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The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on December 27, 2011, 02:39:59 PM

Title: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: SysAdmin on December 27, 2011, 02:39:59 PM
http://informationweek.com/news/windows/microsoft_news/232300785
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on December 27, 2011, 04:48:37 PM
Feh, more Wired bullcrap about The Tablet Future. I've been a longtime Windows user, but one look at Win8 killed any hope I had of things remaining tolerable. I'll keep running XP until I can't get a new laptop that will run it; from there I'll see if 7 can be tweaked to be acceptable to me, and if not I'll just pray that I can get the XP desktop environment running through WINE on Linux.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: huronking on December 28, 2011, 04:14:56 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;673101
Feh, more Wired bullcrap about The Tablet Future. I've been a longtime Windows user, but one look at Win8 killed any hope I had of things remaining tolerable. I'll keep running XP until I can't get a new laptop that will run it; from there I'll see if 7 can be tweaked to be acceptable to me, and if not I'll just pray that I can get the XP desktop environment running through WINE on Linux.



I hate M$ with every bone in my body but I have to admit that 7 gives me surprisingly little to bitch about.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on December 28, 2011, 06:23:01 AM
It looks annoying, but I haven't actually done much with it, so I don't know if it's easily tweakable to be more like XP...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on December 28, 2011, 06:43:19 AM
Would be business suicide for them to release it without an easy 1 click option (or registry tweak) to default to the standard Win 7 traditional style computing desktop, at least on the x86 platform.  There is simply too much corporate business they would lose if they forced the Metro UI, and we're a long ways from people being able to productively use a PC with a gesture/touch UI for real computing or data input.  Win 8 is not a heck of a lot more than Win 7 underneath the Metro UI anyways when it comes down to brass tacks - they would prefer you not know this, as most serious users won't buy Win 8 knowing that, heh.  Try the Win 8 beta and you'll see it plain as day, and the differences between the current beta on x86 will not be all that different than RTM versions.

The ARM version of W 8, I do expect that to be Metro only though - it'll be the "tablet" version of Win 8.

The day comes where I am forced to use my hands like an ape fighting with coconuts on the monitor to input data into a database is the day I change to another real computing OS with a real desktop interface.  We simply at not at the point where touch is a workable enough solution to force upon serious computer users, and the corporate market is a vast % of MS's business - which will be using keyboards and a mouse for a long time to come.

Win 7, for a MS product, as painful as it is to admit - is a quite pleasant experience.  Win 7 is a walk in the park on a sunny day with a cute girl compared to Vista, which was nothing more than a never ending root canal comparison/pain wise.  It's no classic, friendly OS like Amiga OS, but it's light years ahead of what Windows used to be.  Vista was bad, comparable to Windows ME, Active Desktop, and MS "Bob" on the pain-o-meter.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on January 04, 2012, 09:22:51 PM
The tablet thing is significant but I think a lot of people come at it the wrong way.

It's not that tablets and smartphones are replacing computers for people who want computers.
They are replacing computers for people that want to do computer things, but never wanted a computer otherwise. Facebook, email, instant messaging, basic web browsing etc.

There's a wealth of people I know that barely use their computer except to write the occasional letter, but they are online almost every waking hour on some portable device.

When you factor in that in that environment, manufacturer/vendor lockdown is widely accepted, and piracy is a lot harder, it becomes a nobrainer for someone like microsoft to follow the trail.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on January 04, 2012, 09:45:00 PM
Even supposing that's true (I think there's a lot of people who might think they want a controlled, web-specific environment, until they're actually forced to live with one,) they'd be alienating a lot of users (professionals especially, but more than a few personal users as well) if they don't give the option to keep the standard interface. Look how much hell's been raised even by GNOME 3's comparatively small changes, and try to imagine what happens if the best-selling OS in the world tries to force users into even bigger changes.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on January 04, 2012, 09:48:26 PM
I don't disagree with you, but you are speaking of computer guys. People who expect to get in there under the hood and get dirty.

Most people are just consumers, who want to post on facebook. BUt they spend money too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on January 04, 2012, 09:59:49 PM
I really don't think that's true. I think it's a sort of half-truth (half-lie) that people have heard repeated so often that they've begun to accept it. I know plenty of non-techies who use their computers for well more than Facebook, and who are quite happy with the standard desktop UI model and don't really want change. (In fact, I just spoke with a friend/tech-support client the other day who expressed a desire to go back to XP!)

People are mostly okay with Vista/7, I think, because despite the aesthetic tweaks it doesn't really screw around with what already works (too much.) But if Microsoft tries to force users into a different model, I think there's going to be a lot of backlash.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on January 04, 2012, 10:19:03 PM
Maybe Im just surrounded by hipsters then :)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on January 04, 2012, 10:20:50 PM
Well, you do live in Portland...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on January 04, 2012, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;674373
Well, you do live in Portland...


Hah, yes. I think I can probably clear out a coffee shop by carrying my old IBM model M keyboard in there ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: haywirepc on January 04, 2012, 11:01:29 PM
Personally, I'm tired of hearing people herald the death of the desktop pc.

Tablets are nice, but what if you actual create digital content like graphics, audio or video? Your not doing that comfortably on a tablet so I think desktop pcs will still be around for a long long time, if nothing else as digital content editing workstations.

Steven
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on January 04, 2012, 11:12:25 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;674381
Personally, I'm tired of hearing people herald the death of the desktop pc.

Tablets are nice, but what if you actual create digital content like graphics, audio or video? Your not doing that comfortably on a tablet so I think desktop pcs will still be around for a long long time, if nothing else as digital content editing workstations.

Steven


It's not dying. It's just that sales are tapering off, because there's more competition in the market, and people are less inclined, I think, to do the habitual 2 or 3 year upgrades that was so common in the 90s and 2000s
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on January 04, 2012, 11:15:26 PM
I'm with most of you on this.
Tablets are a bit painful as a substitute for a PC.
Kind of like carrying around a giant cell phone
 
Anyone remember those giant novelty TV remotes?
 
Honestly, if I have to carry around something that big, I want a real fricking keyboard.
 
And Windows 8, why?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Arkhan on February 13, 2012, 02:55:06 PM
Tablets are trash.  How are you supposed to program on that touchy-pokey doucheinterface.

My dad's tablet has been sent flying at the wall repeatedly because it's an annoying piece of crap.

Things moving tablet centric = stupid.  Windows 8 sucks so far (There's a dev-test image you can screw with)

All the pop-art inspired jive can suck it.  It's dumb.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 03:00:30 PM
I'd second the opinion that a tablet centered UI for all Windows8 computers is seriously dumb.

Microsoft's problem is that older windows variants are still perfectly usable.

Something tells me Win8 will not be that great a success and that WinXP, Vista, and Win7 will be around for quite awhile longer.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: jorkany on February 13, 2012, 03:13:46 PM
Windows 8 is like Windows 1 - you can either have a bunch of small panes tiled together, or a full-screen.

Remember how popular Windows 1 was?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 03:19:17 PM
Quote from: jorkany;680380
Windows 8 is like Windows 1 - you can either have a bunch of small panes tiled together, or a full-screen.

Remember how popular Windows 1 was?

Not really. We had it on the shelf for sale.
But I don't remember actually using a version of Windows till some IBM engineers gave me a beta copy of Windows 3.0.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 13, 2012, 03:29:29 PM
Frankly I enjoy Facebook far more through my iPad than I do through a desktop computer.    That aside, the market for desktops is dismal, it hasn't gone anywhere in years.  The GROWTH is in mobile devices. Yes, Microsoft's 90% of the desktop market will deliver a nice steady return year after year for at least a decade more.  But nice steady return with a fade out possible in a couple decades is what is commonly called retirement and is presumably not the way to run a computer company.

Touch interfaces are here to stay, at least until direct neural input is possible.  On the desktop we'll see traditional keyboards and trackpads/mice augmented by touch.  Nobody wants to do database entry on a touch screen, but what about occasionally touching to get a photo in the right angle?  Or on a browser?  Or in iTunes?

