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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga.org site announcements => Topic started by: nineoc on December 28, 2020, 08:02:54 PM

Title: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 28, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
Hello:


Having networking issues between A2000HD, with Wildfire 060, running version 3.5 of the Amiga OS, Older Imac running version 10.11.6 of the Apple OS, and an older generic PC running Windows XP. Network was set up many years ago by experienced Amiga tech, as I am not very tech savvy.



System worked well until our move of 5 years ago. Attempting to look at it now, the Imac shows the Amiga in the network list, but cannot connect to it.



It does not show the PC, and the PC does not show either the Imac or the Amiga.


Win UAE is also installed on the PC, and Explorer is installed on both the Amiga and the PC.



Am attempting to transfer files from the Amiga to the Emulator as a backup in case the Amiga fails.


As stated, I am not very tech savvy, so would appreciate any input as to how to get the systems functional again, if possible.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: TribbleSmasher on December 28, 2020, 08:26:40 PM
My guess is the most modern macOs is looking to connect to the other computers based on modern security protocols and this must fail as you probably never upgraded the Winxp machine or the Amiga since years ago. The macOs has certainly updated everything required.
If you didn't change the physical components of the network (new router? different cabling?) only the software side remains.

You might be able to downgrade the Macs firewall etc to allow legacy networking.
If you got a new router then there might be network settings as well you need to take care off.

Another option is to try and add a simple NAS to your network with open unrestricted access just for sharing files.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 28, 2020, 09:07:35 PM
Thanks for the input. You have raised some good points, eg: there is a new router in the system, so that may play a part in this. In regards to your mention of an NAS, would you care to explain what that is?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: TribbleSmasher on December 28, 2020, 09:15:41 PM
It is a Network Attached Storage. In the most easy case some routers allow e.g. an USB flash drive plugged in  working as said storage. They need some configuration in the routers setup, which way they are secured and accessible and what not.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 28, 2020, 09:44:06 PM
Thank you. Will do some local research into this. :)
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: matt3k on December 29, 2020, 01:35:39 AM
NAS's generally use some flavor of unix and are easy to use SMBFS to attach to it.

They are really cheap also.  I bought a qnap 10 years ago and it still works great.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on December 29, 2020, 08:30:56 AM
@nineoc - it sounds like a fun setup

For the Amiga what Network software are you using, Miami, Roadshow etc? (OS 3.5 has one built in too). Unlike MacOS and Windows you usually have to start it manually.

Something else to look at (if you are connecting to the network) is the IP address of your Amiga: Amiga Explorer on Windows has to have a fixed IP address to talk to the Amiga over TCP/IP. Maybe moving and having a different network means your Amiga is getting a different IP address. Are you able to see what IP address your Amiga is getting (maybe you can log into the router to find this out) and then right-click the Amiga Explorer icon in Windows to see if they match.

Finally (for now) you have to run the Amiga Explorer client on the Amiga to allow Windows to connect to it, so make sure that's running too.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 29, 2020, 04:25:05 PM
Thanks for your interest.

It is a fun setup when it works. Have not networked with it in some time. Not sure about the Network software, thought it was Miami, but have not been able to find it yet. Have a second A2000HD that has been down that is now functional, it may be on there. As for the ip addresses, I have found them for the router, the PC and the Mac, but so far not the Amiga. As for Explorer, I have it running on both the PC and the Amiga. The Amiga is able to acess the internet.

To be continued... ::)

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 29, 2020, 05:10:06 PM
So, found the ip address for the amiga, thank you. BUT...when I attempt to right click on the Explorer icon to compare, nothing happens. Back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on December 29, 2020, 07:05:57 PM
It's great to know that you are able to get online with the Amiga - that will help troubleshooting.

Strange about Amiga Explorer. I get a menu up if I right-click it and I see this in Properties. Does right-click work for other icons in Windows?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 29, 2020, 07:51:32 PM
My apologies, I thought you meant Explorer on the Amiga. It works on the PC, and the IP address conforms. ::)
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 29, 2020, 09:24:34 PM
Miami is installed on the machine.

When double clicking on the icon, which is not on the workbench screen, a popup says:
The assign 'miami' does not exist on your system, indicating that miami was not installed properly. Please install miami before using it, and make sure that the assign 'Miami:' points to your Miami installation directory.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 12:06:17 AM
Info update:

When attempting to 'ping' the Amiga and Mac from the PC, Mac is successful, Amiga is not.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on December 30, 2020, 08:43:53 AM
I wonder if it's using something other than Miami as the TCP/IP stack if Miami gives an error when it's run but you can get onto the Internet (I'm assuming you mean you can get onto web sites or similar).

