Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Amiga Kit Amiga Store Iridium Banner AMIStore App Store A1200/A600 4xIDE Interface

AuthorTopic: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update  (Read 23343 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 10:48:13 AM »
As I recall I had issues getting the OS3.9 Boing Bag 2 installed (I had to find a missing library first or something), and so I was cautious about installing Boing Bags 3 & 4. As long as my software works I really not bothered that OS3.9 is no longer developed. I definitely not going back to Workbench 3.1, that would be insane! My only guess is that this Workbench 3.1 development is so that Hyperion can negotiate a bundling deal with the Apollo Team for the upcoming Vampire V4 standalone machine otherwise what's the point?
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 01:26:24 PM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833088
So does this mean we will now have a "fork" of AmigaOS 68k at 3.1, so we'll have 3.9 which has to fall the way-side for official updates while 3.1 gets official updates?


If you put it like that, it is a fork of sorts, because it has to be.

To the best of my knowledge the prerequisites for continuing development on the AmigaOS 3.9 project "evaporated" when Haage & Partner and Amiga International either changed their business model or shut down, respectively. More than 15 years have passed since then, and many of the bits and pieces which made up AmigaOS 3.9 have long ceased to be available for further development work. For example, all the updated preferences editors are gone.

By (hypothetically) "rewinding" AmigaOS 4 you will not produce a product which connects straight up to the AmigaOS 3.9 development path, allowing the end-result to be officially supported with further updates and bug fixes.

What we ended up with in the form of the "AmigaOS 3.1.4" project (note: don't get hung up on the "code name", as it might actually change in the future) is a compromise which attempts to bring all the components together which are part of the AmigaOS 3.9 update that are suitable and supportable. It is something in between AmigaOS 3.1 and AmigaOS 3.9, yet also has features which were never available in either of these.
 

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 01:54:15 PM »
But why? Is it to allow the exotic features of the Vampire boards to be fully supported by Workbench 3.1.x developers? I fail to see how the ability to develop for 3.1 going forwards is going to be better for the casual end user than just dusting off 3.9. If you want something up to date then you'd look at OS4.x not this crusty old grey and blue relic surely?
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 03:17:21 PM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;833118
But why?

Because 3.1 is full of bugs and annoyances?

3.9 is out of reach - a lot of the code is not available for maintenance.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 03:28:26 PM »
Will this also include all the updates that were part of "3.X"?
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2017, 03:31:22 PM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;833118
But why? Is it to allow the exotic features of the Vampire boards to be fully supported by Workbench 3.1.x developers? I fail to see how the ability to develop for 3.1 going forwards is going to be better for the casual end user than just dusting off 3.9. If you want something up to date then you'd look at OS4.x not this crusty old grey and blue relic surely?


There is a need for AmigaOS on the 68k platform to be cared for. As helpful as the changes in the AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 updates were, once development ceased it became more difficult to find solutions for bugs and limitations. Patches and reworked operating system components helped to close the gaps, but it should have been easier to achieve these remedies. Source code access, and the ability to build complete and working Kickstart ROM and Workbench disk sets from that source code should deliver that.

Assuming responsibility for solving such problems is what the AmigaOS 3.1.4 update (and the work leading up to it) is all about. While you cannot assume that equivalent functionality to AmigaOS 3.9 could be delivered in the same time frame the AmigaOS 3.5/3.9 updates required, at least we can make a start and listen to user and developer feedback.

Let's see where this is going to take us. It ought to be an improvement over the stagnation of the past 15+ years in the AmigaOS 68k area, as the minimum requirement.
 

Offline AdvancedFollower

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2017, 03:38:03 PM »
Quote from: kolla;833120
Because 3.1 is full of bugs and annoyances?

3.9 is out of reach - a lot of the code is not available for maintenance.

Yeah, why not is a more appropriate question. Lots of people still use 3.x in classic Amigas, emulation etc. Probably way more than use AmigaOS 4.

Don't focus too much on the version number. AmigaOS is very modular. If most components are a higher version in 3.1.4 than 3.9, then which is the most up to date? It's just that 3.9 was already taken, and calling it something like 3.95 would have made it seem like a minor update to 3.9. Think of it as AmigaOS 3.14 (as in fourteen).
 

Offline olsen

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2017, 03:38:30 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;833122
Will this also include all the updates that were part of "3.X"?

Everything that's in the box directly comes from either the original Commodore code base or from material licensed for inclusion in the AmigaOS 3.5/3.9 updates for which Hyperion has a license to use it. All the changes subsequently made to this code are completely home-grown.

There is bound to be functional overlap with the "3.X" code, but as far as I know no code is shared between it and the 3.1.4 update.
 

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2017, 03:45:01 PM »
I look forward to Hyperion striking a deal with the Apollo Team to get this bundled with the stand alone Vampire V4. If not then I cease to be interested. My current OS 3.9 setup works fine. Why mess with it?
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2017, 04:22:39 PM »
I'm just asking in a benign manner, since this seems to be a Vamp/AROS/base system 3.1.X update, and that OS3.5 must be installed over OS3.1, will the installation of OS3.5 break anything in the new OS3.1.X update? Now I know what you might reply with.... NO ONE uses OS3.5 and that, possibly, this new OS3.1.X will not be supported in this manner when installing OS3.5?

