Tips on moving to Linux?

[psxphill]

On the second point, bullsh1t. Microsoft give direct incentives for their OS on OEM kit for sure, but they have no reps with black top hats, capes, and stiffly waxed moustaches going around the world sabotaging other products. ALL the major MB manufactures support Linux and provide drivers for most or at a minimum subset of their MBs.

It's not cost effective for an OEM to ship Linux. It limits their hardware selection for a start.

[cgutjahr]

Microsoft [...] have no reps with black top hats, capes, and stiffly waxed moustaches going around the world sabotaging other products.

"The AARD code was a segment of code in a beta release of Microsoft Windows 3.1 that would determine whether Windows was running on MS-DOS or PC DOS, rather than a competing workalike such as DR-DOS, and would result in a cryptic error message in the latter case." (source)

"Electronic greeting card firm Blue Mountain Arts has won another round in its battle with Microsoft Corp. Late Thursday, a Santa Clara County (Calif.) Superior Court issued a preliminary injunction stopping Microsoft from setting up filters in its Outlook Express mail program that treated greeting cards from Blue Mountain as junk mail. " (source)

"In 2002, Be Inc. sued Microsoft claiming that Hitachi had been dissuaded from selling PCs loaded with BeOS, and that Compaq had been pressured not to market an Internet appliance in partnership with Be. [...] The case was eventually settled out of court for $23.25 million with no admission of liability on Microsoft's part." (source)

Microsoft has a long history of "sabotaging other products". I'm not saying they're stopping OEMs from bundling Linux, but I wouldn't make tinfoil hat jokes about somebody who's suggesting they do.

[nicholas]

And on top of that, Linux is making our children gay! I saw it with my own eyes!

Not only gay but Muslim too!

http://www.sabily.org/

[desiv]

It's not cost effective for an OEM to ship Linux. It limits their hardware selection for a start.

Assuming an OEM had to decide to ship Linux on all their motherboards and be compatible with all their products, that might be the case.

But that isn't the case..

It's all about sales and marketing.
If Dell could sell a consumer laptop with Linux on it, but Linux wasn't compatible with their corporate laptop chipset, AND that consumer laptop with Linux sold really well, Dell wouldn't care.  They'd sell it if it sold well.
If it wasn't compatible with all their laser printers, but the laptop still sold well, they'd still sell it.  After all, it's about selling product.

The issue with Linux on OEM machines is simply that they haven't sold well enough.

I think a lot of that is because it has been kind of advertised as a Windows replacement, but it's not.  It's its own OS with its own benefits and drawbacks.

At work, people were psyched when we started to provide iPads for calendar/e-mail and notes.  And then people started getting them and some of them were disappointed.  The iPads didn't run all of their macros in their Excel docs.  They didn't connect (or connect well) to the iSeries...
Fact is, the iPad is great for what it is, but those people wanted a Windows compatible device too.  That project was still a success tho, because the people who were happy were the people who mostly needed e-mail/calendar and notes (i.e. managers, administrators and their assistants).  ;-)

If you want/need Windows, you won't be happy with Linux.
If you want/need a device that can do what Linux can do, you can be happy with it.
Good news is that Linux does a lot that people need and works on a lot of hardware really well.  (Typing this on a DELL XPS M1210)
But it doesn't do everything, and some people just want Windows.
That's OK..

As the market goes more web based, it gets more and more open for Linux (and OSX). And choice is good for everyone.
Heck, Windows Server 2012 has several new features that I think were inspired by the Linux server competition.  I think that's great.  2012 is much better as a result of Linux.  (IMHO)  ;-)

desiv

[persia]

Remember netbooks?  There was a year or two when they were very popular and then they  vanished from the market.  They were initially available with Linux as an option.  There was a story about a woman who was a uni student who accidentally bought a Linux netbook, she said that because it was Linux and she couldn't figure it out she was going to have to drop out of uni and become a prostitute and eventually die in a plague infested port screaming "hello sailor!" or something like that.  I remember that the press make a big deal out of it....

