphOS, Amithlon, UAE, and OS4.
I don't see how MorphOS is off topic seeming as it has AmigaOS3.x compatibility, and happens to be a step forward (even if it isn't favored by the Amiga Inc., staff).
I believe the purpose of this site is to provide news and commentary directed to those fans and users of AmigaOS and their derivatives (including MorphOS, Amithlon, & UAE) as well as the classic line and possible derivatives.
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@chromozome:
For your benifit, I'll post the Amiga.org mission statment again. I'm working on the assumption that you missed it the first time.
Amiga.org's mission statement
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Amiga.org's mission is to provide support, encouragement, and information to the existing Classic Amiga community.
This includes with equality and without discrimination, but is not limited to any and all Amiga Operating systems, alternative Operating systems, emulators, and anything of demonstrated interest to the users of the Classic Amiga series of computers and the community to which it has evolved.
We will not discriminate for, or against any aforementioned alternative on the basis of friendship, advertising, and or personal political alliances.
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I'm NO TROLL
If you read my comments or previous threads
you would know this.
I'm just sick of the banter & how it is creeping
into most threads.
You don't get this from AROS or others.
I agree MORF has it's place on Amiga.org but not
when, As in "Akarniods" Thread on OS4"
He is flooded with "jump ship" come over to Morf,
Amiga inc are no good Blar Blar Blar...
He was a new user who came here because his dad
owned a CD32 & was keen to get involved with Amiga.
But all he gets is this WAR on Platformism.
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@Targhan
I agree with the mission statement.
I only suggested Morf/Peg was taken from the
Main Forum as other non Amiga threads have been.
No suggestion was made to remove it completley.
I just want the Dribble & Banter to stop.
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@chromozone
So far, Microsoft PocketPC (running windowsCE) is currently the only platform that Amiga-Anywhere (formerly known as AmigaDE) is available on . I have no idea if AmigaInc have signed an exclusive deal with Microsoft or not.
If you are serious about amiga-only, shouldn't you be asking AmigaInc themselves why they have chosen to focus on AmigaDE for M$ PocketPC?
Pegasos & MorphOS are closer to the classic Amiga concept than AmigaDE on PocketPC.
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@chromozone
But the dribble and banter is not breaking any rules, and removing it from the normal forums would be just the tip of the iceberg. Do we then ask for emulation systems to be put of of sight? Talk about Linux ? Microsoft? Whatever-they-call-DE-today? Do we remove all these from the front pages too?
I'll let you into a secret: some of the dribble and banter from the blue side irritates the hell out of me too. So does the cr_p the red trolls are spreading on the other site for that matter. But dribble and banter is not against the rules as long as it stays civil, and therefore it should not be banned. Oppose it by debate, and if you happen to be better at debating than they are, they'll go elsewhere in search of easier publicity.
Banning ideas is not the way to go.
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@Darth_X
AmigaDE Desktop players available for Linux & Win
DE apps currently can run on 50Million Devices Via
Intent email Fleecy or Randy if you don't believe this.
@bhoggett
Banning ideas is not the way to go.
Point taken your debating skills have won..
I agree the dribble comes form both sides.
And I am on neither I see them as 2 different products & would love to own 1 of each.
I would have posted on their site on A1 spam.
but this is AMIGA.ORG not Morf/Peg.org
When it attacks new users (which we need)
It's not right that was the point of the thread.
Now it's done I retract the BAN but ask all
to keep it free from marketing. (eg. TROJAN HORSE).
FIN..
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@chromozone
And one could possibly run a ATARI_VCS-emulator on over
100 million computers world-wide .....
The number of people actually doing it is much lower (off-course).
Currenrtly available:
A game-pack which ONLY runs on WinCE (see AInc-webshop),
some other games that will run on the desktop, but none off them
superceeds PD-quality for a desktop-system.
The games aren't even cutting edge on PDAs and only available
via an obscure webshop.....
It's been 3 years now and I never saw the DE/AA/?? been
reviewed in any PC/PDA-magazine, not even the gamepack.
Oh and this thread is probraly more likeley to confuse and
annoy a new user than anything else on the frontpage.
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1) Does AmigaDE run on Amigas? Amiga compatible
OSes? No and no... So, it wouldn't concern us even if
it did run on 1billion machines... The name by itself
means nothing...
2) It's MorphOS, not Morfos
3) Nobody attacked that guy and I can say that the thread
you are referring to was quite civilised.
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AmigaDE is less amiga (in the 'genre' sense) related then MorphOS(at least it runs amiga apps).
I dunno why people complain... perhaps your just jealous? because OS4 hasnt come out yet? I dunno... but I do think tollerating other peoples choices is important.
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hi mips_proc, are you refering to me or someone else?
