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Author Topic: Hyperion vs Cloanto  (Read 47497 times)

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Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2018, 09:40:51 PM »
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You are wrong again. You should read the entire court case.

we shouldnt be required to.

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there is no angel and no devil here

i assume that.

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Capitalism at its best.

as long as we, as community, be it plain users or developers/contributors, sanction/tolerate this behavior, or even effectively support it, letting the entities in question cash up upon it, we are co-responsible and it will never end.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2018, 10:44:21 PM »
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as long as we, as community, be it plain users or developers/contributors, sanction/tolerate this behavior, or even effectively support it, letting the entities in question cash up upon it, we are co-responsible and it will never end.

The more I read about all this issues, I really think we all should move to MorphOS/AROS etc. and keep our old Amiga's with max AmigaOS3.9 (some with AOS4.1) and be done with it.

I'm actually getting MorpOS for my iBook G4 :).
Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/FDD-HD
 

Offline maw2k

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Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2018, 04:08:26 AM »
I really think we all should move to MorphOS/AROS etc.

But this is exactly what split Amiga in the first place (the only few ppls which where left to code got split)... not all the TM and Copyright issues ... ppls where impatient and wanted to do their own thing... and now all is even more complicated.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 04:25:18 AM by maw2k »
Be more concerned with your CHARACTER than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your REPUTATION is merely what others think you are.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2018, 10:07:54 AM »
how I see it...

all companies involved understood that the 68k market is the only one you can still earn money (partly because of activities around apollo/vampire). For a long time Cloanto was involved in the 68k market (emulation) and Hyperion in what they call NG based on PPC. Then they included the kickstart roms in 4.X, then they licensed roms and now they offer 3.1.4 with 100% profit because the developers get nothing. So Hyperion more and more moved in the territory of Cloanto and that finally created the dispute. Trying to get trademarks and attacking all others they seem to have created a wave they cannot control anymore and in worst case will kill 4.X. Shit happens I can only say. Ben H. is attorney so he should know what he does...

Regarding the split... yes it is there. If 3.X would be standard and open source (with no "NG") that would have been best (the smaller but very active C64 market is a example) but it is how it is.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2018, 10:24:02 AM »
The problem is that this is a dirty competiion that is fought between two companies by means of lawyers. The situation would be much more managable if this competition would be fought by market means: Whoever has the better product wins. That is the usual way how you approach such problems.

However, it seems, that this would be all too simple to make it happen...

 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2018, 10:31:11 AM »
In IT market unfortunately harming competition not by better products but by lawsuits is very common and happened lots of times (like SAP against Oracle), there were even companies buying other companies just to get means to start lawsuits...

In this small market with only few companies involved the potential harm is even bigger but (in a way) that was always the case in the amiga market...
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2018, 10:39:29 AM »
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The problem is that this is a dirty competiion that is fought between two companies by means of lawyers. The situation would be much more managable if this competition would be fought by market means: Whoever has the better product wins. That is the usual way how you approach such problems.

please do not come up with this free market idealism, you are certainly not being that naive. business is war, remember? and war is politics by other means. isnt that expectable for warring entities to grasp any means (inclusive legal proceedings) at hand to fight each other? the problem is not how its being carried out. the problem is that the entities consider each other aggressor in the first place, so that a conflict arises. dont tell me you have not seen it coming. and if not, you have been warned, havent you?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2018, 10:44:16 AM »
I really think we all should move to MorphOS/AROS etc.

But this is exactly what split Amiga in the first place (the only few ppls which where left to code got split)... not all the TM and Copyright issues ... ppls where impatient and wanted to do their own thing... and now all is even more complicated.

for years it was impossible to contribute to amiga development in any way. it was intentionally blocked to feed the so called "ng amiga". it failed. but in the meantime people had to make their choices. dont blame them for splits.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2018, 11:20:24 AM »
please do not come up with this free market idealism, you are certainly not being that naive. business is war, remember? and war is politics by other means. isnt that expectable for warring entities to grasp any means (inclusive legal proceedings) at hand to fight each other? the problem is not how its being carried out. the problem is that the entities consider each other aggressor in the first place, so that a conflict arises. dont tell me you have not seen it coming. and if not, you have been warned, havent you?

The result of letting Hyperion die would have been that years of development would have been lost. Not a good alternative either. Remember, if Hyperion dies, it does not simplify development. It means that whoever picks up their sources (whoever that may be, even "if") will have to hunt down everyone who could potentially have contributed to it, and would need to check in how far this software could be used as basis for development.