Nowadays, people have multiple computing devices.  Desktops, laptops, tablets and smartphones.  Some people can live with just one of these, but a large number have more than one.  I love my iPad, it's nice to kick back and surf the web on it.  If I have serious work to do, there's always my MacPro and of course my iPhone for simple quick things there's my iPhone.  Several times now I've found myself just sitting down to eat a restaurant and getting the call from work that one of my servers is having problems.  It's usually a two minute fix, and I can easily do it with my iPhone.  What I'm finding though is my MacBook (laptop) is starting to gather dust.  I now pretty much only need it in hotels during overnight stays.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 03:57:27 PM
Persia,
I don't doubt tablets are here to stay. I fact I was looking at a 7" one yesterday because I thought it might be convenient to carry around the house.

I just hope that Win8 features an alternate to its touch based UI as I don't feel comfortable with that or require it on a desktop.

In some ways, touch is a bigger pain then an advantage.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 04:35:47 PM
Quote from: Arkhan;680378
Tablets are trash.  How are you supposed to program on that touchy-pokey doucheinterface.
You're not. The whole idea is to keep you from unauthorized activities like programming by giving you one controlled source for all your software. Tinkerers are dangerous!

Quote from: Iggy;680379
Microsoft's problem is that older windows variants are still perfectly usable.
 
 Something tells me Win8 will not be that great a success and that WinXP, Vista, and Win7 will be around for quite awhile longer.
This is exactly it - they've been struggling to keep people upgrading ever since XP, the only real architectural improvement 7/Vista has to offer is better integration of 64-bit mode, AFAIK. Everything else they could just as easily release as XP service packs.

Quote from: Iggy;680382
Quote from: jorkany;680380
Windows 8 is like Windows 1 - you can either have a bunch of small panes tiled together, or a full-screen.
 
  Remember how popular Windows 1 was?
 Not really. We had it on the shelf for sale.
Psst, the answer is "was laughed out of the market." The difference, of course, is that the Microsoft of 1985 knew it was stupid, and only disabled free placement of windows because Apple was going around suing everybody, whereas whatever idiot design students they've got on the Metro team probably think they're being "elegant."

Quote from: persia;680384
That aside, the market for desktops is dismal, it hasn't gone anywhere in years.  The GROWTH is in mobile devices.
HP doesn't seem to think so, they decided to keep manufacturing PCs after toying with the idea of quitting, but they didn't feel the need to keep their tablet business alive...

Quote
Touch interfaces are here to stay, at least until direct neural input is possible.  On the desktop we'll see traditional keyboards and trackpads/mice augmented by touch.  Nobody wants to do database entry on a touch screen, but what about occasionally touching to get a photo in the right angle?  Or on a browser?  Or in iTunes?
Why would I want an interface that requires me to lift my hand up to the screen when I can just as easily (if not more easily) point and click by moving my hand over six inches to the mouse (if it isn't there already?) Touchscreens at least make some kind of sense on smartphones, where the screen is small enough to be easily covered by finger and wrist motion - on desktop screen sizes (and desktop screen positions) they just make no damn sense.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 13, 2012, 05:40:29 PM
@commodorejohn

When mice first came out I heard a lot of people complaining "why would I take my hands off my keyboard to go way over to use the mouse?"  Times change.  Personally I got rid of my mouse in favour of a trackpad  some time ago, and much of the touchscreen gestures are are already present in a trackpad.  I can see times where you'll want to touch a monitor.  Touch takes away the abstractness.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 13, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
@Iggy

I think that Microsoft will probably leave some kind of Windows ball for the old folks to play with, but the younger generation will likely never even see a Windows ball or know that it once held a clunky way to access your programs...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 05:56:05 PM
Quote from: persia;680394
When mice first came out I heard a lot of people complaining "why would I take my hands off my keyboard to go way over to use the mouse?"
Yes, but the mouse offers the concrete advantage of being faster and more intuitive in some situations. Touchscreens aren't faster than a mouse at desktop screen sizes, and they aren't so much more intuitive that they'll make up for the annoyance of using them in a desktop situation. Try holding your arm aloft for long stretches of time, and see whether that's more comfortable than resting your mousing arm on the desk (with an armrest) for long stretches of time.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 13, 2012, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: runequester;674386
It's not dying. It's just that sales are tapering off, because there's more competition in the market, and people are less inclined, I think, to do the habitual 2 or 3 year upgrades that was so common in the 90s and 2000s


This.  I upgraded to an I7 from my pentium 4 not because I could do more work on it, but just because of a desire to get back into time-wasting PC games.  I didn't really NEED to upgrade.  I still have that p4 - it was my main computer for 7 years.  the rollover is certainly slowing down.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 13, 2012, 06:27:19 PM
Quote from: persia;680384
...What I'm finding though is my MacBook (laptop) is starting to gather dust.  I now pretty much only need it in hotels during overnight stays.


Also this!  I am finding the same thing, although I don't have an iPad.  Big I7 for games and programming, iPhone for most else, and my macbook is kind of a glorified notebook and the apple platform to test my java programs on or how webpages render in Safari.  My feeling is the laptops are the doomed form factors.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on February 13, 2012, 06:46:54 PM
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;680406
Also this! I am finding the same thing, although I don't have an iPad. Big I7 for games and programming, iPhone for most else, and my macbook is kind of a glorified notebook and the apple platform to test my java programs on or how webpages render in Safari. My feeling is the laptops are the doomed form factors.

It doesn't help that a lot of laptops are so heavy, hot and awkward that they really aren't very convenient. Throw in that they are a pain to repair, often hard to expand and yeah, sucks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 13, 2012, 07:54:13 PM
@commodorejohn

Did I say you had only one choice?  Pad/Mouse AND Touch Screen.  They are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what Steve Jobs (PBUH) seems to have said.  The main problem is money.  With an iPad you have one 10 inch screen to have touch sensitive, with a desktop you have 2 or 3 screens, one or more of which may be 27 inches....
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 07:56:41 PM
I didn't say it was an either/or proposition, I said that touchscreens simply have no advantage over the mouse in a desktop environment at all. They cost more and don't offer any improvement, and are therefore useless in that context, whether you use them in addition to a mouse or not.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: bloodline on February 13, 2012, 08:13:40 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680416
I didn't say it was an either/or proposition, I said that touchscreens simply have no advantage over the mouse in a desktop environment at all. They cost more and don't offer any improvement, and are therefore useless in that context, whether you use them in addition to a mouse or not.
Touchscreen's don't really seem to be suited to the desktop... But then I'm not sure the desktop has long left for this world... I use a laptop at work (though it is chained to the desk), and only have laptops at home now... The tablet, or rather the iPad (since no other tablet computer has really taken off yet), has encroached on much of the traditional Laptop space, while the laptop has taken most of the desktop space (though there will always been a need for more powerful machines that can't exist in laptop form).

It would be crazy to think that newer smaller forms of computing won't eventually replace the larger older units... Look at what happened to Mainframes, then Minicomputers, etc...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 08:29:15 PM
Yes and no. Certainly desktops are losing some of their niche to laptops, but I don't buy this "death of the desktop" nonsense. For one thing, computer miniaturization is not an unending linear progression - there's hard physical limits to these things, and practical limits well before that. And desktops still offer some definite advantages over laptops - much greater expansion capability and ease of repair/upgrade, for example. Aside from the introduction of the "netbook" form factor, laptops haven't really made any steps to match that - you can't upgrade a laptop (aside from adding RAM,) only replace it, and replacing it hasn't gotten any cheaper. A mid-range laptop now costs about what a mid-range laptop cost in 2004, only the specs have changed.

