Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on February 06, 2011, 01:41:35 AM
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Before I get started let me get something out of the way. I am no investigative journalist and I have no explosive news to report. If that is what you were expecting, you should probably stop reading now. Most of what is written here is probably already known by anyone closely following this new company. The purpose if this report is not a detailed technical analysis of the upcoming product, but rather an overview of the meeting and what the company was willing to demonstrate.
On February 3rd, 2011 Barry Altman, CEO of Commodore USA, LLC, was kind enough to invite me into his house to discuss the company, staff and upcoming products. I was invited to see some details of what is going on publicly and behind the scenes, so we could report back to the community our opinion good bad or indifferent. I brought along Cybereye, a long time friend and former business partner of mine. Also in attendance was Dammy, who drove down from central Florida. Dammy presented Barry with a Black Troll tee shirt as a gift. Moochie also sat in on the meeting and made sure his presence was known in a very friendly way.
Barry gave us a history of himself and his prior and current businesses. Barry founded Cabletech, which was an extremely successful company.
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=116&pictureid=663)
So successful that unfortunately you can find Barry Altman's on the official list of Bernie Madoff’s victims. We saw original documents showing the amount of the loss, needless to say this was a very large amount of money. Unlike many other Modoff victims, he did not lose everything. Barry’s history with Homecraft, LLC was also discussed. Barry was retired when he got an idea for a specific type of furniture, the result was another highly successful company. More recently while enjoying semi-retirement again, the idea of relaunching Commodore as a unique brand came to him. Barry is a former Commodore 64 and Amiga/Video Toaster user. Commodore 64 computers were even in use at Cabletech, as this picture shows.
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=116&pictureid=665)
That is Barry sitting in front of a Commodore 64.
An interesting TV segment from the 80’s was shown to us that focused on VC-II encryption and Cabletech. Barry and his brother were interviewed heavily. Thousands of emails were shown. Website feedback emails number in the thousands, mostly positive or neutral. Email correspondence with a very, very major media company was shown. Commercials and print ads were shown as were additional commercial concepts. Co-branding was discussed as was product placement. The only thing we were asked not to repeat were the names of certain companies discussed and no, I will not name them.
All of the Commodore named products were available for viewing. The Commodore 64x prototype is very high quality. I know the Commodore 64 and this case replica looks near perfect.
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=116&pictureid=675)
The injection molding process was discussed and the final keyboard prototype was shown. The keyboard has to be custom designed for the retro case. Costs were explained and invoices were shown. There is real money being put into developing this product, costs are in the 6 figures for the case and keyboard alone. The other models shown such as the Phoenix and Vic line have customizations that exceed slapping a label on an existing product. Workbench 5 was explained to be proceeding, but the possibility exists the name may change before launch. No surprise, there is an expectation that most customers will simply order Windows 7. The Commodore Amiga line was discussed. Each model will be available with a choice of configurations. They are looking into the possibility of having a long, narrow LED that extends along the front of the case. Software could use this LED for animations or other purposes.
In conclusion, I found nothing to suggest nefarious intentions that some suspect. On the other hand, we were shown plenty of evidence to suggest the company is moving forward as fast as they can to get product on the market and to promote the product. If Commodore USA is able to execute on their current vision and suggested partners, things will get very interesting. While Commodore USA is currently a licensee for the Commodore and Amiga name, the intention is to own these companies outright one day and to be a publicly traded company on a major exchange. Barry asks that he not be judged by the failures, scams and vapor of the past but rather by his product when it is released.
If you have questions, feel free to ask. Dammy or I should be able to answer.
Click HERE (http://www.amiga.org/forums/album.php?albumid=116) to see the photo album for this visit.
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Thanks on the report, Red! Nice job !
Looking forward to seeing one of those products on my desk in the future :)
While Commodore USA is currently a licensee for the Commodore and Amiga name, the intention is to own these companies outright one day and to be a publicly traded company on a major exchange
Hell YES! :D
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Lots of words Jim that just confirms that this man is a -DELETE-.
If he wants to sell commodore pc's then great.
If he wants to sell Amiga cases for Amiga computers then great.
If he wants to <> the Amiga community and undermine the official Amiga then screw him and all involved with him. -DELETE-
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Thanks Red.
The c64 machine looks great and has marketability. I'm interested.
The Amiga line, not so much... There's just nothing Amiga about it.
If they have the ability to make a computer look so much like the original c64, I'm wonder why they didn't go that route with the Amiga branded ones.
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Just one question.
Which lodge does Barry belong to?
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Sorry Red, not putting your report down or being disrespectful, but it's gotta go down as a non-event in my books... :(
Guess we'll just have to put up with the hype and constant bickering from now on... :)
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If they have the ability to make a computer look so much like the original c64, I'm wonder why they didn't go that route with the Amiga branded ones.
There will be Amiga replicas too, very possibly. It's being discussed on c-a.org... :)
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Is it not fair to say the only unique thing is the C64 keyboard?
The rest is no different to previous years with C= netbooks and MP3 players by the C= IP owners. Emulation on custom cased x86 PCs
(you stated he wanted something unique)
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Thanks Red.
The c64 machine looks great and has marketability. I'm interested.
The Amiga line, not so much... There's just nothing Amiga about it.
If they have the ability to make a computer look so much like the original c64, I'm wonder why they didn't go that route with the Amiga branded ones.
I have two A2000s which are dead as a dodo. But I can purchase an old Athlon motherboard with PS/2 keyboard socket, directly connect my A2000 keyboards with a 5pin DIN adaptor and then stick it all back together to use Amiga keyboard inside A2000 casing but run AROS on a 64bit PC system :)
The C64 was a bit more tricky requiring mini ITX, Keyrah etc etc. Here's a question though, will they be building in a 9pin D-connector adaptor on there so you could play a two player game with a couple of REAL competition pro joysticks not that USB retarded competition pro?
Little things like that would go a long way.
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Check out the badass Chevette in the one picture, man, I wish mine didn't get totaled when some bitch ran into it while it was parked on the street.
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Nice, I am impressed. This guy knows a thing or two about starting companies. This is what we have needed for 15yrs, someone interested, with money, and business sense.
(obviously) can't please everyone though.
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Hmm, interesting. While I retain my dour view of putting a PC in a pretty case and calling it an Amiga, it's at least good to hear some evidence for this being an honest-to-God project and not a fly-by-night operation. I'd rather find someone to be a misguided honest man than a huckster operating under the guise of things I'd actually like to see.
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Nice, I am impressed. This guy knows a thing or two about starting companies. This is what we have needed for 15yrs, someone interested, with money, and business sense.
(obviously) can't please everyone though.
Well I don't need a Commodore PC, if I did I would have bought one between 1985-1994 instead of my various Amigas ;)
Yes we need someone with business sense, and someone with money I agree. We just need someone to build an actual Amiga of some sort (ie runs MOS/OS4) not a custom PC with pre-installed VICE/UAE emulator :roflmao:
As for undermining x1000....are people really that dumb to think C= USA products will run MOS/OS4?
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Well lets say he is successful with this thing and is sincere about buying the IP. AI etc. are pretty much useless, less than useless really they have gotten in the way of others actually developing stuff for the Amiga.
Actual leadership and direction for the Amiga brand
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... We just need someone to build an actual Amiga of some sort (ie runs MOS/OS4) not a custom PC with pre-installed VICE/UAE emulator :roflmao:
...
There are many of us that consider Aros to be as much Amiga as MOS/OS4.
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Well lets say he is successful with this thing and is sincere about buying the IP. AI etc. are pretty much useless, less than useless really they have gotten in the way of others actually developing stuff for the Amiga.
Actual leadership and direction for the Amiga brand
Only Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft have the kind of R&D funds to make a true Amiga 1000 successor to be honest.
May not even be viable with their R&D too :afro:
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Only Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft have the kind of R&D funds to make a true Amiga 1000 successor to be honest.
May not even be viable with their R&D too :afro:
What you consider to be a true Amiga 1000 successor? or me, or Barry, or Franko? We all have different ideas about what a "true successor" is.
I think that is ok, I respect MOS and others, I would never buy one of them, but its fine if others do.
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thanks for taking the time to interview him.
Things certainly seem more interesting on the Amiga front now with both the X1000 and C-USA we haven't had so much excitement in years.
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@redrumloa
Thanks for that info. It's nice to see someone on this board who actually takes the time to research and report instead of the constant negativity and trolling we receive from the same old trolls regarding CUSA. What really amazes me are the constant attacks by the same handful of people. They are starting to appear as if they are psychotic.
I would enjoy having one of CUSA's products on my desk, especially a PC in an A1000 case.
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What you consider to be a true Amiga 1000 successor? or me, or Barry, or Franko? We all have different ideas about what a "true successor" is.
I think that is ok, I respect MOS and others, I would never buy one of them, but its fine if others do.
I said A1000 successor not Amiga successor on purpose. The A1000 was superior and cheaper to every Mac and PC even remotely as powerful in 1985. Like I said that may not even be feasible ie to have impossible abilities at half the price of your competitors machines.
Amiga 2000 was so/so as the Archimedes was out, and A4000 was lagging behind top end PC tech within months due to relentless Intel release schedule in the 90s.
I think what everyone wanted this century was just a value for money in price AND performance MOS/OS4 compatible box. Didn't happen so here we are all still passing over on SAM 460 and X1000.
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I don't care about the brand. I care about the operating system.
All these years, all these decades, all these lost battles and causes later, what we really have that's left of the Amiga is the operating system. And the variants. It's all I care about. What this man proposes does nothing to service the market or the products I care about. But I worry that it threatens them. Does it? Could it? Could AmigaOS become collateral damage? Not an intended target, but lost anyway.
Based on this new company's previous unprofessional behavior ("borrowing" intellectual property, publicly insulting whole groups of consumers), I didn't take this seriously. But now I get a little nervous. If six figures have been spent on a keyboard/case design, there's money here.
This man could have great success with the Commodore brand name. The Amiga brand name is not nearly as valuable. I wish he would leave it and us alone.
*edited slightly for clarity.
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@Darrin
-DELETE-
Undermine what official Amiga? There hasn't been an official Amiga since the 90s. Oh, you must mean that joke called the X1000. The joke is on you if you're still waiting for that thing to be produced. BTW, why do you have resort to 4-letter words in your post? Are you not educated enough to use bigger words?
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@redrumloa
I would enjoy having one of CUSA's products on my desk, especially a PC in an A1000 case.
+1
I love the A1000 case... I doubt it will happen but who knows.
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@redrumloa
Thanks for that info. It's nice to see someone on this board who actually takes the time to research and report instead of the constant negativity and trolling we receive from the same old trolls regarding CUSA. What really amazes me are the constant attacks by the same handful of people. They are starting to appear as if they are psychotic.
I would enjoy having one of CUSA's products on my desk, especially a PC in an A1000 case.
Any "Troll" or "psychotic" in particular you'd care to name... :)
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Any "Troll" or "psychotic" in particular you'd care to name... :)
They know who they are......and so do the sane individuals! LOL
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If Commodore USA is able to execute on their current vision and suggested partners, things will get very interesting. While Commodore USA is currently a licensee for the Commodore and Amiga name, the intention is to own these companies outright one day and to be a publicly traded company on a major exchange.
Lofty goal indeed. I don't think Red or Dammy will be able to answer this one, but here's a question regardless:
The last news release from Asiarim indicating their intent regarding C=USA:
"The License Agreement is for an initial period of approximately 3 years, provided that certain financial and sales commitments are met, and can be renewed subject to fulfillment of certain sales targets and financial commitments."
Has Barry discussed with Ben van Wijhe the option of a buyout, given that the above indicates an entirely different plan from Asiarim's perspective in September, 2010.
source (http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/100924/ASIARIM-CORP_8-K/ext991-092410ar.htm)
#6
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They know who they are......and so do the sane individuals! LOL
Well I know who I am so that rules me out, as for sane individuals... Amiga + Sane Individuals equals the same thing... :)
It's the rest of the the world that's insane... ;)
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@Darrin
Undermine what official Amiga? There hasn't been an official Amiga since the 90s. Oh, you must mean that joke called the X1000. The joke is on you if you're still waiting for that thing to be produced. BTW, why do you have resort to 4-letter words in your post? Are you not educated enough to use bigger words?
No, I mean OS 4 and ANY hardware it runs on. Trolls like you can back to where you came from along with this weasel and his cases. Got it?
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I'll admit, a fairly decent PC in a case looking almost completely like a C64 does have my interest. It'd be a wicked nice looking thing to sit on a computer table.
Not yet interested in the "amiga" stuff. If they end up with a nice amiga like UI for linux, Id have interest, and I'd at least consider a PC in a replica A1200 or A500 case.
