potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[Louis Dias]

the_leander wrote:
And next week I'll be giving a lecture on how to build a BoXer system using only lolypop sticks, sticky backed plastic, and the fluff I found in my belly button this morning.

Face facts, AOS on a gamecube isn't going to happen, the technical challenge alone precludes it, let alone the legal strife anyone without Nintendo's permission would find themselves in.

The hardware although clever is designed for one thing only: Games. Running a full blown OS, even with AOS's legendary scaling would be an uncomfortable experience at best.. Then theres all the extra kit, it isn't just the game cube, is the expansion packs, its the keyboards, adapters and everything else, hell outside of a live CD your chances of actually having a usable OS that lasts more then a few days (because solid state memory cards are sooo reliable) are slim to non, unless you plan to boot off a Nas, by which time you've probably paid for a micro A1 with all the trimmings and then some!

Its a nice idea don't get me wrong, but thats all it will ever be, an idea.

Yes, that is my point!  It's a great idea!  Look what Nintendo did with the GBA Player for the GameCube.  It has a boot disk that goes instantly to the GBA player via the high speed parralel port.  Just picture an SX-1 type addon with a hard drive and with OS 4 booting and some USB ports and maybe a DVDdrive (or buy the Panasonic Q instead of a Gamecube to get a Gamecube that plays DVDs)...and the GBA player is cheaper than an actual GBA...

[Louis Dias]

a quote from the Metrowerks site for Codewarrior:

CodeWarrior Benefits

• NINTENDO GAMECUBE OS was built with CodeWarrior tools, so your code will integrate seamlessly, saving valuable development time
• The CodeWarrior C/C++ compiler generates highly-optimized code for Gekko* and intrinsic    Gekko paired single vectors.
• The CodeWarrior assembler provides Gekko-specific assembler instructions.
• CodeWarrior Analysis Tools** are available for the NINTENDO GAMECUBE platform, so you can find performance bottlenecks and ensure adequate test suite coverage during the QA process.
• Fast build times provide efficiency during code modification

gee a gamemachine with an OS...who whould have thunk it...and no, there is no ROM inside the gamecube, it all comes from the disc...don't forget - OS != gui, an OS gives you access to hardware...put an Amiga GUI on it and abstaction layer for AHI sound and RTG graphics and boom - Amiga.  A harddrive + usb addon through its Parallel port and what do you have?

[Waccoon]

@lou_dias:

If you think it's so damned easy to run an OS on GameCube, do it yourself.

OS4 is nowhere near as modern and portable as Linux.

[Wain]

gee a gamemachine with an OS...who whould have thunk it...and no, there is no ROM inside the gamecube, it all comes from the disc...don't forget - OS != gui, an OS gives you access to hardware...put an Amiga GUI on it and abstaction layer for AHI sound and RTG graphics and boom - Amiga.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

you really should do some reading up on what an OS is.

By your logic I should be able to run KDE on DOS, or at least port it with minimal effort, because all the OS is is an interface to the hardware.

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:

The majority of the internet is still 10-based.  Get up off the floor and stop laughing.

No it isn't.

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:
Yes, that is my point!  It's a great idea!  Look what Nintendo did with the GBA Player for the GameCube.  It has a boot disk that goes instantly to the GBA player via the high speed parralel port.  Just picture an SX-1 type addon with a hard drive and with OS 4 booting and some USB ports and maybe a DVDdrive (or buy the Panasonic Q instead of a Gamecube to get a Gamecube that plays DVDs)...and the GBA player is cheaper than an actual GBA...

What does that prove?

Ok, so the boot disk enables the audio/video passthrough via the parallel port.  There is no emulation or processing going on in the GC besides the video overlays, menus, etc.  The GB Player has the complete GBA hardware inside minus the controls, screen, and audio output.

And, the GB Player was originally about the same price as the GBA.  I think I paid $89 for mine when it first came out.  Of course, since the GC isn't selling, they've cut the price on it and the accessories quite a bit.

But, then again, what does that prove?

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:
you are kidding right?  You don't think an international multi billion dollar company with offices in Seatle doesn't have technichians who speak English?  I mean what is all GC software just Japanese imports from Japanese programmers?

In Nintendo's case, pretty much.  Besides the EA and Midway games, there isn't much that's US made for the GC.

[Ilwrath]

Alright.  I'm sick of arguing in your theoretical netherland...  

You think the GC is hot stuff.  I say it's not.  Here's my evidence:

According to Nintendo's own pages here the Nintendo is capable of 1125 MDhrystone 2.1.  My P2-400mhz doorstop pulls 841.  These are hardly impressive numbers.  For comparison, my current desktop (P4HT 3.0ghz) pulls 5133 in single-thread mode (and averages 4200 each in SMP-2 mode, as HyperThread isn't symetrical).

what's proprietary about an IBM G3 750 Gekko and an ATI Flipper? Those are the only 2 chips inside the gamecube and that's why it only costs Nintendo $107 to produce one.