[desiv]

Remember netbooks?  There was a year or two when they were very popular and then they  vanished from the market. .

I always thought that was some of the weirdest marketing around..
There were just small laptops...  

We still have 2 of them, one newer Acer (They still sell them and still sometimes call them Netbooks) and an older Dell Mini 9.

Ironically, even tho I'm a Linux fan, they are both Windows machines..  ;-)
My wife likes the form factor of the "Netbooks", but her photo stuff is mostly Windows.

I do have Linux on the Mini-9 now that she's using the Acer, but I stole the memory from it it for my laptop, so it's waiting for an e-bay order to get back into the running.  ;-)

desiv

[stefcep2]

Very true thats why server market penetration for linux is high. In fact linux is not just great for servers its also great for lightweight embedded devices such as home routers, industrial equipment as well as very popular devices like the Raspberry Pi.

If you want simple toys, it works well.  

As it happens I use a FDT Perimeter made by Ziess every day at work.  It runs an embedded Ubuntu.  I love the fact that the mouse pad stops working or the pointer moves everywhere but where you want it, at random times..reboot, and lose the test data.  Wonderful.

As it also happens we use a custom Linux for our patient record cards, appointments and accounts.  We've discovered a new  feature: press two keys-any two keys, in quick succession and the terminal gets covered in garbage.  F4--> F10-->exit, re-enter your lost data at your earliest convenience.

As it happens we also have an OPTOS UWDS and Canon Fundus Camera that run XP.  Never lost data.  Never needed top re-boot due to a system wobbly.  Not ONCE in  3years

Thats why , just like windows there are different flavours of Linux , eg Red-Hat and Centos for the server and Ubuntu or Mint on the desktop.

They are just eye candy on top a kernel.  The underlying behaviour is the same and not built from the ground up for a desktop.

And the GUI is often inconsistent and poorly thought out.  On out mains system we use a KDE variant.  The task bar has a digital clock in the corner.  Click on it and Calender shows up.  So far so good.  I see all 7 terminals with the calendar showing.  Why?  Umm: "How do I close the it" is the reply.  Well just hit the cross button....there is no cross button!  Click on the desktop?  Nope.  Eventually after random clicking all over the screen and by chance on the digital clock, it closes.  Brain dead design.

Amateur is a very loaded term, it suggests that you are not aware that Linux is a multi-billion dollar industry. It suggests that its not built by paid professionals such as those employed by IBM, RedHat, Canonical and Cisco plus many others. Or perhaps Google who use the Linux kernel as the basis for its operating systems Android and their Desktop ChromeOS. Android has the lions share of the mobile operating system market , greater than iOS and others combined. Thats pretty impressive for what you describe as an "Amateur" os.

Oh please the average user isn't downloading anything made by IBM, Redhat, Cisco.  And a major reason why they choose the Linux kernel-and that's all they're doing- is because they don't have to be held hostage by Microsoft's licensing, and they make billions of dollars "maintaining" the systems they sell.

Most users are not aware that they have Linux as a choice.

Enough do for their to be more using it than actually do.

That is because Microsoft actively penalize OEM manufacturers for offering it as an option. Finally any new version of a desktop oriented version of Linux running on supported hardware eg: Ubuntu , is every bit as capable for every day simple things* without going anywhere near a command line.
* Web browsing, email, word processing, image processing

No, its not every bit as capable.  And you're only one crappy little update from booting up in a full screen command line.  Good luck when that happens

There is actually one other thing thats holding it back , and thats people like you propogating the myth that people seem to think that an operating system that can do all the things above and more is no good for the desktop.

No-on is holding it back.

Its holding itself back.

[stefcep2]

Man, what is the fear of command line and config files in this world.. ;-)

And I'm not talking Linux..
I was just on an interview panel for a Windows "server tech" and most of the applicants seemed afraid of Powershell.
(I love Powershell!!)

Don't get me wrong, GUIs are great.  
One of my favorite parts of the Amiga was the GUI.

But if I can do something faster and more efficiently with text, why wouldn't I want to do that?