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referring to people in general.... complaining that the other camp has some 'news' ... news is news...who cares where it came from...bieng jealous of news is lame... be jealous of the product...thats at least more fun to argue about.
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hi mips_proc,
Exactly!!!!
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but this is AMIGA.ORG not Morf/Peg.org
Right, but "AMIGA" as defined at this web site means relevant to classic Amiga computers and software. "Morf/Peg" are a PPC solution for running classic Amiga software, so they're relevant here, as relevant as, say, the AmigaOS4/AmigaOne. "Amiga" here does not mean "officially connected to the activities of Amiga, Inc." This definition both leaves out obviously relevant news and includes irrelevant topics, as people have been pointing out.
-- gary_c
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nice to see you posting again gary
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@chromozone, Removing mos from the main page is a solution, but its a solution to a problem that we dont have. If the problem was that mos didnt belong on amiga.org then it would be the right solution, but mos does belong here so its not the solution. Dont get me wrong, im not a mos supporter and its certainly not my preffered solution, but im man enought to admit that there is as much right for it to be here as there is aos.
As you said "What is Pissing me off is the Hype is turning up in every thread, where it does not belong !" BINGO!. That is the real problem and the one that needs some attention, although it appears that getting help from the sites administrators on this topic seems all the more futile, especially lately, i have not tried to involve myself until now but it appears to me that they are not as impartial as they are trying to convince us recently. But thats another topic i will address in a bit... Anyway, the real problem with a.org lately (and yes there is a problem one wayne) is that if a thread is started that is focused on aos or mos, it os soon poluted by the opposing zealots spewing insults and , i dont mean to say that all mos users are zealots, i pray they are not, but some are, and there are just as many amiga zealots i would imagine. This is the real problem, I keep on saying it, and saying it, and saying it, the bitch fights going on have drawn out any dignity we once had as the pinnacle of electronic communites and left us with a high proportion of shallow, disrespecting users with no compassion and less tact than school yard bullies.
Wayne, or whoever would like to step up to the plate and take responsibility for a.org, there is a problem, for your own sake, i suggest you accept and address it with a little more urgency than you are. Plain and simply, i honestly believe that this site needs the aos community, your not telling them they cant be here, but your certainly showing little effort to make them feel welcome. Perhaps a.org may survive without them, but it surely wont thrive again. I will give an example of what will happen in future should the problem not be addresses...
aos users leave a.org
mos users then are the sole users of a.org
mr newbie looking for aos news comes to a.org from search engine
mr newbie posts thread requesting on aos
mr newbie is flamed to hell and leaves with deep animosity for both aos and mos
In the example there are NO winners, mos doesnt get a new user, aos doesnt get a new user, both are now seem in a bad light, but worst of all, some poor guy or gal had been deprived from what could have been a new computing platform that could have been bliss for there particular needs.
You may be pissed with a-inc now, but chances are hyperion will shine thru, and if you cut yourself off from that community at this early stage then your only doing damage to yourself and all communities. Yes you can of course have mos here, aros here, amithlon here, emulation here etc etc, but without aos??? i dont think even you would deny that it would be detrimental.
Solution? well thats your problem! all we can do is help with suggestions (suggestions being the operative word people, *not* demands) my suggestion. I guess a small step forward would be to create forums for each solution, eg a aos area and a mos area, where any posts that deter, insult, degrade or troll against the os in focus would be banned. At least both communities could feel a little safety where they can post what they like without having to worry about the other camp lighting fires. I guess it would go for news items comments as well. Having a news item about os features turning into an insult fest really isnt on... Obviously some more thought needs to be put into the right soilution, so i suggest you get started, because im tired. Tired of the constant strain i feel by visiting here.
A message to the mos people that dont want aos people here, I am looking forward aos and support hyperion fully, i will remain at a.org for eternity, no amount of insults will remove me as im far stronger willed and less impressionable than that, and im not alone, so for your own sake, lets start getting along
A message to the aos people that dont want mos people here, read the above paragraph, switch the os's, you get the drift...
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Hello teotwin,
I agree with you about the "constant" fights between Amiga and MorphOS supporters.
But did you look in what kind of threads/topics the real fights are?
Most of those threads/topics were more of the imaginative kind. A lot of speculations etc.
Or reactions on statements of bbrv.
I time ago I started the review of my Pegasos (to my delight it's on the frontpage again :-D).
And look how this one turned out to be (to be honest, I was a little bit scared it wouldn´t turn out to stay "clean")!
My feelings are, if someone posts something "real" without assumptions, not making off-topic comments etc., people will have "fun" reading it.
I like to read about other solutions even if I don´t own that particular piece of software or hardware. :-)
We just should check those other topics, the "not-real" ones.
I´m thinking about the G4 modules for MorphOS, also the release date of the new Pegasos II, the double cpu module for A1, ofcourse also the waiting part of OS4, etc.
