Video editing - some advice please!!

[lorddef]

I use Newtek Aura Paint and Adobe Premiere on my PC, I'm no pro and I find em just fine.

Aura's a fine little app... me and a friend are going to start an Aura user site pretty soon...I think it's of the most under-stated of all the apps I've used... it's extremely powerful for its price...and yet NOBODY seems to even know it exists.. it's one of the best rotoscoping and video paint apps I've ever used... it's an easy to use and learn 2D animation program.. it's an (OK)(for the low end) compositor... it's a killer texturing tool... and a good general purpose 2D package... it's got alot of nice features that come with it... color correction,keyframer,stroke recorder,ability to use photoshop plugins,  it has a wonderful array of plugins for just screwing around doing various effects.. I love the ability to keyframe virtually anything and mix and match.

The only thing it needs now is 3D Paint and OpenGL accelerated 3D... and we're rockin.... 3D compositing

[Tigger]

Bodie wrote:
Hate to barge in here, but out of curiosity, is there any alternative to the Toaster for PAL Amigas?

Amiga solutions for PAL video editing.   Draco & Digital Broadcaster both would do PAL or had PAL versions available.  Due to Motorola, the Amiga Video Toaster was never available as a PAL device.  The x86 Video Toaster does both PAL & NTSC.
     -Tig

[Pyromania]

Hi mips_proc:

 I think your being a little hard on Jule. Jule was only trying to recommend an Amiga solution because if you read the original post from Unit21 he said he was looking for an Amiga based video production solution because he did not like Windows. I like you also own a Video Toaster [2], great system but I would not get ride of my Flyer system because I have it. I enjoy both systems and they work well together. In fact ask Newtek about the flaws in Toaster [2]'s CG. For now the CG on the Amiga Video Toaster Flyer is more functional and usable per Newtek’s Video Toaster [2] product manager, ask him yourself. And for you to recommend Adobe Premier to someone that was looking for an Amiga video solution is quite laughable. Premiere is a joke program that is given away free with most video capture cards. The Flyer does so much more than this limited unintuitive video editing software (Premiere). Try doing a mixture of a live action sequence with a animated CG character in Premiere and get back with me on what your results were. The Flyer has no problem doing this.  As far as the Video Toaster [2] goes it is of course fantastic and I like you love mine. Many can’t afford it though and if they love Amiga OS like Unit21 does there is nothing wrong with them starting out with an Amiga based Video Toaster Flyer solution. If he starts his video production business and does well with it then he could get a T[2] later on. Sure I would not recommend a Flyer if the user were looking for a system to do heavy Lightwave 3D work but he is looking to do editing. The Flyer is a wonderful editing environment. That is one of the reasons that my company still supports the Flyer as well as the VT[2]. In fact we have a product coming out that allows you to use a T[2] card in a PCI based Amiga. As far as not needing a switcher? Most people that do any type of quality editing need to switch between video sources. The valid points you made is if someone buys a used Amiga system they better be an Amiga techie or be friends with a local dealer or user group in case they have Amiga questions or there system ever needs repaired. As far as the Video Toaster & Flyer cards goes, Newtek fixes these for free so your ass is covered.  If the Amiga based Video Toaster Flyer had not been such a great product you and I would not be enjoying our Video Toaster [2]’s right now because Newtek would no longer exist. Sorry for the long post but recommending Premiere over the Flyer had me rolling on the floor laughing. Use the Flyer for a few minutes and you will see what I mean.

Best regards

Bill Panagouleas
DiscreetFX
Founder/CEO
bill@discreetfx.com
www.discreetfx.com

And for you to recommend Adobe Premier to someone that was looking for an Amiga video solution is quite laughable

Premiere is for Windows not AmigaOS/Amiga and for a home user it's fine.. for DV editing there is no need to buy decks or advanced hardware to edit with... just a cheap PC and a low-end DV-Cam and you're off tape/edit the family picknicks all day long... and as you later mention it's very cheap...

The Flyer does so much more than this limited unintuitive video editing software (Premiere).

the Amiga+Video Toaster+ Flyer ...yes it can do 'more' (namely working with analog sourced stuff) it also costs what? (we settled on I believe 2000 could get a USED toaster+Amiga+drives+flyer) 1750$ more?

Try doing a mixture of a live action sequence with a animated CG character in Premiere and get back with me on what your results were

I dont comp in premiere... and sure as hell wouldnt comp on an amiga...

Many can’t afford it though

yes thats very true... but with the Amiga Video Toaster+Amiga+Flyer+040 ... what will they spend? I mean we can all see deals here and there...but what does a -COMPLETE- rig cost you from a dealer? I priced one out on softhut and used  600$ a base-price for a A4000D off ebay and hit the 3700$ mark... thats not cheap either Mr. Panagouleas. I would like to here what your company sells a complete VT+Amiga+Flyer+memory whole ball of wax for? (not counting video monitors/decks/etc). I doubt it's much cheaper.

