AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Available To Buy

[Nearly-Right]

Benchmark screenshot

So, what hardware have you got in your Amiga with the Blizzard card?
Is it a tower system or just the PPC card and BVision tucked inside the A1200 case?
Who did the overclocking, and would it be easy enough for most owners to do?

Were there any problems you encountered installing Classic OS4.1 on your system?

Otherwise, most impressive!

[Nearly-Right]

Nearly-Right, it was reported by Harald the new Elbox beta drivers are working in his setup.  He said some colour problems on the Radeon (he didn't specify), but this may mean now that you can use all the Elbox drivers, including the RTL8139 and SB128.  Of course they will be 68K drivers and not PPC native, but they may work.

I got a PM from Harald, with more detail.

I am also awaiting a reply from him, as I asked him a lot more questions, as he has an A1200 with a Mediator, though not the same model as me (mine's a TX, his is an LX) so hopefully I would learn about levels of compatibility with the hardware he's running under Classic OS4.1 than from anywhere else I have found, so far.

He also let me know that the SOLO soundcard he has, showed up as recognised under the hardware running under Classic OS4.1, BUT he didn't get any sound via AHI out of it, so that is not so good.

I am still waiting for someone, anyone, saying they have a SOLO-1 soundcard with the ESS1938S in an A1200 running through AHI under Classic OS4.1, which I have not seen written anywhere confirming it's compatability with Classic OS4.1, especially in an A1200. I believe anyone running such a soundcard has it running in an A4000, and that may only be the ESS1969 chipset anyway, but I'd really like someone to speak up and confirm they have such a soundcard working in an A1200 with a Mediator.

I have NOT bought Classic OS4.1 as yet, as I am still not convinced it is a mature enough OS for any serious use, especially for an A1200.

What's more I got a reply from AmigaKit stating that there will be NO DISCOUNT or UPGRADE from Classic OS4.0 to Classic OS4.1, so for me to consider buying Classic OS4.1 the PCI card compatability has got to be improved dramatically with more PCI cards supported, before I commit to spending the best part of £100 on it.

Hans-Jorg Frieden stated on the Hyperion pages that there is less compatability available as the A1200 does not have a jumper to affect, simple waitstates, which are available on the A4000, which allows greater compatability with Classic OS4.1, that's if I understood his comments correctly.

So, I do not think the playing field is very even for the A1200 compared to the A4000, as most developers seem to be using that for betatesting Classic OS4.1, due to its greater compatability, and it seems much less time has been, or is being, spent on getting the A1200 version of Classic OS4.1 to the same level of compatability IMHO.

Hans-Jorg Frieden (HJF) also said that the PCI library of Elbox's is also asking for a board failure due to the fact that Classic OS4.1 has it's own software/driver method to control the PCI Mediator I/O and that using a 68k version as well as the OS4.1 device will no doubt cause some problems that will either cause early failure of the PCI board or eventual failure of the board, again if I understood his comments correctly.

HJF also said that the Elbox PCI library method was not supported. He has said this before, and basically the PCI library from Elbox would not work with Classic OS4.1, so I'd be interested to know if it does allow the DMA soundcards, and NICs, etc. to actually work under Classic OS4.1.

However, I'm not buying Classic OS4.1 to be the guinea pig to try it out, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who has the OS and has tried it with the DMA cards that are not supported under Classic OS4.1 but are under OS3.9, such as the RTL8139 NIC, and Soundblaster 128 PCI cards, and for that matter any of the cards supported by Elbox, including the Spider USB card.

However, Elbox have not stated the facts for their PCI library update as of yet, but I'd be interested to hear their take on it, so come on Elbox, let's hear your side of the PCI library's development.

I should also add that the  -  New AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Users  -  thread has only 4 pages of comments, wheras this thread has 12 pages already.

Frankly, it does not seem to say a lot for the take-up/purchase of Classic OS4.1, and AmigaKit have not got back to me on the number of people who have bought Classic OS4.1, which I asked them about a few days ago, which is disappointing in many ways.

[Nearly-Right]

Overall, I'm very happy with it. Personally, I wasn't expecting a discounted upgrade from 4.0 as the Amiga commercial software development landscape in my opinion is very different than that of the PC world. This stuff is sold in comparatively minuscule quantities and the developers that write this need supporting. I look at the cost as part upgrade cost and part the cost of making this sort of development still viable which I'm quite happy in paying.

I understand your perspective, and I generally agree with the principle of supporting the people who have bothered to upgrade Classic OS4.x to something that actually works as Classic OS4.0 was supposed to, BUT, so far the OS has not imbued me with confidence to buy it. I wouldn't mind paying the £100 if the support for PCI cards was more comprehensive, and actually worked.

