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Offline stopthegop

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 12:40:38 PM »
@Karlos:

They were drinking.  
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Offline FixerTopic starter

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 01:00:17 PM »
Quote

InTheSand wrote:
My 2c worth:

XP will do just fine until Microsoft stops releasing fixes for it - this is probably the OS to stick with for now if you've already bought and paid for it (though if you're stuck at SP1, I wonder!!!)


It seems the PC I'm using now (old P3) doesn't like anything over SP1. My friend tried SP2 on it before he gave it to me and it apparently just ran sluggish on everything.

SP1 seems to work fine. I just make sure to set up the firewall properly before connecting to the net for the first time and I also disable Java in Firefox. I don't appear to get Viruses. I do a spyware scan now and then though.

Quote

AndrewBell wrote:
Yes, XP has a few more years yet. Many people still use 98, and the signs are that XP could keep going for just as long.


Hi Andrew.

Yeh I was using 98 myself for ages after I gave up with Amiga. In-fact, I only ever really went to XP on a whim.

I tried XP out "for the heck of it". I don't think I realised at the time that it would be the OS so many people are having trouble breaking free from. I personally thought 98 did everything it needed to when I had it - the same way people think about XP now I guess.

Quote

benJamin wrote:
Personally, when running older games, Linux with Wine is compatible with more games than Windows.  Most of the focus of Wine is making the new Windows games work on Linux (esp. WoW, etc.).

I have a quad-boot (Fedora, Windows, AROS and Amiga Forever(KX Light), and I almost NEVER boot directly into the other partitions.  If I really need to use Windows, I boot it in the VM.


I don't think people realise exactly how much can be done without using Windows. The belief of the situation that Linux doesn't play PC games is also nowhere near as vast as some make out.

I like a lot of old games myself, so Wine sounds excellent.

Quote

Belial6 wrote:
The one thing I would suggest if you decide to dual boot is to get a second hard drive.

You can then use the BIOS boot selector to pick which drive you want to boot to.


The only real thing that I'm worried about is something I came across once when trying Ubuntu:

Whenever I had a SATA and a PATA HDD in at the same time it basically refused to make the GRUB boot area thingy on the SATA drive (which was naturally where I wanted the OS installed).

Not that huge a deal - I could just s*d IDE – kinda hoping they've fixed the bug by now though. If not I'll prolly do it your way. Cheers!

Quote

da9000 wrote:
Fixer dude, your whole conversation is speculation. I don't even see the complication in decision making:

If you've got the computer and you want or feel like installing/running Linux, AROS, or whatever other OS and you CAN, I say do it, just because you CAN.


Thinking about the argument I had with him again, in retrospect, I should have just said that sentence of yours I've highlighted (bold) straight after he went mad at me for mentioning Linux.

It would have saved a lot of time. Unfortunately I have this bad habit of getting into the most stupid of conversations and arguments with my brothers. You know how it is...

Quote
Not trying it, well then, I can see a lot of harm: lost opportunity to learn and expand your knowledge and experience (even negative experiences are helpful: they tell you what not to try next time, or what to improve yourself in next time)

Oh I definitely plan to try it. I ain't going the Vista route and what's the point of having a 64bit machine without a 64bit OS?

It's pretty much a deciding factor for me now I think. Compare the next-gen OSes, and Vista just doesn't quite make the cut.

Quote

Chubbyrain wrote:
I'd stay well away from Vista, which was essentially forced on a user base who didn't want it. Typical Microsoft really. We'll only make DX10 for Vista so in three years you HAVE to buy our product if you want to play games.


Yeh I heard about this; disgusting really.

Still, another reason for me not to migrate to that OS. Not that I would anyway, when navigating Vista there's something about it that I just can't stand!

Quote

koaftder wrote:
Don't worry about what your brother or anybody else has to say about OS choice. People for the most part learn how to use one thing and pretty much stick with it. If somebody who uses windows all the time and doesn't have specific computing needs, linux will probably piss them off even if everything works. My girlfriend has used windows her whole life, and when she for some odd reason runs into a situation where she has to use one of my macs, it buggs her.

She gets caught up on stupid stuff like location of icons and keyboard short cuts. Oh well.


I think you've hit the nail on the head there as far as my brother is concerned.

When someone says I've been taught how to use the computer or know how to use one, what they really mean is they know how to operate Windows. If kids grow up with them, casually using them, then anything else would be like learning a new language I guess.

I still don't understand why most schools and things (in this country) force you to use a commercial OS and office software.
 