In fact we have a product coming out that allows you to use a T[2] card in a PCI based Amiga

now that I have to see... my T2 needed a P4 2ghz+1GB memory+scsi raid (now some work with IDE at the time no)... can you give details? will it be in another tower? that actually does sound like a cool idea if its workable.

As far as not needing a switcher? Most people that do any type of quality editing need to switch between video sources

I was talking about 'live switching'  switching from multiple cams for example... not switching from multiple source decks.. but since you want to argue that the 'quality' editors need to use multiple-sources () ... then maybe you can explain what a video array is for ?...because non-linear editing took off long ago...and with capabilities of 4+ hours on one you can mix and match video to your hearts content...switching so to speak from uncompressed file to uncompressed file.

Sorry for the long post but recommending Premiere over the Flyer had me rolling on the floor laughing

well I cant see why? unless of course you think every home-user should go out and buy multi thousand dollar old  editing solutions?I personally say if your gonna go low-end (home user) Adobe Primere or Vegas Video are fine solutions... considering

in short... I agree that the flyer/amiga/video toaster for it.. they where good in their 'time' but now? come on...an entire VT2 is comparable to the price of a 'NEW" A4000+Video Toaster+Flyer+Drives+memory... so if we're gonna go dollar to dollar... why not buy a VT2?...

If we're going to go with capabilities of both?... Speed Razor/Vegas Video with a TargaRTX or DPS Perception... much cheaper.... about the same capabilities.

If we want to just sit and do some home editing and dont want to spend much?... a cheap PC with adobe premiere is fine.

I dont fault someone like Jule for sticking with the system... if you 'ALREADY" have it.. and it 'gets the job done' there is no reason to get rid of it... but a new person just getting into video starting out fresh? I wouldnt recommend it..

One of the reasons this is a vile point for me is that when I started to get into video I had a similer expierence bieng steered the wrong way by a guy who ran a computer shop and tried to sell me on an a Targa 1000Pro when the 2000 had just come out...the 1000 wasnt bad ...dont get me wrong it did it's job...but the price/performance ratio was horrible and I still have it sitting here unused years and years later.

[Pyromania]

Oh boy here we go. I know Premiere is only for Windows and not Amiga OS, that does not make it any less crap. I would not recommend Premiere to anyone even a home user. The crap interface and the render everything attitude of this package has turned off many budding new video editors. Premiere is not fine for the beginner or anyone for that matter, it is crap period. By recommending it to anyone you are just giving him or her a world of frustration. Since you brought up Vegas Video I tried that out and found it's word processor interface to some it up in one word "Lacking". Also the learning curve is too long and it lacks needed features. It has plenty of useless buzzword features though.  The problem with many software solutions on  Windows is the programmers of these packages don't have a clue about the broadcast video editing/TV industry. Real editors don’t want their video editing software packages to look like word processors with lots of pull down menus and stupid geek terms. They want their video editing hardware/software to look like what it replaces video editing hardware. Switchers, Digital Disk Recorders, Proc Amps, Vectorscopes Etc. That is what has always been so nice about Newtek. Boot up a Video Toaster [2] and bide goodbye to the Windows interface. T[2] looks and acts like what it replaces, editing equipment.

 The Flyer also has a wonderful real-time easy to use interface and you don’t to render your video project or effects. In fact this is what hurts many of the DV only solutions, you have to render out to DV tape. A very long process I might add. Also I never said you had to buy decks. MiniDV works fine with the Flyer in fact you get to hook it direct, no TBC required. Can you hookup via Firewire? No but a live feed recorded to the Flyer will look better than the compression DV tape offers anyway.  By the way my company does not sell computers or computer equipment. We are a developer and sell only the hardware/software that we develop. I do see complete Video Toaster Flyer systems sell on ebay all the time though for about $1100, a great value for sure. Normally I don’t get involved in on-line debates but Jule was getting pummeled for no reason. Am I trying to say that the PC is not suited for video/editing? Of course not, there are many great packages like Combustion, DFX+ and VT[2] of course but these solutions will cost you and the original poster was asking for Amiga solutions. The SGI also has some killer solutions for video/editing/effects like Flint, Flame and Smoke but you will need about $200,000 to start. As far as needing a switcher, even shooting a simple thing like a graduation requires several cameras to do it right. Your going to save yourself lots of time in post if you take advantage of a real-time switcher.  As you pointed out if you find a used Amiga Toaster system at a price close to a new or used Video Toaster [2] system then of course go for the T[2], only a fool would not go for it if the price is about the same. With the announced T[3] software upgrade coming out this system will continue to go from strength to strength. As far as Ami[2] goes (our product that lets you put a T[2] in your Amiga). It only takes advantage of a few of the features of T[2] so does not need a 2Ghz processor. Depending on how well the product is received and how it sells will determine what features we add over time. I think the On-Topic thing to do since this is amiga.org and the original poster asked for Amiga video editing solutions since they hate Windows is to recommend Amiga solutions with the understanding that it is a used system. There is no reason to be Adobe pimp daddys in an Amiga only forum.