I am waiting for more PCI hardware support, as the comparatively few PCI cards supported don't make it worth transferring from OS3.9, where I can use all my cards compared to OS4.1 where I can use 2 - GFX & LAN - which in my opinion is very poor support for £100 of Classic Amiga OS.

[Nearly-Right]

The cards you mention (realtek 8139 and SB128) are not supported although there is a hack to make the Soundblaster work as a passthrough card.

I am aware of that, but it's not real support for a PCI soundcard is it, unless you are the first user with a SOLO-1 soundcard that has actually got it working in an A1200, so have you?

If so, which ESS chipset is on your SOLO-1 soundcard?

I have OS4.1 Classic running on my A1200 which has Mediator 1200sx (6 slot)

OK, so that's similar to my hardware, but mine's a TX - which accepts all the Radeon supported cards, as far as I am aware that is.

Its working with my Blizzy PPC + 256mb Ram (Upgraded by Stachu to 330mhz)

How much did that cost to get it upgraded to that speed?

I have used it with Radeon 9250 (128mb) and it works great with the 3D Hardware effects

I tested 2 Redeon 9200 256mb and they didn't work though.

Ah, but do the Radeon 9200 cards with 256MB work in the SX under OS3.9?

I have a Realtek 8029 PCI NIC and I go online without any issues, I also have a SB128 but I didn't try the hack yet.

OK, so the 8029 NIC works OK, that's good news, but just out of interest, which A1200 motherboard are you using, and do you have the CC-Reset adapter fitted?

I tested 2x supported SATA PCI cards and had issues with both, drives are seen and I can partition them but when I save changes the system locks up.  I'm going to raise this on the support forums and see if we can get that looked at.

So the SATA cards don't work properly as yet, well not in the A1200s it seems.

Which chipsets are on the SATA cards?

I haven't heard anything about the SATA cards in the A4000 PPC systems, but maybe someone can add that on after this comment, if they have one, and can say which chipset they are using.

Overall the OS is very responsive and runs well on my A1200 but the issue is the apps/games written for it run slow, Mame, GLQuake, PRDoom all run slow as they are coded for 800mhz Sam's etc...

Have you tried any 68k applications using Classic OS4.1?

I think with some apps coded to work with the slower Classic machines it could be a really great OS.

I'm hoping that too, but I'm hanging on for more software and hardware compatability before I commit fully to buying Classic OS4.1, as I'm not prepared to get 'stung' twice

[Nearly-Right]

Even now, over a month after release, Classic OS4.1 having been released about the 17th May 2011, as far as I am aware, and since then, I haven't seen any Classic OS4.1 user say that their A1200 is working with a SOLO-1 soundcard, or SATA card, and some people are still having problems with Radeon cards even though they work under OS3.9 in their Mediator setups.

So far Classic OS4.1 does not seem to be doing much better than Classic OS4.0, unless someone can prove differently. I'd really be interested for someone else to be able to wave the flag of success, but I haven't really seen anything obviously better, as there is very little additional hardware that's supposed to be compatable, but that hardware, in any case, doesn't seem to work in a usable way.

I think some A4000 users are having better times, but the humble A1200 user is not getting much compatability with their PPC hardware. Anyone know differently?

I'd like to know how many people have actually bought Classic OS4.1?

It doesn't seem to be many, as I think a lot were put off by the pitiful Classic OS4.0 release, as I was.

I have not bought Classic OS4.1, as I'm still not convinced Classic OS4.1 is a genuinely useable OS on an A1200 with a Mediator.

There is definitely better hardware information than was ever released about Classic OS4.0, and there has been a lot more help from some of the Betatesters, such as Darren Eveland, but even then, the hardware information is flawed as some of the hardware supposed to be supported just isn't working reliably with Classic OS4.1.

I've been waiting for a few days for someone to come back with a response to my last post to say that the supported hardware for Classic OS4.1 is working in their A1200, but that has not materialised, so I am really beginning to wonder if this release is, in reality any better than Classic OS4.0?

[Nearly-Right]

This lack of further updated information from any Amiga users buying/installing Classic OS4.1 is extremely disheartening.

I'm not buying it as I bought Classic OS4.0, and regretted it, due to the many hardware OS driver support problems, and that's the only time that has happened with any Amiga OS I have paid for.