Uhm.... The Flipper and it's interconnect protocol?  The very thing you are stating here is why the GameCube makes a horrible general-use computer.  The processor isn't thrilling, and the Flipper is an all-in-one unit that only performs well with high optimizations that you aren't likely to find in a general-use OS.

LOL. I certainly won't be the one that does it because I'm not that techincal with Linux at all. However, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't stand a chance.

Ok, so you bought all the stuff to run Linux on a GameCube because you DON'T want to run Linux on it?  This makes as much sense as the rest of your arguments.  And just saying you're "willing to bet it wouldn't stand a chance" is meaningless words.  

Show some real world performance numbers.  I did.  1125 theoretical MDhry 2.1 to 841 real-world hardly looks like a blowout, especially when you consider the vast difference between a GameCube and a PowerPC reference board!  

I say the GameCube is a cool toy.  But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer.  I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim.  Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.

The majority of the internet is still 10-based. Get up off the floor and stop laughing.

I had, until I read that!   :lol: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[adolescent]

Ilwrath wrote:

I say the GameCube is a cool toy.  But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer.  I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim.  Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.

You don't expect anything more from a Nintendo fanboy do you?  Come on, the GC can process an infinate loop in 4 seconds, has the power of 1,000 Cray's, and can play Mario Kart.  Of course it can run AOS4.   :-)

[Louis Dias]

adolescent wrote:

Ilwrath wrote:

I say the GameCube is a cool toy.  But one not really worthwhile pursuing use as a general computer.  I've put forward serious real-world performance numbers to back up my claim.  Until you are willing to show something beyond nebulus, baseless speculations for your side of the argument, I rest my case.

You don't expect anything more from a Nintendo fanboy do you?  Come on, the GC can process an infinate loop in 4 seconds, has the power of 1,000 Cray's, and can play Mario Kart.  Of course it can run AOS4.   :-)

Now you are getting a bit personal.  That is immature considering you know nothing about me.  If I do qualify as a Nintendo "fanboy" as you put it, it is because Nintendo has won me over as a high quality and reputable producer of both consoles and very entertaining software.  I was not an NES fan in my youth and resented it for displacing the Atari 2600/5200/7800 as king of that generation.  I was a Sega Genesis(Masterdrive) fan over the SNES.  Yes I did not like Nintendo at all.  The N64 was impressive but not enough for me to go and buy one (I liked the Sega Saturn but we know where that went).  I have an N64 emulator now on my PC.  The Gamecube however has completely won me over as the highest quality system of the big 3...and the company itself has won me over.  Looking back, my reasons for resenting the company were childish (I'm in my 30's now) and just plain prejudiced at times.  I've grown up.  You should too.

Every critisism I've heard about the GC not being a good platform for an OS can also be said of any pre-OS 4 Amiga.  In the end, the GC is a tightly intergrated - hence efficient - system extactly like your beloved classic Amigas.  Citisize it and you critisize your own past.

Face the facts:  the Amiga was a game machine that Commodore decided to give an OS to...  Now that I think about it...the Amiga is dead and so is this thread as far as I'm concerned.

I put forward a creative idea and in typical Amiga fanboy fashion, it gets beaten up to death.  None of you can agree as to what an Amiga is or what it should be or what cpu it should have or much anything else and that's why you still have nothing but a failed past.  Even OS4 and the A1 is an extreme niche market.  Exactly how many pre-orders were there?  Any product on the Gamecube that appeals to only 1% of it's customers is still 188,000 units in sales.  Nintendo is second only to Electronic Arts is producing video games across all markets for the fiscal year ending in March 2004 (according to Game Developer Magazine).

Call me a fanboy or whatever, Nintendo delivers on the goods.  It makes promises, it keeps them, it meets deadlines, it makes a quality product.  What has Amiga Inc. done?  Oh yeah, they gave you $50 T-shirts 3 years later...

If Nintendo bought Amiga, you'd have real games again.  You'd have your PPC cpu, you'd have your ATI graphics, your stability.  Why should Nintendo be so dedicated to you?  Unlike Sony and Microsoft, video game entertainment is their ONLY business.  A business designed around pleasing YOU.  They only make money by satifying lots of individual users.  Not by selling a server OS to a big company, not by selling DVD players and walkmen or TV's.

I realize now that these are foreign concepts to an Amiga user.