Have a look in the WBStartup drawer to see which programmes run when you boot up or look at your startup-sequence and user-startup files (in the S Drawer) to se if you can identify what programmes run.

Does your Router have an option to Ping devices through one of the admin pages? If so can you ping the Amiga from there?

From the PC you could also try tracert in a Command Prompt. Format is `tracert <IP address of Amiga>` e.g. tracert 192.168.0.123. This will show how Windows is navigating across the network to try and access the Amiga.

I don't know how knowledgable you are about Amigas & IT in general so apologies if anything above is too simple or complex.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 04:45:07 PM
 I am not very knowledgeable about IT in general, in particular the terminology, so this is very helpful, thank you. Will see how I can navigate through your instructions.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 07:32:37 PM
[quote author=I wonder if it's using something other than Miami as the TCP/IP stack if Miami gives an error when it's run but you can get onto the Internet (I'm assuming you mean you can get onto web sites or similar).

Yes, I can access web sites.

Have a look in the WBStartup drawer to see which programmes run when you boot up or look at your startup-sequence and user-startup files (in the S Drawer) to se if you can identify what programmes run.

All I see in the WBStartup drawer are three icons, Turbospool, Turboptrint and RexxMast, for printing and Arexx.

In the S drawer are many many icons, don't know what I am looking for. Could do a screenshot, if I knew how. Could take a photo?

Does your Router have an option to Ping devices through one of the admin pages? If so can you ping the Amiga from there?

Having difficulty accessing the router, waiting for my ISP to assist.

From the PC you could also try tracert in a Command Prompt. Format is `tracert <IP address of Amiga>` e.g. tracert 192.168.0.123. This will show how Windows is navigating across the network to try and access the Amiga.

Tried tracert, nothing happens. Perhaps my formatting is incorrect.

I don't know how knowledgable you are about Amigas & IT in general so apologies if anything above is too simple or complex.



[/quote]
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 07:35:50 PM
Tried to reply including your last instructions, it did not take. Trying again
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 07:40:21 PM
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Re: Networking issues
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 08:43:53 AM »

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I wonder if it's using something other than Miami as the TCP/IP stack if Miami gives an error when it's run but you can get onto the Internet (I'm assuming you mean you can get onto web sites or similar).

Can access the net.

Have a look in the WBStartup drawer to see which programmes run when you boot up or look at your startup-sequence and user-startup files (in the S Drawer) to se if you can identify what programmes run.

Three icons in drawer that deal with printing and Arexx.

Many,many icons in S drawer, don't know what I am looking for.

Does your Router have an option to Ping devices through one of the admin pages? If so can you ping the Amiga from there?

Unable to access router, waiting for ISP to assist.

From the PC you could also try tracert in a Command Prompt. Format is `tracert <IP address of Amiga>` e.g. tracert 192.168.0.123. This will show how Windows is navigating across the network to try and access the Amiga.

Tried that, did not work, window disappears. Perhaps I am entering incorrectly.

I don't know how knowledgable you are about Amigas & IT in general so apologies if anything above is too simple or complex.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 30, 2020, 07:45:31 PM
Can access the net

Only icons in startup drawe are for printing and Arexx

Many many icons in S drawer, don't know what to look for

Unable to access router, waiting for ISP to assist

Tried tracert, no success, perhaps entering wrong format

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 03:34:15 AM
So, the plot thickens. I now have access to the router, and all the IP addresses. Have been able to ping from the router itself via the mac, and have beenable to connect with everything EXCEPT the Amiga.

Had Explorer running, but not sure if Miami was, or if there is another utility that should be.

To be continued.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on December 31, 2020, 10:35:45 AM
Great - you're starting to get somewhere by being able to access the router. Please can you confirm what you mean that you can connect with everything except the Amiga? Can you Ping the Amiga from the router?

The last thing I want to confirm is that your Amiga 2000 is connected to the router via an Ethernet cable? This might sound obvious but it's possible to connect Amiga to PC via Parallel or Serial link and hook onto the PC's networking capability to access the Internet. The things below apply if you are using Ethernet...