So, just to give you ideas: There is more than just CBM code and my code in the printer device. There are (IIRC) at least two additional authors that also contributed to it in one way or another. Hence, one would need to contact them, check with them which type of agreement they had with Hyperion back then, probably re-negotiate contracts with them...

What is embarrasing is that the income of this work goes into the pockets of lawyers. I do not claim that I need the money, but at least it should be in some way re-invested into the development, and let it be only for infrastructure or servers. Unfortunately, that probably goes for whomever you pay for Amiga these days, even if it would probably be more beneficial for both party just to let this bullshit rest and instead develop good software.

However, I cannot resolve this conflict. I can only contribute with software, and software that is beneficial for users. So, in that respect, mission accomlished.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2018, 11:23:02 AM »
I do not need and use it but respect and thank you from me (even if we sometimes have different views about what is better open source or closed source)

 ;)
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2018, 12:09:23 PM »
The result of letting Hyperion die..

to be honest, i dont feel like it is a matter of my opinion or in my responsibility. no matter whatever me, you, anybody else, think or do, one day they might to choose to simply throw the towel and walk away. and they would be within their right to do so.

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Remember, if Hyperion dies, it does not simplify development.

i think we need to grow ourselves resistible to be blackmailed like this. people here have been told to and are shelling out money for years for stuff they apparently dont need "just to support the platform".. i think it is wrong. and i think it is morally destructive.

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It means that whoever picks up their sources (whoever that may be, even "if") will have to hunt down everyone who could potentially have contributed to it, and would need to check in how far this software could be used as basis for development.

i understand the you are emotionally attached to these sources and are trying to rescue them. but if the partners do not cooperate sometimes one needs to let it go.

im none to tell you what to do. i know there likely will not be legal way to access and build up upon cbm sources. let alone os4 extensions (if there is any value in them for us). as i said i have given up on this long ago. since there already is open source replacement for almost all of this code. it may not be complete or of enough quality in places, but we are not left with nothing to start from scratch.

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However, I cannot resolve this conflict.

sure, neither can any of us. best to stay out of it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 12:10:55 PM by wawrzon »
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2018, 12:24:33 PM »
i understand the you are emotionally attached to these sources and are trying to rescue them. but if the partners do not cooperate sometimes one needs to let it go.
Hold on. I'm not saying that "Hyperion does not cooperate". They did, to the degree necessary to make 3.1.4 happen, which was the goal of the whole story.

Unfortunately, as always in life, things are never easy. One comes to another. After all these claims from Cloanto stating that "3.1.4 violates the spirit of the settlement agreement", it is unfortunately necessary to go to coart with this and clarify the legal situation. Not saying that I like this - I don't. 

A very strange statement, indeed. You write down contracts to make things very precise and clear, and now somebody walks along and claims "no, this wasn't really how it was meant to be". Then, why did you write down the contract in this way in first place, and sign it, if you didn't mean it?

Of course, we all know reasons. Strike down a competitor, nothing more. Legal bullshit.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2018, 12:52:52 PM »
i dont really like to take sides here. i understand that you have placed your bets with one entity and therefore tend to side with them. but look: for many many years this entity has declared complete disinterest for a market share held by another entity. now, probably as result of independent developments in this area and in consequence of of your following initiatives (p96, 3.x update) this market share become increasingly attractive and the entity you allied with started to expand in this area. what have you expected to happen? i mean, you are actively intermediating in licensing of these codes for a while, or at least trying to, you must have been informed about the reality of the situation and the risk involved. this is essential for quality cooperation, id expect.
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2018, 01:14:54 PM »
i dont really like to take sides here. i understand that you have placed your bets with one entity and therefore tend to side with them. but look: for many many years this entity has declared complete disinterest for a market share held by another entity. now, probably as result of independent developments in this area and in consequence of of your following initiatives (p96, 3.x update) this market share become increasingly attractive and the entity you allied with started to expand in this area. what have you expected to happen? i mean, you are actively intermediating in licensing of these codes for a while, or at least trying to, you must have been informed about the reality of the situation and the risk involved. this is essential for quality cooperation, id expect.

No one is taking sides in this case. You need to re-read the open letter to the Amiga Community by Thomas and Olaf to understand that.

Hyperion just happened to give green light to the 3.1.4 project and had sufficient rights to ensure a legal umbrella under which this project could be carried out.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2018, 01:20:36 PM »
it was a contribution to the community

unfortunately the money will not help the community (not even the AmigaOS community) but only feed lawsuits and attorneys...
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: Hyperion vs Cloanto
« Reply #74 from previous page: November 15, 2018, 01:27:57 PM »
it was a contribution to the community

That was the goal, and as Thomas said, it was achieved.  8)