It wont be an amiga, but itd be fun to own.
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No, I mean OS 4 and ANY hardware it runs on. Trolls like you can fuck off back to where you came from along with this weasel and his cases. Got it -DELETED-
Wow, with a vocabulary like that, I bet you make your momma proud! And she said as much to me when you were being conceived, dimwit.
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No, I mean OS 4 and ANY hardware it runs on. ...
OS4 wasn't developed by Commodore, or even AI; is was produced under license just like these machines are. Why is OS4 legit and these not?
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-deleted-
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I'll admit, a fairly decent PC in a case looking almost completely like a C64 does have my interest. It'd be a wicked nice looking thing to sit on a computer table.
Not yet interested in the "amiga" stuff. If they end up with a nice amiga like UI for linux, Id have interest, and I'd at least consider a PC in a replica A1200 or A500 case.
It wont be an amiga, but itd be fun to own.
Anyone who can't do their own case mod would probably want one too.
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OS4 wasn't developed by Commodore, or even AI; is was produced under license just like these machines are. Why is OS4 legit and these not?
No, it was developled by the people with a license to do so, instead of this -DELETED- it with his worthless "Amiga Workench 5" bullshit.
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No, it was developled by the people with a license to do so, instead of this twunt and his attempt to steal it with his worthless "Amiga Workench 5" bullshit.
Hyperion and cusa BOTH have license
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Perhaps you should have engaged your brain before you made your initial post. Believe me, it wahat I would say to face given half a chance and then pound your sigusting herad into the tarmac. God it, fuckwit?
Well, she did say she was going to be proud of your vocabulary but she knew your spelling skills would be horrible. That's why she nicknamed you Dimwit. But at least you spelled tarmac properly.
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OS4 wasn't developed by Commodore, or even AI; is was produced under license just like these machines are. Why is OS4 legit and these not?
I'll also point out that this wastrell had the chance to do something positive with a Commodore line of computers and even an Amiga line of cases. Instead he deliberately went out to undermine and divide the community even further. He deserves nothing but our contempt all I'll be mor ethan happy to give it to him at any opportunity.
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OS4 is worth less than anything that actually runs on hardware people have. OS4 runs only on specialized, very expensive and rare hardware. Fine for you if you want to spend tons of money on it.
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Well, she did say she was going to be proud of your vocabulary but she knew your spelling skills would be horrible. That's why she nicknamed you Dimwit. But at least you spelled tarmac properly.
You try spellin wrds corkly after 4 pints!
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OS4 is worth less than anything that actually runs on hardware people have. OS4 runs only on specialized, very expensive and rare hardware. Fine for you if you want to spend tons of money on it.
It is still "Amiga" and it doesn't giev him the right to steal.
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wastrell???? well its better than some of the other stuff youve posted
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You try spellin wrds corkly after 4 pints!
AHHHHH that explains alot.....
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-deleted-
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You try spellin wrds corkly after 4 pints!
Gawd Darrin only 4 pints... your becoming a tee-totaler... :lol:
Grab a bottle of Scotch and really tell the buggers what you think... ;)
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AHHHHH that explains alot.....
Actually, HUGE glasses and more than pints.
The glue didn't help either.
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<("dude why is my computer busted")>
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Gawd Darrin only 4 pints... your becoming a tee-totaler... :lol:
Grab a bottle of Scotch and really tell the buggers what you think... ;)
It was 4 pints of scotch you thistle arsed haggis shagger! :D
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<("dude why is my computer busted")>
Are you looking at me?! eh?!!!
At least I drank them at Hooters and got to perve! ;)
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Typical! It's your round. :mad:
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It was 4 pints of scotch you thistle arsed haggis shagger! :D
I did wonder, don't do any sheep worrying on the way home from hooters... :lol:
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Lots of words Jim that just confirms that this man is a -DELETE-.
If he wants to sell commodore pc's then great.
If he wants to sell Amiga cases for Amiga computers then great.
If he wants to <> the Amiga community and undermine the official Amiga then screw him and all involved with him. -DELETE-
Hate to moderate you Darrin, but personal attacks are against the TOS.
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I did wonder, don't do any sheep worrying on the way home from hooters... :lol:
I found a newt! Had to wrap it with duct tape to stop it splitting.
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Here's a question though, will they be building in a 9pin D-connector adaptor on there so you could play a two player game with a couple of REAL competition pro joysticks not that USB retarded competition pro?
Little things like that would go a long way.
That would be best asked to Leo who is a member here.
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I must admit that the 64x looks cool ! though I also must admit that the original 64 took me up to my 2'nd year of University and I still have pain in my wrists/elbows from typing on the darn thing:laughing:...perhaps they could have made it more ergonomic instead of keeping it so true to the original ??
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Hate to moderate you Darrin, but personal attacks are against the TOS.
Sorry Jim,
But the man is a <--- moderated myself there.
Try an convince him to make a sane business plan.
Hell, if he marketed "Amiga" products along the lines of cases for classic machines, Minimig, FPGA or Natami then I'd buy them.
This whole "Amiga PC" with "Workbench 5" is utter crap!
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Hyperion and cusa BOTH have license
But does granting this license to this new company (having a hard time calling them Commodore, I admit) allowing a competing product (Workbench 5) violate the settlement agreement between A Inc. (having a hard time calling those shysters Amiga, I admit)? I don't know... just asking.
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Sorry Jim,
But the man is a <--- moderated myself there.
Try an convince him to make a sane business plan.
Hell, if he marketed "Amiga" products along the lines of cases for classic machines, Minimig, FPGA or Natami then I'd buy them.
This whole "Amiga PC" with "Workbench 5" is utter crap!
red, I'm with Darrin on this one...you know that's a sore area for quite a few of us around here:(
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red, I'm with Darrin on this one...you know that's a sore area for quite a few of us around here:(
I think it is the only sore area with us. I don't understand why he had to do it.
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That would be best asked to Leo who is a member here.
You got that right... Leo is most certainly a MEMBER... :roflmao:
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Sorry Jim,
But the man is a <--- moderated myself there.
Try an convince him to make a sane business plan.
Hell, if he marketed "Amiga" products along the lines of cases for classic machines, Minimig, FPGA or Natami then I'd buy them.
This whole "Amiga PC" with "Workbench 5" is utter crap!
Be as negative as you wish, just please avoid the personal attacks.:hammer:
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red, I'm with Darrin on this one...you know that's a sore area for quite a few of us around here:(
That's fine, be as negative as you wish. I am only pointing out personal attacks are against the TOS.
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That's fine, be as negative as you wish. I am only pointing out personal attacks are against the TOS.
Even if youre just negative someones going to pee their pants about it. :)
True story.
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Be as negative as you wish, just please avoid the personal attacks.:hammer:
Are those my testicles under that hammer? ;)
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I think it is the only sore area with us. I don't understand why he had to do it.
dude, WE KNOW WHY and it's so bloody obvious that it's laughable...nah pathetic but honestly what did we expect from AI after all the years of lies and deception:furious:
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Well, it's been quite lively round here tonight but now it's nearly 4am here, I'm off to put a white sheet over my head and nip across the road to old Mrs Johnsons house and float about outside her bedroom window... :)
Hopefully if she has another stroke this time it will affect the other side of her face, cos her face has looked bit lop sided since the last one I gave her... :)
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You try spellin wrds corkly after 4 pints!
4 pints? What are you a girl?
:drink::drink::drink::drink::drink::drink: :pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint: = :insane:
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You try spellin wrds corkly after 4 pints!
4 pints? What are you a girl?
:pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint:= :insane:
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Are those my testicles under that hammer? ;)
But Darrin you don't have any testicles... :rtfm:
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The Amiga line, not so much... There's just nothing Amiga about it. If they have the ability to make a computer look so much like the original c64, I'm wonder why they didn't go that route with the Amiga branded ones.
None of the pictures Red took were of the upcoming Amigas. There were all C64x/Vic series. Wait until there is a "Amiga" from C=USA and then judge would be my advice.
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4 pints? What are you a girl?
:drink::drink::drink::drink::drink::drink: :pint::pint::pint::pint::pint::pint: = :insane:
The one on the right is a girl.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/darrin01311/WP_000038s.jpg)
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But Darrin you don't have any testicles... :rtfm:
I do. My wife keeps them in a pickle jar.
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None of the pictures Red took were of the upcoming Amigas. There were all C64x/Vic series. Wait until there is a "Amiga" from C=USA and then judge would be my advice.
We don't need to wait. Screw your "Amigas".
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We don't need to wait. Screw your "Amigas".
Seeya. Don't let the door hit ya where the lord split ya.
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Seeya. Don't let the door hit ya where the lord split ya.
I'll be here long after Mr Weasel and his minions have departed.
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The one on the right is a girl.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/darrin01311/WP_000038s.jpg)
That you are and quite an attractive one at that. I'd date you without a second thought. Unlike that guy on the left who seems so weak he needs 2 hands to hold up his beer :roflmao:
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Yeah, that's gotta hurt!
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/570516/2/istockphoto_570516_hammer_nut_scenario.jpg)
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That you are and quite an attractive one at that. I'd date you without a second thought. Unlike that guy on the left who seems so weak he needs 2 hands to hold up his beer :roflmao:
Oi! I'm wanking with my left hand like any real man.
Here's her friend:
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/darrin01311/WP_000037s.jpg)
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I'd suggest you should avoid binge drinking unless you like having your liver swollen to twice it's normal size. Besides he could have passed out on the street, later waking up in a bathtub full of ice with his kidneys stolen. :roflmao:
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I'd suggest you should avoid binge drinking unless you like having your liver swollen to twice it's normal size. Besides he could have passed out on the street, later waking up in a bathtub full of ice with his kidneys stolen. :roflmao:
I'll settle for waking up with my knob swollen to twice it's size and my ethics stolen.
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Ok, the keyboard was out of the case and you didn't pull a cap to show the switches?! And the cap printing?!
Ok, on a serious note...why the diverse product line of "commodores?" Apart from the C64 clone, the rest looked like generic crap. Better business sense would be to take the only product worth anything (that fancy C64 box) and market the crap out of it. Also I am guessing those passively cooled processors get hot hot hot!
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Before I get started...
This thread is gay. I'm going through the first few pages and most of these comments have been edited by Red himself. Not saying red isn't a fair mod, but maybe should have held off on moding your own thread, especially a thread of this nature.
Lame.
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@redrumloa
Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience meeting up with the guy behind CUSA. It looks like y'all had a good time and It's nice to see some info about things going on behind the scenes. That c64 prototype looks pretty slick. It's good to see that someone with some real business experience is finally going to do some interesting things with the brand.
Out of curiosity, did the guy mention whether or not their custom linux distro will be freely downloadable for all, or just for customers of the future machines? Was there any mention of the app store concept? I remember reading something about that on commodore-amiga.org a while ago.
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We don't need to wait. Screw your "Amigas".
If you enjoy being closed minded, there isn't much I can say about that.
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@redrumloa
Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience meeting up with the guy behind CUSA. It looks like y'all had a good time and It's nice to see some info about things going on behind the scenes. That c64 prototype looks pretty slick. It's good to see that someone with some real business experience is finally going to do some interesting things with the brand.
And best yet, he has the personal wealth to push this.
Out of curiosity, did the guy mention whether or not their custom linux distro will be freely downloadable for all, or just for customers of the future machines? Was there any mention of the app store concept? I remember reading something about that on commodore-amiga.org a while ago.
I asked Barry about the app store, he said as soon as possible.
As far as source code, I'm sure C=USA will abide by the different license agreements requirements and make the code available.
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Mmmmm let me recap the events sofar:
- some obscure furniture-salesman sets up a website under a trademark he clearly didn't own (or had a licence for)
- on this website he advertizes some really crap lowend non-mobile laptops
- he hires the 1st forum-fanboy he runs into as his CTO
- he claims he created the site to find out who really own C=
- he negotiates a agreement with the wrong C=
- he steals images from various websites, and photoshops them just as much to disguise their sources
- he gets a licence from the real C= and Amiga.inc
- he does some big mouth talking about using AROS
- he downtalks AROS
- he talks about Workbench5 and multimillion ad-campaings but fails to get even the most basic things straighten out
Did I miss anything ?
I mean 11 years ago with the Bill&Barry-show it wasn't that much different, only that these 2 knew how to execute their megalomanic-investment-scam with style (just not with success) having big offices and suchlike.
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As far as source code, I'm sure C=USA will abide by the different license agreements requirements and make the code available.
Dunno sofar he take on someele's IP was more in line with Hyperion's take on such matter:
"open-source is good when you taking, but teh evil if you have to give"
"stealing is no crime if you get away with it"
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This thread is gay. I'm going through the first few pages and most of these comments have been edited by Red himself. Not saying red isn't a fair mod, but maybe should have held off on moding your own thread, especially a thread of this nature.
