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Offline DamageX

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2007, 06:38:41 AM »
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I wish I still had my GameBlaster/Creative Music System (CMS)

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You mean the "Adlib" cards?

The Adlib uses an FM synthesizer, the YM3812 (OPL2), which is also used on SBs, and early SB Pro cards which had two. The Game Blaster on the other hand, is just a bunch of sine wave and white noise channels (4x YM2149 IIRC, think Atari ST sound chip).
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I'm still not sure how the BIOS figured out to boot the system from an ISA slot

The Hardcard has its own ROM on it which is called by the BIOS after POST. Just like an Amiga SCSI zorro card or modern PCI RAID card.
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 06:53:28 AM »
@BlackMonk

I love old hardware also! I don't know if it's because I grew up with that stuff or what, but I adore older hardware. I honestly prefer my older 486 DX2 over my modern Dual Core AMD 64-bit PC! :crazy:

I think I feel this way about the 486 because A) DOS and Win 3.11 are pretty stable and a hell of alot safer for internet use than modern systems (due to OS flaws, holes, 'bugs', etc) and B) Nostalgia reasons. :-D
 
My absolute favorite computers of all time though are the Commodore 64/128 computer and Amiga computer(s).

I also dig the older PowerPC Mac's even though some; namely Power Mac and Performa 5200-53xx & 6200-6320 had bottlenecks; usually due to shoddy motherboard design. The 64-bit PowerPC CPU on a 32-bit data bus severely crippled the CPU from it's full potential. However replacing the default motherboard with a Power Mac 6360 motherboard and power supply resolved these bottlenecks.

I own a Mac Performa 6320CD for classic mac software.
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Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 10:58:41 PM »
Quote

DamageX wrote:
The Adlib uses an FM synthesizer, the YM3812 (OPL2), which is also used on SBs, and early SB Pro cards which had two. The Game Blaster on the other hand, is just a bunch of sine wave and white noise channels (4x YM2149 IIRC, think Atari ST sound chip).


Ah, the ol' OPL2/3.  I always heard the GameBlaster as an AM-based synth and the later SB's as FM-based.  I'm guessing that was the case though I might have mis-labeled the Adlib as being AM-based instead of FM.

"Yamaha used the YM-2149 core to produce a whole family of music chips which were used in mobile phones, video games etc. For example, the YM-2203 (also known as OPN) is a YM-2149 plus FM. (However, its successor, the YM-2612 (also known as OPN2) inherits only the FM part of the YM-2203.)"

Thanks for jogging the memory.  I remember now that the older SB Pro's had two OPL2's for stereo.  Hah!

Then there was the printer-port DAC, Covox Speech Thing, and that DISNEY sound system?  And Windows sound system?  I remember WSS was curious because it offered 48KHz sound instead of the 44.1KHz but was pretty much useless nonetheless.

Quote

DamageX wrote:
Quote
I'm still not sure how the BIOS figured out to boot the system from an ISA slot

The Hardcard has its own ROM on it which is called by the BIOS after POST. Just like an Amiga SCSI zorro card or modern PCI RAID card.


Yeah, I get how that works and all, it's just that I didn't think that thing had a boot ROM.  The documentation I found seemed to indicate that it did not and to get the drive to even be viewed by DOS required some driver/TSR to be loaded.

http://www.driverguide.com/boards/storage-devices10/142.html

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/88078

The support docs from Quantum/Maxtor are gone, I think, now that Seagate bought them out.

But hell, reading the microsoft link:

"Exclude the Hardcard XL's ***BIOS*** address range (the default is C800-C9FF), using either a memory manager (EMM386.EXE) or the EMMEXCLUDE= statement in the SYSTEM.INI file."

Learn somethin' new every day...
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2007, 11:07:44 PM »
A good game that uses adlib:
Catacomb Abyss

 

Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2007, 11:11:46 PM »
Quote

Invisix wrote:
My absolute favorite computers of all time though are the Commodore 64/128 computer and Amiga computer(s).

I also dig the older PowerPC Mac's even though some; namely Power Mac and Performa 5200-53xx & 6200-6320 had bottlenecks; usually due to shoddy motherboard design. The 64-bit PowerPC CPU on a 32-bit data bus severely crippled the CPU from it's full potential. However replacing the default motherboard with a Power Mac 6360 motherboard and power supply resolved these bottlenecks.