Offline FixerTopic starter

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 01:04:53 PM »
@Karlos

LMAO

Do you have brothers? :-D

My brothers and I have got into fist fights over less than this!
 

Offline FixerTopic starter

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 01:12:39 PM »
Quote

seer wrote:
If you want to run a 64bit Windows go for Vista. I've been running it since its release, almost everything runs on it except a few very old games. Most mainstream hardware has support for it. (And no, UAC isn't bothering me at all, I don't have the habit of installing new programs every second..)


I want to go 64bit.

Options I can think of are XP 64bit, Vista and Linux.

I'm not using 64bit XP for reasons that you and others have stated. I don't want to use Vista at all.

It's really just a case now of choosing Linux distros. I'll prolly try Ubuntu out for awhile.
 

Offline FixerTopic starter

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2007, 01:21:51 PM »
Quote

kd7ota wrote:
Finally, a good topic to put in my two cents..  :-)

Honestly, I am VERY impressed with Ubuntu linux. Just about a week or so ago 7.10 came out, and when I tried the live boot, wireless worked!  Everything I threw at it, it did VERY swiftly.  This was on a PC with a 2.4ghz P4.  Heck, even if you have 256mb on linux, it takes you a good distance.


Oh acutally one of my other brothers was very tempted to use Ubuntu on a spare laptop as a dedicated machine.

The only reason he didn't (in the end) was because he couldn't get the wireless working.

If it's sorted now I'll have to mention it to him. Thanks.
 

Offline RW222

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2007, 01:43:05 PM »
Quote

AndrewBell wrote:
Yes, XP has a few more years yet. Many people still use 98, and the signs are that XP could keep going for just as long.


I've been a 98SE user, got it on a couple of machines. But, it's definitely end of the road these days, no more updates for stuff like DivX web player, and other browser plugins. Gotta give these puppies another 256MB of RAM each then install XP.

As an Amiga user, linux looks a lot less scary than it does to a PC (only) user, you can see similarities in the root structure of the disk and it posesses much of the same logic. It has it's equivalents of the devs drawer, the C drawer, the startup-sequence, S. However, I don't think the 64bit version is mature enough yet for a desktop OS, it has the same problem as 64bit 'doze, not enough drivers.

I keep wanting, I keep trying to make linux my main OS, I always get stuck on something though. However, that's quite likely because I try and mess with it too much and am too lazy to go correct my own mistakes, (I keep wanting to feel more involved, and tinker under the hood). Some live CD versions are very good these days and are very functional right off the CD.

Now if your brother is getting angry about it, I'd say he's scared. Scared of being made obsolete, of learning that the way he knows how to do neat stuff isn't really the "right way" just a barely adequate coping strategy to get around microsoft's idea of how people should be forced to do things. Perhaps he's scared of making decisions. Linux gives you a lot of choice, which is why it seems confusing. People who are more comfortable with having decisions made for them by a faceless corporation whose only motive is profit, would naturally get scared and angry when faced with decisions.

Vista, ohhhh vista, yes, MS is going to have to work a miracle with service pack 1. At the moment it's as responsive and productive as windows ME on a 486sx33 with 16MB of RAM, when it's installed on a dual core with a gigabyte or more. Now MS has had a history of bringing lower end and marginally obsolete systems to their knees with each OS release.... but an OS that brings high end and brand new preinstalled systems to thier knees... that's a new one even for them. My wife's laptop, 2Ghz A64, 1GB RAM, preinstalled vista (not the only thing I've tried it on btw) can't run a particular desktop game she likes at full speed. On windows 98SE/XP it runs smooth on anything around 3-400Mhz, on a 233MMX it's choppy.... it's about as choppy on that system with vista. That says to me right there "Vista makes your PC 8-10 times slower." Opening file windows and moving or deleting files takes FOREVER, small files, documents, not multi gig DVD rips. Anyhoo, you can buy the fastest dual cores on the market load it up with RAM and get a user experience that's about like using XP on a 667Mhz coppermine celeron with 128MB of RAM...(or a live CD linux on a P120 with 64MB ;-) )

Anyhoo, make informed decisions, your bro sounds like a victim of FUD,

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Offline Cymric

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 01:49:23 PM »
Quote
Fixer wrote:
He doesn't see the point - he said "Why? Windows works! It's just there, and it does everything you need it to do, including games which Linux can't".

My, his view of the world is so limited. And judging from the fact that he judges a computer system based on how many clicks it takes to accomplish something...

Quote
-- Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?

That's the wrong question. The right questionS are 'Do I need a 64-bit OS?' and 'If I do need something 64-bit, would Linux/Ubuntu be sufficient?'.

