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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: danbeaver on November 16, 2013, 03:45:04 AM
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There is a rumor in the German forums that the UltimatePPC (http://www.ultimateppc.nl) is nearing completion and release!
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Link to forum please?
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@danbeaver
Do you have a link to the German forum that mentioned this please?
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There is a rumor in the German forums that the UltimatePPC (http://www.ultimateppc.nl) is nearing completion and release!
Shpill da beanz or I flame ya!
But seriously, we need info. You can't just drop that on us, we need links for our German speaking members to translate for us. :D
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Must be a secret! :)
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Must be a secret! :)
:) I want two of these boards please santa.
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Isn't this the PPC accelerator that uses a CPU that is binary incompatible with CPUs used in existing accelerators and motherboards?
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Isn't this the PPC accelerator that uses a CPU that is binary incompatible with CPUs used in existing accelerators and motherboards?
Yes, they claim they are using a Freescale QoriQ P1013, and that is e500v2 based and features a very non-standard floating point unit.
The MorphOS development team has been quoted as saying that no other e500 core except the e500mc would be compatible with that OS.
And it is quite a step from the 603 cores used in Amiga accelerators.
It will be interesting to see how this works.
MorphOS support is very unlikely, as beyond the FPU issue, that would still require RTG.
But Amiga OS4 might be made to work on the device.
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Yes, they claim they are using a Freescale QoriQ P1013, and that is e500v2 based and features a very non-standard floating point unit.
The MorphOS development team has been quoted as saying that no other e500 core except the e500mc would be compatible with that OS.
And it is quite a step from the 603 cores used in Amiga accelerators.
It will be interesting to see how this works.
MorphOS support is very unlikely, as beyond the FPU issue, that would still require RTG.
But Amiga OS4 might be made to work on the device.
If it's binary incompatible with existing software then what's the point? Might as well make an accelerator with an ARM, MIPS, SPARC, AMD64 etc.
I've always hoped that someone with the skills and desire would create an accelerator based on an x86 CPU with a JIT emulation of a 680x0. A fast enough CPU would run rings around the fastest real 68k chip. The same accelerator could probably emulate a PPC faster than any existing B/CSPPC or even this Ultimate PPC card.
P
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Yes, they claim they are using a Freescale QoriQ P1013, and that is e500v2 based and features a very non-standard floating point unit.
The MorphOS development team has been quoted as saying that no other e500 core except the e500mc would be compatible with that OS.
And it is quite a step from the 603 cores used in Amiga accelerators.
It will be interesting to see how this works.
MorphOS support is very unlikely, as beyond the FPU issue, that would still require RTG.
But Amiga OS4 might be made to work on the device.
While I do like having real big fat board for Classics, (few of mine friends yet have it) it would be elephant in Fiat 500.
Also, MorphOS and AMigaOS 4 teams spoke no word of it, without software side, its just piece for museum or AmigaHistory
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It's just another piece of vaporware...
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So, nine days away from the "Amiga30" event in Amsterdam. The "Ultimate PPC" team are on the bill to be there. Taking bets on if there's any significant development on this project? Google tells me nothing...
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Well lets hope they do bring it out for production and fingers crossed that they make a one for the 1200 :)
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I've always hoped that someone with the skills and desire would create an accelerator based on an x86 CPU with a JIT emulation of a 680x0. A fast enough CPU would run rings around the fastest real 68k chip. The same accelerator could probably emulate a PPC faster than any existing B/CSPPC or even this Ultimate PPC card.
Now that sounds interesting, and being x86 it would be cheaper to make. I'm in :-)
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Now that sounds interesting, and being x86 it would be cheaper to make. I'm in :-)
And if you use a intel bay trail that not need big fans for cooling you can even fit it in the trapdoor slot of A500\A1200
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"Isn't this the PPC accelerator that uses a CPU that is binary incompatible with CPUs used in existing accelerators and motherboards?"
IIRC, they considered that and were evaluating using another processor, I think it's in one of the news on their site. No other real news after that, I doubt they'll make it too. Would be great news though if they did...
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Interesting project, but I fail to see the point of it all? The 68040 is nice if it allows classic software to run, but not having a PPC that works with the original PPC and the recent stuff just seems like a lot of work for a card that has zero software support?
Dont get me wrong, this is amazing looking, I just dont see why starting over from a new hardware level is a good idea in a market thats as small as it currently is.