Best regards

Bill Panagouleas
DiscreetFX
Founder/CEO
bill@discreetfx.com
www.discreetfx.com

well you obviousely have you're mind made up..premiere bieng 'crap' and vegas video 'lacking' *(because real pro's dont like the interface)...I'm not going to argue  with you about it anymore then I already have.

on another note... will your  PCI toaster work in AmigaOS4.0 on the AmigaOne?...

[Pyromania]

?

[Pyromania]

mips_proc wrote:
well you obviousely have you're mind made up..premiere bieng 'crap' and vegas video 'lacking' *(because real pro's dont like the interface)...I'm not going to argue  with you about it anymore then I already have.

on another note... will your  PCI toaster work in AmigaOS4.0 on the AmigaOne?...

Try them if anyone can pull you away from your awesome Video Toaster [2] and you will see.

Not at first since Ami[2] will require a Mediator based Amiga 4000D or T with a Video Toaster 4000 card and a Flyer card. It could at some point in the future no longer require this as the software included with it matures. The initial release will focus on adding features to the Amiga Toaster that it does not have like Firewire and Componete in/Uncompressed recording.

[Unit21]

@ Everyone

Thanks a lot for your opinions and advice.

I have been looking at some PC-based 'DV-solutions' within my price-range. The only thing I haven't tried yet is Adobe Premiere, which I will get my hands on later today I hope....
But as my budget is rather small for the DV-world I probably have to settle for something cheaper. After all, the PC applications that are up to the job cost well over $500 here in Norway.
I can buy a complete DraCo 060 for that...
Plus, I haven't really found an application that I *like* yet...

If it is of any interest I will let you all know how it turns out when I finally decide what to get, at the end of this week.

@ mips_proc

Don't take it personal if I buy a DraCo after all.....  :-D

[Pyromania]

Unit21 the Draco is a nice system. While other company's boasted about vaporware Amiga clones like the BoXer, Macrosystems Germany delivered a fully functional Amiga OS clone with the Draco. If Amiga software ran from Workbench and did not need the custom chips chances were that it would run ok on Draco. Macrosystems delivered what others were not able to. I just wish they continued to make the Draco because it is a nice system.

[Siggy]

*(because real pro's dont like the interface)..

Actually we do ;-).

I'm not a fan of the Microsoft environment (far from it). But until video applications for Linux (such as Cinelera) mature, or the Amiga makes a comeback, I'm stuck with it.

At work I use an Avid Symphony, and for freelance work (the 'home' system) I use mainly Premier and After Effects. Going from work to home isn't that much of an environment change (of course I do prefer the system at work - but who has that kind of cash to throw around?)

After spending years with the production board and deck paradigm, the last thing I want to see is a graphic representation of it. I'd rather stare at 'clippy the microsoft paperclip' until my eyes bleed.

Simplicity and abstraction - an interface that enables me to manipulate my work quickly and efficiently. That's what makes a good interface.

I do have a 2000 with a toaster, I use it to live switch on multiple camera shoots - In this capacity it's a great low cost solution, but I agree with you on the editing front, you can get much more bang for buck elsewhere.

Siggy.

@Siggy

I much agree and I have alot of respect for Avid's products. I wasnt making a statement myself when I wrote that commenting on what was already said.

I personally like more technical interfaces that give greater control.
my favorite 3D app is XSI! ... I do like newtek stuff but It isnt because of the UI's so much as the functionality.
Lightwave for example... I like Lightwave because I can turn off all menus and viewport nav and have 4 viewports(NOT because it reminds me of something 30 years old)... do the rest by key bindings and I'm ready to roll.

I personally see where your comming from with adobre premiere and after effects... for editing DV it's fine(in AE"s case its fine all around for anything) ...despite what people might make you think.

I'd like to see Avid cut its prices.. their prices put them in an extremely vertical market...all their products are very very expensive... but hey... quality dosent come cheap!

@Unit21

I dont take it personally.... get whatever you like... I was just worried someone over-zealous for amiga was going to push it on you as thought it was completely modern when it's not.
If you can get a draco for 600$ it's worth it just to keep as a collectors Item..if nothing else...since it's value will rise.

[Clooned]

Has someone tried these systems?

AmigaOne+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ Cinelerra (or similar videoediting software)

or

Amigaone+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ MOL+ iMovie or FinalCut.

Thank You.

[Unit21]

@ Clooned

Clooned wrote:
Has someone tried these systems?

AmigaOne+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ Cinelerra (or similar videoediting software)

or

Amigaone+ Firewire PCIcard+ Linux+ MOL+ iMovie or FinalCut.

I might try a setup over the weekend. I have plans for installing Linux on my Pegasos, but because my Gfx-card isn't supported too well I have put it off until now...

@ Everyone

I got a new laptop at work today. A fairly new thingy with P4@1,7 Ghz and 256Mb of RAM, firewire and so on...
Since I work for a Linux-company I had to pull some strings to get to install Windows on it, but I now have permisson to have Win2k for 'testing purposes', as they like to call it.
So, is Adobe Premiere/ After Effects worth the 'hefty' pricetag, or is there something else that I should have a serious look at?
Now bear in mind that I'm still just a humble hobby-user...  I ask the pros for advice ;-)