To answer, based on your usage patterns: no, you do not need a 64-bit OS, nor a 64-bit CPU, for that matter. This hardware was developed to have the machine cope with lots of memory beyond the 4 GB barrier in a linear fashion, so without the use of paging; as well as grab more instructions from main memory per clock tick so it would run faster. Only people who actually use machine all the time, and consider a load of '1' to be 'rather low' or a memory usage of 4 GB or more to be 'peanuts' will benefit from migrating to this kind of hardware.

The only programs your computer will have to work for are, indeed, the games you plan on playing, but considering that the rate at which new 'kewl' games appear is now measured in the single digit numbers per year, I wouldn't worry about getting the fastest CPU, or that it's not a 64-bit native multiple core device. Memory bandwidth and graphics card performance are far more important bottlenecks for the time being. Less, of course, if you lower your standards for eye candy.

In addition, support for 64-bit drivers is still shaky. People are learning to program good drivers again, and that takes time. Your El Cheapo network or sound card might not be supported in a 64-bits driver, negating much of the advantages of going 64-bits to begin with. Caveat emptor.

Quote
-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)

The question is again wrong; you must ask yourself what you would need Linux for in the first place to make your system dual-boot. If everything you do is handled by XP at the moment, then I wouldn't really bother with Linux. It's more stable and robust than XP, true, but quite frankly, if you don't push your machine to the limit all the time, and stick to single-user usage then XP is pretty solid for regular use too. I've been using Win2K for years now, and the only times it crashed on me were because of flaky hardware. I am still using Linux because some of the programs I need for my work are not available in a Windows-edition, or require me to run all sorts of ixemul-like emulation software, harming performance.

Another reason to go with Linux is that you are free from weird world domination ideas from Microsoft, as well as more or less free from nasty worms, viruses and trojans. However, a double firewall and a good security policy on your machine can turn XP into a formidable bastion already. For regular use, if you know what you are doing...? XP will do just fine.

Quote
-- What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?

Vista is XP On Steroids; all the bad things without any of the good ideas MS had when they were developing this OS. The new minikernel demonstrated by a lead developer the other day is actually an interesting development. Microsoft had to, I think, because Vista brought the company to its knees. If they can pull it off, then there will finally be something elegant coming out of Redmond. It won't be finished until 2010, and by that time your machine will be obsolete to play the games with your brothers anyway.

Then again, who am I kidding. It's Microsoft.

Quote
- Will Vista be dominant, or crash and burn against competitors Linux/Mac?

It will of course be dominant, but not as easily as it used to be. Mac's Leopard is, from what I hear, quite a sexy thing; and Linux isn't sitting still either. Things have improved a LOT since the days of RedHat 6 and Slackware 5.

Quote
- Will Windows XP do for another 5 years?

In 2007, I'm still using Win2K, and the only snag I encountered was with Logitech's Revolution mouse which was Vista-only for no good reason at all. Draw your own conclusions.

Quote
- Is Leopard gonna kick their buts out the desktop market? :crazy:

Perhaps. I doubt it. It will make MS sweat a little bit more, though.

Quote
- How big is the desktop Linux userbase anyway? What gaps in the market has Linux filled?

Noone can tell you exactly. Current estimates run in the tens of millions of users, I believe. It filled gaps in low-cost environments (the $100-computer runs Linux), and excells in small business server situations, where the reliability of Unix can be used at no great cost. It is the staple of the scientific community, for it allows cheap parallel processing at a fraction of the cost of a genuine supercomputer. Currently some city councils are running tests to see if Linux can be used as a full desktop replacement OS---München was the first city to migrate, and Steve 'Fling Them Chairs' Ballmer was so ticked about Linux gaining a foothold that he personally flew to München to offer the council a deal They Indeed Could Refuse. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a few more years.

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- How commercial is Linux?

As commercial as you want it to be. I'm not sure why you ask this.

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Haha. No.
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Offline AJCopland

Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2007, 01:50:43 PM »
I use Linux and Windows XP daily in dual boot, standalone and server configurations so I guess I'm quite used to them all :-D however for getting windows and linux to dual boot this is an excelletn guide and the one I followed the first time: How-tp dual boot XP and Linux

So that'll make your life much easier. I haven't encountered any serious issues with the 64-bit 7.10 version of Ubuntu that I use for the dual boot machine beyond getting flash to work and one audio library for development (programming) that was closed source and only available in 32-bit flavour :/

As for games, no I don't game much on my Linux box except for UT2004 which gets a 5% to 20% framerate improvement under Linux :-D

Windows XP will certainly do for another 5 years or so, at least until Microsoft stop supporting it for businesses. So far I've found every version of Vista to be a complete pig to get used too. Far worse than my initial switch to Linux a few years ago and that was pretty bad.