In fact, it only seems to re-inforce my worst suspicions that Classic OS4.1 is best avoided until there is sufficient headway made for reliability and hardware support that actually works for all the Classic hardware, and more specifically when it relates to the supported PCI hardware, that disappointingly still does not seem to work for all Mediator boards.

[Nearly-Right]

Hi!

Sorry I missed your reply, I don't visit these forums too often.

No problem, appreciate you taking the time to update your progress, or lack of it with regard to Classic OS4.1

The card I bought was a Terratec 128i with ESS Solo-1 Chipset but it never arrived and I had to get a refund via PayPal so yet to test a supported Soundcard with OS4.1 Classic

Darren offered me the opportunity of a SOLO soundcard as he says a dealer near to his place has a few in stock, but I'm not sure of the exact chipset, as the chipset on the SOLO soundcards I have are ESS1938S, not the ESS1969 which the betatesters seem to have been using, and the ESS1969 chipset seem to be like hensteeth to acquire. If you're still after a SOLO soundcard, then you might ask Darren if he can get you one from his local computer hardware shop.

I cannot think of any dealer with these old soundcards for sale. I've spotted the occasional one on ebay, but the supply of SOLO - Terratec 128i soundcards that Vesalia were selling a good while ago, seems to have dried up.

I bought another Mediator, an LT4 and it has the same issues as my SX, I'm going to report them via the official OS4.1 support Forums.

So, that's the problem regarding the Radeon cards is it?

I bought the Blizzy already upgraded for £600

Do you know what components have been modified to the Blizzard?

Nope, although detected by PCI Info they cause a crash if you try to open a screen.  I don't think these cards I bought were supported versions.

I also tested the radeon 9200 256mb in my friends TX and it didn't work.

That's not good compatability of hardware on Elbox's part, selling such cards that won't even work under OS3.9. if I understand you correctly

I have a FastATA so it has its own reset header.  My Motherboard is 1D4

OK, so you've the built-in CC-reset, like I have with my Fast-ATA. The 1D4 A1200 motherboard has the reputation of having the most problems with timing if I'm not mistaken, but I suppose you know that already, and maybe you've had that fixed already?

At least not for me

Not good news. I just hope you can get Carl Moppett to give you some clue as to how to get it working in an A1200.

I have a Sil3114 SATA card, just in case I buy Classic OS4.1, but it's looking more, and more likely that I won't, at least not for the moment, as the hardware situation hasn't been sorted out as yet. That is very important to me, and I'm not spending £100 to get frustrated with all the incompatabilities, lockups, etc., like I did with Classic OS4.0. I'll just wait, and see if it gets sorted out. I just feel sorry for people like you who've stumped up the cash, and are just getting bogged down with problems, which the OS should never have been released with. If it had been properly bug, and hardware tested I suppose it wouldn't have these problems, but I don't feel enough trouble has been taken to ensure what hardware was supposed to be supported, actually had been tested in as various a set of machines as possible to ensure really good compatability, but your troubles are bearing that scenario out, as I suspected, but I did actually hope I'd be proven wrong.

sii3512 2 port and sii3114 4 Port

OK, as I mentioned I have the Sil3114, so I'll wait to see how you get on with that hardware to get it working under Classic OS4.1.

Darren Everland is using a 3512 SATA card in his A4000 and he says Carl Moppett has it working in an A1200, hopefully I can get some help via the official support forum

I've got to say, I would like to know who has tested which hardware, and in particular the SOLO and SATA cards, and with which chipsets, and in which machines, to find out which betatesters can offer further advice on a specific hardware setup to find someone with as similar a machine as mine, and I'm sure you'd feel the same too.

No

I'm surprised you've not tried any other 68k software, or have you not had the Classic OS4.1 system running very much/stably/at all as yet?

[Nearly-Right]

i can't even imagine what you do when you need a new car or a new flat! i wouldn't be your dealer :-/

Well I'm not in the market for a new car or a new flat, just a Classic Amiga OS4.1 that's supposed to just do 'what it says on the tin'.

But by all the reports I've seen about Classic OS4.1 buying an equivalent new car would be be like accepting as OK a new car with a missing windscreen.

If you can't see the flaws in the OS then I feel sorry for you.

[Nearly-Right]

I have got the sata raid card working under os4.1 on the A4000 mediator with no trouble so far. its a silicon image sil3114 chip (actual # is sil3114ctu) and i got it off ebay for $17usd here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290574197080&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I got one, which is a 4 port card, from the link below, but mine cost a little less, and came boxed with 2 serial leads, and a driver CD for Windows.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180679640079

i am using it with a sata to cf adapter and 4 gig transcend 133x card so far for testing. so far so good, card went in and was recognized right off and showed up in hd.From initial quick and dirty tests,seems this thing uses alot of cpu time copying to/from its drive but this might be my imagination. seems the system gets sluggish- it could be i havent configged something right. It is NOT bootable supposedly but i wonder if there was a way to get the pci lib and drivers into the deneb flash it might be?