These kind of topics tends to get heated after a while, because the subject isn´t here yet, so you can speculate, etc.
I think when OS4 is out for public, these fights will be less than at this moment.
Spidey
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....we can only hope!
:-)
Raquel and Bill
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Hi bbrv,
....we can only hope!
Me too!
This market is small already.
It would be best for it if everbody would cooperate.
Ofcourse I'm thinking of a consumers perspective and not from a company's perspective! :-D
But I really think it would be nice if someday a consumer could buy the software MorphOS and run it on his A1 hardware or buy the software OS4 and run it on his Pegasos hardware.
Personally I think the software parties would get more profit if this was the case. :-)
Spidey
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@spidey
One thing that disturbs me, is that i now feel that i cannot post speculation and assumptions here without being called a fudder. Eg, I can speculate that aos will go x86 and im be happy with that speculation. Its not fud, you may not like it but its what i look forward to and wish will happen. I have no proof, i have no evidence, i have no supporting facts at all, i have nothing but hope. And if someone were to flame me about my hopes, especially if they call my hope fud, take cover, becuase i will turn ugly damn quick...
Id rather speculate on what could be and keep hope for the future than not express myself and have myself restricted to the moment.
However i agree that speculations can be detrimental, eg speculating the fall of an os. Perhaps the intentions of the person speculationg are the more relevant topic. One thing i see happening is people are focusing too finely on details. They covertely mask there true intentions of malice by picking apart small insignificant aspects of a topic. Its the end usablility of a system that determine its real value, when we get to that point, then you can start arguing the merits of each solution. Until then, your just making yourselves look pathetic. thats not directed at anyone, just a general observation of mine btw
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Hi teotwin,
"One thing that disturbs me, is that i now feel that i cannot post speculation and assumptions here without being called a fudder...."
To be honest, I feel this too!
So I don´t place it at this moment, perhaps it will change after this thread? :-D
I place my comments/reaction very carefully and phrase it when these are my feelings or opinions.
I see it more and more in topics, that people are stressing the part that it is their assumption/feeling/whatever.
(Just because someone will take a small insignificant and start an off-topic something about it!)
I too would like to see that OS4 would be available for all kinds of hardware!
Perhaps then I'll buy a x86 piece of hardware for me to play with at home! :-)
Spidey
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Well, for specific OS4 and MorphOS threads It wouldn't be a bad idea to make a separation in the forums section. For example if a program is compatible with Os3.x it would be in the general forum, but if it's only compatible with OS4 in the OS4 forum... same for MorphOS.
But at the moment I think that it's interesting for both sides to see the threads of the other, because there's not much stuff OS4 or MorphOS only...
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@Crumb "But at the moment I think that it's interesting for both sides to see the threads of the other, because there's not much stuff OS4 or MorphOS only..." of course, dont *restrict* what people can see and read, what i mean is that anti aos or pro mos posts should not appear in the aos area and vice versa...
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@ Spidey
My feelings are, if someone posts something "real" without assumptions, not making off-topic comments etc., people will have "fun" reading it.
...
I think when OS4 is out for public, these fights will be less than at this moment.
Exactly. I think that whenever Eyetech succeds in bringing the A1 to the market, and Hyperion is ready with their OS4, the situation will become much better. Then the speculations (based on uncertainty) will go away along with the frustration a lot of people feels about having only promises and announced specifications to discuss. I am sure that things will calm down eventually. I guess we'll see in just another two weeks! :-P
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There is the same problem with AROS as MorphOS, in what forum does it belong?
They doesn´t fit in Emulation, thats for Amithlon/Umilator and UAE and they don´t belong in the AlternativeOS section because thats for QNX, Linux and stuff.
So there should be an Amiga(3.x)CompatibleOS forum for MorphOS and AROS. But i still think those post should be on visible the frontpage.
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I think MorphOS needs it's own forum I agree there... that there should be a MorphOS forum. I mean one dedicated to just MorphOS
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@everyone
No new forums, sorry. If there is a discussion about AmigaForever, the package by Cloanto, there is no reason to drag it into a MorphOS/HyperionOS war. If the discussion is about how to install MUI on a classic A1200, there is no reason to drive that into a flamefest.
If people want to speculate about what Hyperion is doing, then don't immediately start throwing out MorphOS cheers. Conversly, if people are speculating about a missing feature in their MorphOS install--there is no point in bringing up a line out of Hyperion's feature-list.
Making a new forum won't solve a thing, so we aren't going to make new forums.
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well dont you think maybe MorphOS needs it's own forum... much as AmigaDE got its own forum.
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@mips_proc
Don't waste your time, it'll never happen. That's not part of "the plan". I know of a thread here that explains it, if you like obscure, pointless Greek stories. :lol:
Hint: do a forums search for "Greek" :-)
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Personaly I come by for clasiic advice and info, but this thread really got me. What's this now? the UN? relax a little bit. everybody is anxious. New goods will soon be out, ahem.