I don't know what the future of Windos is, but I'm pretty sure that I'll be using some version of it on one of my machines. The rest will be running Linux.

There are games for Linux as well though, they just tend not to be that well known or the market leaders. With the exceptions being the Quake and Unreal Tournament series of games. After that you'll have to investigate something like the WINE project or Cedega (which is a subscription service but supports a lot of windows games under linux).

Theres also a lot of open source games for Linux and absolutely every emulated games system can be found for it :-)

So, I think people are slowly switching away from Windows, not in truly useful numbers but in drips and drabs they're getting the idea that they can get a whole OS for free if they really want it.. and that is a competitive price point ;)

Andy
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Offline Shamus_

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2007, 02:26:46 PM »
Quote

-- Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?


Absolutely. I love linux in all its flavours. Well... Debian still has me a bit perplexed but I enjoy playing with it nonetheless. Ubuntu surprised me with its simplicity.

Quote

-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)


As mentioned above somewhere, it works great as long as Windows is installed first.

Quote

-- What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?


It will continue ahead in leaps and bounds. While there's a small minority heading over to Apple, Linux or whatever, Windows is what new machines come installed with. It will continue to be popular (at least the most widely used), because it's almost everywhere. M$ will have to screw the pooch something awful to lose their market share.

Quote

- Will Vista be dominant, or crash and burn against competitors Linux/Mac?


As above....

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- Will Windows XP do for another 5 years?


Without a doubt. M$ still supports Win2k and it's 8 years old.

Quote

- Is Leopard gonna kick their buts out the desktop market?
Quote


Never used a Mac. I saw a quote years ago (dunno who it was) that said "A Mac is a computer with training wheels that can't be taken off". Hence, I've never bought one. :)

Quote

- How big is the desktop Linux userbase anyway? What gaps in the market has Linux filled?


Pass. No idea.

Quote

- How commercial is Linux?


Have a look at the server market. :) For me, though, I use Windows because it's simple. It does what I want it to.

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-- Is Amiga coming back to take them all out? Lol


*cough* I've been waiting (as have most people here) for 15 years to hear something positive. No news as yet. *sigh*
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Offline kd7ota

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2007, 04:56:55 PM »
@Fixer

As far as I know, Ubuntu 7.04 didnt have the wireless integraded in the OS, but when version 7.10 came out, they did.

You can try it on the live boot and see what all hardware it already installed for.  The only thing for sure it will not install during the live boot is the graphics drivers.  Sound, USB, wireless cards, etc should be preloaded if it has the drivers.


Eck! Now I want to run home now and get it installed on my shuttle machine.  :-D
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Offline Tomas

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2007, 05:15:58 PM »
Quote
You can try it on the live boot and see what all hardware it already installed for. The only thing for sure it will not install during the live boot is the graphics drivers. Sound, USB, wireless cards, etc should be preloaded if it has the drivers.

Odd, because i can swear my old 6.10 version did.. It even had a gui for setting up your wireless card.
 

Offline Tomas

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2007, 05:19:46 PM »
Quote
-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)

It actually does good as a first OS.
I use ubuntu linux 90% of the time and only boot windows when i feel like playing windows games.

Your brother seems to judge the OS based on a version he tried ages ago, even though linux has matured alot and the fact that the experience changes depending on your choice of distro.
 

Offline kd7ota

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2007, 05:46:35 PM »
Quote

Tomas wrote:
Quote
You can try it on the live boot and see what all hardware it already installed for. The only thing for sure it will not install during the live boot is the graphics drivers. Sound, USB, wireless cards, etc should be preloaded if it has the drivers.

Odd, because i can swear my old 6.10 version did.. It even had a gui for setting up your wireless card.


I may be wrong too.  Maybe since it knew that the wireless worked with the other card I had in, it did it.  :-)

Think the card I had in it before just wasnt supported.  The wireless card I have now is a TP-Link 54mbit.
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Offline gdanko

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2007, 06:04:43 PM »
Quote
-- Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?


Absolutely. I use it everyday in an office environment and at home.

Quote
-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)


A better primary OS. Windows is nothing but an inconvenience to me.

Quote
-- What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?


Hopefully bleak. They are losing ground on a daily basis with more people migrating to OS X/Ubuntu

Quote
-- Will Vista be dominant, or crash and burn against competitors Linux/Mac?