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Dont get me wrong, this is amazing looking, I just dont see why starting over from a new hardware level is a good idea in a market thats as small as it currently is.
I agree. I thought it was a cool idea at first. In my opinion the small market is moving away from PPC as it is - especially the classic market. Don't see the point.
Classic future is in bigger/faster FPGA cores.
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Well, if they wanted to cover the classic 68k market only they wouldn't be making a PPC accelerator in the first place. Have you looked at the prices the Cyberstorm PPC commands ? :)
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I think its cool I guess. IMO...all this new overpriced/underpowered hardware kinda sucks. I'd rather effort (read: more money) be put into bounties for MorphOS/OS4 software to encourage more development. More software = more users.
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Amiga "needs" both hardware and software products!!!
Look at the response Jens has on his usb cards (which needed drivers) and other products.
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Now that sounds interesting, and being x86 it would be cheaper to make. I'm in :-)
I doubt you find usable x86 SoC that is cheaper than PPC.
I bet ultimateppc people have changed P10xx chip to a T10xx. (eur40...50 & 1.4Ghz).
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I doubt you find usable x86 SoC that is cheaper than PPC.
I bet ultimateppc people have changed P10xx chip to a T10xx. (eur40...50 & 1.4Ghz).
Actually, an X86 SoC would be a lot cheaper, but a PPC would make more sense.
And you are right that a T1022 or T1042 would be a likely choice. It would make OS4 or MorphOS support easier as those use the same e5500 core that is used in the processor used in the X5000.
Legacy PPC support? Is that really that important? After all, you are talking about a small handful of applications.
Running OS3.1 apps under OS4.1 with real hardware for apps that directly access specific locations, now that could get interesting.
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Actually, an X86 SoC would be a lot cheaper...
Do you have more info/link at hand?
BayTrail is not as powerfull as desktop x86, but there might be some USD30 component that I have missed. (it has been USD100+ on BOM that I saw)
CherryTrail might be closer to 50% of i7 performance per/Mhz, their initial price was:
Atom x5-8300 PCIe 2.0 x1 (max 1080p OpenGL3.1, max 2GB RAM, USD150...249?)
Atom x5-8500 PCIe 2.0 x2 (max 4k OpenGL3.1, max 8GB RAM, USD250...349?)
Atom x7-8700 PCIe 2.0 x2 (max 4k OpenGL3.1, max 8GB RAM, USD350+?)
So, to me it seems PPC is alot cheaper. (even though might perform only less than what cherrytrail core does)
(PPC prices start from USD30 or so, if cheapest 1Ghz part (without GFX output) is used)
PPC SoC example for ultra low end 1Ghz:
APM82181-SKE1000T USD18,5
http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store/em/EMController/Processors/AMCC/APM82181-SKE1000T/_/R-5000740400286/A-5000740400286/An-0?action=part&catalogId=500201&langId=-1&storeId=500201&listIndex=-1&page=1&rank=1
https://c1170156.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/UK_AMC_APM82181-SKE1000T_DS.pdf
UPDATE:
"The price listed on Z3740 and Z3770 pages on Intel website is respectively $32, and $37."
Still more than cheapest 1Ghz PPC.
But I have no info what is cheapest available intel SoC... and for what real price.
I know that for example some BayTrails (if not all of them) are available only for existing customers. (and not for long)
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@ Kimmok,
Yes, X86 IS a lot cheaper.
I could give you examples using desktop cpus, but they require an additional chipset.
So...here is a four core AMD Soc that runs at 2.4 GHz AND has a built in GPU.
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=50134
$97, is that expensive (especially considering the added value of the gpu)?
And your examples are a little skewed.
You should be comparing SoCs, not whole X86 systems with PPC SoCs.
But...I actually prefer a PPC solution myself.
The chips I'm interested in are low cost derivatives Freescale's e5500 core, the T1022 and T1042.
At only a little over $100, the T1042 could give us a four core system at up to 1.4GHz that would fit very nicely in a board similar to the SAM460.
Those chips would also make awesome PPC accelerators.
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@Iggy
>So...here is a four core AMD Soc that runs at 2.4 GHz AND has a built in GPU. http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=50134 $97, is that expensive (especially considering the added value of the gpu)?
Thanks for link.
It is expensive if someone is "just" building an accelerator.
But if also GPU planned to be used, then it's ok.
(it just might be super hard to implement driver for it, for Amiga environment)
(PPC SoC with simple 2D output cost about USD50. AMD does 3D.
