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Offline Unit21Topic starter

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Video editing - some advice please!!
« on: February 26, 2003, 01:53:39 PM »
Just want some of your opinions and advice on this.

I am looking at getting me some video-editing equipment for home-use.
As I'm not too fond of Windows I am wondering if this is something
that can be done on the Amiga with a good enough result.

I am seriously considering the DraCo, as it has most of the functionality I need,
but I would really like to hear from people with some experience in the field of video-editing....

All advice is greatly appreciated!  :-)
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Offline Desler

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 02:04:30 PM »
If you have a powerfull pc you can benefit from both worlds by using emulation. Grab your video using very cheap pc equipment. Save in a amiga friendly format. (This means almost anything) edit it in your emulated amiga with ppaint, profesional paint, tvpaint or any other high quality amiga paint proggy. Export your edited video back to an appropriate media..
Eaasy :-D
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Offline Skippy

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 02:33:28 PM »
Here is a list of some software applications I have, most of which will require additional hardware. [see classified adverts]
http://www.amigarealm.com/amiga/amivideo/av7.htm

I have some slightly older video software that I have not yet upload, mainly PD and Coverdisk.

Skippy
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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2003, 10:27:10 PM »
The problem with DraCo is that it uses the M-JPEG (Motion JPEG) format. I' ve been using an AV MASTER card (PC, from Fast Multimedia) which uses the same format. IT SUCKS!

I am not a PC fun, but I think that you should better consider a MATROX RT2500 or a MATROX RTX10.
Both use the MPEG-2 format in BROADCAST QUALITY and edit in Real-Time of course...

I have a Matrox RT2500 for some time now. If you want to ask anything just mail me.

As a professional Video artist for 13 years now, I think it's better to use todays power than spending more money on somethink that IT IS NOT 100% Amiga Compatible (No AGA chipset on DraCo means NO ScalaMM .....)

Unless of course you have an AMIGA4000T and a VLAB MOTION...

:-)
 

Offline sprocket

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2003, 11:51:19 PM »
HeHemmm,

I just happen to be auctioning my Vlab Motion board, toccata sound board and Movieshop 4.3 editing software as a group on ebay.  It has SVHS and composite input and output on the Vlab Motion board, the toccata is 16 bit audio and the software is pretty straightforward.  With a 3000 of 4000T with a display card  and a large scsi drive you won't need any thing else....no time base corrector as the vlm manages to stabilize the incoming video itself.   I would suggest you have a'040 or better.

This isn't going to provide you with world class state of the art professional video but it does home tape editing just fine.

If interested...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3403627707&ssPageName=ADME:L:DS:US:8

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--Wil

Sincerely,

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Offline Pyromania

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2003, 04:08:50 AM »
Pick up a used Amiga 4000 or 4000T with a Video Toaster 4000 card and a Flyer card. You will be in Amiga video editing heaven.
 

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2003, 05:40:46 AM »
if you dont like windows get a mac... the amiga is 100% obselete for video editing.

modern editing (the kind I assume you want to get into or WILL want to get into) is DV editing. Amigas lack both the tools and the raw cpu to do such editing.
On the windows side you have several sub 1000$ editing options... the best of wich I think is Vegas Video (about 700$) and a FireWire card... get a nice plump 80 gig drive...and you can edit non-realtime just fine.

In a mac there is pretty much Final Cut Pro and premiere and thats it...

on amiga?... if you plan to do editing by 10 year old standerds you could purchase an A4000T  and outfit it with about 10,000 worth of junk hardware to be able to get it on par with PC editing of about 1998 or so.

I wouldnt waste your money.... and this isnt me trolling... it's seriousely a total waste and you may find it nostalgic but a complete waste of money at the same time... amigas have nothing to do with practical application.

I know alot of users here may steer you toward spending an extreme ammount of money out of love for the amiga...but it's essentially useless for this and has been for many many years. the Video Toaster has extremely limited and slow non-linear capabilities. It's bascially a 4 input switcher and a 24 bit frame buffer for performing insert/assemble  AB roll editing.
It's like taking 1970's level editing and putting it into one cheap little box... it was extremely revolutionary in the 1980's and early 90's... but if you want something 'good' or at least 'decent' by todays stands you should seriousely think about a PC... if money is no option and you dont care to much about the relatively low performance a Mac might be a good idea(final cut pro is a kickass app by any standerds)...

If you want to be the 'weird' route and this is just a hobby/etc you "COULD" (I dont advise this) get a Pegasos and use Motion Studio with MorphOS... It's a pretty friendly consumer level editing solution... albeit pretty far behind mac/pc solutions.