Chris
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Seriously Ray, all differences aside...did you like the story so far...:-D
Raquel and Bill :-)
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But when I come here AMIGA is my interest.
Me too, that is why I want to be able to talk about Pegasos.
but this is AMIGA.ORG not Morf/Peg.org
Why ppl still don't get it? Pegasos / MorphOS is "Amiga", or shou I call it "Amiga combatible" (like they used to say "IBM combatible" for PCs).
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@Targhan
I agree, there's no need for MorphOS specific forums on Amiga.org. Anyone really looking to discuss MOS issues in particular should hop over to MorphZone. That's what it's there for people!
What Amiga.org needs is a bit of restraint from people who insist on bringing MorphOS into every thread, or making irrelevant comments in threads just to register their presence. That's annoying and drives people away from the site.
OTOH, it would also be nice if the childish, petty, moronic and destructive people involved in the organised campaign against Wayne and Amiga.org were to stop it now, or else hie their unworthy hides outta here.
Blue trolls on one side and red trolls on the other. ARGH! Is it any wonder the whole community is ripped apart from top to bottom? At this rate I can make one certain prediction: there will be NO winners, only losers. Remember that.
:-(
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@hmetal,
I am most certainly not aware of what "the plan" is at this point, but I find your tone a bit abrasive in light of other recent comments..
The main reason that there should not be any MorphOS forums put up here is two-fold. One, all the "red trolls" (I'm beginning to enjoy that analogy) would go absolutely nuts screaming foul. Two, Fleecy would use that as yet another reason to threaten the existence of this site with "we intend to pull your domain" and "Amiga Inc is going to organize a 'mass exodus' from Amiga.org".
As I'm not interested in angering either color troll, or Fleecy for that matter, there will be no additional forums.
Because of your employment status, you really need to help a few specific people understand something. This site exists solely on the funds from our advertisers and contributors. Established in 1995 for the sole purpose of supporting the community (before Amiga Inc even existed), this is NOT AmigaInc.org, nor is it MorphOS.org.
This site exists to help members of the Classic Amiga community decide for themselves which direction THEY want to go in the future. This is how it should be.
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Bill
You you speak for me also on this issue.
@targhan
PS Id like to see an end to "HypeOS" "HyperionOS" used
as labels - it is "AmigaOS4" thank you very much. We
used to talk about AmigaOS3.1 and AmigaOS3.0 before
they were released I think that this should be no different.
I realise the intent is to show that "it is all just a name" but
frankly I think that is being petty and childish.
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Wayne
Amiga.inc actually say that about the site?(or fleecy speaking on his own behalf?)... why would they do that?... Amiga=female in Spanish and it did long before it =amiga computers... all ya'd need to do is pull all the amiga.inc amiga IP related stuff...and I dont think they would have much of a case although I'm no lawyer and my opinon is probably worthless on this matter I think I'm right.
for example... sgi.org isnt owned by silicon graphics... because the sokkia graphics institute got it first...and you cant push people over that easily.
pretty amazing that they would say those things though.
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@mips,
I'm not going to discuss it, for fear of angering the "gods" at Amiga Inc, but it is a barely veiled fact that they have threatened both actions, both to me personally and on various sealed mailing lists. A lot of the people here who are on those lists can verify what I'm saying, if they choose to do so. I on the other hand, feel that it's best to say "it happened" so that you are aware of the fact, and to leave it at that until necessary.
I'm personally hoping that neither threat comes to fruition. Amiga Inc doesn't understand a few facts in that we are now totally independent and driven by advertising. I've actually stressed the fact that Amiga Inc is more than welcomed to place an advertisement on this site if they want to show support for this community, but they cannot expect that I remove existing paid advertisers (thereby losing the funding from said advertiser) simply because they (Amiga Inc) don't like them.
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A lot of the people here who are on those lists can verify what I'm saying, if they choose to do so.
I choose to do so. Vouched for and verified - the threats were made. So Wayne's simple two-word statement of "it happened" is correct.
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well that's not ideal now is it...
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Wayne wrote:
Two, Fleecy would use that as yet another reason to threaten the existence of this site with "we intend to pull your domain"
Who was here first, You or AmigaInc?
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@takemehomegrandma
We were here before even Escom.
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mips_proc wrote:
well that's not ideal now is it...
It's sad and it's stupid! :-x :-(
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Wayne wrote:
@takemehomegrandma
We were here before even Escom.
That must count for something. I don't think it will be possible for them to just clap their hands and have someone to pull the plug.
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..... and "Amiga Inc is going to organize a 'mass exodus' from Amiga.org".
I wonder who is going to put two and two together
and come up with four.....
...if its not too much to ask how much would it cost
me to run a banner ad here for a year? 800USD? higher?