AMD without GPU is USD38 while PPC is about USD18, so PPC is cheaper but with fraction of AMD performance))
>You should be comparing SoCs, not whole X86 systems with PPC SoCs.
I was.
>At only a little over $100, the T1042 could give us a four core system at up to 1.4GHz
Freescale lists:
-USD38 (+ tax and stuff) for T1024 and their material indicate that they might release also single core T1014.
-USD60 (+ tax and stuff) for T1042
As those chips are pin compatible, one should analyze what is target of the accelerator build.
68k CPU emulator would use only one core, AOS4.1 classic uses only one core etc...
But sure, if there is some use for more cores quad core version should be selected because the price difference is so small vs the total price of such accelerator.
Addition, more about the AMD SoC:
https://www.amd.com/Documents/AMDGSeriesSOCProductBrief.pdf
This seem like superb value for money, if you do not need the GPU (2Ghz 38USD):
http://www.semiconductorstore.com/cart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=50128
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@ Kimmok,
I was psyched about the e5500 cored products when they were introduced, but these new chips have a really good price to performance ration.
And they should definitely have better performance than the AMCC cpus currently used by Acube.
I mentioned these to Trevor awhile ago, but they are a little below his target market.
They would be a perfect match for Acube's line though.
And we could use a good, low cost PPC board.
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@thread
looks like the ultimateppc developers have punted on appearing at the amiga 30th anniversary event this weekend in amsterdam. :(
-- eliyahu
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looks like the ultimateppc developers have punted on appearing at the amiga 30th anniversary event this weekend in amsterdam. :(
Heh. Somebody gave them a tag on their name on the event website. Dislike. :(
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So I guess that's what it is indeed, the contents of the OP, a rumor!!!
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So I guess that's what it is indeed, the contents of the OP, a rumor!!!
Ah, more Amiga vaporware.
How shocking! :hammer:
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Ah, more Amiga vaporware.
How shocking! :hammer:
They won't call it vaporware - they'll say they were only developing it for personal use and since a couple of boards were made then you can't call it vaporware ;)
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I'm not really surprised, almost every PPC hardware project ever announced has ended in failure.
AmiJOE
PicassoIV - PowerPPC module
ACK Controls - PPC accelerators
Elbox - SharkPPC
Troika, etc etc .....
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ppc hardware doesnt make any sense when there is nothing to run on it. i wouldnt blame the people behind the project. whoever thought too much into it or advertised is on his own.
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@"almost every PPC hardware project ... has ended in failure"
Let's just say "many Amiga related PPC HW projects ended badly", because there are many succesfull projects as well.
And at the same time one should remember that guys like Edison failed some 11 000 times with his lamp experiments before he succeeded.
(+The faster you fail, the faster it is possible to find the working solution.)
@"ppc hardware doesnt make any sense when there is nothing to run on it"
With original design they could only have run some linux/embedded/RT OS.
+ If they were considering it to function as 68k emulated CPU, then it would have run 68k SW.
If they have changed the SoC, then it might be possible to run a lot of SW with it.
Info refresh:
Official from January: "We have restarted our efforts to get a working demo ready before the Amiga30 event in the Netherlands this summer!"
About the CPU from y2012: "We knew that the FPU in this processor is incompatible with the ones found on older PowerPC boards. Our original plan to fix these incompatibilities in software turns out to have more impact that we had foreseen. For this reason, we will reconsider the choice of PowerPC CPU, while continuing the development work of other important stuff on the current prototype."
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Well that was a shame, I was really looking forward to seeing something tangible.
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Hold on a second, who said they gave up ? Just because they missed their self imposed deadline doesn't mean it's completely abandoned.
Of course, given the success rate of PPC Amiga projects it wouldn't be a surprise, but after all this work, if they were really working on it (some past projects were actually total vaporware) there's a chance they'll continue working on it, albeit slowly.
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They won't call it vaporware - they'll say they were only developing it for personal use and since a couple of boards were made then you can't call it vaporware ;)
Prove "a couple of boards were made", and THEN it isn't BS.
And they didn't claim initially that they were developing it only for their personal use.
In fact, that would be rather pointless as the only soiftware that could easily be ported to it is either OS4 or MorphOS, neither of which is open source, so you would HAVE to make the boards available.
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Prove "a couple of boards were made", and THEN it isn't BS.