I own a Mac Performa 6320CD for classic mac software.


I never got into the C64 stuff, a little with the Atari ST.  I got into Macs later on and so got old ones cheap.  I have a few Mac IIci's, a IIsi, a Quadra 950, a Umax C600 (I think a 180 MHz 603 or 603e), and a B&W G3.  I've only messed with the B&W G3, really, and I just broke it somehow like a month ago.  Doh!  Once I figure out what's wrong with it, it should be good to go again.  I... hope.
 

Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2007, 11:20:54 PM »
Quote

koaftder wrote:
A good game that uses adlib:
Catacomb Abyss


A good one that uses CMS/GameBlaster:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/silpheed
http://www.mobygames.com/game/silpheed/trivia

Hrm, I guess that's where I got the game:

"This game came free with the CMS Game Blaster sound card."

I was straight pimpin' with an EGA card and monitor, back in the day.  Loved the music, too.  Most games that used CMS I remember really enjoying the music on, Death Track was another one.
 

Offline da9000

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2007, 04:30:38 AM »
Wow, lots of good posts!

Let's disect...

@BlackMonk:
You're right about the where-abouts of the Future Crew crew :-)
I've got a one degree connection to Purple Motion (makes music for my friend's game company), and some of the other guys (good friends with Gore).

Indeed the BitBoys were bought out by ATI for $11-30 mil., I forget right now, as a "reflex motion", when NVidia bought out another Finish mobile 3D company, Hybrid, for about the same price (I'm friends with the two founders). All in all, they did pretty well even if they didn't have any success in  the consumre hardware sector :-(

CMS: now that you and DamageX explained it in detail, I remember it! It was the competitor to Adlib. Indeed not the same.

SB16 SCSI, huh? Don't think I've seen it, or at least my memory doesn't say so!

Very interesting info about the propriatery CDROM with the wacked out through-put rate. All I can say is WTF!? :-)

Scary experience, your Win98SE on a ISA hard-card! I refuse to punish myself like I did back in the M$ days! :-p

Punch cards & tubes: see what I mean? :-D

Sliphead was a great game! I remember my friend had it and we used to play it. And DeathTrack was great too! I remember the day a friend and I went to a computer show and bought it, and took the bus to get back home eager to play it! Ah, those were good times!



@DamageX:
Thank you for the low-level details on sound cards! You seem to have some very good knowledge on this arcane subject. It'd be nice to see it added to your site! (hint, hint)

Now I'll add some of my own low-level details for anyone like BlackMonk looking to refresh their old skool memory :-)

These hardcards had their own ROM (much like SCSI cards, or even Ethernet cards, etc), which was usually mapped onto the low 1MB memory space (C0000-F0000, where A0000-BFFFF=video card buffers and F0000-FFFFF=IBM PC BIOS, like Amiga Kickstart in a way) via a jumper set (and possibly IO ports, I forget right now). Then you had to instruct the "OS" (DOS or Windows was a joke not an OS) or relevant memory expanders (EMM386), to avoid using that memory area as it was mapped to the ROM of the card. No such thing as AutoConfig in the crappy PC architecture :-) Afterwards the BIOS would communicate with the card's ROM for accessing the disk(s) on it, and your software would talk to the BIOS to do its work, so in the end it was transparent.

As an aside, this is why "BIOS Shadowing made those old computers and their crappy software faster (shadowing copies the ROM chip contents onto RAM, which is much faster - like Amiga BlizKick in a way), because they relied on the BIOS to do their work, and didn't have direct hardware access, aka drivers - and at the same time it's yet another reason BIOS Shadowing won't help you when you're running a modern OS, like Linux for example.



@koaftder:
If I'm not mistaken that (16 color EGA game) was John Carmack's first entry into the 3D labyrinth / FPS genre, and the precursor to Wolfenstein 3D!