Tracert on Windows: It reads like you have run Tracert straight from the Search/command bar near the Start menu. Instead type CMD in the same way and this will open up a command prompt window which should stay open as you run commands. Run Tracert in there and it will stay open for you to see the output.

Confirming your IP address: As you have Miami installed, even if it's not working properly, there is a command you can use called Miaminetstat which will display information about your Network e.g. confirm your IP address etc. Because your Miami isn't set up properly (it warns about the missing Assign), it might be easier to find the Miaminetstat file and copy it to the C: Directory. Once you have done that open up Shell on the Amiga and just type 'Miaminetstat' whilst online to see what it shows. Attached is a pic of the relevant part of the output on my machine.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 04:32:31 PM
My apologies for not beig specific. In the router control panel, all the computers are listed by name, with the IP Addresses for each one. The only exception is the Amiga, in that it shows the IP Address, but lists the device as unknown. I can ping all the computers except the Amiga.

I have found the Ping command in Miami, but when I attempt to use it, the message reads Unable to open miami.library version 8.

AmiTCP-4.3 is also on thre machine, and I am able to start it, but I do not know its' function. There is also an icon for something called Samba.

All of the computers are connected to the router via an Ethernet cable, and the Amiga is able to access the internet.

I have another old PC running Windows 7 I brought out of storage, and it can ping the other computers, but not the Amiga.

I did run Tracert straight from the Search command. Will try the CMD shortly, as well as the Miaminetstat command and post the results. Thank you for your patience and assistance, it is GREATLY appreciated.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 07:01:43 PM
So: Went the CMD route for the Mac and received the following info: <1ms  <1ms  <1ms   plus the ip address  Trace Complete.

Was unable to connect with the Amiga, message was Request Timed Out.

As for the Miamistat process, copied the icon to the C directory, and opened a Shell. The shell did not look like yours. It defaulted to:

New Shell process 8
8Workbench:>

No matter what combination of words I typed in to access Miamistat, the cli said Unknown command.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 07:04:34 PM
Good Day,

I bet it's an IP issue. New cable modem+new IP, unless you have roadshow there is no DHCP to "auto tune" the IP it must be entered manually. The amiga world, the way it is. cable modems may have an IP like 192.168.1.1 the last number or set is the device number. Computer 1 would have an ending in 002 and so on. The first 3 sets of numbers must be the same, Your computer still has old IP. You must change it in your tcp/ip software.

Chris
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 08:00:35 PM
Hi Chris, and thanks for your input. Most of what you say is over my head.

The modem is relatively new from my ISP, as are the cables, some of which run underground from the media box in my house to my studio where the Amiga is located, so changing them out is impractical at the moment.

I am not familiar with DHCP, nor how to edit the tcp/ip software. This is a complex network and my skill set is not good enough to mess with it. Push comes to shove, I would have to hire someone to check things out, and finding someone in this neck of the woods that is familiar enough with Amiga hard and software is nigh on to impossible.

Am still trying to determine what tcp/ip software the Amiga is using, as it says that Miami is not installed, yet the machine is able to connect with the internet.

I understand what you are saying about device numbers all having the same first three sets, and they all do, including the Amiga. The only difference appears to be the last digits, EG: there are six computers in the network, and in five of them, the last digits are only two numbers and they are sequential, with the exception of the Amiga which has three.

Regards
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 08:15:38 PM
what windoze are you using?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Put a zero in front of the last number and make it the same number of digits.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 08:40:40 PM
Oop's make that 2 digits, IP's are picky.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
one more thing, make sure the gateway on the Amiga is the same as the router's IP.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 09:04:07 PM
Windows is XP

Don't quite follow this:

"Put a zero in front of the last number and make it the same number of digits.

Oop's make that 2 digits, IP's are picky."

EG: if the other machines are numbered   20, 21, 22, etc., and the Amiga is 123, what would I change it to,and how/where?

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
" one more thing, make sure the gateway on the Amiga is the same as the router's IP."

What, where is that?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on December 31, 2020, 11:11:43 PM
in miami or amitcp there are 3 things you need to set. IP, Mask and gateway. It in there on 1 tab or another.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on December 31, 2020, 11:43:02 PM
So, Using Amitcp the Amiga gateway address is the same as the router's address.

What about this?

"Put a zero in front of the last number and make it the same number of digits.

Oop's make that 2 digits, IP's are picky."