Finally,
Why do I care about what performance stats of Linux on a 400Mhz Pentium vs. Linux on a gamecube?  This thread, no this website is about Amiga.  You all claim to want a PPC Amiga (regarless of the fact that very few of you will actually spend the money on it) and the one you have settled for is still in many ways inferior to a Gamecube.  Atleast I'll be able to run my "old" Gamecube software on the G5 powered Nintendo Revolution (or 21, whatever the final name is).  I have a clear upgrade path...and actuall products that I will spend money on and be satisfied with.

By the way, I am buying the keyboard and broadband adapter because I want to play Phantasy Star 1 & 2 + and 3 online.  And I own Mario Kart, the most fun and addictive kart racing game ever, and it supports LAN play up to 16 players (I play it in split screen with my brother, nephew and niece now).  I have a home network already and will probably purchase a second-hand gamecube for $60 maybe another broadband adapter.  Since I own a real product, I intend to have fun using it.

Wayne can close this thread as far as I am concerned.

[neofree]

Proprietary hardware is WHY the Amiga failed, IMHO.  One day I think the people owning the patents and copyrights will get it.  Maybe not...

Thanks,

Neofree

[adolescent]

@lou

Problem is you don't listen.  People gave you real facts to why it technically or logisticly wouldn't work.  Yet you ignore that and adamantly say it could.  Times change, what worked for Amiga 20+ years ago may not work today.    

That said, the GC is a good game machine.  My GC, bought the first day they came out, as well as my Panasonic Q get moderate useage.  I only wish Nintendo hadn't all but discarded their online plans.  IMHO, this is one of the reasons Nintendo is #3 in the home console market.

[Louis Dias]

Nintendo never had online plans but gave the system the ability to go online to allow 3rd party developers like SEGA and EA, whom at the time had their own online networks, to develop online titles without having to pay Nintendo an extra licensing fee.  The fact that SEGA only released PHANTASY STAR 1&2, PHANTASY STAR 1 & 2 PLUS and PHANTASY STAR 3 and none of their ESPN titles is a travesty.  The same goes for EA.  Remember the big dispute about XBOX Live and EA?  Microsoft finally loosened up and did a pass-through to EA's servers.  Don't blame Nintendo, they supplied the tools, only SEGA built the bridge but made it a one series highway.  Phantasy Star.  I don't see why Skies Of Arcadia couldn't like the Dreamcast version...but the Cube's director's cut (S.O.A. Legends) was better anyway...

By the way, it was this Christmas that MS finally took over and put some distance on the #2 spot worldwide.  Up til then Nintendo was in #2 except for one brief period despite what Microsoft has led everyone to believe.  Right now it's Xbox 19.9 million and GC 18.8.  The Xbox had a great Christmas season, I'm sure HALO 2 had something to do with that.  Resident Evil 4 and the next Zelda may cause this new and sudden gap to narrow considerably before the next generation appears.

[billt]

lou_dias:

Dude, you sound awfully excited about this idea. Technologically there's no real reason it cannot happen. The problems are documentation and licensing to allow it to happen.

As you seem so determined that Flipper documentation can so easily be had from ATI, and the CPU documentation can so easily be had from IBM, I offer you the challenge to present your business proposal to these and other companies involved (Hyperion and Amiga Inc/KMOS, Nintendo, etc.) and request said documentation. Offer to sign NDAs where necessary. Don't just run in shouting you want AmigaOS on Gamecube, make a respectable proposal to present to these guys, they're businessmen and will want to know about the money they will make from this venture. There may be licensing fees required to make certain things possible that you'll have to pay.

After you've done this and obtained all documentation required, including full CPU instruction set, especially the differences between it and a "standard" PowerPC chip, Flipper's full programming model, and the programming models for all built-in accessories of both CPU and flipper like serial port controllers, CD controller, memory controller, etc. as well as obtaining an AmigaOS HAL and driver development kits, then please come back to us and request programmers serious about doing the work. They'll likely need to legally be considered "employees" of your venture to be covered by your NDA contracts, regardless of if they work for pay or for free.

Please understand that while documentation may exist for certain things, there may also be contractual agreements in place preventing certain such documentation being shared with people not directly involved with the Gamecube. For example, Nintendo may have a contract preventing ATI from releasing documentation for Flipper to you or Hyperion or Amiga Inc. Likewise for the customized PowerPC CPU from IBM. Even if some parties are willing, it only takes one rejection to wreck the whole project. With the Gamecube development kit you've mentioned, game developers do not need to know such intimate details of the chips, so I'd be suprised if they are allowed to see the chip documentation.

That doesn't make a hypothetical AmigaOS porter's life easy though, as you cannot for example make a Picasso96 driver without knowing the chip's programming model. And relying too much on the existing GamecubeOS will give you a result similar to Shapeshifter or Amithlon, where  your hypothetical AmigaOS "port" would not be the "OS", it would at best be an "application pretending to be an OS".