EDIT: memory still functions: check!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_3D

@Invisix:
I would agree with your B) reason for enjoying playing with these old systems, but you are insane if you think this is true:  "A) DOS and Win 3.11 are pretty stable and a hell of alot safer for internet use than modern systems (due to OS flaws, holes, 'bugs', etc)"  :-D

I won't even comment. It's a troll-bait waiting to happen. Suffice to say: you need to either LAY OFF'EM DRUGS SON, or study a bit more about computer operating systems technologies :-)

To add to the validity of the nostalgia feelings: I was very impressed recently, after seeing again my old 3D code doing 30+ fps with 1k gouraud polys on a completely unacccelerated crappy architecture like a 486 PC. Today's CPUs are 100x faster and multi-core, but you could still do a "decent amount of work" with those old boxes.

Now as for Macs, all I'll say is that they were cool little machines. Lots of good stuff in them, and the OS even though technically crap, feature-wise and UI-wise was excellent. I wish some of the UI features, the resolution game, font-stuff and "UI consistency" was brought to the Amiga. Other than these the Mac had nothing going against the Amiga. (PS. I have lots of Mac stuff if anyone's looking for parts, and some rare accelerators too)

Ataris were somewhat cool as well (especially when the Carebears demo group got their hands on them), but not much point to them when an Amiga was there at the same time, and far superior hardware and software wise.

And of course the King of Kings (no, not Alexander the Great), or the Queen of Queens (no, not Cleopatra of Egypt), was and is the venerable Amiga.

Cheers to all the old skoolers!
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2007, 06:51:43 AM »
Quote

koaftder wrote:
A good game that uses adlib:
Catacomb Abyss



Wow! That screen shot brings back memories, this was one of the 1st 3D FPS, this came out in 1991 --- even before Wolfenstein 3D which was released in 1992.

Catacombs Abyss was the 1st in a series of 3 games, and was created by none other than the infamous John Carmack (creator of Doom), John Romero (Wolfenstein 3D), and Jason Blochowiak.

The trilogy is as follows:
Catacomb Abyss
Catacomb Armageddon
Catacomb Apocalypse

 :-D
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Offline DamageX

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2007, 07:40:45 AM »
I'm a big FM fan so I know the Yamaha chips. There's a ton of info on Japanese pages like http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM音源 but in English http://www.soundshock.se/ would be a good resource.

On the subject of win3.11 on the internet I will say one thing "ping of death" :)
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 07:57:26 AM »
@da9000

Okay, okay I admit it, my A) comment was "off the wall" so to speak, however I still stick with my "I honestly prefer my older 486 DX2 over my modern Dual Core AMD 64-bit PC! :crazy:" comment. As I stated earlier in this thread... I only have a 486 for nostalgia, and classic gaming, it's not really used for anything "serious". Serious use comes from my Amiga 1200 (the system specs are in my signature).

Absolutely nothing can ever convince me to not prefer an Amiga system over any other system. AMIGA computers are simply THE most amazing computers of all time, period! Commodore 64/128 computers come second place in my heart. :-D
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2007, 11:21:05 AM »
I still have an pentium 133 for my dos games, but really, I think it's obsolete. DosBox has almost 100% DOS compatibility (if you know how to configure it correctly), and that's more than that pentium 133 can achieve, because older games run too fast on it (moslow didn't work for me), or for one game you need emm386 and the other not... fussing around with one game to be needed to installed on C:, and the other in another directory of it's own, messing it all up for you.
No, Dosbox + dbgl is all the way for me considering dosgaming, (except for one old 8086/80286 with monochrome monitor, for dust sniffing purposes)

Just accept this wisdom from an old MS-DOS veteran. ;-)
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 12:23:26 AM »
Well... you can use DOS 6.22's multi-config booting option to have various bootup configs.  I did that, had like 3 or 4 configs for various amounts of RAM and memory managers.  For instance, Wing Commander liked EMS, I believe.  However, many demos didn't want ANY XMS or EMS, just raw memory.  Zone66 I think didn't want any EMS.  DOS was fast enough booting that it wasn't too much of an issue to reboot when you wanted a different config.