Lower?
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@DaveP
I wonder who is going to put two and two together and come up with four.....
Not me. I use an Intel powered calculator. :-P
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...if its not too much to ask how much would it cost
The cost is $1.00 per 1000 banner displays. Usually advertisements run about $400 to $500 per calendar year, but it's all based on the site's popularity. More visitors means more banners being displayed, means the banners expire faster.
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Hmmmmmm......... ..........eeeenteresting. :-D
/me has thinking cap on
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@Wayne
"The plan" I was referring to was the blatant advertisting and propaganda (or hijacking if you will) that certain individuals like to use all over topics where it is not only unsolicited but just plain ignorant (to the poster).
You recently locked/ended a thread that exhibits this "phenomena" quite sufficiently (the AmigaOS on Mac thread).
Personally, I couldn't give a hoot where they advertise but there comes a point where it gets to be too much for your visitors when they can't ask an targeted question without someone coming in and tooting their horn, completely off-topic (and yes, I'm purposely not mentioning names -- they know who they are and so do you).
You asked, there it is. I've said my piece and I'm now done with the topic. It's your site and only your policy will decide what kind of visitor you want, or if you want all the visitors you can get.
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@bhoggett
I hope you weren't referring to me as a troll. I have never trolled here and don't plan on it. I an seriously concerned about the site. Wayne and I, though we may disagree on some things here and there, have been friendly for quite some time.
In fact, you'll notice that I really haven't said much here about this whole split, until it started to affect the visitors to the site and their exodus.
P.S. It is the same thing your 2nd paragraph describes that is the base for my concern, and that concern goes both ways, even if the situation were reversed with the (as you call it) "red trolls" doing the "registration of presence."
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@mips_proc
I wouldn't believe a lick of it unless it actually happened. This information, as Wayne tells me, came from a third party who was speaking out of turn. It could be as simple as a very context-related suggestion or spitballing by someone that turned into something more.
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SilvrDrgn wrote:
A lot of the people here who are on those lists can verify what I'm saying, if they choose to do so.
I choose to do so. Vouched for and verified - the threats were made. So Wayne's simple two-word statement of "it happened" is correct.
Ditto
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Let's forget all this computer babble. Let's talk about football, beer and chicks. Should make everyone happy. Everyone in?
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Hooligan_DCS wrote:
Let's forget all this computer babble. Let's talk about football, beer and chicks. Should make everyone happy. Everyone in?
Damn straight :-D .
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HMetal wrote:
"The plan" I was referring to was the blatant advertisting and propaganda (or hijacking if you will) that certain individuals like to use all over topics where it is not only unsolicited but just plain ignorant (to the poster).
I don't agree with your assessment. Let's say someone posts a yes/no question about product A. There are two possible responses: 1) No, or 2) No, but product B, yes. Which of these is more informative? If you are aligned somehow with the company that makes product A, then of course mention of product B is a "hijacking" of the conversation. On the other hand, if you're the person who asked the question, then the "hijacking" is a positive thing -- additional information.
If I go into a store, look at a food mixer, and ask the salesperson "Can this thing whisk?" And the salesperson simply says "no" and walks off, that's not very good service if there's a mixer that can whisk sitting right next to the one I asked about. So in this way, people bringing up MorphOS or Pegasos aren't necessarily out of line even if the topic started out focused more on AmigaOS4/AmigaOne. That's my view, anyway; it's how I'd like things to be if I were the one looking for information.
...someone coming in and tooting their horn, completely off-topic....
Of course if someone does a "blue troll" post in a thread where it's completely irrelevant, that's no good, but I haven't actually seen much of that here. Most of the infamous bbrv posts, for example, come after the subject has already touched on blue territory. And the reason it was in blue territory is that there was some logical connection topic-wise, whether someone making a comparison, contrast, or whatever. Is it really substantive, logical irrelevance that people are seeing, or are they just reacting to the rather aggressive presence of an alternative?
OK, now about that beer.... :-P
-- gary_c
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To understand the reasons behind the name, we need to look back in time.
Back then things looked quite different; Classic Amigas didn't look like "past" as they do nowadays etc.
Regardless of your preferences for future system, it's a lot different from the times amiga.org was launched.
No matter what you say, the "definition" of Amiga.org has changed, but do you change your name every time, you change your opinions a bit?
Amiga.org is called amiga.org becouse then people can access it by typing "www.amiga.org" into browser as they've always done.
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@hmetal
Whats a spitballing? :-o
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gary_c wrote:
And the salesperson simply says "no" and walks off, that's not very good service if there's a mixer that can whisk sitting right next to the one I asked about
...and the salesperson....
I think you said it all.
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gary_c wrote:
HMetal wrote:
"The plan" I was referring to was the blatant advertisting and propaganda (or hijacking if you will) that certain individuals like to use all over topics where it is not only unsolicited but just plain ignorant (to the poster).