Lame.
Is that what being gay means? Moderating your own forum threads? Oh god, I've been doing it wrong :nervous:
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moto
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Turn in next week for another episode of As The Boing Ball Turns.
Thanks Red for the info.
Also nice C64 Tower.
Change is hard.
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Is that what being gay means? Moderating your own forum threads? Oh god, I've been doing it wrong :nervous:
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moto
Oh noes, how are your parents going to react when you tell them you aren't gay? ;)
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@Nik
They'll be gutted - they think I've been moderating my own threads for the last 10 years!
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@Nik
They'll be gutted - they think I've been moderating my own threads for the last 10 years!
:lol:
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Not sure why all the hoo har?
The guy is building novelty PCs with a retro name that he has licensed. One of them a pretty neat looking c64.
Free world, free market. If ya don't like them don't buy them.
It's like arguing over a re-licensed version of Star Trek on the TV. If you don't like it you turn it over, you don't try and stop the thing being produced.
My view is there's room in the world for this type of kit. it's a positive effort.
As was Red's. WD Red.
As long as there is clarity as to what these machines do, and are, and what they arent.
Who was it that said, any publicity is good publicity. It might re-awaken a new Commodore/Amiga consciousness.
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Thanks Red that was a good write up :)
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Mmmmm let me recap the events sofar:
Won't quote the whole post, but Kronos has it straight, I think.
But I wanted to chime back in to say what I forgot to say during my angst last night: Thanks, Red, for making the effort to produce this report for us.
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Nice report. Still looking forward to the release C64x. I'm more than confident that they will pull it off now.
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Dunno sofar he take on someele's IP was more in line with Hyperion's take on such matter:
"open-source is good when you taking, but teh evil if you have to give"
Since C=USA has not released any code (object or binary), your talking nonsense.
"stealing is no crime if you get away with it"
Let he who has not have the IP ownership or license of their avatar art work used on AO to be the cast the first stone.
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Let he who has not have the IP ownership or license of their avatar art work used on AO to be the cast the first stone.
Ye dinnay hauf gibber some total keech, so ye day... :)
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Ye dinnay hauf gibber some total keech, so ye day... :)
Mr. Pirate, could you translate that into English?
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Mr. Pirate, could you translate that into English?
Thought it was you... sad git... :)
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Thanks, for doing the report. Interesting read and pic's, and IMHO interesting times.
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Not sure why all the hoo har?
The guy is building novelty PCs with a retro name that he has licensed. One of them a pretty neat looking c64.
Free world, free market. If ya don't like them don't buy them.
It's like arguing over a re-licensed version of Star Trek on the TV. If you don't like it you turn it over, you don't try and stop the thing being produced.
My view is there's room in the world for this type of kit. it's a positive effort.
As was Red's. WD Red.
As long as there is clarity as to what these machines do, and are, and what they arent.
Who was it that said, any publicity is good publicity. It might re-awaken a new Commodore/Amiga consciousness.
nothing wrong with novelty PC's, it's the way it's been gone about.
Amiga Inc lost the amigaOS4 court case, calling the new skinned linux OS5 is just underhand, and a clear attempt at obfuscation. They have no OS4 to be an upgrade from.
Same thing for the name of the machine, it's named to mislead, and to be confused with the new X1000 from A-eon.
There is room for this kit. It looks nice, if it's got a commodore and amiga logo, and looks a bit like workbench-that's cool.
they could have went about it in a less underhanded manner, and let it stand on it's own merits.
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Thought it was you... sad git... :)
Thanks Mr. Pirate!
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Thanks Mr. Pirate!
Ah well at least you admit to being a grass, now if you you'll just admit to being a paid lacky of CUSA that would clear thing up a treat... :)
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Did I miss anything ?
Apparently. I won't reply to you point for point, just address this.
I mean 11 years ago with the Bill&Barry-show it wasn't that much different, only that these 2 knew how to execute their megalomanic-investment-scam with style (just not with success) having big offices and suchlike.
You should have typed Bill&Fleecy as to not confuse people with Barry Altman when you mean Fleecy. Also this line seems to imply you think CUSA is also a scam? I would say that is completely off basis. CUSA has not asked for money and not delivered product (CyberstormG3, Boxer etc). CUSA has not engaged in coupon schemes ($50 coupon, Party Pack etc). CUSA has demonstrated they are not a thinly veiled hoax (iWin, Troika etc).
At some point if they start asking for money in any situation that is not directly related to purchasing immediately available product, then maybe those thoughts creep in. None of that is happening here at this time. T
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Ah well at least you admit to being a grass, now if you you'll just admit to being a paid lacky of CUSA that would clear thing up a treat... :)
No Mr. Pirate, I am not an employee of C=USA. How about you admitting who you really are instead? Some how I really don't believe someone who just found the Internet in June goes and uses an anonymous domain register's service in early August and then puts up a pretty nice web site. I wouldn't doubt your using a anon service when posting as well. You are not going to tell us that N00bs do that all the time, right?
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Amiga Inc lost the amigaOS4 court case, calling the new skinned linux OS5 is just underhand, and a clear attempt at obfuscation.
They aren't planning on calling it OS5, rather Workbench 5. That may change too.
Same thing for the name of the machine, it's named to mislead, and to be confused with the new X1000 from A-eon.
That you would be wrong. A-Eon is not the first company to use the letter X in a product. Think Windows XP, OSX etc. The size of the potential market for the X1000 is completely irreverent to CUSA. Besides if I remember the conversation properly, and don't take my memory as a direct quote, CUSA did contact A-Eon and determined the X1000/OS4 product is nowhere near completion. CUSA wants product on the shelf this year, not at some undetermined year in the future if at all.
they could have went about it in a less underhanded manner, and let it stand on it's own merits.
I fail to see any underhanded manner, CUSA seems to be pretty open. So open in fact they have been blasted for minor hiccups.
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@red
Amino's initial plan was an investment(IPO)-scam, thats quite clearly documented on the net. When that failed (as they were a wee bit late for the dotcom-bubble) they went to scamming their costumers.
NotC=USA might not shown much evidence to write them down as a scam, but there have shown plenty evidence to show that they are not to be taken serious.
More in line with iWin or Escena sofar.
@dammy
And there I was thinking using a (slighly) funny avatar for personel use and blatantly ripping other peoples images and trademarks to support you buisness were somewhat different......
NotC=USA have shown quite clearly how little regard they have for other peoples IP when it came to trademarks or pictures I see no reason why that would change if and when it comes to upholding the terms of the GPL (or similar licences).
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Thanks for the report Red.
Currently these are just PCs in fancy retro cases.
Are they considering something more realistic like say a Minimig in an A500 case?
An FPGA based C64 in the C64 case is even more obvious.
If he's really spending big sums on getting the case right, why not throw in a new production run of the 6581 as well. He'd certainly sell those - there's a whole sub-culture of SID based synths out there.
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No Mr. Pirate, I am not an employee of C=USA. How about you admitting who you really are instead? Some how I really don't believe someone who just found the Internet in June goes and uses an anonymous domain register's service in early August and then puts up a pretty nice web site. I wouldn't doubt your using a anon service when posting as well. You are not going to tell us that N00bs do that all the time, right?
Here we go again, I really don't care who you think I am and how long I've been on the net if you couldn't pick up how to work the thing in your first few months then your even thicker than I gave you credit for... :)
Doubt away, think what you want, it's nice to know that I at least give you something to think about all the time, well at least when you're not thinking about just how far you can stick your tongue up Barry's read end... :)
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@red
Amino's initial plan was an investment(IPO)-scam, thats quite clearly documented on the net. When that failed (as they were a wee bit late for the dotcom-bubble) they went to scamming their costumers.
NotC=USA might not shown much evidence to write them down as a scam, but there have shown plenty evidence to show that they are not to be taken serious.
More in line with iWin or Escena sofar.
Got you. I read into your comment that you were comparing CUSA to Amino, now I see you weren't. You are entitled to your opinion.
I will say look at the Commodore 64x photos in my album. The heavy lifting is already done for this product. It is what it is, a PC in a beautiful retro case. No reason this can't be on the shelves this year.
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@dammy
And there I was thinking using a (slighly) funny avatar for personel use and blatantly ripping other peoples images and trademarks to support you buisness were somewhat different......
No, there is no difference. But it's accepted by most and in the business world, because it's tolerated to a point. It's not worth their effort to stomp out minor IP violations and it gives them free exposure on the Net.
NotC=USA have shown quite clearly how little regard they have for other peoples IP when it came to trademarks or pictures I see no reason why that would change if and when it comes to upholding the terms of the GPL (or similar licences).
That remains to be seen.
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It is what it is, a PC in a beautiful retro case.
Yeah, but .....
If your doing something like that as an DIY-project, you might be seen as the übercool-ultra-geek at the next retro-event, but if your buying it off the shelf all you get is an ultra-unergonomic PC at probraly insane pricing ;)
So in the long run it's doomed to fail, just like that >2000$ mobo based around an EOL-CPU.
It's just that NotC=USA might make the bigger splash.
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Doubt away, think what you want, it's nice to know that I at least give you something to think about all the time, well at least when you're not thinking about just how far you can stick your tongue up Barry's read end... :)
If that imaging floats your boat, go for it.
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So in the long run it's doomed to fail, just like that >2000$ mobo based around an EOL-CPU.
Maybe... luckily, C=USA is not basing their strategy on a single product. There will be laptops, netbooks, tablets, LCD monitos, keyboards, mices, joysticks... They should do fine, IMHO. C64x may, eventually, prove to be very expensive and low profit for them, but it will bring media attention. That's more important then number of units sold...
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If that imaging floats your boat, go for it.
No thanks, I'd rather think about you as you really are, a wee piece of S&!TE that I've just trodden and and then have the pleasure of scraping you off into the gutter where you belong... :)
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Yeah, but .....
If your doing something like that as an DIY-project, you might be seen as the übercool-ultra-geek at the next retro-event, but if your buying it off the shelf all you get is an ultra-unergonomic PC at probraly insane pricing ;)
Economics of scale, there are no plans for the c64x to be a rare uber-geek novelty. The idea is to have a major advertising blitz and products on the shelves of major retailers. The way I see it, the 64x should be their bread and butter if the plan is executed properly. CUSA sees not only name recognition with the Commodore name, but also the form of the C64 has instant recognition.
Barry told me a story about walking around a major manufacturing plant local to us while carrying his C64x prototype. Multiple people stopped him from different levels of the company to say they remembered the C64 fondly. I can relate to this story as I have a similar story, but one from the late 90's. The nostalgia factor is strong with the C64 and it has only grown since the 90's.
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Will you two kindly take this elsewhere?
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That C64 retro keyboard is great. Looks like a near perfect adaptation (with of course modern functions subtly added). The C64 PC is an interesting product, for sure. Awesome! The Amiga stuff I'm not so interested in unless they started making more of these near perfect retro-cases for them.
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@ Redrumloa
Problem is, Red, I can see them selling thousands of the C64x, maybe 10s of thousands, but not much more than that. All they are selling is an alternate (retro) form factor. This doesn't represent much of a value-add for a whole lot of people.
Two cents.
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@ Redrumloa
Problem is, Red, I can see them selling thousands of the C64x, maybe 10s of thousands, but not much more than that. All they are selling is an alternate (retro) form factor. This doesn't represent much of a value-add for a whole lot of people.
Two cents.
That is yet to be seen. The C64x is one product. Don't get me wrong, I am not declaring Commodore USA will be a major player in the near future as being a slam dunk. I do see potential based on what I was shown, but it comes down to final product, execution, co-branding success and maybe a little luck.
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@red
Here comes what everybody has been waiting for ..... the car-analogy !!
Why does BMW sell so many "Minis" ?
Is it because it somehow looks a bit like the old Minis ?
Or is it because it's actually a real good sporty upmarket small car, competing well with the likes of the VW Polo-GTI ?
How many BMW-Minis would we see on the street if they were just as cramped as old ones ? With just a bumpy ride due to the ultra-small tires ? With next to no crash protection ?
Thats why NotC=USA will fail (after some initial selling frenzy).
The C64-Joystick was a so much better attempt at doing a modern C64, concetrate on what the C64 was really good at and sell it at bargain price.
NotC=USA is enforcing all that was akward/bad of the C64 onto a bog-standard (more likely sub-standard) PC without adding any real value.
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@red
Here comes what everybody has been waiting for ..... the car-analogy !!
Why does BMW sell so many "Minis" ?
Is it because it somehow looks a bit like the old Minis ?
Or is it because it's actually a real good sporty upmarket small car, competing well with the likes of the VW Polo-GTI ?