EG: if the other machines are numbered   20, 21, 22, etc., and the Amiga is 123, what would I change it to,and how/where?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 01, 2021, 12:40:27 AM
"  EG: there are six computers in the network, and in five of them, the last digits are only two numbers and they are sequential, with the exception of the Amiga which has three. "

"all are 2 digits except amiga", change last digits to 2 digits on Amiga.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 01, 2021, 01:34:01 AM
So:

Thanks for that.

I have been on the telephone with my ISP support and discovered that the ip address that I thought was for the modem is actually just to log into the gui for the modem control panel. The modem has a separate ip address. Silly me.

Looking through the Amitcp configuration utility it appears that the reason for the three digits at the end of the Amiga's ip address is because it is set as static, not dynamic. I don't know if that was the standard of the day. As you may have noticed, I am not familiar with the workings of the Amiga, I used it
for graphics, animation, desktop publishing, etc., and had an Amiga tech who set all these up for me, so I don't know the ins and outs of Amitcp.

To be continued....

 



Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 01, 2021, 02:08:35 AM
Static was standard for the day. For dynamic you need DHCP the for-mentioned seek type program. all computers now days have it and it's plug n play.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 01, 2021, 02:42:59 AM
Thanks for the clarification. Will look at roadshow.

Looking at my modem control panel, it does have the option to reserve a DHCp address, requires manual entry of what is called a MAC address, as well as the IP address, which can end in three digits, choices for both available via drop down menus.

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on January 01, 2021, 02:16:08 PM
The MAC address is the harware address of your network card and is completely unique. It has the format of 6 lots of 2-digit HEX numbers e.g. 6C:71:D9:d9:8A:6B. (It's like the postal address of your house - it's fixed and can't change).

You can see the one for your Windows PC by typing "ipconfig /all" in a Command (DOS) Prompt from Windows.

You also MIGHT be able to get that information from your Router's control panel for your Amiga's network card or sometime's it's on a sticker on the card itself.

I'm just catching up on the thread - is it confirmed you're using AmiTCP? I'm not familiar with that but there might be a command or a section in the software which shows you the MAC address.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 01, 2021, 07:12:56 PM
I have seen those types of numbers in my explorations yesterday.

Yes, it appears that the Amiga is using AmiTCP. i have to deal with some minor household situations today, so will be away from the computer. Will get back to it and review all this ASAP.

Thanks for this and Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 06:03:53 PM
Back at it today, reviewing AmiTCP configurations.  :)
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 06:52:04 PM
Lets go step by step. What is windows running? 8, 10?

Chris
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 06:54:59 PM
PC is running XP.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 06:59:46 PM
Getting back to AmiTCP:

Have photos of each

Have looked at the Configuration setup, and have photos of each screen, if required.

As for procedure:

I first open the Amitcp drawer on the Amiga. There is an icon that says Start AmiTCP, so I click on it.

Next, I click on the Config AmiTCP icon, which allows me to either Install for Real or Pretend to Install. I have been pretending to install as an exercise.

Next window lists several options. Above the options a message reads AmiTCP seems to be already configured, select one of the following, so I choose Modify IP provider configuration.

Next window says select one of the following configuration styles, so I choose Fixed Nework Connection.

Next window says Do you want to keep the current interface, which is “wf_ethernet”, I choose yes.

Next window says Give IP address for the interface wf-ethernet. Current defaukt is 192.168.1.125, which is listed in the Home Network Window of the Modem control panel as belonging to Unknown, which I take to be the Amiga, because when the Amiga is running, Unknown shows as connected, when the Amiga is off, unknown shows as Inactive.

Next window says Give net mask of the network on the interface wf-ethernet. Address of the interface is 192.168.1.125. Give an empty string if you want to bypass this option. I leave the default, as this is just an exercise in familiarity with the process.

Next window says Give the IP address of the default gateway or give an empty string. Current default is 192.168.1.254.

Next window asks if your name server configured static or dynamic? Default is Static.