I don't agree with your assessment. Let's say someone posts a yes/no question about product A. There are two possible responses: 1) No, or 2) No, but product B, yes. Which of these is more informative?
Gary_c, of course you are right. In a healthy discussion you should be able to discuss anything and everything, from a lot of different angles. Grown ups usually can handle different oppinnions and can find arguments to discuss *their* point of view, instead of just censor away the differences.
The problem with product "A" is that there is not much to discuss. Nobody have seen it. Nobody have experiances from it. It has a lot of frustration connected to it because of constant delays and lack of info.
With product "B" on the other hand (or should we say product "M" ;-) (OH NO, he did it again! The thread is hijacked, the thread is hijacked. Quick hurry to the lifeboats. Women and children first. Lets go to amigaworld.net)) it's the other way around. There is lots to discuss. News is coming in regularly, and more important, new products such as games and applications.
That is the root to this "problem" IMO (I wouldn't even call it a problem really). Some people tends to see only the symptoms but not the root itself. But I'm sure the situation will change once there will be more about the "A" to discuss. The real problem is rather some mono-minded individuals who can not tolerate discussions outside their own narrow views.
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basically what your saying is...the people screaming conspiracy and such are actually just angry or delusional about Pegasos/MorphOS news actually existing?
now that *couldnt possibly* believe....
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Hello takemehomegrandma,
Yep, a sort of the same I wrote down on page two of this thread.
I really think that when OS4 comes available these kind of discussions will change in positive discussions of merits of the different products. Now we're dealing with a lot of speculations on all sides.
Ofcourse you'll keep people who want to "light a fire", that is unavoidable in open forums. But if you don't give them any "tinder" they can't make a big fire, in other words, don't pay attention to them :-D
Spidey
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mips_proc wrote:
basically what your saying is...the people screaming conspiracy and such are actually just angry or delusional about Pegasos/MorphOS news actually existing?
now that *couldnt possibly* believe....
I´m not sure what you mean there ...
Anyway, my point is that some people seems to be very angry with the fact that a lot of threads and posts is about Pegasos/MorphOS and very few about A1/OS4. That is not because of "evil moderation" or "conspiracys". It´s because of the scew news flow and lack of products on the "A" side. No need for separate forums. No need for new websites that censor away everything but a narrow vision from a certain company. What's needed is more news and (most of all) actual products on the A1/OS4 side to get things more balanced. What's needed is a more open minded attitude from some individuals towards different oppinions. Individuals that puts up some arguments of their own to get the discussion going instead of just moan and cry "hijack hijack". BTW, Gary_c's post about this "hijacking" issue is very good and nicely written (as the posts from him always are :-)). I would like to second to his view of things in that matter.
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My brother is in the internet business, and offered to buy a domain for $5000, a domain that had his companies trademark.
This was a few years ago, the kid who owned it, actually had the gumption to hold out for more money. After a year or two of negotiations, which they dutifully entertained...finally they decided he wasn't really ever going to be realistic. They brought in the lawyers and just took the domain, and paid him nothing.
It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's trademark. There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on here...Amiga is spanish word for girlfriend, but as amusing as it would be, for people to suggest this site is really a collection of girlfriends having discussions...lmao...dang that is funny...it just isn't reality. Amiga in this case, stands for the Amiga computer, the trademark is owned by Amiga Inc.
I had suggested a while back that Amiga should refer to a generic class of home computers, but that never really flew, so I think we are stuck.
With that said, I think Amiga, Inc. should offer to PAY for amiga.org, if they really want the name. They should realize amiga.org could continue easily under a different name. And they should realize they are going to upset all but their most loyal worshippers if they act rashly. And they should WELL KNOW, they will never build a market from that group of witless geeks.
I know I should leave out that last line, but I can't. I am simply disgusted at too deep a level by petty people who cannot handle differing opinions.
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MarkTime wrote:
> My brother is in the internet business, and offered
> to buy a domain for $5000, a domain that had his
> companies trademark.
> This was a few years ago, the kid who owned it,
> actually had the gumption to hold out for more
> money. After a year or two of negotiations, which
> they dutifully entertained...finally they decided he
> wasn't really ever going to be realistic. They
> brought in the lawyers and just took the domain,
> and paid him nothing.
What were the lawyers for? AFAIK you cannot sue for domain names, and ICANN is legally responsible for name disputes.
> It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's
> trademark.
A domain name is an address, not a trademark. I could live on "13 Cocacola Road" and not be legally in breach of a trademark.
> There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on
> here...Amiga is spanish word for girlfriend, but as
> amusing as it would be, for people to suggest this
> site is really a collection of girlfriends having
> discussions...lmao...dang that is funny...it just isn't
> reality. Amiga in this case, stands for the Amiga
> computer, the trademark is owned by Amiga Inc.