How many BMW-Minis would we see on the street if they were just as cramped as old ones ? With just a bumpy ride due to the ultra-small tires ? With next to no crash protection ?
Thats why NotC=USA will fail (after some initial selling frenzy).
The C64-Joystick was a so much better attempt at doing a modern C64, concetrate on what the C64 was really good at and sell it at bargain price.
NotC=USA is enforcing all that was akward/bad of the C64 onto a bog-standard (more likely sub-standard) PC without adding any real value.
We shall see, we shall see. It should be an interesting ride though, won't it? I can't wait to see the Commodore name back in a major advertising blitz.
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We shall see, we shall see. It should be an interesting ride though, won't it? I can't wait to see the Commodore name back in a major advertising blitz.
That isn't the problem. It is seeing the Amiga name abused that I have issues with.
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That isn't the peoblem. It is seeing the Amiga name abused that I have issues with.
Peoblem, you got a hangover this morning... ;)
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That is yet to be seen. The C64x is one product. Don't get me wrong, I am not declaring Commodore USA will be a major player in the near future as being a slam dunk. I do see potential based on what I was shown, but it comes down to final product, execution, co-branding success and maybe a little luck.
Granted, but my main issue with them is their over-optimism based on what appears to be a very tenuous market to me. Declaring that they're gonna create a Linux-based Workbench 5 using a market-model that depends on nostalgia seems a little beyond wisdom.
Of course, I'm also in the if-it-ain't-gonna-be-an-Amiga-like-OS-then-don't-call-it-Amiga camp.
But, yes, we shall see...
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That isn't the peoblem. It is seeing the Amiga name abused that I have issues with.
They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.
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Ok guys, I'm going to be off to celebrate Super Bowl Sunday here soon. I may or may not be checking this thread throughout the day.
Go Dolphins!!! Oh wait... :cry:
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That is yet to be seen. The C64x is one product. Don't get me wrong, I am not declaring Commodore USA will be a major player in the near future as being a slam dunk. I do see potential based on what I was shown, but it comes down to final product, execution, co-branding success and maybe a little luck.
The other part is management capabilities. Barry has never had a business failure, he has the basic instinct of what will work and what will fail. Unlike a lot of business owners who trying to make it, Barry has already made it and could be retired for the rest of his life. This is his passion, this has capture his interest and he can throw himself into it with out the worry of losing everything. His pockets run that deep as his connections run extremely deep world wide. Barry is a different animal then what we have seen since the days of Jack Tramiel.
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They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.
Coke had the legal right to make New Coke too, but that didn't stop them from getting into trouble for it.
Just saying... :)
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The other part is management capabilities. Barry has never had a business failure, he has the basic instinct of what will work and what will fail. Unlike a lot of business owners who trying to make it, Barry has already made it and could be retired for the rest of his life. This is his passion, this has capture his interest and he can throw himself into it with out the worry of losing everything. His pockets run that deep as his connections run extremely deep world wide. Barry is a different animal then what we have seen since the days of Jack Tramiel.
There's always a first time. :)
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Thanks for the report! :)
That C64 looks very interesting! I think it will sell *a lot*! :)
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Yeah they show that American gridiron grand finale on SBS (the ethnic channel here) it's on the middle of Monday morning so it basically is watched by a few unemployed migrant indonesians who wonder wether it's a type of Rugby or not.
Ok guys, I'm going to be off to celebrate Super Bowl Sunday here soon. I may or may not be checking this thread throughout the day.
Go Dolphins!!! Oh wait... :cry:
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They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.
Legal or ethical? Their ethics stink.
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Peoblem, you got a hangover this morning... ;)
Doh! That was Tex-Mex for "problem". :D
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@Barry, Leo & CUSA company
Well, I have no problem with this C64x, I may even consider buying it! (http://www.amiga.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif)
However, calling this Linux distribution as "Workbench 5" is another matter, because that is somewhat misleading in my opinion :-/ If they call it "Commodore OS" or something else and we are just fine.
But what about this Amiga line thing... Putting a case around a PC that is not running any of these next generation Amiganoid OSes (OS4/MOS/AROS) and then calling the whole shebang for an Amiga, does not taste good at all in my mouth... :(
So anyway, it's good that they are considering naming WB5 to something else :) Guess, we've to wait and see what's comes out of all this...
@redrumloa
Thanx for the report!
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They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.
As more than a few of us have been pointing out since the start of this whole affair, our objections aren't to the legality of the thing. I haven't given a crap about who owns the Amiga name since I first got into the Amiga; what I care about is how I see it being applied. It might be legal for C-USA to call a PC in a fancy case an "Amiga," but that doesn't make people's objections that it has nothing to do with the Amiga any less worthy of consideration.
And given that C-USA is using names closer to the actual original Amiga than any "next-gen" company so far ("1000x" and so on, which they haven't even updated on their site from just plain "1000," where other companies have at least done stuff like "AmigaOne,") it'd be nice to see even some kind of acknowledgement for that.
This is his passion, this has capture his interest and he can throw himself into it with out the worry of losing everything. His pockets run that deep as his connections run extremely deep world wide. Barry is a different animal then what we have seen since the days of Jack Tramiel.
This is interesting to hear, but if he's really all that and a bag of chips, I wish he'd put his weight behind something more original. There's still ground to be broken and niches to be carved out in the computer industry, and if Barry is really as good a businessman as some are making him out to be, he could probably do as well or better with a new product instead of a gussied-up old one. It's an interesting comparison to Tramiel, because he wasn't one to just sit on his laurels and copy the competition's homework. Hell, he was already up and gone by the time Commodore released its first PC compatible. Would that Barry took more of a lesson from that.
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As more than a few of us have been pointing out since the start of this whole affair, our objections aren't to the legality of the thing. I haven't given a crap about who owns the Amiga name since I first got into the Amiga; what I care about is how I see it being applied. It might be legal for C-USA to call a PC in a fancy case an "Amiga," but that doesn't make people's objections that it has nothing to do with the Amiga any less worthy of consideration.
And given that C-USA is using names closer to the actual original Amiga than any "next-gen" company so far ("1000x" and so on, which they haven't even updated on their site from just plain "1000," where other companies have at least done stuff like "AmigaOne,") it'd be nice to see even some kind of acknowledgement for that.
This is interesting to hear, but if he's really all that and a bag of chips, I wish he'd put his weight behind something more original. There's still ground to be broken and niches to be carved out in the computer industry, and if Barry is really as good a businessman as some are making him out to be, he could probably do as well or better with a new product instead of a gussied-up old one. It's an interesting comparison to Tramiel, because he wasn't one to just sit on his laurels and copy the competition's homework. Hell, he was already up and gone by the time Commodore released its first PC compatible. Would that Barry took more of a lesson from that.
I think objections have been noted, your opinion has been considered. Are you seriously considering the opinions of others who are interested in this? Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what, nothing since 1994 really has a direct link to Amiga anyway.
Something truly totally original has no market. And very little chance to be sold for any kind of a reasonable price. That is were Natami and all the others are going, there is no bussiness sense in that. Where there is possibility is in starting something that has potential and building on that. And that is what Barry Altman seems to want to do.
Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it. It doesn't appeal to you fine, don't buy it. It is legal, it is going forward, and there are people interest in it. We don't care if it is a real resurrection of the "amiga" whatever you consider that to be.
Continuing to harp on this stupid "it's not an amiga" crap is ringing so hollow lately.
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I think objections have been noted, your opinion has been considered. Are you seriously considering the opinions of others who are interested in this? Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what, nothing since 1994 really has a direct link to Amiga anyway.
Something truly totally original has no market. And very little chance to be sold for any kind of a reasonable price. That is were Natami and all the others are going, there is no bussiness sense in that. Where there is possibility is in starting something that has potential and building on that. And that is what Barry Altman seems to want to do.
Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it. It doesn't appeal to you fine, don't buy it. It is legal, it is going forward, and there are people interest in it. We don't care if it is a real resurrection of the "amiga" whatever you consider that to be.
Continuing to harp on this stupid "it's not an amiga" crap is ringing so hollow lately.
Your attitude stinks. I look forward to seeing this effort fold and sink without a trace.
I can't see how a man can't be touted as a savvy businessman when he seems intent on alienating a portion of his potential customers.
I think that says it all really.
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Something truly original has no market? Before tablets came out, they were totally original and now are a booming business.
There always is something original. Too bad nothing using the Commodore or Amiga names has been since C= went under.
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I think objections have been noted, your opinion has been considered. Are you seriously considering the opinions of others who are interested in this? Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what, nothing since 1994 really has a direct link to Amiga anyway.
Something truly totally original has no market. And very little chance to be sold for any kind of a reasonable price. That is were Natami and all the others are going, there is no bussiness sense in that. Where there is possibility is in starting something that has potential and building on that. And that is what Barry Altman seems to want to do.
Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it. It doesn't appeal to you fine, don't buy it. It is legal, it is going forward, and there are people interest in it. We don't care if it is a real resurrection of the "amiga" whatever you consider that to be.
Continuing to harp on this stupid "it's not an amiga" crap is ringing so hollow lately.
Why are you telling folk to "get over it" folk are entitled to voice their views and opinions just like you do.
Who are this "We" you speak of, have you been nominated their spokesman ?
Again your comment "Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what," why is it ok for you to make such comments but you insist on telling folk that there opinions don't count... blah, blah, blah...
Your continuing to harp on about other folks comments is also ringing very hollow, I think you can only ever see one side of an argument and it always seems to be yours... :)
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Something truly original has no market? Before tablets came out, they were totally original and now are a booming business.
There always is something original. Too bad nothing using the Commodore or Amiga names has been since C= went under.
Tablets are just a computer with onscreen keyboard and touchscreen pointing deveice. Original, but not totally original, and not my point.
Releasing a totally new computer platform it very expensive, and difficult and likely to fail. Natami and the others have the deck stacked against them. Not to say that they will fail, but if the a5000, access stuff, boXer and others are any indication...
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Why are you telling folk to "get over it" folk are entitled to voice their views and opinions just like you do.
Who are this "We" you speak of, have you been nominated their spokesman ?
Again your comment "Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what," why is it ok for you to make such comments but you insist on telling folk that there opinions don't count... blah, blah, blah...
Your continuing to harp on about other folks comments is also ringing very hollow, I think you can only ever see one side of an argument and it always seems to be yours... :)
The big mistake is "them" thinking that their potential customers opinions don't count. They certainly do and "they'll" quickly discover that with shelves full of unsold inventory.
Looking forward to C-USA's "Grand liquidation, everything must go sale!"
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Here's a question though, will they be building in a 9pin D-connector adaptor on there so you could play a two player game with a couple of REAL competition pro joysticks not that USB retarded competition pro?
Little things like that would go a long way.
Yes it would, but at least products like this exist if not:
http://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=267
...and yeah, a bit of thanks goes out to Red and company for the interview and pics! Lot's of bickering and comic hysteria going on in this thread, but I'm in the camp that would like to see Commodore logos and products commercially produced again. The consumer (some of us even) will sort it all out in the end anyway as per the capitalism norm.
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Why are you telling folk to "get over it" folk are entitled to voice their views and opinions just like you do.
Who are this "We" you speak of, have you been nominated their spokesman ?
Again your comment "Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what," why is it ok for you to make such comments but you insist on telling folk that there opinions don't count... blah, blah, blah...
Your continuing to harp on about other folks comments is also ringing very hollow, I think you can only ever see one side of an argument and it always seems to be yours... :)
"we" as in the people who are interested in this company. As in I am one of them.
I never said anyones opinion doesn't count. But Ill tell you this, my opinion doesnt really count for OS4, or MOS or Natami, or quite a few other projects because I don't really care about them.
I see your side of the argument, I have heard it over and over again, and yet you still make it. Relax, this product isn't for you, just like OS4 isn't for me. I don't state my opinion over and over on OS4 threads because I don't care, I don't consider it to be any more "amiga" than Aros, or MOS or any of the other projects out there.
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Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what, nothing since 1994 really has a direct link to Amiga anyway.
Not true, not even a little bit. There is the operating system.
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Not true, not even a little bit. There is the operating system.
OS4 was not produced by commodore, or even AI, and it doesnt run on real 68k amigas.
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OS4 was not produced by commodore, or even AI, and it doesnt run on real 68k amigas.
Neither will Workbench 5. Your point is? Perhaps Commodore should have had their business plans stolen when they moved from the VIC-20 to the C64 as VIC software wouldn't run on that and it used a different CPU?
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OS4 was not produced by commodore, or even AI, and it doesnt run on real 68k amigas.
Commodore doesn't exist, AI never made anything but a fuss, and 68K Amigas aren't manufactured any longer (but there is the MiniMig).