 

Offline Jule

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2003, 07:12:45 AM »
Newtek's Video Toaster Flyer system is still a great system.  There is nothing faster for basic editing speed because much of the processing is done by the dedicated hardware.  In addition, the software is mature and stable.  The main disadvantages are that it does not accept firewire input, and that it is available in NTSC only, not PAL.  The compression used (proprietary) is good and keeps the video at D2 broadcast quality.  Of course the software includes such bonuses as lightwave (up to 5.0).  My flyer system is faster at basic editing  than my friends G4 and easier to use.  Last year I did an hour long video complete with lots of transitions and it took less than 5 minutes to "render".  Jule  
 

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2003, 08:04:29 AM »
I wont comment on this except to say... you got two routes...

1:be smart and spend your money on video editing performance

2:be zealous and spend your money on an obselete solution that 'feels' better to the heart but produces things 'ugly' to the eye. or is incapable of produceing something period.

toaster is a 4 input switcher for AB roll or live switching it supports 24 bit color to handle video... it supports D2 editing...wich is still fine...but you gotta get the video onto obselete VHS to edit it... or somehow transfer it onto the amiga to get it on the flyer or DPS Par... the par supported ATA 33 IDE drives up to 2.1GB (IIRC it was 2.1GB)... the flyer supports Scsi2 wich is sorely obselete... your gonna work non-linear on a machine with a maximum capable cpu of 50mhz... remember this dosent run off the PPC.

Lightwave 5.0? we're at 7.5 ... we have hardware accelerated OpenGL... a nice P4 will crank out more realistic 3D in realtime in it's modeler then the Amiga can realistically render in a day(if we're gonna judge this by frames per seconed).

Toaster Paint?... Toaster Paint 2.5 mops floor with it in every respect imaginable... filters/george scripts/video paint/roto/animated 2D/motion path I/O/stroke recorder/color correction/photoshop external filters.

then you got the overall 'cost' to consider.

an A4000T+64MB of EDO+4 SCSI drives+Video Toaster+Flyer+a conversion deck(gotta convery from new DV to VHS somehow). the A4000T all told will probably cost you MORE then a modern VT2 box... I find the idea insane.
 

Offline Unit21Topic starter

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2003, 08:59:38 AM »
@ mips_proc

Quote
...get a Pegasos and use Motion Studio with MorphOS...


That wouldn't be all wrong, as I already have a Pegasos. If Titan could only release Motion Studio, but I guess they have to finish it first. Or maybe you know of a beta...? ;-)
Now that I have your attention... ;)
How well does the Sgi o2 perform on video-editing. A friend of mine has one that is gathering dust in a closet somewhere...

Thanks for all advice so far ppl... :-)
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Offline selco

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2003, 09:58:25 AM »
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the draco. The comment "MJPEG SUCKS" is definitely wrong. At least for the draco with Draco-Motion. It delivers absolute great picture quality. The software "Movieshop", especially the version5, is a really great editing program. The Draco has only a 50MHz CPU, that's correct, but the hard work is done in Hardware, so the 50MHz are no issue here. Ok, calculating effects takes some time, but again, the results abe really professional.

That might be different on a PC, but the Draco was a hell expensive Profi machine and it is still *very* good.

With the Vlab-Motion in an Amiga this a little bit different. There are restrictions in picture quality  due to limited bandwith of the ZorroII-Bus and the design of the Vlab-Motion.

(The draco motion can adapt the quality on the fly. So you can tell the draco to compress the video to always fit into 6MByte/second. On Amiga you must set the quality static so that the most compicated pictures of your move not exite the bandwith of about 2.5(?) MBtye/s. So you compress most the time much to hard just ensure the few complicated pictures to fit inti the bandwith.

If you can get cheap Draco (with Dracomotion and , if possible with DV-Inmodule) you sould  really consider it. It is really worth the money.

Over Chrismas I made a video with Amiga, Draco and Lightwave, TVPaint and so on. You can find it at
ftp://de.aminet.net/pub/aminet/pix/mpg/littlejedi.mpg

The picure-quality is only limited by the mpeg-encoder here.

For real working the Draco should have a network card. (Connection to the rest of the world ;) Not all cards work in the Draco! I can recommend the Ariadne-II together with Envoy-3 for Amiga connection or Samba for PC-Connection.

There is also an adapted Amiga-OS3.9 available for the Draco.
The best (German) Draco-Portal is http://home.t-online.de/home/ing.sed/
There is also a (German) mailinglist at http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/draconer. But you could also ask in English, of course.

Hope that helps a little.

Kind regards, selco   http://selco.da.ru


 

Offline Unit21Topic starter

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2003, 10:48:13 AM »
@ selco

I've seen your little-jedi movie... And I can sense that the force is strong in that one... :-)
Just a few quick questions; What have you used to make the 'laser-effects'? And the scroll-text?
What are the limitations of the DraCo in everyday use? I mean, what would you like to do, but you cannot do on the DraCo?
How many 'special-effects' and transitions can be done in the Movieshop software?
Is there a way to convert MJPEG to other formats on the DraCo or will I have to do that on another machine?