Amiga.ORG is in the ORG TLD, which is not reserved for business, in fact, if you look at the charter for the ORG top-level domain, it was specifically NOT meant for businesses.
let's not forget that Amiga.org was called Amiga.org long before Amiga Inc was a company. How can this be? how can Amiga Inc use the name then? because an address isn't a trademark.
it's kind of moot, they own Amiga.COM. you are not entitled to every Top level Domain containing your trademark in the title. Not legally, and not according to ICANN rules.
> With that said, I think Amiga, Inc. should offer to
> PAY for amiga.org, if they really want the name.
They have the name, as a .COM. The .ORG is unavailable, as it was taken before Amiga inc existed. You cant just start a company, then go out and commandeer preexisting websites. If that were so, I'm going to start a company called and take their name from them.
Why don't they want AMIGA.NET as well, they don't own that either? Oh yea, that wouldn't satisfy their grudge.
> They should realize amiga.org could continue
> easily under a different name.
So can any site. Does that mean Amiga.COM should be given up to one of the other companies named "Amiga"? like the Amiga hotel, etc?
This domain name bickering that happens all over the net is annoying. Addresses are not trademarks... If they were, then Wayne would own the Amiga trademark having had it first.
Oh, and my brother in law would own the trademark PowerAmiga since he owns that .com domain :-P Addresses arn't trademarks.
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It is a fact, that you cannot hold someone's trademark. There isn't a lot of legal wiggling that can go on here...
you can hold someones trademark on a website under certin circumstances.
it's a dot-org bieng one of the big ones.
this site was around before there was an amiga.inc and was around before 'amiga' was even the name of any entity.
if they argued they owned this domain/etc they would have to fight pretty hard for it because the courts made 'squatters rights' go away ...not all copyrights...
This site isnt trying to get Amiga.inc to buy it... it was here before them... it will probably be here when their gone... and I think if it ever came to court Wayne could plead a pretty good case.
If what you said is true...then any company could go and search for the name of any dot-com he liked.... spend 50$ on .inc with that name... and then rob the domain from the person with it... you cant do that...
but really...even if this site where amiga.inc owned...and wayne had another site... I'd go there... not here... because I'm not interested in AmigaDE or any of their products.
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To hopefully put an end to this, I have heard about a hundred different legal opinions from a hundred different people. While each of you have valid points, each of them are completely pointless and useless to debate.
It all comes down to a question of "have I acted in what ICANN would consider bad faith"? In my opinion, I don't believe so. I have run this site, supporting the Amiga community (it is NOT run for the Amiga COMPANY, and I am NOT here to act as their free Public Relations department) for 8 years. This is before Escom, This is before Gateway, This is long before the current owners even existed as a company and long before most of the current AI management even knew what an Amiga is. None of them in my personal opinion have a single clue about what an Amiga was to the users it affected.
I have not sold this site to a competitor, nor have I acted in bad faith to promote other solutions. If anything, I have tried to act in good faith where presenting every possible solution to the community equally. The recent server relocation is an example of my dedication to becoming truly neutral.
That being said, if I am guilty of anything, it is of having personal opinions and letting those opinions interfere with this site. For this, I publicly apologize. I only ask that you consider that it's very hard to literally be lied to by a small but important group of people for a very long time and NOT have it show in your actions.
In the end, this site is for the Amiga community and any solution the community wants. The Amiga community does not, nor has it ever, nor should it ever belong to Amiga Inc for the mere reason that they licensed some intangible words on paper.
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Amen!
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t_bone,
I don't want anyone to think I am in favor of Amiga, Inc. taking action.
But I don't understand why the mistake of confusing a trademark with the name of a company keeps coming up over and over again.
Windows is a trademark. The companies name is Microsoft...it isn't windows.
The sames goes for Amiga...the companies name that made the trademark? Maybe it was originally Lorraine...and then later Commodore, and then later Escom, and then Gateway, and then licensed to Amino...or some say still held by Gateway.
Of course, I doubt Gateway is going to take action here.
But its absurd to suggest that Amiga.org predates the Amiga trademark.
It just doesn't take any kind of lawyer to know that this site was created as a fan site for Amiga computers, and so OF COURSE it was created after the Amiga computer was created (and the trademark registered).
AHHH I just so doubt Gateway is really going to do anything about this site, that its just an idle threat on the part of Amiga, Inc.
but I will comment on your other thoughts, in a later thread...and see if I can clarify, or if I made any mistakes....give me a chance to find out more....
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ok, to answer the other questions...
the lawyers are for suing in Federal Court.
You must demonstrate someone has a confusingly similar name (Amiga.org re: Amiga, Inc.) and that they are acting in bad faith.