And I'll note that while the bulky, workhorse portion of mainframes and minis was superceded (for most purposes) by desktop PCs, the fundamental user interaction (typing on a keyboard and, later, using a mouse) remained just the same...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 08:49:30 PM
Good points John.
I like having a real keyboard.
Laptop keyboards are a poor substitute.
Phones, if they have a keyboard, offer ridiculously small keys.
And tablets don't have real keyboards.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: desiv on February 13, 2012, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: Iggy;680424
I like having a real keyboard.

Yes, but frequently people like having real keyboards because the things they do have been designed with keyboards in mind....

As more and more work/time goes into the touch interface, people will find themselves wanting a real keyboard less and less.

I spend a LOT of time on real keyboards, but its either at work (business will be "desktop computer safe" for quite a while) or at home.. on my Amigas...  ;-)

I almost never use my PC anymore..

I use the laptop for watching Netflix and some Internet stuff, but if my tablet did Netflix I'd use the laptop less and less...

My wife loves taking pix of birds...  She's not a pro, but has a lot of fun..  She does all the cropping and such on her Dell Mini 9...  She loves that thing.  I can't get her to use the larger screen laptop for pix..

Comfortable Form Factor and mobility has been trumping power in our house, and I see that happening elsewhere..

PCs aren't going away, but I think the PC market isn't going to increase.....
The "mobile" market will increase..
Not sure if MS will be a player there tho.. I won't bet against them, but I can't see it with the products they've shown so far..

desiv
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 09:38:02 PM
Quote from: desiv;680427
Yes, but frequently people like having real keyboards because the things they do have been designed with keyboards in mind....

As more and more work/time goes into the touch interface, people will find themselves wanting a real keyboard less and less.
Yes, I suppose when literacy finally gasps its last and the alphabet is discarded as arcane devil-runes that distract us from the right and proper path of licensed media consumption, we won't need keyboards for much anymore...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: desiv on February 13, 2012, 09:57:16 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680428
Yes, I suppose when literacy finally gasps its last and the alphabet is discarded as arcane devil-runes that distract us from the right and proper path of licensed media consumption, we won't need keyboards for much anymore...

Yep..
:-)

Looking at twitter, texting, and the general decline of our language in society..
That will also play a significant role...

That and voice to text and gesture recognition...

desiv
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 10:20:37 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680428
Yes, I suppose when literacy finally gasps its last and the alphabet is discarded as arcane devil-runes that distract us from the right and proper path of licensed media consumption, we won't need keyboards for much anymore...

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes! I'm still not sure how I'm going to enter text from a touch interface (a picture of a keyboard? lame).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 10:28:06 PM
Quote from: desiv;680429
Looking at twitter, texting, and the general decline of our language in society..
That will also play a significant role...
If one were feeling uncharitable, one could phrase it as "in the future, dumb people will use tablets..."

Quote
That and voice to text and gesture recognition...
Uh, yeah. Yeah, that's really been a satisfactory substitute, doesn't bottleneck your text output by limiting it to your rate of coherent speech, and doesn't at all make you look like a goon for talking to an inanimate object...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 13, 2012, 10:34:22 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680435
...make you look like a goon for talking to an inanimate object...

The first time I saw someone with a Bluetooth phone interface, I thought they were schizophrenic. Walking along talking to someone that wasn't there...weird.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: desiv on February 13, 2012, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680435
Uh, yeah. Yeah, that's really been a satisfactory substitute, doesn't bottleneck your text output by limiting it to your rate of coherent speech, and doesn't at all make you look like a goon for talking to an inanimate object...

You're right..
Because it hasn't been done properly so far, it never will be...
Good point..  ;-)

desiv
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 10:55:23 PM
Quote from: desiv;680437
You're right..
Because it hasn't been done properly so far, it never will be...
Good point..  ;-)
I'll admit that the technology will doubtless get better - but my remaining two points I stand by: it imposes a bottleneck (rate of coherent speech) that's typically much more restrictive than the keyboard bottleneck (rate of precision typing) (unless you're a professional auctioneer or the Micro Machines guy,) and it's just a damn nuisance to the people around you (I guarantee you that if offices full of people jabbering at their workstations ever become commonplace, so will workplace shootings.) It may have specific applications, but as a general replacement it ain't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: desiv on February 13, 2012, 11:20:26 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680438
.. it imposes a bottleneck (rate of coherent speech) that's typically much more restrictive than the keyboard bottleneck (rate of precision typing) (unless you're a professional auctioneer or the Micro Machines guy,) and it's just a damn nuisance to the people around you

True, but I said initially that PCs will still have a place in business..
I'm talking non-business devices in general...
And for that audience, "text as quickly as they speak" would probably be more than fast enough...

Actually, that assumes someone doesn't come up with some type of verbal language shorthand, so to speak...
So people say partial phrases and the computers fill in the rest...

I'd laugh, but I can actually see that happening..

People walking around talking to their bluetooth headsets speaking truncated English stubs..

The whole text nightmare brought to speech...  



desiv
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 13, 2012, 11:35:58 PM
MS are not forcing the Metro UI on anything but tablets with Win8.  All signs indicate the traditional desktop is going absolutely nowhere and will be available on Win8 on the x86, it's just the ARM (WoA) Win8 that will be touch/Metro only.  There was an 8,000 word blog post from MS just a week or two ago stating this.  This has been stated over and over, but people keep ringing the doomsday bell for the desktop OS, and are blatantly wrong.  Unless MS change something last minute, you will have the option to use Win8 in the similar and familiar way you've used every Win release in the past, in a mouse and keyboard, point and click, icons and desktop format.  The RTM/consumer preview release comes out at the end of the month, so we'll see then, and I'm confident the Metro UI will be entirely optional on the x86 desktop.  Your Start Menu is being tweaked, but other than that I don't see much difference than W7 than W8 for desktop users, at least until ReFS hits the consumer level MS os's, if it does.

Anything else would be financial suicide for a company with such high profits in enterprise.  Enterprise sales is what made MS rich - consumer OS sales are nickel and dime compared to enterprise for them.  Even the nicest to use (iOS, IMHO) touch/tablet interfaces simply are not an effective substitute for the desktop for productivity, and that doesn't even factor in dinky screen sizes, lack of processing grunt, and lack of storage and traditional connectivity found in a desktop.

I'm no apologist for Apple or any other tablet maker, but they are quite usable appliances, stuff like the iPad.  Note the "appliance" denotation - you are not going to replace a traditional computer with a tablet anytime soon, which they can both do a lot of shared tasks, there's some things that tablets simply are not productive with, like heavy data entry, content creation, etc.  A tablet is a computer, but in a lot of ways it simply isn't - it's a consumption device first and foremost.

Many people slamming tablets and touch devices are viewing said machines as desktop competitors, and in my books they simply can't be compared.  Most guys derping and whining about touch keyboards and tablets in general being entirely unusable in any capacity have never even tried them, and are likely still the types to own 7 year old feature phones :)  They aren't for everyone, but even the naysayers would find them quite usable even after using them for an hour or two or they simply wouldn't have taken off like they have.  For emails, quick docs and such, tablets and their onscreen keyboards are more than usable, and I dare say pleasant to use if you understand what they can and cannot do.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 11:39:55 PM
Quote from: desiv;680440
True, but I said initially that PCs will still have a place in business..
I'm talking non-business devices in general...
I don't see those issues as any less problematic in a home environment. A bottleneck is a bottleneck, whether or not you have a financial incentive to minimize it; if someone gets a taste of decent keyboard usage (i.e. if they ever work a desk job) I just don't see them ever needing text-to-speech again. And the noise factor may be reduced in terms of absolute decibels in a home with 4-6 residents, but how would you like to have the entire composition/revision process of your daughter's email to her school friends drifting down the hall while you're trying to do something else? Would it be that much less annoying for being less loud?

Quote
Actually, that assumes someone doesn't come up with some type of verbal language shorthand, so to speak...
So people say partial phrases and the computers fill in the rest...

I'd laugh, but I can actually see that happening..

People walking around talking to their bluetooth headsets speaking truncated English stubs..