The Amiga operating system, however, is a current product in active development and runs on a variety of hardware. It's development can be traced from the earliest days that predate Commodore. See here...
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141:twenty-five&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18
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I see your side of the argument, I have heard it over and over again, and yet you still make it. Relax, this product isn't for you, just like OS4 isn't for me. I don't state my opinion over and over on OS4 threads because I don't care, I don't consider it to be any more "amiga" than Aros, or MOS or any of the other projects out there.
I agree with you that this product isn't for me and I've already stated that here in other threads, just as I have stated I wish CUSA no harm in their business venture.
My only complaint (which I have also stated numerous times) is the use of the Commodore, C64, Amiga & Workbench Brand Names/Trademarks but as CUSA seems to be adamant on using them then I shall continue to express my views on this whenever the subject arises... :)
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Neither will Workbench 5. Your point is? Perhaps Commodore should have had their business plans stolen when they moved from the VIC-20 to the C64 as VIC software wouldn't run on that and it used a different CPU?
Nothing was stolen!!! AI has licensed the IP to Hyperion, Cloanto, and CUSA. AI is not developing anything. Amiga was a 68k computer developed in the 80's and early 90's by Commodore International. None of these is the amiga or even a real succesor to the amiga.
This is 2011, nothing we have is related other than by license to the real amiga. But we can fight and squable and carry on about stuff we don't like, or we can relax, and like what we like and let others do the same.
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Nothing was stolen!!! AI has licensed the IP to Hyperion, Cloanto, and CUSA. AI is not developing anything. Amiga was a 68k computer developed in the 80's and early 90's by Commodore International. None of these is the amiga or even a real succesor to the amiga.
This is 2011, nothing we have is related other than by license to the real amiga. But we can fight and squable and carry on about stuff we don't like, or we can relax, and like what we like and let others do the same.
There is an active "AMiga" product in the shape of OS4.x.
The "Amiga" name has been hijacked and is being deliberately used to undermine this long time and active product.
C-USA are a bunch of wasters and their actions are disgusting.
What don't you understand?
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I think objections have been noted, your opinion has been considered.
Well, except for all the people still repeating the "they have a license!" mantra, yes...
Fine it doesn't have anything to do with Amiga, so freaking what, nothing since 1994 really has a direct link to Amiga anyway.
Not really true, since even OS4 has some basis in the original Amiga, to say nothing of other, more directly-related projects, but even if it were: that makes this okay how?
Something truly totally original has no market. And very little chance to be sold for any kind of a reasonable price. That is were Natami and all the others are going, there is no bussiness sense in that.
Bullshit. Good products can create their own niche, and while it's certainly difficult to get a new system off the ground, it's probably no more so than creating a market for something that's just "exactly what the competition offers, but in a different case!"
Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it. It doesn't appeal to you fine, don't buy it. It is legal, it is going forward, and there are people interest in it. We don't care if it is a real resurrection of the "amiga" whatever you consider that to be.
I'll stop objecting to it when it stops being objectionable, thank you.
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I agree with you that this product isn't for me and I've already stated that here in other threads, just as I have stated I wish CUSA no harm in their business venture.
My only complaint (which I have also stated numerous times) is the use of the Commodore, C64, Amiga & Workbench Brand Names/Trademarks but as CUSA seems to be adamant on using them then I shall continue to express my views on this whenever the subject arises... :)
Should they have asked you? If they asked everyone in the amiga community they would get different answers from all of us. From what I can see they have every legal right to use these names, and a significant part of the community supports them. That you don't is regrettable, but that is one (rather loud) voice.
I used to give my opinion about OS4 whenever the subject arose, until I realized that my opinion didn't (and shouldn't) matter to the developers, and supporters of OS4. I am not a potential customer and they don't care. My opinion was, and is worthless.
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Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it. It doesn't appeal to you fine, don't buy it. It is legal, it is going forward, and there are people interest in it. We don't care if it is a real resurrection of the "amiga" whatever you consider that to be.
Continuing to harp on this stupid "it's not an amiga" crap is ringing so hollow lately.
Someone seems to have forgotten the Lessons of New Coke (http://www.powerhomebiz.com/052008/power-brand-new-coke.htm):When you take your products or your services and make them more like your competition, what does that accomplish? If it is a long-standing brand, it leads to trouble with your market. However, it leads to more than that. It removes any real difference between you and your competitors. In the days of New Coke, I switched between New Coke and Pepsi without a thought since to me there was no discernible difference between them. I no longer cared, the only question I had was, “which one is on sale?”
Not all of us are "objecting" on moral/ethical grounds. Some of us are suggesting they make more _strategic_ choices.
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This would have been the "sane" solution for C-USA:
Commodore PCs - a line of C= branded PCs running a variety of off-the-shelf OS's (Win, Linux, etc) or with a blank HD.
Commodore "Classic" PCs - as above, but with a Commodore themed case and AmigaForever/C64 Forever pre-installed with possily USB-Analog joystick adapters, joysticks and games.
Commodore Amiga cases - replacement cases for existing Amiga-like machines (Amiga1000-4000, OS4.x mobos, Minimig solutions, etc)
Commodore Amiga models - A line of Amiga compatable machines using Minimig/FPGA Arcade and eventually Natami supplied with a preconfigured SD Card containing ROMs, WB3.x and games.
Instead, they're up to something evil.
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There is an active "AMiga" product in the shape of OS4.x.
The "Amiga" name has been hijacked and is being deliberately used to undermine this long time and active product.
C-USA are a bunch of wasters and their actions are disgusting.
What don't you understand?
I don't understand how you don't understand that OS4 has as much to do with Amiga as Aros (AI accepts and has even used code from aros) MOS and CUSA. They are all used license. OS4 is not "Amiga" it is a decendant but Aros actually has a more direct link.
The name has not been "hijacked" except by morons that think it is some religious thing that should never be touched except by companies that they approve of.
You are a waster and this nonsense is disgusting. Trashng a company that is legally starting a retro based company.
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Should they have asked you? If they asked everyone in the amiga community they would get different answers from all of us. From what I can see they have every legal right to use these names, and a significant part of the community supports them. That you don't is regrettable, but that is one (rather loud) voice.
I used to give my opinion about OS4 whenever the subject arose, until I realized that my opinion didn't (and shouldn't) matter to the developers, and supporters of OS4. I am not a potential customer and they don't care. My opinion was, and is worthless.
Damn right they should have asked me... :)
Joking aside, I don't see a significant part of the community supporting them both here and on AW and on various reports I've read about CUSA on other sites, quite the opposite in fact.
You make consider by you own words that you opinion on OS4 was worthless but I don't consider my opinions to be worthless to me, otherwise there would be no point in me expressing them... :)
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Someone seems to have forgotten the Lessons of New Coke (http://www.powerhomebiz.com/052008/power-brand-new-coke.htm):
Not all of us are "objecting" on moral/ethical grounds. Some of us are suggesting they make more _strategic_ choices.
Nothing CUSA could possibly do would appeal to everyone. They are making stratigic choices, except possibly forgetting or not knowing how much of a cult we really are in.
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Damn right they should have asked me... :)
Joking aside, I don't see a significant part of the community supporting them both here and on AW and on various reports I've read about CUSA on other sites, quite the opposite in fact.
You make consider by you own words that you opinion on OS4 was worthless but I don't consider my opinions to be worthless to me, otherwise there would be no point in me expressing them... :)
If you aren't a potential customer what are your opinions worth to them. Not much. If you continue expessing them like this? they will, because you will be an enemy.
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If you aren't a potential customer what are your opinions worth to them. Not much. If you continue expessing them like this? they will, because you will be an enemy.
But he could have been if they had a sane business model that didn't involve shafting those who had been keeping the Amiga name alive through the dark years.
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This would have been the "sane" solution for C-USA:
Commodore PCs - a line of C= branded PCs running a variety of off-the-shelf OS's (Win, Linux, etc) or with a blank HD.
Commodore "Classic" PCs - as above, but with a Commodore themed case and AmigaForever/C64 Forever pre-installed with possily USB-Analog joystick adapters, joysticks and games.
Commodore Amiga cases - replacement cases for existing Amiga-like machines (Amiga1000-4000, OS4.x mobos, Minimig solutions, etc)
Commodore Amiga models - A line of Amiga compatable machines using Minimig/FPGA Arcade and eventually Natami supplied with a preconfigured SD Card containing ROMs, WB3.x and games.
Instead, they're up to something evil.
Something evil?!??!?! HA HA HA freaking... seriously?!
Are you still drunk?
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But he could have been if they had a sane business model that didn't involve shafting those who had been keeping the Amiga name alive through the dark years.
Again, how are they shafting ANYONE? right from the beginning they said they wanted to work with the powers that be, they even considered AROS as an OS. They didnt consider OS4 because there is no way to do that and stay in business.
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Something evil?!??!?! HA HA HA freaking... seriously?!
Are you still drunk?
No, I'm perfectly sane. I admit my choice of words is a little colourful, but they're not off the mark.
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But he could have been if they had a sane business model that didn't involve shafting those who had been keeping the Amiga name alive through the dark years.
How is he shafting "The Name"? He's spending millions on the first TV advertising for the C64x, something I don't think C= did for an entire year worth of advertising budget. So far he's shown off some possible cases for the Amiga series, is that enough for you to damn him and his company for showing off possible cases? I don't get it, perhaps I shouldn't want to.
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Again, how are they shafting ANYONE? right from the beginning they said they wanted to work with the powers that be, they even considered AROS as an OS. They didnt consider OS4 because there is no way to do that and stay in business.
I have come to the conclusion that you are a C-USA "sock puppet" and you're only here to continually repeat their party line.
I'm done with you.
You know they're scum and their business model sucks. You fail to address my alternative business plan, because this isn't about business plans. It probably has more to McEwan sticking it to Hyperion which either means he has his fingers in C-USA or sgafting Hyperiod was part of the deal.
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No, I'm perfectly sane. I admit my choice of words is a little colourful, but they're not off the mark.
Red is a longterm, respected member of amiga.org, he went, he saw, he reported, they arent up to anything sinister, Barry Altman is a long time Commodore fan, and successful business man, who wants to do more than just a case mod for himself.
Your comments, are off the mark.
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Not sure why all the hoo har?
The guy is building novelty PCs with a retro name that he has licensed. One of them a pretty neat looking c64.
My view is there's room in the world for this type of kit. it's a positive effort.
As was Red's. WD Red.
As long as there is clarity as to what these machines do, and are, and what they arent.
I agree, and if they had handled them self much better in the community from the start then I would have no problem with what they are trying to do and understand the market they are targeting are people with fond memories of the device, not the people that still use them. The problem I have is there lack of any recpect to the current community, or to the brand and what it has become before they even entered the market. How quickly some of you forgotten he threaten this very Site because it uses Amiga.org. with worlds like "who gave you the right to use that!" and "your just going to have to deal with it" when asked if Workbench 5 is not going to cause more issues or conflict with OS4. I personally hope Hyperion names their next version AmigaOS 6.0 if they want to play that game.
Its very sad, maybe they can turn it around, but I still feel they have a lot to learn about the market they are entering (example marketing your OS is going to be called Workebench when there is legal case going on about who actually owns that trademark) and I do feel if any one in the Amiga community really want what they are offering then get your modding hats on and just get one with it, you don't have to wait, the full details of how to do a C64 mod is online (somewhere) install Aros, linux, Windows, Amiga forever you got a pretty neat system. Just like I'm hooping to do with my MCC machine :)
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How is he shafting "The Name"? He's spending millions on the first TV advertising for the C64x, something I don't think C= did for an entire year worth of advertising budget. So far he's shown off some possible cases for the Amiga series, is that enough for you to damn him and his company for showing off possible cases? I don't get it, perhaps I shouldn't want to.
Ah, "Sock puppet #2".
I've explained it and so have several others.
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You are a waster and this nonsense is disgusting. Trashng a company that is legally starting a retro based company.
If they were just promoting themselves as a "retro-based company," that wouldn't be a problem, but they're not - they're promoting themselves as Commodore and touting an Amiga product line. Their whole site is based around this assumed identity. I don't want to jump to the conclusion that they're trying to mislead people, but it's difficult, considering how much their site tries to position them as The New Commodore. The only thing that could even be considered Commodore-related about this whole affair, aside from the C-64x's reproduction case, is the inclusion of emulators, which aren't even theirs. It's like some people here are so desperate for anything that has the "Amiga" name on it that they'll willfully blind themselves to the fact that there is no significant difference between this and any other PC that's had an emulator installed on it.
While I don't agree with Darrin's "evil" rhetoric, I think he's onto something with the idea of differentiated product lines providing some actual support for those of us in the community who see the Amiga brand as something more than just a sticker to be slapped onto whatever's selling well. Instead, C-USA seems to be completely in the dark about this, and its supporters actively hostile to anybody with a different view.