When I want to send a quick message to someone, I don't call them or skype them.  I TEXT them..
Sometimes, even today, text is still better!!!


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

desiv

Here is a quote from the same discussion in another forum.

The example of how its easier to do a search in a CLI is faster:

type: find ~ -size 10M

That's why people prefer the CLI

People who don't use CLI often will probably type
find = -size 10M
followed by
find ~ -size=10M
followed by
find ~ -size "10M"
followed by
find = -size "10M"
followed by
find size 10M
followed by
find -size "10M"
followed by
find size 10
then give up and look for a GUI way of doing the same thing.

Commands you use often are easy to remember. Commands that are new or different might not be typed correctly the first time.

In a nutshell, that's what it comes down to.

On amiga, the only times I opened shell was to
1. ed s/startup-sequence
2. ed s/user-startup
3. DMS

And you know what, most times I used DMS, I could never remember when to use "write" or "read".  And don't get me started on all the different command line switches for the all the other archivers out there.  

Who in their right mind would want to remember all of that?

[Bif]

Uh oh.   I can't hep myself.... :griping:


Man, what is the fear of command line and config files in this world.. ;-)

And I'm not talking Linux..
I was just on an interview panel for a Windows "server tech" and most of the applicants seemed afraid of Powershell.
(I love Powershell!!)

Don't get me wrong, GUIs are great.  
One of my favorite parts of the Amiga was the GUI.

But if I can do something faster and more efficiently with text, why wouldn't I want to do that?

When I want to send a quick message to someone, I don't call them or skype them.  I TEXT them..
Sometimes, even today, text is still better!!!


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

desiv

You're ranting at the wrong guy. I love command lines. I've spent 20 years programming for a living. I automate all sorts of stuff with complicated batch files, feel more comfortable finding files via command line than GUI, etc. There are those things GUIs are great for and those things command lines are good for, I take advantage of each as appropriate.

What I was replying to was an earlier post that stated you could not get Linux working at all in many cases without having to drop to the command line to execute some cryptic commands to config something. I think that's a very fair point if it comes to that, and has probably been more true in the past. My latest Linux experience was just plug in USB stick, and use it, no fiddling needed, thus no drop to command line needed to make it work.

[psxphill]

Assuming an OEM had to decide to ship Linux on all their motherboards and be compatible with all their products, that might be the case.
 
But that isn't the case..
 
It's all about sales and marketing.
If Dell could sell a consumer laptop with Linux on it, but Linux wasn't compatible with their corporate laptop chipset, AND that consumer laptop with Linux sold really well, Dell wouldn't care.

They have to spend money to check whether Linux will run on each machine, even if it turns out that they can't. Adding another operating system option will cost money in production, ordering etc. All to support an operating system that they then can't charge you money for, as if they charge the same price then people would likely order it with Windows just in case they ever need it and then install Linux themselves.
 
It might make sense on some servers, which I believe they will ship with Linux (or have shipped in the past). But laptops, desktops, all in ones etc have such a small margin that it's not really cost effective.
 
They could force Windows users to subsidise shipping Linux, but they then wouldn't be competitive with OEMs that only ship Windows.

[gertsy]

"The AARD code was a segment of code in a beta release of Microsoft Windows 3.1 that would determine whether Windows was running on MS-DOS or PC DOS, rather than a competing workalike such as DR-DOS, and would result in a cryptic error message in the latter case." (source)

"Electronic greeting card firm Blue Mountain Arts has won another round in its battle with Microsoft Corp. Late Thursday, a Santa Clara County (Calif.) Superior Court issued a preliminary injunction stopping Microsoft from setting up filters in its Outlook Express mail program that treated greeting cards from Blue Mountain as junk mail. " (source)

"In 2002, Be Inc. sued Microsoft claiming that Hitachi had been dissuaded from selling PCs loaded with BeOS, and that Compaq had been pressured not to market an Internet appliance in partnership with Be. [...] The case was eventually settled out of court for $23.25 million with no admission of liability on Microsoft's part." (source)

Microsoft has a long history of "sabotaging other products". I'm not saying they're stopping OEMs from bundling Linux, but I wouldn't make tinfoil hat jokes about somebody who's suggesting they do.