The whole text nightmare brought to speech...
Annoying jabber is annoying jabber, whether it's in full spoken English or truncated syllable combinations. I'm sure someone will try something like this eventually, but I doubt it will make any more of a lasting impact than text-to-speech in general. Both may save on manual labor, but both are frankly just too obnoxious to survive in society at large. It's like farting Morse code; sure, you can do it, but sooner or later it's going to wind up in mob violence.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 13, 2012, 11:49:28 PM
Quote from: Duce;680441
Many people slamming tablets and touch devices are viewing said machines as desktop competitors, and in my books they simply can't be compared.
Agreed; I see them more as laptop competitors - and they don't stack up there, either. Of course you've got your "well, it's for passive, bovine consumption of industrially-processed content!" proponents, but I've yet to have any trouble watching movies or reading books on my laptop, and I can do a damn sight more with it much more easily than any tablet.

Quote
and are likely still the types to own 7 year old feature phones :)
Proudly so. It places and receives phone calls, holds my small personal directory, and takes messages, and that's all I damn well need!

Quote
They aren't for everyone, but even the naysayers would find them quite usable even after using them for an hour or two or they simply wouldn't have taken off like they have.  For emails, quick docs and such, tablets and their onscreen keyboards are more than usable, and I dare say pleasant to use if you understand what they can and cannot do.
I never said they're unusable; as far as text-entry methods for cell phones, they're probably the best solution (certainly more pleasant than the button keyboards I've used.) What they aren't is as good as a real keyboard.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: desiv on February 13, 2012, 11:55:38 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680442
but how would you like to have the entire composition/revision process of your daughter's email to her school friends drifting down the hall

I grew up with lots of brothers / sisters..  That happened without voice-to-text.  ;-)

Reminds me too, when I saw my granddaughter entering her extra-credit homework via the Wiimote on our TV without any complaints or apparent issues, I realized that keyboards might not be the big selling point they used to be...

She had the option of using the laptop, but she was already on the Wii and it didn't bother her..

desiv
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: stefcep2 on February 13, 2012, 11:58:48 PM
Computer! Tea.  Earl Grey.  Hot.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 14, 2012, 12:30:00 AM
Quote from: desiv;680446
I grew up with lots of brothers / sisters..  That happened without voice-to-text.  ;-)
That's not an answer to the question... ;)

Quote
Reminds me too, when I saw my granddaughter entering her extra-credit homework via the Wiimote on our TV without any complaints or apparent issues, I realized that keyboards might not be the big selling point they used to be...

She had the option of using the laptop, but she was already on the Wii and it didn't bother her..
Yeah, something tells me that's not going to carry over to college and term papers, as cutesy as it is...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 14, 2012, 02:08:21 AM
Hi,

Lets face it, the tablets that are coming out are more for people like MAC users who just want to turn it on use it, get done with what they want and then shut it off. The hardest thing a MAC user does on his machine is find the on/off switch and basically that is all the tablets do, you turn them on do what you have to do, then turn them off, that is why the ipads are such a big hit with the MAC users.

Real computer users (like me) think the tablets are nothing but junk. I use one only to read books when the wife goes shopping, she reminds me of a typical MAC user, goes into the store to buy a gallon of milk, and it takes her only 3 hours, and yes it is an all day affair when she really decides to go grocery shopping, but we both have cell phones, so every now and then I can call her and say "How much longer?"

Yea for MAC users, with out them who would I complain about?

Linux users, nah I use Linux
Amiga users, nah they complain about too much already
Atari users, nah they all are dead or dead heads.

Oh well MAC users it is then

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 14, 2012, 02:11:17 AM
Quote from: stefcep2;680447
Computer! Tea.  Earl Grey.  Hot.


Hi,

@stefcep2,

I like Earl Grey Tea too!!

As a matter of fact I am having a cup right now.

What do you think of that.

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 14, 2012, 02:20:55 AM
Hi,

@Bloodline,

"But then I'm not sure the desktop has long left for this world"

Come on man, laptops are nothing but junk, you can buy the most expensive laptop gaming computer on the market today and in two years it will be more obsolete than the Amiga 4000. You will pay about $7000 for a good laptop, and in 2 years you will be lucky to give the thing away.

Desktops are the real meat of playing PC games, doing 3D rendering, and setting up all kinds of weird things. The desktops only keep getting more powerful every day. Sure my 6 core which I bought last year is now obsolete, but I am thinking of upgrading it to a new 8 core, which will slip right into my motherboard. If I need better graphics I just buy a new card, do that on a stinking laptop. Heck the Amiga will outlive that laptop. You need to get away from them MAC's and go out and build your own desktop, then once you see how much fun it is, you will never look at another laptop, tablet or MAC.

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 14, 2012, 02:28:35 AM
Quote from: Iggy;680433
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yes! I'm still not sure how I'm going to enter text from a touch interface (a picture of a keyboard? lame).


Hi,

@Iggy,

I heard that mirosoft is working on a tablet that you speak to, it then takes your words and prints them out on the screen. So pretty soon we will all be talking to our computers.

Computer (or name like Hal) bring up Fallout 3.

Go north,
go northwest

Hal go to hello operator

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 14, 2012, 03:11:50 AM
@Smerf

Desktops are currently irreplaceable for a significant minority of computer users.  That group is not growing and will at some point shrink.  There will likely be a significant number of desktops for a decade or two, but their ultimate demise is pretty much certain.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 14, 2012, 03:28:50 AM
Quote from: persia;680463
Desktops are currently irreplaceable for a significant minority of computer users.  That group is not growing and will at some point shrink.  There will likely be a significant number of desktops for a decade or two, but their ultimate demise is pretty much certain.
Based on what? The idea that current trends will continue on to infinity? That's the one thing trends never do.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: PastAmigaOwner on February 14, 2012, 03:31:28 AM
Quote from: smerf;680454
Hi,

Lets face it, the tablets that are coming out are more for people like MAC users who just want to turn it on use it, get done with what they want and then shut it off. The hardest thing a MAC user does on his machine is find the on/off switch and basically that is all the tablets do, you turn them on do what you have to do, then turn them off, that is why the ipads are such a big hit with the MAC users.

Real computer users (like me) think the tablets are nothing but junk. I use one only to read books when the wife goes shopping, she reminds me of a typical MAC user, goes into the store to buy a gallon of milk, and it takes her only 3 hours, and yes it is an all day affair when she really decides to go grocery shopping, but we both have cell phones, so every now and then I can call her and say "How much longer?"

Yea for MAC users, with out them who would I complain about?

Linux users, nah I use Linux
Amiga users, nah they complain about too much already
Atari users, nah they all are dead or dead heads.

Oh well MAC users it is then

smerf


LOL.  Yeah, cause all those millions of people out there who simply want a computer or electronic gadget to do what it was designed to do, get out of the way, and let them get their work done are freaks.  I like to use technology --- not fight with it.  That's why I liked Amigas back in the day and still have a place in my heart for them.  It's always enlightening to read a rant on "MACS" because the only people who spell it that way are the people who have never used one.  It's Mac....that's short for Macintosh.  MAC implies that it is an acronym, which it is not.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: CritAnime on February 14, 2012, 03:58:20 AM
Quote from: smerf;680454
Hi,

Lets face it, the tablets that are coming out are more for people like MAC users who just want to turn it on use it, get done with what they want and then shut it off. The hardest thing a MAC user does on his machine is find the on/off switch and basically that is all the tablets do, you turn them on do what you have to do, then turn them off, that is why the ipads are such a big hit with the MAC users.

Real computer users (like me) think the tablets are nothing but junk. I use one only to read books when the wife goes shopping, she reminds me of a typical MAC user, goes into the store to buy a gallon of milk, and it takes her only 3 hours, and yes it is an all day affair when she really decides to go grocery shopping, but we both have cell phones, so every now and then I can call her and say "How much longer?"

Yea for MAC users, with out them who would I complain about?