Hense, I don't think my post was wrong, only that I didn't understand that its a bit more difficult for Amiga, Inc. to act in this case...as compared to my brothers.
this is u.s. law, btw, for people not familiar....
Anyway, my brother's case was easier, because he was dealing with a cyber squatter, who most definately was acting in bad faith.
Amiga.org is not acting in bad faith at all.
I wasn't suggesting they hit up Amiga, Inc for money...btw, only that Amiga, Inc. should offer money...(if they really want it)....
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Amiga.org is not acting in bad faith at all.
Thank you.
I wasn't suggesting they hit up Amiga, Inc for money...btw, only that Amiga, Inc. should offer money...(if they really want it)....
This whole thing came about because somewhere the rumor was started that I had sold this site, including the kitchen sink, to Amiga Inc's competitor.
If that were true, they would have a cut and clear case to remove the domain. It is not however true and I have continually tried to point out the truth.
This boils down to one thing. There was an element here (Mike Bouma be his name) who continually harrassed and pounded me because Amiga.org was hosted on Amiga Inc's servers. He (and to be fair, at least two others) felt that since I was using their servers, I should work as Amiga Inc's free public relations department, forsaking all other alternatives (MOS, UAE, etcetera).
As a direct result, I worked with friends to come up with a way to host Amiga.org on our own. When we moved the servers, Mike Bouma and crew realized they had lost their zealotous ability to try and force my actions of this Web site.
As such, they then used the server move to float a rumor that we had "sold out" to Fleecy (who is prone to reactionism), which placed amigaworld.net at the center of the controversy, gaining membership by nothing more than the lies told by Mike Bouma. This, as far as I can tell was simply a desire for retaliatory action by Mike Bouma for his cause of "Amiga purity" and not for anything realistic.
For the record, I wish the best to amigaworld.net as I feel Davey will do a good job. As they are learning however, there is no such thing as an Amiga community without controversy. This is not a place for puritanical zealots of any measure, no matter what they support.
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> I don't want anyone to think I am in favor of Amiga,
> Inc. taking action.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were.
About the trademark thing... I'm not saying it's invalid because a trademark and company name are two different things, I'm saying a trademark and an address are two different things. An address specifies "where' something is, not what it is or who owns that location. People incorrectly think of an internet address as a "name" when it should be viewed just as you would a street address.
Seeing as how Amiga Inc, already operate on Amiga dotcom, saying the Org (which is intended for organizations, not businesses) confuses the trademark is weak.
lets look at precident... What company in the US uses a dot-ORG instead of a dot-COM for it's corporate website?
Amiga claiming BAD FAITH?, oh man, I could have a FIELD day :-D
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T_Bone wrote:
I'm saying a trademark and an address are two different things ...
There are lots of examples of completely different companies that share some common parts of their regeistered company names. Add trademarks to that. Add worldwide to that. Every single one could make claims for a dotcom address with that common part of the name, and all claims would be valid. But addresses and corporate names/trademarks are (as you say) two different things. *Who is first wins*.
Seeing as how Amiga Inc, already operate on Amiga dotcom, saying the Org (which is intended for organizations, not businesses) confuses the trademark is weak.
Absolutely! Especially since it's a community domain and the community was here *long* before the current AmigaInc.
Amiga claiming BAD FAITH?, oh man, I could have a FIELD day :-D
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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@t_bone,
I do agree with your assessment of the likely motivations of Amiga, Inc. and the concept of a domain name as an address.
I understand why Amiga, Inc. doesn't buy into the bajillion different domains now offered...thats very expensive (100's if you count all the country domains)...so, naturally, they wouldn't have registered Amiga.org, and naturally, they don't need it any more than they need amiga.net.
By the way, .net is supposed to be for ISPs but that is almost never enforced and you see, for example AmigaWorld.net....
Whatever happened to that, did Icann change the rules?
And AI would have a legitimate claim if say, Apple computer bought Amiga.org and started selling Macintoshes to the Amiga market.
I don't know exactly how this .org is an organization, I'm not familiar with the structure of this organization or how to become a member. but I do know that this is legitimately a community bulletin board serving the interests of the Amiga community, and not a profit venture, even if it is subsidized by some banner ads.
So....I'm beating a dead horse (not me!), but I think everything is good in the world, and I don't see Amiga, Inc. doing anything but making veiled threats....it seems that is their habit, judging from the various stories over the past year.
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@T_Bone
Even though this isn't a present issue and you guys are dragging this so far into the mud that you're just making it worse and apt to turn into yet another red vs. blue flame-fest, I need to make a correction and have you look at some recent cases; one in particular..
Have a look at "World Wrestling Federation v. World Wildlife Fund". While the case was about a brand across the board, it also included websites & domain names.
..I mention this only for informational background, not as any sort of threat or confirmation of action. I'm a WWF fan so that's the only reason I know the case well.