I see your SATA card is a 4 port card. I'm glad to hear someone is using that chipset of SATA card successfully, even though it's maybe slightly limited, but basically that's great news, my only reservation is that you are using it in an A4000, which is better supported/more compatible with Classic OS4.1 than the A1200 version as there seems to be no way to implement wait states, which maybe one of the problems with compatability, but I'd like to hear from Carl Moppett as he is supposed to have a SATA card working in his A1200 Classic OS4.1 setup.

the sapphire radeon 9250 128MB i use was also new from ebay for about $22..and supports 5v and 3.3v with no mods.

I am not sure if it's only A1200 users who are having problems with the latest Radeon cards from Elbox, or if there is some compatability with Radeon cards in the A1200 geneerally, but I'm looking for some reliability from the betatesters, and more reports from users with Classic OS4.1 that they are running a Radeon card in their Classic OS4.1 setups without any issues. That's what I'd like to hear.

i have a ess solo sound card coming from ebay,its a 1938 chipset if i recall,i will report on it as soon as it arrives.

OK, thanks, I'll look forward to that update, but it will be tempered with the fact that you're using an A4000, not an A1200 which is what my system would be running on.

I have the same SOLO soundcards with the same ESS1938S chipsets, but my setup would be an A1200 with 240MHz PPC card, and a Mediator TX with a Radeon 9200 256MB. That's if I ever get Classic OS4.1, which will happen once enough current users give a better overall picture of hardware that's supposed to be compatible, actually doing just that.

Proper fully functioning compatibility is the key feature I am waiting to hear about.

[Nearly-Right]

Hi Nearly-Right, I have some Ethernet speed tests done if you are interested:

http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/07/ethernet-adapter-speeds-amigaos-3-9-and-amigaos-4-1-classic/

Shows you the difference between the RTL 8029, RTL 8139...

OK, checked those out, and as others have commented, interesting results, and seems to bear out what you've said about the not so noticeable speed increase of a should-be-faster RTL8139 NIC over the RTL8029 NIC.

Is there a confirmation on anyone actually being able to use a SOLO soundcard in an A1200 under Classic OS4.1?

Another user has successfully used a Sil3114 4 port SATA card, but in an A4000, but I have an A1200, and need to know that such a card will work in an A1200 running Classic OS4.1, so can you confirm it is usable in an A1200?

Anything sorted out with the problematic Radeon cards under Classic OS4.1, the latest ones from Elbox?

Any news on a working driver for the Blizzard SCSI as yet?

Has anyone reported back, who has been sent the version 10.x of the pci.library for the Mediator, as to whether it allows any more of the original PCI hardware supported under OS3.9 to actually function under Classic OS4.1?

I believe HJF has given this method of accessing the PCI system on a Mediator the 'thumbs-down', but is there any way to implement/incorporate such a driver directly into the Classic OS4.x without clashing with the PPC OS PCI driver/sub-system?

[Nearly-Right]

I'm just wondering about the SATA PCI RAID CARD (4-PORT) that AmigaKit are now selling for use in a Mediator PCI Busboard with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic as to whether it has been tested in an A1200 Mediator TX/LT/SX or other variant, running the Classic PPC OS4.1 system?

Has anyone bought this card from AmigaKit to know which chipset the card actually has on it?

[Nearly-Right]

Carl Moppett and several other beta testers had SOLO-1 cards working on A1200 systems.  I can tell you though, the SOLO-1 is a very "heavy" card on the PCI bus.

While you don't see it in the CPU usage any worse than Paula, it "feels" like it slows the system down because it's PCI Bus utilization seems to be very high.

Why has that factor not been made crystal clear before now?

Who would want a system that just doesn't respond well, merely due to installing a PCI soundcard!

Never mind the problems of getting it working, when you do, it seems anyone who does will regret it !!!!

What sort of improvement to an OS is that, the benefit of a soundcard, but a multi-tasking operating system that won't operate as it should.

And yes, we worked with the developer to optimize the driver as much as we could, but it didn't improve it much.

If I remember correctly, the SOLO soundcard was released when 486 PC systems were still available, Microsoft Windows 95 & NT, so it would have been a card that worked in a slower PC system, and even now it can't be made to work invisibly/unnoticeably &/or better and faster in a more multi-tasking operating environment with a faster PPC CPU. Something seems not quite right there.