Linux users, nah I use Linux
Amiga users, nah they complain about too much already
Atari users, nah they all are dead or dead heads.

Oh well MAC users it is then

smerf


Thanks for that Smerf you made me chuckle. If we Macintosh users have to be the outlet for your little rants then so be it. I have broad enough shoulders for it ;)

Oh and I am a windows and linux user too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: huronking on February 14, 2012, 04:29:13 AM
Are the $7,000 laptops mil-spec?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: psxphill on February 14, 2012, 08:18:03 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;674367
People are mostly okay with Vista/7, I think, because despite the aesthetic tweaks it doesn't really screw around with what already works (too much.) But if Microsoft tries to force users into a different model, I think there's going to be a lot of backlash.

Some people hate change, I remember when XP came out and how unpopular it was with the 9x lovers. Then Vista was terrible and XP was great, etc etc. However change is innevitable, so if there is a backlash it will be a minority and in a couple of years nobody will care anyway as there will be a new version to hate.
 
We're so far away from windows 8 release to even begin to know what it will look like. But if they remove the classic start menu then at least the people who complained about it in 1995 will be happy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: CritAnime on February 14, 2012, 08:52:42 AM
I am sure there are vids of a release candidate for Windows 8 floating around YouTube. Looks to me they are trying to pull an apple and android and getting some continuity along the product lines. XBOX recently had yet another complete ui overhaul and now looks like windows phone and a potential 8.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2012, 10:17:30 AM
The dev preview of win 8 has been out for months, and the RTM/Consumer preview will be out on the 29th.

RTM means ready to manufacture, the version coming out on the 29th will be very similar to the end retail product.

Dev preview was freely downloadable, so will the RTM/consumer preview version.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: SysAdmin on February 14, 2012, 10:22:16 AM
Quote from: Duce;680480
The dev preview of win 8 has been out for months, and the RTM/Consumer preview will be out on the 29th.

RTM means ready to manufacture, the version coming out on the 29th will be very similar to the end retail product.

Dev preview was freely downloadable, so will the RTM/consumer preview version.

All versions of it have one common feature. They are extremely boring and irrelevant to the market. Just like Windows Phone 7.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2012, 10:37:27 AM
Valid point - Dev version was a waste of time for the most part.

The RTM version hopefully will be a bit more usable, and I am curious to see how much they have actually changed the desktop experience.

The Metro UI and any MS tablet specific interface holds no interest to me.  They are too late to the game to make a dent in the market with that side of things.  I doubt the actual Windows 8 desktop interface will differ much from Win 7, tbh - so needless to say I just ordered an OEM copy of Win7 64 bit for the new gaming rig I am building vs. waiting on Win 8.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: psxphill on February 14, 2012, 12:47:39 PM
Quote from: Duce;680480
The dev preview of win 8 has been out for months, and the RTM/Consumer preview will be out on the 29th.
 
RTM means ready to manufacture, the version coming out on the 29th will be very similar to the end retail product.
 
Dev preview was freely downloadable, so will the RTM/consumer preview version.

RTM means release to manufacture.
 
After the consumer preview there will be a release candidate and then release to manufacture. There is no current ship date for RTM but it's widely believe to be in 6 months.
 
Any minor annoyances could easily be changed in that time. Now is your chance to find them, when it's free to try & you might stand a chance of getting them changed.
Major changes would be harder to predict, although it's known that Windows Media Centre doesn't come in the consumer preview.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: SysAdmin on February 14, 2012, 01:54:12 PM
@psxphill

If there are minor issues or problems in the product silence is golden.

:)

Let them sell garbage, like they have done many times in the past. Let it fall flat on its face and fail just like Visa.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2012, 02:33:51 PM
Thanks for the correction on RTM, Phil - was 4 AM here and wasn't paying attention.  

Transition, while I loathed Vista (and still do), our definition on the word "failure" must differ.  140 million copies of Vista were sold between late 2006 and early 2008 alone.

I found Vista an unmitigated disaster, like most people - but by the numbers, it didn't do half as bad as people think it did.  But in overall scope of things, you know your product is loathed when you are forced to offer downgrades to XP on machines that came with Vista pre-installed, so in that case it was a real shambles.  Hell, I even "downgraded" a Toshiba laptop that came with Vista, back to XP.

I disliked Vista enough I almost made the switch permanently to Mac, in fact - but Win 7 is actually an excellent product.  It's no Amiga OS, but for your OS for the masses offerings, it's one of the best I've used, Win7.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: psxphill on February 14, 2012, 02:41:49 PM
Quote from: Duce;680498
you know your product is loathed when you are forced to offer downgrades to XP on machines that came with Vista pre-installed, so in that case it was a real shambles. Hell, I even "downgraded" a Toshiba laptop that came with Vista, back to XP.

It's no different to commodore allowing degrader to include kickstart 1.3 when the a500 plus came out.
 
Then again there are some people who preferred kickstart 1.2.
 
I ran vista x64 as it was the only choice if you wanted a 64 bit os. You could run XP64, but that was basically Windows Server & had less worse support than Vista.
 
Then I wouldn't touch XP if you paid me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: runequester on February 14, 2012, 03:21:23 PM
Quote from: psxphill;680499
It's no different to commodore allowing degrader to include kickstart 1.3 when the a500 plus came out.
 
Then again there are some people who preferred kickstart 1.2.
 
I ran vista x64 as it was the only choice if you wanted a 64 bit os. You could run XP64, but that was basically Windows Server & had less worse support than Vista.
 
Then I wouldn't touch XP if you paid me.


The only 64 bit windows option you mean.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 14, 2012, 04:21:38 PM
Quote from: psxphill;680475
Some people hate change, I remember when XP came out and how unpopular it was with the 9x lovers. Then Vista was terrible and XP was great, etc etc. However change is innevitable, so if there is a backlash it will be a minority and in a couple of years nobody will care anyway as there will be a new version to hate.
There is truth to this, but XP is something of an extraordinary item by these standards - Windows 95 didn't remain on sale for eight years after release, wasn't still getting active support/updates eleven years later, and didn't remain in major use until present day (estimates I've seen put XP at somewhere around or just below 7 for market share.)

95 was a step in the right direction, but it never got to become a really mature, stable OS; XP has, and consequently it's got a lot of users that aren't going to give it up until they absolutely have to. Tons of businesses still use fleets of XP workstations, many of which are definitely not 7/Vista machines, which means XP isn't even going to come close to going away until they're ready to do mass upgrades. (And in this economy? Good luck with that.)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 14, 2012, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: Duce;680498
Thanks for the correction on RTM, Phil - was 4 AM here and wasn't paying attention.  

Transition, while I loathed Vista (and still do), our definition on the word "failure" must differ.  140 million copies of Vista were sold between late 2006 and early 2008 alone.

I found Vista an unmitigated disaster, like most people - but by the numbers, it didn't do half as bad as people think it did.  But in overall scope of things, you know your product is loathed when you are forced to offer downgrades to XP on machines that came with Vista pre-installed, so in that case it was a real shambles.  Hell, I even "downgraded" a Toshiba laptop that came with Vista, back to XP.

I disliked Vista enough I almost made the switch permanently to Mac, in fact - but Win 7 is actually an excellent product.  It's no Amiga OS, but for your OS for the masses offerings, it's one of the best I've used, Win7.


From my perspective, there is very little difference between Vista and Win7 (except Win7 is slightly less secure). Aero, Dx10 and DX11 - virtually the same OS.
Personally, I think people's perspective is skewed. XP wasn't that great. Vista and Win7 both offer drivers for products that are no longer updated by the manufacturers.
I remember when people insisted on retaining Win98 instead of migrating to XP.