There's photos of completed boards on their website. Photoshop, some might claim, I suppose, but why go to all the trouble of assemble boards and then... what? Not write the software to run them? Is that what the holdup was? Of course there's that whole issue of them having chosen a processor that's not compatible with any of the existing PPC software, which just made their job about a million times harder... *sigh* I just don't understand people sometimes. :(
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There's photos of completed boards on their website. Photoshop, some might claim, I suppose, but why go to all the trouble of assemble boards and then... what? Not write the software to run them? Is that what the holdup was? Of course there's that whole issue of them having chosen a processor that's not compatible with any of the existing PPC software, which just made their job about a million times harder... *sigh* I just don't understand people sometimes. :(
Well, I've been watching PPC processors for some time, and the processors that are compatible with the old boards are slowly being eol'd.
Add that to the fact that their is no documentation as to how most were built, well...
So, as I've said before, that leaves OS4 and MorphOS.
The former seems possible since the developers have been willing to support legacy hardware, but the latter is not that likely as many of the MorphOS developers don't even have Amiga hardware anymore.
And legacy PPC apps, are they really that important?
There aren't that many of them, and most can be run by an NG OS.
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And legacy PPC apps, are they really that important?
There aren't that many of them, and most can be run by an NG OS.
I would pay good money for a PPC board that allows my A2000 to run OS4.1.
Yeah, I won't hold my breath. :lol:
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
Well, a CS Mk2 with a PPC dev board attached would probably do it, but it's not very powerfull and it's utterly rare.
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A good solid 68060 board or 68040 board at the fastest clockspeed with onboard RTG, USB, sound and SATA. Heck, even a decent 68030. It must not be easy, or Jens would have made one by now dontcha think? :)
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I would pay good money for a PPC board that allows my A2000 to run OS4.1.
Yeah, I won't hold my breath. :lol:
As an A2000 owner, I would not mind that myself, but then we'd also need a really good RTG card, as we don't have AGA graphics.
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As an A2000 owner, I would not mind that myself, but then we'd also need a really good RTG card, as we don't have AGA graphics.
Just put a PCI slot extension on the CPU card. Nice to dream......
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Just put a PCI slot extension on the CPU card. Nice to dream......
PCI is a lot harder to interface to a 68K than most people realize.
The PT68K4 and PT68K5 boards I was using in the 80s and 90s had ISA slots which are much easier to connect to the 68K bus, but the cards available for that are more primitive.
I have two PCI bridge chips in my parts bins that are suited for use with 68K 040, 060, and earlier PPC cpus. They are still available, but they are quite complex and have some serious software requirements.
I spent a really long time considering building a system using those bridge chips, before desiding that the complexity of the needed design and the lack of decent 040 cpus made it too difficult to bother with considering the alternatives.
The last time I invested that much energy in something, I spent several months reworking a Freescale design to exchange the ALi Northbridge for a more common ATI SB600. While I was in the process of doing the board layouts, the MorphOS team released support for Mac PPC systems. As those ran just as fast or faster than what I was working on, it made continuing rather pointless.
Looking at what Jens has been talking about, makes me think we may soon be experiencing something similar.
What if instead of adding on to your A2000, you could just replace the board and have an 020/030 cpu and AGA graphics, with more memory, and maybe even a few PCI slots?
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"What if instead of adding on to your A2000, you could just replace the board and have an 020/030 cpu and AGA graphics, with more memory, and maybe even a few PCI slots? "
Even better, replace the 68k with an FPGA core...
But this is getting way offtopic :)
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"What if instead of adding on to your A2000, you could just replace the board and have an 020/030 cpu and AGA graphics, with more memory, and maybe even a few PCI slots? "
Even better, replace the 68k with an FPGA core...
But this is getting way offtopic :)
Been wishing for a long time to have very fast 030 or 060 FPGA accelerator with all the goods.
Fast bus, lots of mem, SATA, and maybe some other goods like USB. Throw a couple of ZIII slots for legacy and fly.
Enough for OT
Chris
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"Last minute cancellation by Ultimate PPC team" Amiga 30.
It is obviously another hoax. That is quite a few I'll just deal with them.
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I think its cool I guess. IMO...all this new overpriced/underpowered hardware kinda sucks. I'd rather effort (read: more money) be put into bounties for MorphOS/OS4 software to encourage more development. More software = more users.
Hmmmm - if all new hw is overpriced/underpowered and sucks, then on what machines do you want to run the OS4 software you're voting for?
AFAIK, "old OS4 capable hardware (= PPC equipped classic Amigas)" is even more underpowered and also ovderpriced...