My recommendation is to use Paula sound, or if you want, route Paula through a Soundblaster 128 card which some users have successfully done and they say it sounds better.

That's it, let's have our PCI Mediator boards useful for just Vision, Internet, SATA but not sound, now we're cookin' !!

But Paula can sound quite good too

I had Paula when I had no choice and before the Mediator came along, but now I should revert back to it, because there's basically no soundcard support, DUH!!

That's the sort of backwards step I'm not really sure is of benefit to anyone prepared to pay £100 for a partially non-operating system.

- if you put a good set of speakers and an AMP connected to Paula, it can sound fantastic and is the lowest CPU-usage solution.

Wow, that's great, but what about the recording facilities that a soundcard offers that the basic Paula chip doesn't offer?

It's like making excuses because the underlying kernel doesn't work to accomodate the Classic hardware to allow a hybrid form of DMA that most PCI cards seem to need.

The Mediator was around long before any Classic OS4.x was released. So it's not like its method of operating was not known about as Elbox are on the betatesters list with Hyperion, so that 'hack' could have been incorporated/modified to make it system legal, and blend into the OS, or a workaround implemented and supported, if that's possible, so that Elbox could offer more PCI support to Hyperion for use with Classic OS4.x.

I wouldn't get hung up on the SOLO-1 either.  Yes, you can play full quality 16-bit stereo sound out of it, but there is a CPU usage penalty.

Yes, why bother with a soundcard, but let's shout out out that the SOLO card is supported and will work in the OS, but not tell the intended customer that you'll find it slows your already low-horsepowered system down so much that you'll regret buying it, both the soundcard and the Classic OS4.1.

The guide for using a Soundblaster 128 routed through Paula is here:

http://www.hd-zone.com/2011/06/using-a-soundblaster-128-in-amigaos-4-x-classic/

Seen that, but I have a Soundblaster Live card working in my Mediator TX under OS3.9 that allows 16 bit sound, and doesn't slow my system down in a noticeable way, and it's only using the slower 68k chip. What's more, while that's working I've Blizzard SCSI, and an Adaptec SCSI card, Spider USB card, and Radeon 9200 256MB, and Voodoo 3 3000 16MB card - YES, 2 graphics cards, so I can choose which I want to use, and also get the benefit from the Radeon's on-board RAM being added to my system RAM so I've got almost 1/2 GB of FastRAM, for when I do large detailed scans, and the system multi-tasks great.

That's the power of PCI in a Classic Amiga system, not this barely supported piece of software called Classic OS4.1, that doesn't support even the basics of PCI hardware - SOUND.

But hey, guess what, if you spend £100 you can upgrade to what appears to be the very first backward stepped Amiga OS, brilliant .... NOT

I appreciate you being helpful with all the support you've given to the latest Classic OS4.1, and I really mean that. I also am grateful for you being honest about the hardware, and its limitations, but frankly this is not a good feature of the somewhat limited or as I like to call it a non-Operating system.

AmigaKit does list a SATA 4 port card that works with AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.  Follow up with them for A1200 support:  http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1042

I've already asked them, in this thread, and via their own website support forum, and email/contacts, but I haven't had a reply from them as yet.

It's on the radar for testing this, but it may be that those cards will never work. The Sapphire card has been tested and is known to work.  They pop up on eBay frequently.  One is here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAPPHIRE-RADEON-9250-PCI-64MB-64-BIT-DVI-VGA-TV-/170651814174?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item27bba4091e#ht_857wt_1139

I've already got one, or maybe even 2 or 4 of those Sapphire 9250 cards, but I'm hoping my Radeon 9200 256MB card will work, as it is one of the older versions of those cards, so from what you've said I'm optimistic - but I haven't committed to Classic OS4.1 as yet, as I'm still not convinced it's worth it.

To explain my current dilemma about buying, or at this stage, not buying Classic OS4.1, I recently bought an ASUS A7V8X motherboard for £4, with an AMD Athlon AXDA2800DKV4D CPU, and I already have Amiga OS XL/Amithlon so I can either run that and get a much faster Amiga system using that, or I can install AROS and get a fast system on that same board, and have to pay nothing more, though I'd probably donate an amount, as that seems only fair, so there's no incentive to change to Classic OS4.1 with those options.

Unless the hardware (Mediator PCI) gets better supported under Classic OS4.1 I'll be staying with OS3.9, as it seems it will support much more functionality than I'd ever get with Classic OS4.1 as it stands at present.