"I disliked..." - perfectly silly.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 14, 2012, 06:44:56 PM
Yeah, a flop up button that just basically lists your applications folder is kind of brain dead.  Even AmigaOS realised this decades ago.  The whole MS Windows desktop interface could use a serious redesign with 21st Century GUI principles in mind....
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 14, 2012, 07:10:30 PM
Quote from: persia;680507
Yeah, a flop up button that just basically lists your applications folder is kind of brain dead.  Even AmigaOS realised this decades ago.  The whole MS Windows desktop interface could use a serious redesign with 21st Century GUI principles in mind....
What, pray tell, are "21st century GUI principles?" Who codifies them? What are their merits?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2012, 08:30:31 PM
Iggy, if you don't see the differences between Vista and Win 7, we're on different planets.  It's like comparing Windows 3.x with Win 95/98.  I don't mean on a UI front - Windows in Windows that way, but in actual usability and functionality.  Vista was a train wreck compared to Win 7.

Massive differences in terms of day to day operational use, you'd have to be borderline daft to not notice how much better 7 runs than Vista ever did if you used either, lol.  Even on the exact same hardware base.  My old Vista machine used to lock up 3 times a day, on a good day.  This PC hasn't been rebooted this year thus far, Win 7.

Early Vista releases were barely functional in regards to stability and actual usability.  7 is a treat in comparison.  Even the Mac fanboys find it usable.

Yes, Iggy.  "I disliked" Vista ****ting the bed everytime I tried to do anything with it.  What's silly about not liking an operating system that works poorly?  "I disliked" indicates I no longer use Vista, and I didn't have much fun using it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 14, 2012, 08:46:00 PM
Quote from: Duce;680515
Iggy, if you don't see the differences between Vista and Win 7, we're on different planets.  It's like comparing Windows 3.x with Win 95/98.  I don't mean on a UI front - Windows in Windows that way, but in actual usability and functionality.  Vista was a train wreck compared to Win 7.

Massive differences in terms of day to day operational use, you'd have to be borderline daft to not notice how much better 7 runs than Vista ever did if you used either, lol.  Even on the exact same hardware base.  My old Vista machine used to lock up 3 times a day, on a good day.  This PC hasn't been rebooted this year thus far, Win 7.

Early Vista releases were barely functional in regards to stability and actual usability.  7 is a treat in comparison.  Even the Mac fanboys find it usable.

Yes, Iggy.  "I disliked" Vista ****ting the bed everytime I tried to do anything with it.  What's silly about not liking an operating system that works poorly?  "I disliked" indicates I no longer use Vista, and I didn't have much fun using it.

"Massive differences in terms of day to day operational use..."

Really?GuessI am daft because I don't see it.

Vista  doesn't work poorly for me. In fact, it doesn't work significantly different then my other system that runs Win7.

Stability  has never been an issue for me. Both run more reliably then XP ever did for me. Must be your hardware.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Fats on February 14, 2012, 08:55:14 PM
Quote from: Iggy;680517

[/I]Vista  doesn't work poorly for me. In fact, it doesn't work significantly different then my other system that runs Win7.


I only run Windows virtually here at home and that seems to work :)
I do know at my work they spend considerable effort to switch from XP2 SP2 to Vista but in the end backtracked and stayed at XP as they could never get the Vista environment problem free.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Fats on February 14, 2012, 08:58:30 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680438
typically much more restrictive than the keyboard bottleneck (rate of precision typing)


And then that is still not the fastest way to type. I do remember when live subtitliing was introduced on the Holland television. These people were trained to use a keyboard to input syllables and not single letters and also it was done by pressing combinations of keys at the same time.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Fats on February 14, 2012, 09:04:46 PM
Quote from: persia;680463
@Smerf
There will likely be a significant number of desktops for a decade or two, but their ultimate demise is pretty much certain.


Like the car would lead to the demise of the bike, the television to the demise of the radio etc.
I think they will coexists or it will become a hybrid of both.
Take a tablet placed on a foot and handled by a bluetooth mouse and keyboard with a more conventional WIMP interface. Would that be a desktop machine or a tablet ? I would say it is both.

greets,
Staf.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: SysAdmin on February 14, 2012, 09:06:09 PM
Vista is like a high maintenance girlfriend who is also very ugly, why bother?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 14, 2012, 09:09:49 PM
Quote from: Transition;680521
Vista is like a high maintenance girlfriend who is also very ugly, why bother?

What significant differences do you see in Win7?
Split screens?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 14, 2012, 09:12:45 PM
Quote from: Fats;680518
I only run Windows virtually here at home and that seems to work :)
I do know at my work they spend considerable effort to switch from XP2 SP2 to Vista but in the end backtracked and stayed at XP as they could never get the Vista environment problem free.

greets,
Staf.

Funny, I'm running it right now and I don't have any problems (at least none that also don't surface in Win7).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2012, 09:42:47 PM
My hardware is state of the art, and I've been a MCSE/MCSA for over 10 years.  I'm not clueless in the least with MS software.  It's not a hardware issue, isn't not a 3rd party of poorly cfg'ed software issue, lol.  I built machines and did IT support for many years.  It's a Microsoft issue in which Vista is crap, and it's well documented.  Vista was not a financial failure by any sane stretch - but it did earn MS their first financial Q loss in 23 years.  It's in the list of the 10 biggest tech failures of the last decade for a reason - it was widely seen as a train wreck.  Peoples standards are different, I guess - that's good by me, and certainly some people were happy with Vista.  Check how many Windows 7 downgrade to Vista programs vs. Windows Vista downgrade to Windows XP were offered, and how many people took the optional downgrade to Vista from 7 vs. Vista to XP :)  Vista was widely seen as a step back, it offered very little over XP, and the adoption rates were absolutely horrible compared to other OS releases, past or present for MSFT.

SP's have done a lot for Vista, but it's still garbage compared to 7.  And I never liked XP all that much to begin with, but Vista was a step back.
If you count UAC in the way it was implemented at first as a "security buff", wow - people turned that crap off the minute they could.  Was the most intrusive thing ever.  Unintuitive, bloatware "protect me from myself" crap.  Vista now is to MS in 3 short years what MS Bob took them 10 years to add to the "big mistake" list, lol.  

The fact the entire machine could be brought down by a driver crash means nothing with Vista?  I'm a big gamer - Vista was a train wreck for us guys with that.  Gfx driver crashes, the machine needs a hard reboot.
Was fixed in 7, you will note.  Having any driver take a machine out of commission rather than have a recoverable driver system is bad, bad, bad.
XP was under a similar stack regarding drivers, but never ever had half the issues that Vista did.

Install Vista on a PC.  Test drive it.  Hell, Install XP after that.  Vista will be dog slow compared to XP even, where as 7 if anything is faster on equal HW than XP.

Install 7 on the same PC a week later.  You will find Vista to be garbage in comparison if you use the machine for anything other than puttering around with email.  For people like that, it could be Win 98 and they wouldn't know the difference.  If you are the type that simply putzes around on PC's for email and not much more, anything will work.  It doesn't for me, I'm hooped without stability - and yes, I know the glaring irony in using the term "stability" in conjunction with the term "Microsoft Windows"  :)

Comic I always liked, and I'm no Mac fanboy by any means:

http://www.joyoftech.com/joyoftech/joyarchives/915.html
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 15, 2012, 02:54:20 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;680466
Thanks for that Smerf you made me chuckle. If we Macintosh users have to be the outlet for your little rants then so be it. I have broad enough shoulders for it ;)

Oh and I am a windows and linux user too.