Please understand that just because something may be technologically possible doesn't mean it will ever happen. Personally I'd love to see AmigaOS native on an iBook, but there doesn't seem to be an agreeable business in that for those controlling certain licenses required. Gamecube is going to be even less realistic to these businessmen. There's nothing you or I or anybody else here can do to change that.

If you still disagree about this, then again, please write up a business proposal and present it to those you'll need documentation, licenses and development kits from, dance the business politics dance, and prove us nay-sayers wrong. I would not be unhappy to be proven wrong, as if you can do it then there's a better chance of getting what I want done.

[Hammer]

Now you are getting a bit personal. That is immature considering you know nothing about me. If I do qualify as a Nintendo "fanboy" as you put it, it is because Nintendo has won me over as a high quality and reputable producer of both consoles and very entertaining software. I was not an NES fan in my youth and resented it for displacing the Atari 2600/5200/7800 as king of that generation. I was a Sega Genesis(Masterdrive) fan over the SNES. Yes I did not like Nintendo at all. The N64 was impressive but not enough for me to go and buy one (I liked the Sega Saturn but we know where that went). I have an N64 emulator now on my PC. The Gamecube however has completely won me over as the highest quality system of the big 3...and the company itself has won me over. Looking back, my reasons for resenting the company were childish (I'm in my 30's now) and just plain prejudiced at times. I've grown up. You should too.

Being a fan is one thing, but to implement such a plan is a different matter altogether. Be realistic with your expectations.

Every critisism I've heard about the GC not being a good platform for an OS can also be said of any pre-OS 4 Amiga. In the end, the GC is a tightly intergrated - hence efficient - system extactly like your beloved classic Amigas. Citisize it and you critisize your own past.

IF GC documents are so easy to find why there are some difficulties in creating a full Game Cube emulator (1)(2)?  

Notes;
1. Dolwin 0.10, Open source; bugs heaven. Runs only a few demos.  
2. Dolphin, Close source; able run a *very few* commercial games with tons of bugs.
3. Ninphin, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
4. WhineCube, Close source; Runs only a few demos.

If you know more about GC please contribute to
http://dolwin.emulation64.com/
Dolwin uses documentation from http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/yagcd.html
Dolwin’s status indicates the incomplete nature of publicly available GC documentation.
Open source group has access to SoftPear/PearPC’s own efforts (includes system programmers who can write JIT-CPU emulator).  

If Nintendo bought Amiga, you'd have real games again. You'd have your PPC cpu, you'd have your ATI graphics, your stability.

What kind of PowerPC "G3" are we talking about?  
ArtX stuff is not quite related to ATI's Radeon.

[Louis Dias]

Hammer wrote:
IF GC documents are so easy to find why there are some difficulties in creating a full Game Cube emulator (1)(2)?  

Notes;
1. Dolwin 0.10, Open source; bugs heaven. Runs only a few demos.  
2. Dolphin, Close source; able run a *very few* commercial games with tons of bugs.
3. Ninphin, Close source; Runs only a few demos.
4. WhineCube, Close source; Runs only a few demos.

If you know more about GC please contribute to
http://dolwin.emulation64.com/
Dolwin uses documentation from http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/yagcd.html
Dolwin’s status indicates the incomplete nature of publicly available GC documentation.
Open source group has access to SoftPear/PearPC’s own efforts.

Who is talking about emulating a GC?  And obviously somebody found something out something to be able to run some commercial games.  In the end, if you want to know how to program a GC you need to become a licensed developer and get the kit.  Isn't that just a bit obvious?  Why am I being asked how to program the Flipper and to show proof?  Only one party can port OS4 to the GC and that's Hyperion, not me.  And to do that, they need a license...imagine that.

What kind of PowerPC "G3" are we talking about?  
ArtX stuff is not quite related to ATI's Radeon.

It's a well known fact that the GC uses the G3 750 series 'Gekko'.  Also, who said Flipper is related to Radeon?  I said ATI is incoporating Flipper technology into FUTURE Radeons but even this statement is from 2001 so we already may have a Radeon with incorporated Flipper features (primarily large high bandwidth on-die texture cache).

OS 4 is already a PPC OS.  All that would need reprogramming is the hardware abstraction layer.  Hyperion wasted alot of time having to write BIOS code and drivers for the A1's southbridge, northbridge and various potential sound, video and lan cards.  The Flipper handles all that and memory management too.  No need to implement a work around for the Via bug...so many delays.  The Nintendo dev kit would have supplied the low level stuff.  Eyetech could have designed a SX-1-like addon like the GBA player that gives you 2 ide ports, usb and what ever else you might want (possibly some traditional ram to use as virtual memory) instead of a full-blown much revised and delayed and now outdated motherboard.

Anyway, this discussion needs to end.  It's all only what could have been, not what will be.