I'm having to write this message via my Windows XP PC, as IBrowse, my favourite Amiga browser has not been updated, as I'd hoped it would, and so the display under Classic browsers is not so well presented with modern web systems. So I use Firefox, which is the next best browser IMHO, well in fact it may even be a lot better than IBrowse overall, seeing as development with IBrowse has been inactive for sometime now, and to all intents and purposes seems to have been abandoned.

Even then my Windows system cost me £20 for the OS (XP Pro), and £10 for the Motherboard, and £5 for the CPU, with some RAM already on board (1GB). In total my PC setup cost me about half the cost of what Amiga Classic OS4.1 would cost me if I was to pay for it, but it's not got the functionality I need, it's as simple as that - the figures just don't add up to make it economical or ergonomical for me to take the plunge and buy Classic OS4.1.

I really dislike the idea of not buying Classic OS4.x for the Amiga, but I just don't see any benefit at this stage.

Come up with the goods - functionality/compatability/stability, PCI hardware support, and I'd most probably decide to buy Classic OS4.1, but it's a long way off that at present IMHO.

Not as of yet.  The developer that has volunteered to work on it is still busy as far as I know.

OK that's understood, but that's another factor not to buy Classic OS4.1 - no Blizzard SCSI support.

Not that I have seen, other than some  users have the Radeon working with Elbox's driver.  However you lose 3D support and compositing and access to all of the Radeon's memory.

That's something I'm still not sure is usable in Classic OS4.1 - can the RAM on board the Radeon be mapped into the system FastRAM, as it can be using OS3.9 and Elbox's pci.library? So a Blizzard with a fully populated RAM of 256MB, can add some or most of the RAM to make it up to virtually 1/2GB of FastRAM under Classic OS4.1.

It's still a 68k driver and not properly written to use AmigaOS 4.1's PCI sub-system - it uses it's own, so it's not compatible with the above mentioned features.

Not without re-doing kernel support and the entire PCI sub-system and memory arrangement which I don't think is going to happen. (The Mediator is NOT a DMA device in itself).

That I am already all too familar with - no HACKs allowed.

I just want to say that I appreciate your questions and critiques of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, but you primarily compare it against AmigaOS 4.0 which I don't think is fair,

So tell me, what fundamentally has changed in Classic OS4.1 compared to Classic OS4.0?

Because, quite frankly I still see it as an update, an extensive one for the graphics system, but I don't see what other hardware has really been supported, apart from SATA cards, and there seem to be a few workarounds that have to be manually altered by the user once the OS has been installed, such as for the Deneb/Poseidon.

[Nearly-Right]

and also AmigaOS 3.x which has had 20 years of a healthy and active developer community to tweak and optimize it.

Elbox are still committed to the Mediator, and the Amiga, and I, as a user, don't see why their PCI system, cannot be better incorporated into CLASSIC OS4.1 - maybe not OS4.x for other more modern PPC hardware such as the ACube boards, but why not for the Classic Amiga PPC systems, as we are only shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't get the most out of the PCI system that's available for Classic machines.

AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is an entirely new product, with a new kernel, new drivers, new memory system, and has improved and expanded 3D support, only to mention a few things.  In my opinion Hyperion, the developers, and the beta testers have done a superb job on it.

Maybe it's best you see it in action personally from someone in the UK who has it.  And by all means if you are not happy with it don't buy it.

There's no-one in my area that I'm aware of that has a Classic OS4.1 A1200 Mediator system that I could take a peek at to see what it offers. Unfortunately, the polarised workshop view of the videos you've released, which I'm grateful for anyway, don't inspire me enough, as not much new PCI hardware is supported. I would have expected that a standard PC commonly available chipset USB card would have been able to be fitted in the Mediator, and work straight off, and for there to have been updated printer support, and of course better soundcard support.

One has to also consider the size of the available market for this product - it's probably far less than 1000 users.  We have to balance the potential sales with the development costs and feature set.  For my personal view that less than 1000 units will sell, I think it's a very good product for what you get, and it's been stated by Hyperion it will be supported with Update 3 enhancements.

Frankly, if Classic OS4.1 sells to 1000 users then there are 1000 more people with money to throw away in these austere times than I would have thought possible or wise. I'm sticking with spending my money on food as an essential, and not an incomplete OS to keep me warm at night. You're aiming at the faithful, the blind lemming faithful, but no slur intended to you blind lemming faithful out there reading this comment, sorry but that's the way I currently feel about Classic OS4.1.