Hi,

@CritAnime and all "Mac" users

Happy I made someone happy, anywhoo, today in the shop where I work, one of the guys brought in an duo core iMac, wanted to know if anyone could fix it, now you are looking at a bunch of high tech idiots that repair some really wild electronic gear, but we all use PC's, either laptops or desktops, well he asked me first I looked at this white smooth modern day looking object and said Hmmmm an iMac, well the first thing we have to do is look for the on / off switch, well it wasn't on the classy looking keyboard, it wasn't on the front of this ultra smooth classy shiny monitor with a slot in the right hand side, so I took a wild guess and looked in the back, viola an on / off button on the back left hand side. My sweaty hands reached back there and pushed it and the screen lit up, we waited 10 seconds, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, 60 seconds (getting boring isn't it) 2 minutes, then a folder with a question mark came to the center of the screen. I looked at the guy who brought it in, and said is that it, he answered that's all it does. Not knowing what to do next since I own a PC, I said do you have the operators manual, he said yep, here it is.  The op manual said to press certain keys if this folder kept popping up, well I pressed those keys at least 25 times and the same folder with a question mark kept popping up. He asked me well, I looked at him and said "It's Broke".

We then contacted our best PC tech in the house, just before quitting time he came down and looked at it.  We all sat anxiously by, since this was the first iMac we have ever seen, and touched. He looked at it with those eyes of wisdom, turned it on after finding the on / off switch, watched that deadly folder. He then asked for the book, looked at it and said what you have here son is a real friggin hardware problem. I suggest that you call this number in the back of the book and ask for Apple tech support, tonight, and tomorrow I will take a closer look at it, sure is a beauty, awful sexy looking machine, something like my wife, awful good lookin but don't work.

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 15, 2012, 03:08:18 AM
Hi,

@Duce,

I use Windows Vista on my latest greatest PC game machine, does all right now, but the trouble with micrsoft is if you do a lot of updating to your equipment you get the keycode not valid syndrome, where you have to call some person in India, who talks with a weird accent (probably he thinks the same) and you try to tell him it is the same computer, only updated, this happended when I went from a quad core to a six core cpu, when I went from 4 gig to 8 gig of memory, when I changed hard drives from 250 gig to 1 terrabyte and when I changed my graphics card.

I don't think Microsoft expects you to update your computer, then when you do you have to revalidate, and after the third time you have to explain to those idiots, that it is the same computer only updated.

By the way after the third time,they want you to purchase a new keycode.

Thats why I am holding off from updating my other quad core computer, it is getting quite old (4 years) but really don't feel like going through the hassle with windows 7.

Why can't the game companies make games for Linux, this is the only reason I still use windows.

Linux the best OS after Amiga OS.  

I don't need no stinkin Mac

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: smerf on February 15, 2012, 03:13:15 AM
Hi,

@Transition,

[Vista is like a high maintenance girlfriend who is also very ugly, why bother?]

Well just like a high maintenance girlfriend, some people just can't afford to purchase another copy of Windows, and are forced to use what they have.

but just like a high maintenance girlfriend,

You can turn her upside down, step on her nose, and turn her into a water fountain.

smerf
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 15, 2012, 08:05:26 AM
Apple hasn't had a white plastic/polycarbonate iMac since August 2007, and they weren't particularly hard to work on.  All iMac's since then have been the aluminum (silver) bodied ones.  While said machine may have looked cutting edge, it's a 5 year old machine.  The Core2 plastic cased models were known for some display issues and banding on certain models, which was fixed with a software update.  I do fully agree though, none of the more modern iMac's are much fun to work on, especially compared to something like a simple tower PC case.

As for Windows key re-activation, I have had the same go around with MS in regards to switching licenses.  They have got better over the years, but it's still a complete PITA.  I remember doing it with a Vista license a few years ago and being stuck on hold for the better part of an hour, but recently I did it with a copy of Win 7 and was done with it within 5 minutes.

The fact they have outsourced everything like that to India and such is the biggest pain, as you said, Smerf.  But I guess that's happened at a lot of places providing support - Dell was the worst I ever encountered years back for that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: stefcep2 on February 15, 2012, 08:08:54 AM
@Duce.

Clearly Vista hasn't worked for you.

But I'm curious as to which Vista beast you used.  I can't prove it but my experience with a massive number of PC's ie the one desktop and two laptops I have at home suggest that Vista Business is leaner, meaner, faster and more stable than Vista Home premium.  It lacks Mediacentre so I'm sure this has something to do with it.

 I dual boot the desktop a 2007 vintage Athlon X2 5000 with 2 gb RAM with Vista Business and XP and the performance difference is marginal.  My son has a core2duo laptop with 2 gig ram again about 4 years old.

 I set up a dual boot with XP Pro and Vista Business for him, but again, XP' s was marginally quicker.  We took XP off it since there was no compelling reason to keep it.

The one noticeable thing is that Vista seems to thrash the hard drive more than XP and Win 7.  But IMO it is the best looking OS Microsoft has ever produced.

One thing I credit Vista for is that it has changed in a fundamental the way people use their PC:  most users (not so much fanatics or geeks) I see no longer bother with launching and finding items pinned to the start menu, or opening window after window but rather Start-->Search-->type a few letters, and indexing does the rest.  This is quite a paradigm shift and is not lost on Microsoft, where it intends to have this as one of two ways to navigate Win 8.  You don't need to know the file system layout, just some of the name of what you want, and there it is.  Every bit as big an innovation as the Start button was in 1995.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 15, 2012, 10:04:16 AM
Vista worked, and worked well enough to use on my daily driver PC's after SP's arrived.  Entirely usable for the most part, but in comparison to 7 still a complete pig to me.  If all a person had ever used was Vista, one would be none the wiser.  I've installed Vista on a machine, run it for a week, then thrown 7 on the same machine and the difference to me is incredible, even with older hardware.  Boot times with 7 are significantly better, among other things.  7 is actually quite pleasant to use on a system with a SSD - my gaming PC boots up as fast as my SAM 440, and that says a lot.

Used all variations of it, 32 and 64 bit.  Tbh, not sure I ever used the search functions of Vista or 7 much.  I'm a bit particular about how I do things I suppose, and fell into habits 20 years ago I still use today, heh.  I use the Start Menu and quick launch functions almost exclusively when mousing around, but for the most part I just have programs bound to G keys on my systems.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: persia on February 15, 2012, 01:32:05 PM
MS Windows is ok if you like doing everything in the GUI, but if you really want to do something in a terminal/command line you need a Mac or Linux/BSD box.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 15, 2012, 02:23:47 PM
Quote from: persia;680585
...if you really want to do something in a terminal/command line you need a Mac...

:roflmao:

Now that IS funny!

Windows grows out of a CLI based OS (MS-DOS), but Apple Mac's (which have always been GUI based) are the choice for command lines.

BTW - Glad to see a few other Vista users here. Win7 has completely underwhelmed me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 15, 2012, 03:38:08 PM
Quote from: Iggy;680592
:roflmao:

Now that IS funny!

Windows grows out of a CLI based OS (MS-DOS), but Apple Mac's (which have always been GUI based) are the choice for command lines.

BTW - Glad to see a few other Vista users here. Win7 has completely underwhelmed me.


Mac is BSD.  Why is that funny?  The only work I can't get done on my mac is XNA development.  Windows has a similar issue with iphone development.  I just wish it was as easy to get hackintoshes running as it is to dual boot windows on a mac.  My win 7 install has been the best windows experience I have had to date.  Vista was mediocre, the 64 bit version was buggy, and my machine was quickly reverted to XP.

BUT, like i tell all my friends, upgrading for the sake of upgrading is stupid.  If the system as it stands does exactly what you need, then that is the right system.

If an OS3.x machine(or system 7...I liked me some macOS) ran java, python, eclipse, visual studio, and xcode and did it in "realtime" I would need nothing else.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 15, 2012, 05:45:59 PM
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;680610
Mac is BSD.  Why is that funny?

Because Mac IS BSD NOW.
Its kind of like jacking up a car and driving a new one underneath it.
Exactly what about Macs has any relationship to its origins?
Three ISAs, multiple radical OS changes, definitely your Grandfathers axe.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 15, 2012, 07:17:05 PM
Quote from: Iggy;680622
Because Mac IS BSD NOW.
Its kind of like jacking up a car and driving a new one underneath it.
Exactly what about Macs has any relationship to its origins?
Three ISAs, multiple radical OS changes, definitely your Grandfathers axe.