Using DOSBox is like using WinUAE.  There's many people who just prefer the real thing.  Sure, DOSBox or WinUAE are more accessible, less prone to breaking, portable, and work just fine.  But they just don't have as much sex appeal.  :D

-----------------

For the SB16 SCSI, I got a refresher myself from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster_16

Sound Blaster 16 SCSI-2
Sound Blaster 16 MCD
Sound Blaster 16 Value Edition
Sound Blaster 16 IDE
Sound Blaster 16 ASP   (this is what I had)
Sound Blaster 16 WavEffects
Sound Blaster 16 PCI   (really an Ensoniq card)

If I recall, the SCSI-2 and IDE interfaces wouldn't boot.  So it was a SCSI interface for pretty much only attaching CD-ROMs.  I think I read about some people trying to use scanners or tape drives, but I don't recall much in the way of success.  Same with hard drives and hard drives on the IDE card.

The MCD/ASP versions had a proprietary CD-ROM interface that did Matsushita and... I think Toshiba and also Panasonic?  I think the drives that worked with those cards did not actually work with a "real" IDE interface.  If you didn't have the SB16, you were out of luck.

Oh, hey, more digging:

http://www.irlp.net/owners/sb_cards.html

"Panasonic, Mitsumi, Sony interface"

Panasonic = Matsushita, durrr.  I knew that.  Yeah, those were the propietary drives.  Not sure if other sound cards jumped on that bandwagon, maybe the Pro Audio Spectrum or some such.

Windows 3.11 stank.  I'm happy to not have to deal with Winsock stuff anymore, or set up PPP internet connections.  Blargh!  Even if it's dog slow, I always try to get Win95 at least as an OS on an old DOS machine mainly for networking ease of use.  I'm not quite brave enough to mess with Netware or LANtastic or some of the opensource things like FreeDOS or OpenDOS or whatnot.
 

Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 12:31:12 AM »
Matshita/Matsushita/Panasonic.

Why couldn't they decide on one name?

CD-563 is the 2x CD-ROM I had.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/electronics/panapcfaq.html

From memory, the reason it had whacked out performance results was because it had a 64KB memory buffer on the drive itself, so as soon as it filled that it dumped it and you got 1.5 MBps.  Then it went back to 300 KBps.  Good times!
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 08:21:07 PM »
All this talk about Sound Blaster, and GUS (Gravis Ultra Sound) cards, but... what about the mighty Roland LAPC-I cards?

Roland LAPC-I cards produced the best wavetable MIDI, music in games sounded like their actual instruments, one hell of an amazing soundcard. GUS is simular with emulation, but doesn't take the cake... a real Roland LAPC-I is amazing.

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Offline BlackMonk

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2007, 11:22:05 PM »
Because the MT32/LAPC-I sucked for games.  Now don't get me wrong, the music was nice, but there were no DIGITAL effects.  

I think I have/had an MT32 for a short time and recall playing some games where the sound effects of, say, the guns or whatever were drum hits.  That you had to try and hear over the regular soundtrack.

Here's a trip down memory lane for some game names:

http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/roland.htm

By the time I got ahold of a MT32, I already had experienced general MIDI with a SB16+WaveBlaster and of course a GUS doing general MIDI and doing realtime mixing of arbitrary samples like with MODs.  Before then, the MT32 was just too dang expensive.

I had heard for a while how awesome it was but when I finally got to try it out, I was really disappointed.  For some reason the games I recall trying to use the MT32 with would work with only one sound card at a time.  I could either do SB16 (or SB original) for digital sound and FM synth, or I could do MT32 for wavetable synth, but I couldn't assign the digital sound to the SB16 and the music to the MT32.  But it's been enough decades that I couldn't tell you particulars, maybe I was just trying the wrong games or retarded in my setup at the time.
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #44 from previous page: November 28, 2007, 11:37:11 PM »
Quote


Well... you can use DOS 6.22's multi-config booting option to have various bootup configs. I did that, had like 3 or 4 configs for various amounts of RAM and memory managers. For instance, Wing Commander liked EMS, I believe. However, many demos didn't want ANY XMS or EMS, just raw memory.
Yes, and that fussing around, I hated.

Quote
Using DOSBox is like using WinUAE. There's many people who just prefer the real thing.

Oh yes, I normally prefer the real thing above others, but I see dosbox more like a tool for the real thing, rather than being an emulator.
But, considering a 286 with a monochrome display, I'd say you're right. :-)
And the canary said: \'chirp\'