Software, and updates are of course a good thing, and have to be taken into consideration, but hardware must be supported for an operating system to interface with for it to be useful in the real world, and not just the gaming world.

No new scanner support, no new printer support, no new USB PCI card support, even the soundcard support is a bit 'iffy'. The computing world is moving to USB3, and there should be at least basic USB PCI card support for Amiga OS to stay in touch with the real world, and it's just not delivering what's needed, but the cost of the OS is nicely overpriced. Luvly jubbly.

[Nearly-Right]

From what I understand, the reason for lack of PCI support is that to support the DMA hack would require a lot of extra work which would hold back development of the primary systems (A1,Sam), AND then compromise those systems in the process, all so that about 50 people with Mediators can run their sound card better.
In their position, I'd do exactly the same!

I stated previously that I thought a modified PCI sub-system should have been implemented just for the Classic systems, separate from the ACube and Eyetech hardware, which should have been done at the planning stage, back in 2003, or earlier, when OS4.0 was being worked on. Hyperion said at the early planning stages of OS4 that there would be a version for Classic systems, but frankly it's been poorly implemented, and I feel most of the effort has gone into the ACube boards, and the Classic systems have really been left as an afterthought, rather than as it should have been their primary goal, seeing as it was the Amiga 'faithful' who bought the Phase 5 PPC hardware, which was the reason for the OS to move forward. The words horse and cart come easily to mind in such circumstances.

I appreciate it's annoying but we need to be grateful for what we have, and if it's not right for us, then we shouldn't buy it.... but we should still understand what's actually going on.

Well, it would be nice to know what is specifically going on, as communications has not historically been one of Hyperion's strong points so far.

Every time any OS gets moved forward, intrinsically those things which took advantage of shortcomings will get sacrificed. It's unavoidable. Annoying, yes, but still unavoidable.

No, I don't agree, if the hardware had been planned for, then I feel sure a way could have been found to implement the Mediator operation into the OS4 sub-systems, after all, it's only digital data, and as long as the CPU knows what to do with the data then it can be made to work, it is just that it has been outlawed, ahem 'unsupported' by Hyperion.

So Hyperion, it seems to me, have shot us all in the foot with not 'supporting' the Elbox DMA 'hack' method, and/or not modified a way or supplied code that would allow Elbox's Mediator to function in a way that works under OS4.x.

It's the only PCI hardware that's still supported for the Classic systems, and Hyperion should have made the best use of it for OS4.x but it's been stymied/thwarted/stumped by the intransigence of Hyperion IMHO..

For what it's worth, I have a USB sound card on my classic 4.0 system (would be 4.1 but I'm skint!)

Do you have an A4000 or an A1200 PPC OS4.0 system?

[Nearly-Right]

It must be something specific to the SOLO-1 chipset(s). It works. On A1200 and A4000.

But from what you've said at the expense of the whole system slowing down, so why couldn't some other soundcard be found to work that doesn't slow the system down?

Processing sound even on the fastest 060 Amiga system has always been CPU-intensive.

But not something that was noticeable under OS3.9, at least not for my system. It all seems to work fairly transparently.

DMA is not going to buy you much.

It would allow more PCI cards to be supported that aren't supported at the moment that are under OS3.9, but then that's me harping on about the DMA hack again.

Solo-1 works, SB128 can be used to route sound for a single card solution. Paula works...

OK, so let's just about agree that SOLO cards work, but at a system cost that makes them unusable, from what you've already said. Never mind the DMA software hack of the Mediator under OS3.9, we've got a hardware hack with the SoundBlaster PCI 128 soundcard under Classic OS4.1 that almost beggars belief, so we're basically stuck with Paula.

That's some improvement for Classic OS4.1 you've got there, to be able to support the sound hardware originally made as part of the motherboard hardware. Geee I'm almost stunned in amazement, let me just sit down for a moment while I take all that in, that's outstanding ... well maybe not.

Who's spending 100 pounds? Certainly not you so why are you complaining?

Because there seems to be so very little headway that's been gained from Classic OS4.0 to Classic OS4.1, and certainly not £100 worth. It's basically a slight improvement over Classic OS4.0 from what I've read and seen, and a lot more trouble to set up than it's worth ... as a "totally new OS", the sales pitch doesn't fool me for a moment.

You spent money on AmigaOS 4.0 Classic and if you didn't like it why didn't you ask for a refund?

I did, but I never got a reply from either AmigaKit or ACube, and forget trying to ask Hyperion as they don't take incoming calls/emails. It's a one-way street - pay us, then we forget you.