Long History.  If so I would have though you'd have something more substantial to put forward than a few tenuous items from over 10 years ago.

1. A beta release of Win 3.1 that an over exuberant developer provided certain code for that was NEVER activated in the actual release.
2. A Beta release of Outlook express Spam Filtering that was, again, never released.
3. Microsoft stopping Hitachi from providing a PC with the option to dual boot an alternate OS on a Windows OEM licensed PC, which is against the OEM licence provisions. They did not stop Hitachi from providing the same PCs stand-alone with the (already unfortunately dead) BeOS OS.

IMO, I think we sometimes wish things were different in the IT world than they are today and then look for the tall poppy to blame.  Microsoft are surely not the corner cake shop, they are big business and protect their investment with "competitive" (look up the word) "big business" corporate behaviour.

I see your items and raise you a "Microsoft kept Apple from folding in the late 90's".

[persia]

Ah, found the story, she apparently didn't die in an unknown port city heroine den shouting "hello sailor" but the rest is pretty much true.


http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=9667184&nav=menu1362_2

[cgutjahr]

Long History.  If so I would have though you'd have something more substantial to put forward than a few tenuous items from over 10 years ago.

You're funny - what Desktop Operating System that OEMs might have chosen could Microsoft have sabotaged in the last 10 years?

For more recent examples of that kind of behaviour search the net for "UEFI Secure Boot", which in turn is the second coming of "Trusted Computing" - Google the latter in combination with "Palladium" and "criticism" to learn what the rest of us have to worry about regarding Microsoft even if we never use any MS products.

I see your items and raise you a "Microsoft kept Apple from folding in the late 90's".

Stop the lies! The day that Microsoft 'saved' Apple

I'm not into MS bashing, their "competitive big business corporate behaviour" (I love euphemisms) isn't worse than that of any other IT giant. I wouldn't want to know what Jobs would have done with that kind of market power.

But Microsoft pretty much invented the "reps with black top hats, capes, and stiffly waxed moustaches going around the world sabotaging other products" type, so let's not pretend otherwise.

[desiv]

They have to spend money to check whether Linux will run on each machine, even if it turns out that they can't.

Depending on the support contract, that might or might not be a big deal.  It's also possible they have a large customer who has requested that, so they already have a process.

Adding another operating system option will cost money in production, ordering etc. All to support an operating system that they then can't charge you money for, as if they charge the same price then people would likely order it with Windows just in case they ever need it and then install Linux themselves.

Who said anything about supporting an OS they can't charge money for?  Of course they are going to charge money for it..
Free to them doesn't mean free to the consumer..  ;-)  Of course support costs need to be built in.
Also, adding anything will cost money.  
That means nothing.  It's all about ROI.  If it costs money, but they make more money selling it, they'll do it..
If it costs money, and they don't make money selling it, they won't.
 
It costs them money everytime MS releases a new version of the OS.  Doesn't mean they won't support it...

If/when it appeals to customers, then they will support it, regardless of the "cost" to them.  That is just the cost of doing business..

[desiv]

The example of how its easier to do a search in a CLI is faster..
(includes some CLI mistypes...)

And that is just plain silly.
Of course, there are going to be times that CLI isn't better.
I can't tell you the number of times I've had to go "looking" in my GUI to find the option I want.
Does that mean the GUI is a terrible concept?  Nope...
Just means some things are easier to do certain ways..

My point was never that all CLI commands are always better.  I never said that..
It was that sometimes, CLI is better and it's silly to say "GUI ONLY" the same way it would be silly to say CLI only..

desiv

[RobPotts]

Hi
Well I see 23 pages of Linux or Windows bashing. All I will add is I have used PClinuxOS since 2007, and while duel booting only went into windows a few times, eventually getting rid of windows (only iTunes is missing and if you must you can get it in vbox). It runs very well, with no notable slowdown over the years, and I'm very happy with it.

Cheers
Rob