Amiga emulators: is it worth it?

[AmiKit]

The Amiga emulation that is provided by WinUAE is 100% for most of the Amiga games out there (and 99% for the rest).

I think your inquiry is too general. Either post a detailed problem you are experiencing with certain game or follow some guides first:

http://www.pcguru.plus.com/uae_faq.html
http://www.tweakguides.com/Amiga_1.html
http://ale.emuunlim.com/guides/guides.shtml

[AmiKit]

The problem with emulating a computer is that there will always be latency. Usually this is most visible in sound.

I don't think so. Even if there was any latency I doubt any human can notice it.

You'll never get the complete Amiga look and feel via emulation, no matter how good UAE is.

Well, a simple Turing test denies your statement. http://www.amigaforever.com/tutorials/goodorbad/

[AmiKit]

BTW talking about some emulation, I assume AmiKit and AmigaForever environments claim to perform better? Or am I just talking nonsense?

Actually both AmiKit and Amiga Forever use WinUAE as its own emulation engine. More info here: http://amikit.amiga.sk/faq.htm

[AmiKit]

That article is subjective...

lol, a human being IS subjective! And the Turing test, in this case, is about human perceiving. You did not get it.

[AmiKit]

If you go by PC standard hardware, it is impossible to do the cycle-exact emulation of the Amiga.

Hmmm, strange because I saw Cycle-Exact option in WinUAE/Chipset settings. In addition there's "100% accurate" sound emulation option in sound settings.

[AmiKit]

No, the URL you gave is stating much more than just someone being subjective.

I was referring to the Turing test paragraph only ("Amiga Feeling Can't Be Emulated"). It cannot be linked directly. Sorry.

[AmiKit]

I can also put many options in software that work partially or not at all. I don't follow blindly. You are not even giving experimental results what to speak of deductive logic of whether it's do-able on a particular hardware.

Experimental results? Lol, you still don't get it, do you? It is the subjective human perceiving that counts here. Not the small difference in exact numbers, voltage or whatever.

Look, I understand that from objective point of view the emulated Amiga on PC hardware is not Amiga. But my favourite games behave just like they behaved on my real Amiga. At least my impression is the same. So from MY point of view it IS Amiga. I really don't care about the PC HW that is under the desk, I don't care about cycle-exact issue or whatever. I don't need to do experimental HW research in order to increase my subjective impression of the game, etc. That's it.

--Jan

[AmiKit]

@spirantho

Are we still talking about A500 games?
Even WHDLoad on a real machine (A1200 and better) can be considered as emulation when running A500 games - in strict point of view.

And for myself the combined latency of the sound, the graphics, and the input maybe be almost imperceptible, but I still feel the difference, and that's what's most important to me.

If those things are imperceptible, what makes the difference in your feelings? Just the knowledge that it is the emulation? If so, that is exactly what Turing test eliminated.

--Jan

[AmiKit]

@DiskDoctor

Maybe the performance of the user? With AmiKit you can eg. unpack archives with simple drag&drop. This saves much time compared to the bare system which doesn't even have any unpacker program installed...

[AmiKit]

@amigaksi

...humans can perceive differences where you may not.

Exactly...   wait a sec, does it mean I am not a human? ;-) Just kidding.

Some people I know think the lossy MP3 is same as 16-bit lossless linear audio CDs.

You mix the knowledge and the experience. If they cannot differentiate between lossy MP3 and WAV, in their world lossy MP3 is OK. No need for "objective" studies.

You are studying a small sample only.

Yep, but it doesn't mean it's bad. Seems we're getting to the core finally. While you're talking about nomothetic approach I am talking about ipsative or individual approach. Now the question is what approach is more suitable when talking about emulated games. I think that with regards to the impression of the game the INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE is more important than subtle differences in video, sound or timing (if there are any, of course).

You can tell certain differences if you are really addicted to a game and know its nuances rather than if you just played it once or twice or just saw it. Audio and Video is not the only thing of our experience, subtle timings also is in our experience which you seem to be throwing under the "subjective" catagory. And even for a buffered 60Hz display, if you don't properly sync up the frames to the same VBlanking used by Amiga, you can notice the 1/60 difference. And for audio, it's much higher frequency that one can notice.

If there really is any 1/60 difference then the fact whether the human can notice or not depends on the intensity of the original value. This is called Weber-Fechner law. Needles to say that such a 1/60 difference, even though noticed, won't affect your game experience at all. It objectively affects your measurement device only.

I can write software where even YOU will notice a difference.

That would be interesting.

[AmiKit]

@amigaksi

There is a difference so let's not put that into doubt as we only need to show one example to prove they are different. And we already know the latency is purposely there.

What is this discussion about actually? While you are still pointing at the subtle and objective difference between real and emulated game, I am saying it doesn't matter.

Let's say I admit that the difference exists. But from the subjective point of view the result is the same, because:
1)  the difference is subtle
2a) the difference is hardly noticeable by human perceiving
2b) even though the difference is noticeable, it won't affect your game experience or a whole enjoyment of the game because of what is mentioned in 1).

Yes, you can train people to identify those subtle differences but why would you do that? Just to be a winner who can say: "I told you there was a difference!". And I would say: "I don't care, let me play."
What I am trying to say here is that human perceiving works differently compared to precise computers. For example Gestalt says that:

"...the operational principle of the brain is holistic, parallel, and analog, with self-organizing tendencies; or, that the whole is different from the sum of its parts. The Gestalt effect refers to the form-forming capability of our senses, particularly with respect to the visual recognition of figures and whole forms instead of just a collection of simple lines and curves."

Sorry but in such a context the subtle differences between real and emulated game are simply irrelevant.

I can write software where even YOU will notice a difference.

That would be interesting.

Not "would be". It is already existing.

Link please?

[AmiKit]

@amigaksi

amigaksi said:
I was pointing out that differences exist even in cases where YOU did not perceive them.

And I accepted what you said if you did not notice. The point is somewhere else but I won't explain it to you ONCE AGAIN.

amigaksi said:
Major differences also exist depending on target hardware used by emulator and it's spec.

Sorry, but your knowledge about how emulation works was put in question here in this thread...

amigaksi said:
No, the difference is "subtle" for YOU that's why you don't notice it unless YOU are trained.

Seems you still don't get it.

amigaksi said:
I can write software where even YOU will notice a difference.

AmiKit said:
That would be interesting

amigaksi said:
Not "would be". It is already existing.

AmiKit said:
Link please?

amigaksi said:
I can post source code or an ADF to a sample code I wrote.

Yes, please. Or should I ask you for it for the fourth time?

amigaksi said:
No, I already win even if I accept you don't notice any differences since it's better to have real Amiga that works 100% for everyone than an emulator which is good for some games for some people.

Sure :roll:

AmiKit said:
"...the operational principle of the brain is holistic, parallel, and analog, with self-organizing tendencies; or, that the whole is different from the sum of its parts. The Gestalt effect refers to the form-forming capability of our senses, particularly with respect to the visual recognition of figures and whole forms instead of just a collection of simple lines and curves."

Sorry but in such a context the subtle differences between real and emulated game are simply irrelevant.

amigaksi said:
That's true but it actually supports me. Emulator is not an Amiga as a whole although some parts (like the static visual output) look the same.

You did not understand it at all.

Well, I will refrain from further discussion with you as it seems it's useless. Your capacity or will to hear and understand is too low. Bye.