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It probably has more to McEwan sticking it to Hyperion which either means he has his fingers in C-USA or sgafting Hyperiod was part of the deal.
That's what this boils down to, Hyperion. That's your real worry, not about legacy, it's about Hyperion...
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Red is a longterm, respected member of amiga.org, he went, he saw, he reported, they arent up to anything sinister, Barry Altman is a long time Commodore fan, and successful business man, who wants to do more than just a case mod for himself.
Your comments, are off the mark.
Red has is a born optimist and more interested in "Commodore" than "Amiga".
The attempts to recruit him are smart and reminds me of the actions of another company from several years ago.
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That's what this boils down to, Hyperion. That's your real worry, not about legacy, it's about Hyperion...
No, "doing what is right" is what it boils down to.
"Ethics" is another.
Something you and C-USA fail to promote.
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If you aren't a potential customer what are your opinions worth to them. Not much. If you continue expessing them like this? they will, because you will be an enemy.
Now you've really lost me an enemy to who ???
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Nothing CUSA could possibly do would appeal to everyone. They are making stratigic choices, except possibly forgetting or not knowing how much of a cult we really are in.
Did you read the article I linked? Coke did all the right things, made all the correct choices, except for one thing: they ignored the "cult" that supported them.
When entering a new market, or in this case, being a new entry into the market, don't ignore your early adopters. It could make all the difference. And who are the early adopters in an Amiga branded market? Ummm... all you have to do is read here and get the majority of opinions. At least, you can get a good idea of who they aren't. :)
If it won't have an Amiga-like OS, then C=USA is making a fatal mistake. Better to call it the Commodore Colt (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/compc.gif) or the Commodore PC10 (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/commypc_group.jpg) than the Amiga.
If they don't, those prodigal Amigans they do bring back will end up wondering why their "Coke tastes funny."
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I have come to the conclusion that you are a C-USA "sock puppet" and you're only here to continually repeat their party line.
I'm done with you.
You know they're scum and their business model sucks. You fail to address my alternative business plan, because this isn't about business plans. It probably has more to McEwan sticking it to Hyperion which either means he has his fingers in C-USA or sgafting Hyperiod was part of the deal.
You THINK they are scum, you THINK the model suck, but what the heck do you know. Barry Altman has started several sucessful businesses. Red has reported he is not full of crap.
Your business model looks fine but who cares you aren't a entrepenuer with money to spend on CUSA, Barry is.
As for me being a sock puppet? I have been on Amiga.org for years, Ive never been banned, or even moderated (ahem, you yesterday) I have posted on many different amiga products and this is another. I think it has potential. I probably wont buy one because I am cheap like heck and build my own PCs. But if I were to buy a new computer, it very well might be a commodore.
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Legal or ethical? Their ethics stink.
Then we have Hyperion, who was contracted by Amiga Inc to do 4 months of developing work (some carefully defined work tasks, as outlined by the Friedens themselves) for which they would get a specified sum of money.
The four months passed. *Years* passed. But Hyperion never delivered according to their contract. Instead they simply took the money, held the code hostage for years while hoping for Amiga Inc to die, constantly FUD'ing MorphOS (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/) in the meantime in order to sabotage its market (this one is a personal favorite of mine: "The failure of Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team to come to terms is in part due to the fact that Amiga wants to assert their ownership and intellectual property rights over the Amiga OS (for which they paid 4.5 M USD) whilst the MorphOS team happily continues to refute those claims", as it so beautifully pictures the hypocrisy of Hyperion and irony of the situation that came to follow).
Then they try to rob Amiga Inc of their IP, but luckily the resulting "settlement" (cough cough) didn't result in a transfer of ownership of the Amiga IP to this mediocre Linux game porting company, and I'm glad that their products won't be called "Amiga", but amigaos or amigaone. Because Hyperion's ethics stinks, and so does their code, and nobody gave them the right to proclaim "Amiga" to be the degraded mishmash of poor performing code, poor and partly broken Amiga compatibility, relying on the second class Amiga API's and standards, Linux API's, lacking important standards, etc, and tying it to usury priced HW of poor performance and dubious quality. So I'm glad they aren't allowed to sell it as "Amiga"; since this will make it easier to advice people to stay clear from Hyperion's products without necessarily staying clear of "Amiga".
AFAIK, Commodore has a valid agreement with the IP owner to use the *Amiga* brand. This is very legal, and compared to what Hyperion has done during the last years, it's *very* ethical!
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Your business model looks fine but who cares you aren't a entrepenuer with money to spend on CUSA, Barry is.
So that makes his opinion invalid? Is that what this comes down to, money? 'Cause people who will take anything from anybody as long as they bring the cash, there's a word for them...
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...
While I don't agree with Darrin's "evil" rhetoric, I think he's onto something with the idea of differentiated product lines providing some actual support for those of us in the community who see the Amiga brand as something more than just a sticker to be slapped onto whatever's selling well. Instead, C-USA seems to be completely in the dark about this, and its supporters actively hostile to anybody with a different view...
Why should they provide a differetiated product line? Hyperion etc. haven't, Cloanto doesnt. OS4 is for PPC only, Aros is open source and can be ported to different archs but x86 is the main one.
This guy recognizes that x86 rules the world. Even Apple recognized that.
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So that makes his opinion invalid? Is that what this comes down to, money? 'Cause people who will take anything from anybody as long as they bring the cash, there's a word for them...
He isn't spending his own money to start a company. Barry is.
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So that makes his opinion invalid? Is that what this comes down to, money? 'Cause people who will take anything from anybody as long as they bring the cash, there's a word for them...
BARRY ALTMAN... :roflmao:
(Ok... that's two words but who's counting, well probably KT & Dammy... ;))
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You THINK they are scum, you THINK the model suck, but what the heck do you know.
More than you, obviously.
And I'm very successful too thanks, mostly because I know scum when I see it.
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Then we have Hyperion, who was contracted by Amiga Inc to do 4 months of developing work (some carefully defined work tasks, as outlined by the Friedens themselves) for which they would get a specified sum of money.
The four months passed. *Years* passed. But Hyperion never delivered according to their contract. Instead they simply took the money, held the code hostage for years while hoping for Amiga Inc to die, constantly FUD'ing MorphOS (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/) in the meantime in order to sabotage its market (this one is a personal favorite of mine: "The failure of Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team to come to terms is in part due to the fact that Amiga wants to assert their ownership and intellectual property rights over the Amiga OS (for which they paid 4.5 M USD) whilst the MorphOS team happily continues to refute those claims", as it so beautifully pictures the hypocrisy of Hyperion and irony of the situation that came to follow).
Then they try to rob Amiga Inc of their IP, but luckily the resulting "settlement" (cough cough) didn't result in a transfer of ownership of the Amiga IP to this mediocre Linux game porting company, and I'm glad that their products won't be called "Amiga", but amigaos or amigaone. Because Hyperion's ethics stinks, and so does their code, and nobody gave them the right to proclaim "Amiga" to be the degraded mishmash of poor performing code, poor and partly broken Amiga compatibility, relying on the second class Amiga API's and standards, Linux API's, lacking important standards, etc, and tying it to usury priced HW of poor performance and dubious quality. So I'm glad they aren't allowed to sell it as "Amiga"; since this will make it easier to advice people to stay clear from Hyperion's products without necessarily staying clear of "Amiga".
AFAIK, Commodore has a valid agreement with the IP owner to use the *Amiga* brand. This is very legal, and compared to what Hyperion has done during the last years, it's *very* ethical!
Ah, shall we drag Genesi in too?
Hyperion won in court, that's good enough for me.
I don't expect a long-term MOS fanboy to agree with me.
However, what do you think of C-USA's Workbench 5 marketing? Perhaps they could call it "Morph Workbench 5"?
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More than you, obviously.
And I'm very successful too thanks, mostly because I know scum when I see it.
Have you met Barry? have you seen his company? have you seen his work on CUSA? I'm betting no, Red has, I take his work well over yours, especially since you seem to be saying the same thing over and over without substantiation.
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Ah, shall we drag Genesi in too?
Hyperion won in court, that's good enough for me.
I don't expect a long-term MOS fanboy to agree with me.
However, what do you think of C-USA's Workbench 5 marketing? Perhaps they could call it "Morph Workbench 5"?
So it is good enough for you that hyperion had a legal right, but CUSAs legal right means nothing? I dont expect an off-his-rocker OS4 fanboy to agree with me.
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Have you met Barry? have you seen his company? have you seen his work on CUSA? I'm betting no, Red has, I take his work well over yours, especially since you seem to be saying the same thing over and over without substantiation.
I've seen what he's made available. I've seen his threatening letters. I've seen his stolen images.
First impressions count and the impression is "scum".
The evidence is there and all laid out for us to see.
If he isn't then he has a lot of back-tracking to do and I've seen to evidence of that, just sock puppets bleating on about what a nice guy he is. Sure...
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Why should they provide a differetiated product line? Hyperion etc. haven't, Cloanto doesnt. OS4 is for PPC only, Aros is open source and can be ported to different archs but x86 is the main one.
And when have Hyperion, Cloanto, or A-Eon been held up as exemplary niche computer businesses, exactly? Providing a differentiated product line could give C-USA the opportuntity to do something that they don't: serve more than one segment of the market. There are people here who would be happy to run Linux with an emulator on an x86 box, and more power to them (and to C-USA, if they're just serving that need and not trying to promote themselves as the True Successor.) But there are also a lot of people who'd like to see something else that's closer to the original Amiga, and their options are woefully limited. If Barry is such a successful businessman, he might have the potential to see through some of these community projects to completion and make them available to all the people who want them, not just the few that get their hands on developer prototypes and testing boards while waiting for the real thing to finally be available.
Or, you know, he could follow your example, shrug his shoulders, say "x86 wins, why bother, nothing good ever came of doing something different," and go with what everybody else does.
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So it is good enough for you that hyperion had a legal right, but CUSAs legal right means nothing? I dont expect an off-his-rocker OS4 fanboy to agree with me.
Dear sock puppet. This has already been answered. Please look up "ethics".
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Why don't ya'll just cool it for a minute? You're all arguing so hot and heavy that nobody is listening to anyone.
This is an emotional subject, yes. But nobody's going to get anywhere given the direction the argument keeps spinning into.
Two cents.
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Oh well... I'm off to have some dinner and watch a film it's called "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People", thinks it must be documentary on CUSA (Wonder if old KT & Dammy appear in it)... ;)
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And when have Hyperion, Cloanto, or A-Eon been held up as exemplary niche computer businesses, exactly? Providing a differentiated product line could give C-USA the opportuntity to do something that they don't: serve more than one segment of the market. There are people here who would be happy to run Linux with an emulator on an x86 box, and more power to them (and to C-USA, if they're just serving that need and not trying to promote themselves as the True Successor.) But there are also a lot of people who'd like to see something else that's closer to the original Amiga, and their options are woefully limited. If Barry is such a successful businessman, he might have the potential to see through some of these community projects to completion and make them available to all the people who want them, not just the few that get their hands on developer prototypes and testing boards while waiting for the real thing to finally be available.
Or, you know, he could follow your example, shrug his shoulders, say "x86 wins, why bother, nothing good ever came of doing something different," and go with what everybody else does.
Trying to offer a differentiated product line is also a great way to ensure you never get off the ground. It takes a lot of money to do this stuff. He should focus on what has the best chances right now.
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Not yet interested in the "amiga" stuff. If they end up with a nice amiga like UI for linux, Id have interest, and I'd at least consider a PC in a replica A1200 or A500 case.
It wont be an amiga, but itd be fun to own.
Fair enough and I would spend about 100 bucks on such a replica Amiga case, the price of the most stylish PC cases out there now. I would need some sort of hardware to interface with real Amigas I own though like Amiga FDD compatible disk controller card and FDD drive or a CF adaptor kit and software to use with A600/1200s etc as an optional extra too.
I'd want an A3000 or 1000 case plastics alone myself but nothing else except the hardware mentioned above, can get my own dirt cheap PC hardware and install OS and UAE myself thanks.
Here's a thought, how about an Amiga 3000 style case to fit an A1200 motherboard inside to recreate the A1400/A1400CD prototypes. Now something like that for £150 inc external keyboard rehousing kit too marketed honestly would get him a bit of respect. Team up with Jens and get some REALLY cheap 030 cards made in bulk by investing in massive initial production run himself [ie B. Altman investing] up front.
Not really interested in the C64x unless I can use real 9pin joysticks (so another £30 for Stelladaptor at best) the rest is not for me really interesting as it is. I'd rather have seen them licence the FPGA based C64 DTV and put it inside that case and bundle it with a uIEC or something. At least the C64 DTV has something new (256 colour screen mode like C65 prototype).