You can call it whatever you want.  I don't agree with most of what you complain about.  For me I like AmigaOS 4.1 Classic, I use it every day, and it works for what it is.  It's the best version of the OS for me to use on my Classics.  Yes, I still dual boot with AmigaOS 3.9, but for me AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is way better out of the box, supports all the PCI cards I use and performs good enough all things considered.  I am happy with it and content in the fact it will be supported in future AmigaOS updates.

If a more mature version of Classic OS4.x comes along then I may consider it, but this seems to be yet another half-hearted stab at releasing a Classic version of OS4.x that isn't mature enough for release as a commercial OS - never mind a hobby one.

You aren't happy and that's your call.

Agreed

Will be interesting to know if you do or not...

I got a reply from AmigaKit saying their test system of an A1200 with both a Mediator SX and TX both were working with their SATA cards, but AmigaKit never said which chipset is on the SATA cards they are selling. So I'll have to ask again about the chipset, and wait a week or so for a reply it seems.

For IBrowse 2.5 beta, you have to ask the Author/owner of the software if that will ever come out...

Trying to contact or get any information from Stefan Burstroem is like asking Hyperion for some information it seems to me. I might as well talk to the wall.

For AmigaOS 4.1 Classic you add:

Improved bootloader with large table MMU support
Updated kernel offering increased stability in low memory conditions
Support for virtual memory via harddisk paging

This should have been in Classic OS4.0, never mind in Classic OS4.1

ZororRAM and DKB 3128 support as memory pagers

Basically A4000 PPC users only for that hardware.

Improved Mediator support with Radeon 9200 and 9250 using up to 256MB of video memory (correct voltage graphics card required)

That's one improvement, and only available for Mediator users, but the PCI hardware is not taken best advantage of by Classic OS4.1 IMHO.

Support for PCI sound card (ESS SOLO-1 based cards);

Basically it's going to cripple anyone's system who uses it, so why bother, from what you've said, so that's not an improvement really.

Warp3D hardware acceleration support for Radeon, Voodoo 3/4/5 and Cybervision / Blizzardvision PPC (stable beta version for Permedia2-based cards)
DDC automatic monitor detection for Radeon and Voodoo 3
Hardware compositing engine (Radeon only) with software fall-back

All GFX related, nice but a good GFX system does not make the entire OS, and besides which much of this part of the GFX system should have been in Classic OS4.0, which is one of the reasons why this 'release' should be an upgrade for Classic OS4.0 users.

Native FastATA driver support

Good, but Elbox had no more stock of the FastATA for the A1200, and so it's just as well that AmigaKit have organised new stock from them to allow Classic OS4.1 upgraders to add the benefit of this hardware to their system. I saw that fitzsteve had a lot of trouble getting it to work, and he's the only person I've seen on the forums struggling with Classic OS4.1 and getting anywhere, and that took him quite a while to achieve what he did, but I am glad for his sake that you were there to help him through the ordeal.

I really don't like complaining about the shortcomings of Classic OS4.1, and I agree that my complaints are mainly due to aspects of the Mediator that are not taken best advantage of, but surely some PCI USB hardware should have been supported, as it's much more important than PCI SATA.

However, I feel that the Mediator mess is mainly due to the mishandling of the OS by Hyperion. I feel they thought of the Classic hardware as an after-thought, seemingly spending too much of their time developing the OS for the ACube PPC hardware.

We should not forget though that even before Classic OS4.1's release, Classic OS4.0 was Hyperion's BEST-SELLER, but their initial Classic OS4.0 was such a poor release it put off more people and they left the Amiga scene, at least that's the way it seems to me, as I almost left the Amiga at that stage. This release is not much better than Classic OS4.0, from what I've seen, and it seems to be a '817ch' to set up.

Native SATA hard disk support via Silicon Image chipsets

I didn't think that would make it into the release, but I'm glad that it did, and that is one tick for Classic OS4.1, but that's all I see as a real hardware benefit for Classic OS4.1, and so that's about the top and bottom of what's noticeable for me.

I see it as a totally new OS.

Well you might be seeing some improvement, seeing as you've been on the Betatesting team, but I don't see enough to seriously consider it a totally new OS, IMHO.

[Nearly-Right]

I'm not going to read this thread for a while, as I feel it (Classic OS4.1) is a real letdown, both price, features, and usability, and until/if it changes I won't be considering buying it.

It should be an upgrade for Classic OS4.0 users, and it's a disgrace it isn't.

Many of us who bought Classic OS4.0, I dare say, won't forget the awful experience we went through, well I certainly won't, for our cherished computer the Amiga for some considerable time to come.