Other question is, when this is released, might there be updated components that could manually be copied over to a fresh OS3.5/3.9 installation?

^ Hmmm, just asking.... ^

I love OS3.5 on some machines.
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

Surfing The Web With AMIGA Is Fun Again!
 

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2017, 04:41:16 PM »
@gizmo350

That's a great idea! Hyperion should include an install option to update current OS3.5 or OS3.9 systems in addition to fresh installs. That way it could double as a Vampire V4 install disc or a Classic machine library update disk :cool:
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2017, 04:43:17 PM »
Quote from: BozzerBigD;833128
@gizmo350

That's a great idea! Hyperion should include an install option to update current OS3.5 or OS3.9 systems in addition to fresh installs. That way it could double as a Vampire V4 install disc or a Classic machine library update disk :cool:

Exactly!!! :)
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

Surfing The Web With AMIGA Is Fun Again!
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 06:29:29 PM »
Quote from: gizmo350;833127
I'm just asking in a benign manner, since this seems to be a Vamp/AROS/base system 3.1.X update, and that OS3.5 must be installed over OS3.1, will the installation of OS3.5 break anything in the new OS3.1.X update?
First, one clarification: This project is not related to Vampire. It is for 68K systems, and by that will most likely also work on the vampire, but there are no tools or resources in it that are specific to it. The Os, as it stands, is capable enough to handle hardware extensions of all kinds, provided its makers want to use them.

Second, this will be a self-contained distribution. It is not meant to be "installed on top" of something. This said, all the components that are currently in existance of course work in AmigaOs 3.9, and this is exactly how I use it and test it. It would be sheer folly to break compatibility with existing distributions. However, we don't have sources or licenses for all Os 3.9 components, so in some cases we *need* to go back to older versions that have been updated for additional functionality.

The HDToolBox is such an example: There are currently no resources to re-implement a reaction-based HDToolBox as found in 3.9. There will be, however, a HDToolBox that looks as bad as the 3.1 version (sigh), but it handles big partitions fine, is able to enable the DirectSCSI flag of the FFS, switch on the long-filename support....

So, things work right, but the GUI is not as fancy as it could.


Quote from: gizmo350;833127
Now I know what you might reply with.... NO ONE uses OS3.5 and that, possibly, this new OS3.1.X will not be supported in this manner when installing OS3.5?
It will probably replace many components that came with 3.5 with more modern and updated components. I really don't see why anything in 3.5 should break either.


Quote from: gizmo350;833127
Other question is, when this is released, might there be updated components that could manually be copied over to a fresh OS3.5/3.9 installation?
You should understand that Hyperion will most likely not be able to support such installations, but quite frankly: This is exactly what I am doing here. However, keep care! Not everything 3.9 did will likely be supported by 3.1.4 simply because we do not have sources, or licenses. 3.1.4 will probably come with the 3.1. preferences tools. The Prefs format is documented, so nothing breaks, but some of the extended functionalities of 3.9 will not work due to lack of information, licenses or sources.

To give you an example: 3.9 had a "1:1 GUI" button that rescaled the resize button of windows. This was implemented as part of IPrefs and it *probably* patched up intuition. Now, besides my unwillingness to patch up system componens just for eye candy, the sources of all this stuff is lost, so the feature is lost. A new intuition that implements this natively is out of reach due to incompatibilities we are currently facing with CyberGraphics, and some badly written programs that do not dynamically allocate border space in their windows. (E.g. Workbench & ViNCEd work with rescaled buttons, Kingkong does not... hint, hint...)

So, you get in some cases less functionality (mostly in the eye-candy section) and sometimes more functionality (mostly in the systems layer), such as getting rid of the need to have a 4GB boot partition and getting softlinks.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2017, 06:53:43 PM »
If you want to get rid of KingCON you should simply make it redundant :)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Hyperion announces OS 3.1 update
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2017, 08:01:43 PM »
I would say that adding basic functionality of OS3.1 recognizing larger HDD "out of the box" is a OK choice, but spending more time/resources on it is like asking MS to make updates for Win 3.0 so I can use my USB printer. Considering that MS has BILLIONS and hundred of thousands of people working for them and they made STRATEGIC decision to "move on", why in Amiga environment we have so much resources do continue prolonging dead or... already dead system. There is community of people who is making patches to it and that is great. The same is happening eg. in case of Win 98 with "Service Pack 3" type of ideas.

I would rather see new working network driver/FPU for Tabor (IF people really have to have PPC under the hood for some reason?!), that it is taking like 2 YEARS to develop.

There is plenty of third party updates for OS3.1/3.9 and lately people can buy original ROMs and floppies with OS3.1, to install it on their Amiga. Small update to make life easier (but at the same time 4gb CF card is amazing size for anything Amiga related. I could not use 100Mb of HDD space...

Overall, from my perspective I don't see DIRECTION in development of "Amiga" overall. Scattered projects as far as HW as software goes. Diluting resources, man power will not lead to anything with exception of more frustrations and division of already quite divided environment.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 08:07:10 PM by kreciu »
Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)