I suspect at best he will get orders for just the cases, the C64 keyboard is radically different. Do I really care though if my PC has 12 function keys not 10 when I use WinUAE? Nope. So much smaller market there for sure unless you make out it is the second coming of Commodore actual's Amiga from the 90s (which it is not despite woolly marketing). ;)
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Dear sock puppet. This has already been answered. Please look up "ethics".
Stop calling me a sock puppet, darrin.
You know nothing of ethics, if you think attacking a company that doesnt even remotely appeal to you is ethical. Barry Altman is starting a company he is doing it how he wants to.
You arent doing anything but sitting back and whining. You aren't trying to start a company, you aren't doing anything for the community.
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Stop calling me a sock puppet, darrin.
You know nothing of ethics, if you think attacking a company that doesnt even remotely appeal to you is ethical. Barry Altman is starting a company he is doing it how he wants to.
You arent doing anything but sitting back and whining. You aren't trying to start a company, you aren't doing anything for the community.
Sure,
Oh, here's a picture of you, Barry and Dammy!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b134/darrin01311/judge-sooty-sweep.jpg)
I'm doing lots for the community: I buy products. Yesterday I pre-ordered a Chameleon.
I've already pointed out in my business plan how Barry could sell products that would appeal to people. The question (still unanswered) is why he doesn't.
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I have answered your question several times, you dont seem to actually be reading my posts.
He doesn't have money to do very much hardware development, noone does.
Natami and others are dream projects that more hobby than business.
And he is the one starting the company, putting his own money into it not us. He makes all the choices, and is targetting more than just us, he wants to sell people outside of what we consider the community.
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Trying to offer a differentiated product line is also a great way to ensure you never get off the ground. It takes a lot of money to do this stuff. He should focus on what has the best chances right now.
This is true, and it may well be that an x86 system is the best way to get started. I'd certainly be more than happy to wait and give them a chance to get into the swing of things before pursuing more exotic options; the problem is, it doesn't seem like they have any intention of doing so, or indeed that they're aware of any of the segments of the Amiga community at all. That may change (I certainly hope it does,) but so far it doesn't look like it.
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I have answered your question several times, you dont seem to actually be reading my posts.
He doesn't have money to do very much hardware development, noone does.
Natami and others are dream projects that more hobby than business.
And he is the one starting the company, putting his own money into it not us. He makes all the choices, and is targetting more than just us, he wants to sell people outside of what we consider the community.
OK, let's start again all civil.
The hardware development for Minimig and FPGA Arcade have already been done and they already exist as functioning models with a development team behind them.
He can sell all he wants outside of the Amiga community using the Commodore brand and he has the potential market of old Amiga users to sell to using custom cases and FPGA based "Amigas" running OS3.x.
The big issue is this Workbench 5 rubbish and promoting AmigaForver type products as the "new generation" Amiga OS when it clearly isn't.
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takehome,
Then you have AI, the one that didn't pay its bills and went out of business and thus losing its right to buy back the OS. Is this current AI supposed to be the same company?
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Trying to offer a differentiated product line is also a great way to ensure you never get off the ground. It takes a lot of money to do this stuff. He should focus on what has the best chances right now.
Unfortunately that's NOT true. Where all things are equal, as it is in the PC market, product differentiation is critical to success. Once again, I urge people to read the link on New Coke (http://www.powerhomebiz.com/052008/power-brand-new-coke.htm) I provided.
Providing a retro-case does provided such differentiation, but has limited appeal. Providing a name-brand, OTOH, that isn't what people expect provides disappointment.
@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.
Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?
@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:
Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?
@ Those arguing "sock puppets."
Knock it off, please?
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Also this line seems to imply you think CUSA is also a scam? I would say that is completely off basis. CUSA has not asked for money and not delivered product (CyberstormG3, Boxer etc). CUSA has not engaged in coupon schemes ($50 coupon, Party Pack etc). CUSA has demonstrated they are not a thinly veiled hoax
Not yet. We are talking about what they have done up to this point. So far it doesn't look good.
What will they do in the future? No one knows obviously, but if everything they have done is an indicator, then it doesn't look good.
How have they demonstrated they are not thinly veiled hoax exactly? I used to read many reports like yours about AI. People actually visited the AI office, played "foosball" their, saw some prototype stuff demonstrated, yet I think we can all see AI was a scam.
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However, what do you think of C-USA's Workbench 5 marketing? Perhaps they could call it "Morph Workbench 5"?
Wait... we're talking about CUSA using AROS. Anyway, this is where someone looking for success has got it right. Marketing micro's has always been a numbers game. For those involved that *wanted* to succeed en masse that is. Obviously not the agenda of the X1000 or SAM people, but ahem.... Hardware specs aside, let's just focus on OS's for a minute. Mac is up to 10.6, Windoze is at what... 7? MorphOS is at 2.6. AROS/Icaros is at 1.x?
Marketing wise, it's typical that they'll want to continue the practice of padding *any* numbers they can a bit. Average Joe that's out to purchase a new Commodore computer (not us by a long shot, but the people that are going to substantially monetarily supporting their products) is not going to be keen on low numbers or builds. Perception is everything. So yeah, from a marketing or viability standpoint, a Workbench 5 makes more sense than to call it 4.2 as Joe Blow hasn't been keeping up on the soap opera that has been Amiga trademarking and licensing these past 17+ years. If you're thinking Joe Blow may not even be interested in these products at all, I can tell you with certainty that there are a TON of people here in the States that have fond memories of their C64's. MANY of which never even heard of an Amiga computer! lol While that may sound F'd up to us, it is what it is.
Not sure if this was exactly the angle you were thinking, just trying to put things into a simplistic marketing perspective. Something the Commodore of yore hardly could be bothered with. :lol:
-edited- my post slightly. Not sure what to make of the 'Commodore' or 'Workbench' usage marketing wise in relation to AROS, but I guess 'Commodore' would be better than 'GEOS'. lmao I'm amazed at the number of people I've met throughout the years that never heard of Amiga, but knew what a PET, Vic-20 and C64 was. Hell, even the Plus/4 got more airtime than the Amiga ever did thanks to those damn infomercials!
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@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.
Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other scrapes gunk off an animal hide, wraps it around himself, and calls it "fire." "This is a fire, rock-for-brain!" the first caveman proclaims. "That's a blanket."
Names matter when they indicate substantially different things.
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@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, eating beef, while the other sits in the distance eating cow shit complaining that THIS cow shit isn't the same as his mate's t-bone steak.
Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you fed?
Yes.
@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:
Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?
Yes, when they seem hell bent on destroying Amiga NG.
@ Those arguing "sock puppets."
Knock it off, please?
Sooty is not amused.
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Wait... we're talking about CUSA using AROS. Anyway, this is where someone looking for success has got it right. Marketing micro's has always been a numbers game. For those involved that *wanted* to succeed en masse that is. Obviously not the agenda of the X1000 or SAM people, but ahem.... Hardware specs aside, let's just focus on OS's for a minute. Mac is up to 10.6, Windoze is at what... 7? MorphOS is at 2.6. AROS/Icaros is at 1.x?
Marketing wise, it's typical that they'll want to continue the practice of padding *any* numbers they can a bit. Average Joe that's out to purchase a new Commodore computer (not us by a long shot, but the people that are going to substantially monetarily supporting their products) is not going to be keen on low numbers or builds. Perception is everything. So yeah, from a marketing or viability standpoint, a Workbench 5 makes more sense than to call it 4.2 as Joe Blow hasn't been keeping up on the soap opera that has been Amiga trademarking and licensing these past 17+ years.
Not sure if this was exactly the angle you were thinking, just trying to put things into a simplistic marketing perspective. Something the Commodore of yore hardly could be bothered with. :lol:
Commodore OS5 would make even more sense as I would assume that people would expect a Commodore OS on Commodore computers and Commodore is more remembered amoungst the "not we" that Amiga.
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@ CommodoreJohn:
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other scrapes gunk off an animal hide, wraps it around himself, and calls it "fire." "This is a fire, rock-for-brain!" the first caveman proclaims. "That's a blanket."
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to those who were arguing Aros/MorphOS/OS 4.0 weren't "Amiga." In this instance, they are all "fire."
@ Darrin:
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, eating beef, while the other sits in the distance eating cow shit complaining that THIS cow shit isn't the same as his mate's t-bone steak.
Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you fed?
So, changing the analogy to something completely different proves the original analogy wrong?
Yes, when they seem hell bent on destroying Amiga NG.
The operative word here being "seem." "You're honor, the accused 'seems' to have killed the victim" just won't hold up in a court of law.
Now, before you tear into me as you have Dammy and others, please reread the thread and note that I'm in the Don't-Call-It-Amiga camp.
Sooty is not amused.
Does this mean that I too am a sock puppet?
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@ CommodoreJohn:@ Darrin:
So, changing the analogy to something completely different proves the original analogy wrong?
Your original anaology was critically flawed. It needed "fixing".
The operative word here being "seem." "You're honor, the accused 'seems' to have killed the victim" just won't hold up in a court of law.
Ah, I see you have called the police out to your house because your neighbour has threatened to kill you? This is a serious waste of police time, please call us back AFTER he has killed you!
Now, before you tear into me as you have Dammy and others, please reread the thread and note that I'm in the Don't-Call-It-Amiga camp.
Does this mean that I too am a sock puppet?
I have read it, but it doesn't excuse C-USA's actions.
You can be "Sue". :)
(Actually, as an American you're probably not familiar with Sooty & Sweep... and Sue)...
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They have a legal right to use it as they see fit. They hold a license and despite threats, there has been no legal action by Hyperion.
legally shaky ground though, don't you think? Licensing out IP for 'workbench5' when the court has told you you've lost the rights to 'Amiga OS4' and 'workbench 4', and Hyperion has the right to continue dev on that product (presumably to other version numbers).
As for Hyperion, no product, no legal action. When commodore they have something to show, i'm sure Hyperion will have something to say. As i'm a classic user, I can just get out the popcorn and watch more amiga soap opera.
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@ Those arguing it's not an Amiga
Two cavemen sitting in a cave, one next to a fire, keeping warm, while the other sits in the distance complaining that THIS fire didn't come from the lightning bolt that created the First Fire.
Does it really matter where it came from as long as it keeps you warm?
@ Those arguing C=USA's ethics:
Like or not, they were granted the legal right. What's more important? That they have the right to wield the flame? Or whether or not they use thier flame to build or destroy?
Excuse me but a Windows compatible stock x86 motherboard running x86 PC Linux and an Amiga emulator that can only emulate AGA and 680x0 at best is NOT a new Amiga. It is a virtual recreation of a 1992 released model of a real Amiga.
IF they hadn't marketed their machines as actual successors to real Amigas from the 90s they wouldn't be getting so much flack, and deserved it is too. Workbench 5 my ass.
Truth is, this 'new Amiga' is actually inferior to a PPC upgrade G4 based A4000D with Toccata 16 bit sound card. Can you play Wipeout 2097 like a real 1992 A4000D with a 1994/5 PPC card and BlizzardVision? Nope! So it is not an Amiga (it is a custom PC case which runs Windows/x86 Linux and not OS4/MOS/WB 3.1) and even then as proved above it can never even rival the best of what 1990s real Amigas had to offer.
That is why there is so much flack for C= USA. And there is no positive argument for them in this area. Unless they start marketing their creations they intend to produce as nothing more than novelty Amiga lookalike PCs to run WinUAE/UAE on they deserve all the flack they get.
If they want to be taken seriously the least they could do is hire the guy trying to port AROS to PS3 with drivers for the hypervisor and then pick up the phone and negotiate a price for PS3 slim motherboards and stick those in their new cases. Or NatAmi come to that. Anything else is just a PC in disguise with a massive markup for what is just a novelty keyboard and novelty case that has bugger all to do with Amiga actual from 80s/90s technically :)
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OK, I just spent some time reading the 43-page settlement between AI and Hyperion. It's clear to me that AI cannot market or allow a licensee to market an operating system with software architecture that is substantially similar to AmigaOS. That's why no C=USA "Amiga" running AROS. (Though certainly an end user can install AROS if it will run on the hardware.)
The settlement agreement also stipulates that neither AI nor any licensee can market a product that is billed as "an Amiga operating system."
So who here wants an "Amiga" that doesn't run an Amiga or Amiga-like operating system? And why, for goodness sake?
Does calling it an Amiga and using the name "Workbench 5" on a Linux distro that has been redressed to resemble the Amiga operating system violate the settlement agreement? I really don't know for sure, though it sure smacks of violating the spirit. My layman's opinion (that's all it is, I will admit) on the matter is that the area is a gray one.