MS peddles to accounting types, not technical types. The accounting types then mandate these standards. I've seen this happen personally. Vista won't be dominant because it's utter crap, but Windows won't ever be completely gone. Though even our Windows admin at work uses Ubuntu at home so who knows? :)

Quote
-- Will Windows XP do for another 5 years?

If I had to use Windows I'd use 2000.. so I guess it may work.

Quote
-- Is Leopard gonna kick their buts out the desktop market?


Technically yes.. but the problem is, people are afraid to switch. My wife used my Mac Mini for about a month. She admitted it was faster and less problematic but since MS made Office work somewhat differently on the MacOS she insisted on going back to XP. Why? She didn't want to spend time re-learning a few things even if it meant saving headaches down the road.

Quote
-- How big is the desktop Linux userbase anyway? What gaps in the market has Linux filled?


It's small but growing, especially with distros like Ubuntu who have gone to great lengths to make a pleasant desktop experience. We have a lot of OS X/Ubuntu users at my office.

Quote
-- How commercial is Linux?


I do not understand the question

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-- Is Amiga coming back to take them all out? Lol


Not with Bill at the helm
 

Offline Trev

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2007, 06:32:23 PM »
My two cents...

-- Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?

It depends on your needs and the level of interopibility you expect. You'll run into the same issues on 64-bit Linux that you'll run into on 64-bit Windows--the same issues that have plagued all processor transitions: hardware support, assumptions about the size of 'int,' etc. Unless you plan on specifically taking advantage of your 64-bit processor, stick with 32-bit. The transition is a bit easier in Linux, as 64-bit varieties have been available for quite some time, e.g. Alpha and Sparc (sort of). Very few Windows applications, server products included, are written to take advantage of a 64-bit architecture.

-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)

Assuming it's set up correctly, you won't have any issues at all.

-- What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?

Windows will continue to dominate the market for the foreseeable future. Not everyone realizes this, but Windows wasn't Microsoft's first choice in operating system advancement; however, Windows 3.0 outsold OS/2 millions to one, and the market itself made the decision to stick with Windows a simple one.

-- Will Vista be dominant, or crash and burn against competitors Linux/Mac?

In the consumer desktop space, Linux isn't a serious competitor. OS X is fun, but you have to drink Apple's Kool-Aid to play. Apple's laptop market share is steadily increasing, but I think Boot Camp, Parallels, and now VMware have had a lot to do with that. I love my MacBook Pro, but I run Windows more often than I run OS X.

-- Will Windows XP do for another 5 years?

Microsoft will continue to support Windows XP until the next major release of Windows, i.e. the one after Vista. They may, however, choose to cheat and pull another Windows Server 2003 R2 type release (in which support for Windows 2000 was discontinued). As has been noted, sales of Windows XP will end sooner rather than later, but it's support that's the primary concern. As long as there are enough Windows XP users in the marketplace, and there will be for quite some time, hardware and software vendors will continue to support Windows XP as well.

-- Is Leopard gonna kick their buts out the desktop market?

Apple's computer products are still a niche market, regardless of what Apple would have us believe. It's a good thing the iPod rules the portable music player market. Without it, there'd be no Apple.

-- How big is the desktop Linux userbase anyway? What gaps in the market has Linux filled?

I think the numbers are exagerated, as they tend to be based on downloads of distributions and not an actual installed base. Linux is the swiss army knife of operating systems. It does many, many things very well, but very few distributions do those things out of the box. Expect perceived desktop performance to continue to decline as more and more focus shifts towards the server market.

-- How commercial is Linux?

In the server market, very commercial. Novell and Red Hat are doing quite well selling support contracts. In the desktop market, not so much.

-- Is Amiga coming back to take them all out Lol

You're right, that question was a laugh. ;-)

EDIT

Speaking to the technical aspects of Windows and Linux, it's a toss. Most of the stability issues in Windows are the result of poorly written third-party device drivers. And like anything else, operating systems are only as good as the person using them.

Most of us here really enjoy playing with different operating systems; however, I run Windows 99% of the time. If I need to do *nixy stuff, I use Cygwin or Microsoft's Windows Services for UNIX. That way, I can still play Bioshock--kick ass game, by the way--or do whatever else I want to do that requires Windows.

Trev
 

Offline nilix

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Re: The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)
« Reply #29 from previous page: October 28, 2007, 07:22:06 PM »
http://www.reactos.org

An open Source version of Windows XP

opensource and windows compatible I WIN!

 :-D  :lol:
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