What, in your opinion, is a fair price for a DraCo with all the bells and whistles (DracoMotion, Firewire etc.)??
What DraCos do you have? :-)

Regards,
U21
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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2003, 11:27:00 AM »
@ selco

M-JPEG SUCKS my friend.

I didnt post this for fun, I posted it to help our friend.
Have wou ever tried to measure the picture quality of M-JPEG using a Tectronix BROADCAST spectrum analyzer?

I did.

My friend, IT SUCKS!!!

This is why SMPTE and EBU (the organizations that set the Broadcast Standards) keep advising pros to work with MPEG-2 or Uncompressed Video.

p.s. I also downloaded your video a few weeks ago.
It is a beautiful work. Congratulations!
 

Offline selco

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2003, 03:59:55 PM »
@Animagic:
"Have wou ever tried to measure the picture quality of M-JPEG using a Tectronix BROADCAST spectrum analyzer?"

No, of course not. And I don't want to offend anyone. I measured it with my eyes as that is what is important for an hobbyist. And judging from  the eyes the results are superb. Of course there is is a loss in a compression like MJPeg. But with the bandwith of over 6 MBytes/s and the dynamic adaption of compression rate on the draco motion, you will not detect any visible decrease in quality.

The same argument must be true for MPEG-2 as it is also a lossy compression.

In both cases, MJPEG and MPEG-2, only  the allowed datarate / compression ratio determines the quality.

Thats different on The Amiga with Vlab-Motion. Here the hardware-limitations of the Zorro-2 bus and the VlabMotion are more serious. Maximum Bandwith about 2.5 (?) MBytes/s and the VlabMotion requires a fixed compression level. Here you have to adjust between visible quality-loss and datarate that the hardware is able to handle.

The quality of the draco is much higher than the quality of my video-sources (Digital camcorder), so...

I have both, Amiga4000T/VlabMotion and Draco/Dracomotion so I can compare.

To summarize it: I paid abou 3500DM (ca. 1750 Euro) for the draco. (old but completely unused) excluding HD and RAM. That was alot of money but I am really happy with it. It is a tool that works good on the task it has been made for.

@Unit21:
I wrote a short description at
http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43928
If you have more questions feel free to ask me. (Address is on my homepage)

I am not sure what a fair price for the draco is. Sometimes there are dracos for sale on ebay.
The best Draco-Website I know is http://home.t-online.de/home/ing.sed/     (German)

There is also a Yahoogroup for the draco. (German, but English is welcome too, of course) Sometimes member sell their machines, you could ask there.
http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/draconer/

The draco should be equipped with the "DV-Module", if possible. That gives you DV-In and -Out in addition to the analouge ports. You would probably not be able to get this module separately any more. Movieshop5 should be included, if possible. Version 4 is good too but V5 is better. If its not included you need to buy Version5, and that is quite expensive. (And you need a personal keycode that corresponds to your Draco-MachineID, so no chance get it for free somewhere)  64 MByte Ram is enough, harddisks should be huge. I replaced my 18GB HD with a 80GB-Harddisk recently. But even 18 GByte will give you about 40 Minutes at best quality. Fortunataly there are now SCSI->IDE adaptors available.(about 80 Euro IIRC)  So you can buy a cheap huge IDE Harddisk and such a connecter. This combination is much cheaper than a big SCSI-HD.

What can you do with a draco? It is made for video editing and there it is good. The draco is not an Amiga, it has no custom Chips, so no OCS/ECS/AGA nor Paula-sound. Most older programs will not work either due to custom chip-access or due to bad/incompatible programming. New programs should run.

Movieshop and especially Version 5 is great! It comes with alot of effects and additional effect-disks are still available for sale. You can combine all effects in the timelines. Additionally you can export the pictures and process them with ADPro for instance, wich is included with the Draco. Finally you would reimport them.

There is a shareware-tool wich mounts your scene as an usual Amiga-Drive. You can then load/process every single picture of your scene without exporting it before.

Finally there is a special adapted version of Amiga-OS 3.9 available for the Draco.

I use the Draco for Video-capture/editing and as additional render node for lightwave.


Kind regards selco, http://selco.da.ru
 

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Re: Video editing - some advice please!!
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2003, 06:33:52 PM »
@selco

I must admit that i was a little bit "out" in that forum.
Sometimes the mind sticks into my job, I completely forgot that the machine will be used for home projects.
There is no need for fast work, so no real-time editing is needed.
The projet will be presented in a family / friend audience, so broadcast quality is out of the question.

In this case I surely agree with DraCo!

Sorry if I missled you.

Amiga regards