Well, I'd say that "it just works" is still pretty solid.

They codified their end user experience and continued to deliver that solidly across multiple OS revisions, hardware revisions, and staff "revisions".  I sure wish Amiga had figured that one out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 15, 2012, 08:11:02 PM
OSX has Windows beat in the command line front, hands down.  If you like to tinker around in shell/terminal, modern Windows versions aren't the best bet.

They are now merely MS-DOS emulations when you enter that CMD command.

Then again, any terminal junkie is already running a *nix or BSD variant and doesn't give 2 ****s about Windows or OS X.  :)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: stefcep2 on February 15, 2012, 11:24:20 PM
Quote from: Duce;680572
Vista worked, and worked well enough to use on my daily driver PC's after SP's arrived.  Entirely usable for the most part, but in comparison to 7 still a complete pig to me.  If all a person had ever used was Vista, one would be none the wiser.  


I've got Win 7 on my work laptop, a HP C2D with 4 gig (but its only 32 bit).  Yes it boots faster than Vista Business, shut down is about the same, by about 5-7 seconds and in general use, Win 7 feels "snappier".  Stability is the same.  But here's the thingOver time Vista has actually got FASTER and more stable, but I have Vista Business fully up to date, and applied some of the registry tweeks, and this has sped it up significantly.  

I think on release, Vista was half baked with its driver support, and  many people that bought it had gigs of crapware installed like my HP laptop did.  So when people got their PC, Vista would rummage through the hard drive building its index.  Now if you had just come from XP, the constant indexing would have made the machine seem unusable.  MS should have just told people turn on your Vista PC, leave it alone for a day or two, and then it will be much faster.  Yep, I know, pretty crappy thing to say, but better than people downgrading to XP without giving Vista a chance.
Quote

Used all variations of it, 32 and 64 bit.  Tbh, not sure I ever used the search functions of Vista or 7 much.  I'm a bit particular about how I do things I suppose, and fell into habits 20 years ago I still use today, heh.  I use the Start Menu and quick launch functions almost exclusively when mousing around, but for the most part I just have programs bound to G keys on my systems.


I don't know and no longer want to know where everything is kept, so I too now just use the search.  Most of the people I work with are Gen Y and they all work with the search.  Its fast, and I don't have to think "Now where is xyz?"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 15, 2012, 11:40:04 PM
Quote from: stefcep2;680642
I don't know and no longer want to know where everything is kept, so I too now just use the search.  Most of the people I work with are Gen Y and they all work with the search.  Its fast, and I don't have to think "Now where is xyz?"
Lately I've been using this cool new thing they just invented in the 1970s called a hierarchical file system, it's kind of like searching to find what I want, only there's no delays while the search happens and I can organize everything to my exact preference instead of having to rely on the computer to do it for me!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: psxphill on February 15, 2012, 11:52:57 PM
Quote from: Duce;680632
They are now merely MS-DOS emulations when you enter that CMD command.
 
Then again, any terminal junkie is already running a *nix or BSD variant and doesn't give 2 ****s about Windows or OS X. :)

CMD is nothing like DOS and Power Shell is the new hotness, I also use jpsoft's TCCLE as I've been using their shells for years.
 
Or you could slum it and use one of the *ix shells on Windows.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: stefcep2 on February 16, 2012, 12:05:58 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680643
Lately I've been using this cool new thing they just invented in the 1970s called a hierarchical file system, it's kind of like searching to find what I want, only there's no delays while the search happens and I can organize everything to my exact preference instead of having to rely on the computer to do it for me!


But thats the point: a user doesn't have to know anything about the file system to use it just as effectively

Also, there are files eg system files/preferences that you can't organise wherever you want but need to delve deep to find, sometimes several folders deep. Sometimes you know what it does, what might be its name, but not sure where it lives.  In that situation, I bet an indexed Vista/Win7 will get me there faster than you will clicking through folder, guessing where the file might be.

For your own files, sure you can be anal and organise every file into specific folders, and you can have short cuts and pin them here and there, like I once did, but now i can't be arsed.

Indexed search is an incredibly useful too, the most useful thing that happened going from XP to Vista IMO.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Duce on February 16, 2012, 12:07:06 AM
I realize CMD is no replacement for DOS, but it's what you get for command line out of the box these days on modern Windows.  DOS was phased out some time ago in Windows, and you have a valid point with the fact there's a lot of good add ons to get some of that back, but none come packaged with Windows, where OS X has a much more robust command line system by default without downloading addons.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: commodorejohn on February 16, 2012, 12:21:22 AM
Quote from: stefcep2;680648
Also, there are files eg system files/preferences that you can't organise wherever you want but need to delve deep to find, sometimes several folders deep. Sometimes you know what it does, what might be its name, but not sure where it lives.  In that situation, I bet an indexed Vista/Win7 will get me there faster than you will clicking through folder, guessing where the file might be.
I expect not; the important arcane-wizardry files are really not that hard to find in Windows. System components in (Windows directory)\system32, application preferences in Documents and Settings\(user | All Users)\Application Data, etc. The few that are really hidden deep are corner-cases; I'd imagine the time saved on finding everything else in a well-organized system more than pays off against waiting for the search routine to do heuristically what you could have done intelligently from the get-go.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: stefcep2 on February 16, 2012, 02:06:29 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;680651
I expect not; the important arcane-wizardry files are really not that hard to find in Windows. System components in (Windows directory)\system32, application preferences in Documents and Settings\(user | All Users)\Application Data, etc. The few that are really hidden deep are corner-cases; I'd imagine the time saved on finding everything else in a well-organized system more than pays off against waiting for the search routine to do heuristically what you could have done intelligently from the get-go.

What wait?   A few hours after installation letting the OS index everything, and the odd hard drive light blink to keep the index up to date is all there is and everything is indexed. finding things after that is virtually instantaneous. And I don't need to know a damn about where any of it is kept, ever.  Why should I remember where defrag is, or where computer management lives, when I can just type up defra in search and its there instantly?

Sure i'll save my stuff in documents/photos/videos/music, but these folders get too big and so I'll go and create subfolders for letters, bill receipts, pdf's, but then I might want to keep documents from a particular source eg bank statements, school newsletters, government taxes, and then it would be helpful to separate then into years...but accessing them later?  Why rummage through folder after folder, or keep a mess of shortcuts, or pinned files when all I need to do is Start-->search?

Anyway thats my view if you're happy with the old way, more power to you.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 16, 2012, 03:04:43 AM
Fascinating how a thread that was introduced to denigrate Microsoft has provoked so many defensive responses.

I was using OS9 on 68000 based computers before Linux existed.
Minix was around, BSD existed on college servers, and Microsoft was still pushing Xenix.
But the Mac crowd was using a graphic based OS with no command line (on a black and white display) and X86 machines were running a criude CLI based OS that was basically a copy of CPM.

So now, two decades later, you young punks think you can educate ME?

You're just using systems that have finally caught up to ideas I was advocating in the 80's.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: TheBilgeRat on February 16, 2012, 06:36:33 AM
Quote from: Iggy;680658
Fascinating how a thread that was introduced to denigrate Microsoft has provoked so many defensive responses.

I was using OS9 on 68000 based computers before Linux existed.
Minix was around, BSD existed on college servers, and Microsoft was still pushing Xenix.
But the Mac crowd was using a graphic based OS with no command line (on a black and white display) and X86 machines were running a criude CLI based OS that was basically a copy of CPM.

So now, two decades later, you young punks think you can educate ME?

You're just using systems that have finally caught up to ideas I was advocating in the 80's.


You tell 'em! :lol:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Dumbest And Smartest Moves Of 2011
Post by: Iggy on February 16, 2012, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: TheBilgeRat;680668
You tell 'em! :lol:

In a way, all older Amiga users ought to feel the same way.

Using a colorful multi-media, multi-tasking computer before anyone else caught on?

Why be apologetic? Everything else looks like our machines now.