Next window says Give the Maximum Transfer Unit (MTU) for the interface. 0 represents the interface default (maximum) This is set at zero. Below says Valid range is 0 to 1500

Next window appears to be a summary, says This is the configuration you gave:

Interface: wf-ethernet
IP Address: 192.168.1.125
Netmask: 255.255.255.0
Gateway address: 192.168.1.254
UseBootP: NO
Dynamic Name Servers: NO
MTU:  <default>

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 07:17:47 PM
So, in checking the configuration settings an the Amiga, I see that the subnet mask, default gateway and DNS Server numbers are conforming. The only question marks at the moment have to do with the Amiga's identity on the router control panel and the Amiga IP address. The router sees the Amiga's current IP Address, but shows the word Unknown as the name of the Amiga. I know it is the Amiga because when I turn the Amiga on and off while looking at the router control panel,
Unknown will show as Connected or Inactive appropriately.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 07:21:23 PM
As an addendum to the last post, I do not see where to change the Amiga identity from Unknown to something else. In an article I found on AmiTCP, that identity appears to be set at the time of installation. Have to dig out the AmiTCP manual to see if there is anything there.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 07:29:56 PM
In XP there may be a run command under the windows star key, use that, if not there use the search box, click run, Next type IPCONFIG In the cli that pops up write down IP, Mask and gateway. Next count how many computers are using that device including wifi. The info your provider gave you should do rather than IPCONFIG. In Amitcp make the gateway and mask the same as windows along with the first 3 groups of IP numbers. For the last number take your gateway and add the number of computers you have and round up. So lets say there are 3 computers max, make yours either 010 or10 depending on the original number of digits as Gateway. you want to leave a few numbers between the gateway and last number you use to leave room for another auto device. In this example
192.168.1.1, the last of your first 3 computers should be 004,04 or4, so if you leave some room you make it 010 or10. you should be on at that point.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 07:32:11 PM
What is you gateway and how many computers and cellphones do you have? I will give IP. By the way, I heard long ago that all Amigas have the same Mac address?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 08:59:15 PM
Did IPCONFIG earlier, and IP's Mask, Gateway and AmiTCP all conform.

All computers, except the Amiga have sequential IP Addresses.

Do not use WiFi, do not use cell phone for anything other than phone/camera.

Do not know if all Amiga's have same MAC addresses.

Still do not know how to rename the Amiga from Unknown, or why it can connect to the Internet, but not Network.

Hesitant to make any major changes at the moment as my skill set is insufficient to resolve any accidental issues that may pop up, especially as they are all working, except the Amiga.

Am starting to think that the router's firewall may be interering with the Amiga.

Need to take a step back to review the situation before making any changes. :)
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 09:11:05 PM
So lets check your IP address. What is your gateway?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 09:21:49 PM
Hmm, how did this thread get in "Site Announcements"?
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: TribbleSmasher on January 02, 2021, 10:04:38 PM
You are the last one trying to help so we'll blame you. D)
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 10:17:15 PM
That's a good question, I was wondering that myself. I thought I put it in Hardware Issues and discussions,but I may have messed up. :-\

Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 10:17:43 PM
Ah, just remember, when you point at someone 3 fingers are pointing back at you. Kidding, I hassle with IP's all day at work.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 10:50:09 PM
So, have just changed the Amiga's IP Address, and it shows up in the router's control panel, but the Amiga is still not accessible by any of the computers in the network.

Cannot ping the Amiga from either the PC or the Router.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: TribbleSmasher on January 02, 2021, 11:00:16 PM
Winxp sometimes needs a couple of minutes, or a restart, to recognize network changes.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 02, 2021, 11:06:27 PM
not knowing the numbers it could be IP collision.Unknown, bye.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 02, 2021, 11:13:43 PM
Winxp sometimes needs a couple of minutes, or a restart, to recognize network changes.

Just did a restart, same results. Think I may have to take a different approach to the situation.

Thanks to all who offered assistance, and all the best in the New Year.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: QuikSanz on January 03, 2021, 01:31:44 AM
Last from me, leave port blank, that's nly needed to get to someone else's network.
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: AndyFC on January 03, 2021, 08:33:03 AM
It's possible it could be caused by your router - is it a different one to the one you used the last time you had everything set up and working?

I have an old TP-Link hub (nothing fancy it doesn't even have a web interface to manage it) and my Amiga isn't able to get onto the Internet when connected to it but everything else is plug-n-play.

Whereabouts roughly do you live? Might be worth seeing if there are any other Amigans locally to you (and take into account any restictions on meeting up).
Title: Re: Networking issues
Post by: nineoc on January 03, 2021, 05:25:38 PM
Yes, the router is quite different.

As for your suggestion regarding assistance, I am in a remote part of Western Canada, and I have just recently been in touch with someone with Amiga experience who is about six hours away who may be able to assist. We will be talking on and off about options, so if we are able to get this sorted out I will let the forum know what the resolution is.

Thanks for continuing to think about this, and I will be in touch, one way or the other. :) :) :)