But if Commodore itself (the one run into the ground by Mehdi Ali and associates) had survived to sell Amiga-branded computers running Windows or Linux and not "an Amiga operating system" I would howl and "harp" and keep on doing it.
"Amiga" means something.
And the Amiga operating system *IS* a continuation.
I gotta go to work. See y'all later.
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If they want to be taken seriously the least they could do is hire the guy trying to port AROS to PS3 with drivers for the hypervisor and then pick up the phone and negotiate a price for PS3 slim motherboards and stick those in their new cases. Or NatAmi come to that.
Maybe they should invent a time machine? Or Warp drive? because that's as realistic as your proposal(PS3 boards or Natami).
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Well, the BS resume he publishedd doesn't seem to reflect that. As far as we can tell, he inherited a furniture store and tried to set up a couple satellite TV installer companies. That doesn't make him a mover and a shaker in most peoples books.
The other part is management capabilities. Barry has never had a business failure, he has the basic instinct of what will work and what will fail. Unlike a lot of business owners who trying to make it, Barry has already made it and could be retired for the rest of his life. This is his passion, this has capture his interest and he can throw himself into it with out the worry of losing everything. His pockets run that deep as his connections run extremely deep world wide. Barry is a different animal then what we have seen since the days of Jack Tramiel.
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Maybe they should invent a time machine? Or Warp drive? because that's as realistic as your proposal(PS3 boards or Natami).
It's a pity you weren't around during the microcomputer boom, Wolfy - I'm sure you'd have talked them out of all that senseless innovating in no time flat :/
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@ Darrin:
Your original anaology was critically flawed. It needed "fixing".
As I pointed out to CommodoreJohn, my original analogy was refering to those arguing that AROS/MorphOS/OS4 wasn't Amiga.
Regardless, yours was a strawman and this from a person who is effectively on the same side as you.
Ah, I see you have called the police out to your house because your neighbour has threatened to kill you? This is a serious waste of police time, please call us back AFTER he has killed you!
You're switching your analogies again. :) I think "You're honor, the accuse 'seems' to have killed me!" has even less a chance in court. (I can play this game too. :) )
This is why some people have argued with you to give them a chance. (This, once again, coming from someone who is effectively on the same side as you. I don't like what they're doing either, but as this is early on plans may change. Only time will tell.)
@ Digiman:Excuse me but a Windows compatible stock x86 motherboard running x86 PC Linux and an Amiga emulator that can only emulate AGA and 680x0 at best is NOT a new Amiga. It is a virtual recreation of a 1992 released model of a real Amiga.
Looks like this mistake is gonna keep coming back to haunt me. :) Once again: I was referring to those arguing about AROS vs. MorphOS vs. OS4.0. I genuinely DON'T care who is the keeper of the flame, only whether or not we too can have access to it.
Other than that, I only disagree with this point:That is why there is so much flack for C= USA. And there is no positive argument for them in this area. Unless they start marketing their creations they intend to produce as nothing more than novelty Amiga lookalike PCs to run WinUAE/UAE on they deserve all the flack they get.
There is a positive argument for them here: if it doesn't carry the Amiga legacy, then don't call it "Amiga." Hence my continued points about "New Coke."
I wouldn't have a problem with AROS or Anubis, or even MorphOS or OS4 on these machines. Otherwise, don't call it "Amiga."
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OK, let's start again all civil.
The hardware development for Minimig and FPGA Arcade have already been done and they already exist as functioning models with a development team behind them.
He can sell all he wants outside of the Amiga community using the Commodore brand and he has the potential market of old Amiga users to sell to using custom cases and FPGA based "Amigas" running OS3.x.
The big issue is this Workbench 5 rubbish and promoting AmigaForver type products as the "new generation" Amiga OS when it clearly isn't.
Ive been civil almost this whole time, you are the one calling people scum and sock puppets. I do welcome civility, but at this point I dont really expect it..
You are going to have to post some links to your claims of what Workbench 5 and Amiga Forever. I've checked out CUSAs site and I see them calling the line a "reboot and reimagining" and saying that Workbench 5 is a stable OS, they dont say what it is. Where do they say it is new generation?
They do say it is modern and has a Microsoft campatible office suite which I would assume means it is linux and open office.
nothing here:
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_OS.aspx
or here:
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Amiga.aspx
I thnk you are reading alot into what they are saying.
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OK, I just spent some time reading the 43-page settlement between AI and Hyperion.
That is actually the whole point:
Hyperion has NO legal standing against NotC=USA whatsoever. If Amino gave them a licence they shouldn't given out then it's just Amino who are in breech of that contract not NotC=USA.
So Hyperion would be forced to sue Amino over it, if they win (after another 2-3 years ) Amino has to revoke NotC=USA's licence, at which point NotC=USA might choose to sue Amino dragging out the whole for a few extra years.
Royal clusterf....
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Settlements are subject to interpretation, interoperation is done in a court of law, courts of law make decision on which lawyers can make the best arguments. Barry has more money for lawyers than does Hyperion. Best guess is that there's enough wiggle room to say that Workbench 5 and AmigaOS 4 don't compete in the same market or for the same customers. They aren't even in the same league, an order of 250 X1000s is a standard order, I'm willing to bet that a standard order of Amiga 1000x is 100 times that.
As to your second point, there are maybe 5000 people to whom Amiga means something. We're too small to be a voice in too big a world. I won't buy C=USA products, I wouldn't authorise purchases of C=USA products in the area of my university that I have that authority over, but realistically that means nothing to C=USA, those tiny number of computers won't make or break the company. Realistically they are insignificant.
OK, I just spent some time reading the 43-page settlement between AI and Hyperion. It's clear to me that AI cannot market or allow a licensee to market an operating system with software architecture that is substantially similar to AmigaOS. That's why no C=USA "Amiga" running AROS. (Though certainly an end user can install AROS if it will run on the hardware.)
The settlement agreement also stipulates that neither AI nor any licensee can market a product that is billed as "an Amiga operating system."
So who here wants an "Amiga" that doesn't run an Amiga or Amiga-like operating system? And why, for goodness sake?
Does calling it an Amiga and using the name "Workbench 5" on a Linux distro that has been redressed to resemble the Amiga operating system violate the settlement agreement? I really don't know for sure, though it sure smacks of violating the spirit. My layman's opinion (that's all it is, I will admit) on the matter is that the area is a gray one.
But if Commodore itself (the one run into the ground by Mehdi Ali and associates) had survived to sell Amiga-branded computers running Windows or Linux and not "an Amiga operating system" I would howl and "harp" and keep on doing it.
"Amiga" means something.
And the Amiga operating system *IS* a continuation.
I gotta go to work. See y'all later.
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I wouldn't have a problem with AROS or Anubis, or even MorphOS or OS4 on these machines. Otherwise, don't call it "Amiga."
You can install AROS on any x86 for free... that means you'll be able to install it on future Amigas as well.
When C=USA originally announced their intentions of developing AROS, I was strictly against it. It is a dead platform, as any other AmigaOID around. You'd have to pour dozens of millions of dollars into it to even have a remote chance of being succesful in mainstream. In doing so, you would introduce things that were never present in the original AOS, like memory protection, which means several things... first, it would loose some of it responsiveness because of that and secondly, it would basically become a new OS with very few connections whatsoever to the original. It would loose probably most of it Amiga-like features in the process... It simply doesn't make any sense next to a perfectly working kernel like Linux + GNU tools.
Original AmigaOS and it's derivatives are a dead platform(but they remain a nice hobby OS). It was helluva OS back in it's days, but by 1990s even people in Commodore were perfectly aware of it's faults. That's why several other options were considered even back then and that's why Gateway wanted QNX/Linux in 1999.
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Since I've been pointing to New Coke as part of my arguments towards the mistakes C=USA is making, I'll just say this: that's kinda like saying, "sure, just buy new Coke and then pour Classic Coke into it."
Sorry, Wolf, that just doesn't work for me. You're so-called "dead OS" is the only thing left of the Commodore name that is of any interest to me. So, without it, I, as an early adopter, am out. I could care less.
When C=USA originally announced their intentions of developing AROS, I was strictly against it. It is a dead platform, as any other AmigaOID around. You'd have to pour dozens of millions of dollars into it to even have a remote chance of being succesful in mainstream. In doing so, you would introduce things that were never present in the original AOS, like memory protection, which means several things... first, it would loose some of it responsiveness because of that and secondly, it would basically become a new OS with very few connections whatsoever to the original. It would loose probably most of it Amiga-like features in the process... It simply doesn't make any sense next to a perfectly working kernel like Linux + GNU tools.
And this is where you keep getting into trouble, Wolf, no disrespect intended. Telling people to accept as dead that which they want to see living again is like rubbing salt in a wound. You're only going to get more flack if you keep suggesting it.
That said, and as I've suggested to Leo on the Commodore-Amiga forum, support AROS, make it ready for prime-time by donating to it would go a long way in terms of community out-reach, but telling it's dead is only gonna make them turn away from you.
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And this is where you keep getting into trouble, Wolf, no disrespect intended. Telling people to accept as dead that which they want to see living again is like rubbing salt in a wound. You're only going to get more flack if you keep suggesting it.
That said, and as I've suggested to Leo on the Commodore-Amiga forum, support AROS, make it ready for prime-time by donating to it would go a long way in terms of community out-reach, but telling it's dead is only gonna make them turn away from you.
If it is disrespectful to say the obvious truth(that AOS or any related OS is, commercially speaking, a dead platform), then so be it...
I like it(AOS) too, but that doesn't mean I'll be oblivious to simple facts. DEAD!
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I find it funny that Barryites are making him the next Steve Jobs and those who don't like him see him as a furniture store simpleton. There is a middle ground here folks.
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@EDanaII
New coke doesn't apply, classic coke was a living product, Classic Amiga is not.
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I could not read the last 6 or so pages of this thread.
I do wish that cusa would have modified the c64x so that is was evident in that it was not the original but had much similarities. I hope they do it with the A1200 case if it gets made.
We do not own commodore or amiga so it really is none of our business what they do with it.
I do hope this will add to what we already have and make it better in some way.
I guess you can not make everyone happy.
I hope this can bring back commodore trade shows or get them to a trade show.
Maybe we can have user groups again.
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@ Persia:
I happen to be in the middle-ground, Persia. I don't like what they're doing, but I don't think what they're doing is "evil." I would like them to stay away from the Amiga name, but other than that? I don't care.
New coke doesn't apply, classic coke was a living product, Classic Amiga is not.
I disagree. This isn't about whether or not Amiga is living or dead. It's about what early adopters expect from the product. And since C=USA has a strong need to differentiate their products from the all the other PC providers out there, it could make all the difference in their success or failure.
@ Wolf to the Moon
You've missed the point, Wolf. Regardless of whether or not what you say is true -- I disagree with the proposition -- getting others who don't (won't) agree with you is only gonna get you in more trouble.
To be clear from my PoV: AmigaOS as it stands now is not commercially viable. An up-to-date AmigaOS has a better chance. But telling people it's OK to call it Amiga 'cause AmigaOS is dead is only gonna get people arguing with you. You can't prove that proposition any more than they can.
Regardless, if it doesn't bear the legacy, it shouldn't bare the name. Just ask the creators of New Coke.
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I'll repeat my offer btw. I'll put an "amiga" sticker on my PC, and you guys can buy it for 500 dollars, E-UAE included. Or I'll trade you for an A4000 ;0
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Tablets are just a computer with onscreen keyboard and touchscreen pointing deveice. Original, but not totally original, and not my point.
Releasing a totally new computer platform it very expensive, and difficult and likely to fail. Natami and the others have the deck stacked against them. Not to say that they will fail, but if the a5000, access stuff, boXer and others are any indication...
And the most popular tablet (that most might argue kickstarted the market) was the iPad which is a new computer platform running an OS not seen before 2007. The other tablets, Android, came about even later. Was it expensive to develop, probably, and both of these are backed by companies with pretty big bankrolls. But to say nope, no new platforms can succeed is flying in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Dreams and drive do only get you so far. But thus far tablets are protected from Microsoft because of them being asleep at the wheel again which has allowed them to succeed. Amiga wont succeed and Commodore USA wont either unless they can find a place where MS and Windows isnt.
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Indeed. Find a niche. There's more to computers than desktop office machines, and there's more to "success" than becoming microsoft or intel.
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Costs were explained and invoices were shown. There is real money being put into developing this product, costs are in the 6 figures for the case and keyboard alone.
Click HERE (http://www.amiga.org/forums/album.php?albumid=116) to see the photo album for this visit.
Imagine what gem C-USA could come up with if they threw a 6 figure bounty into the community to 'Amigafy' Haiku or Syllable?
Also it would be cool if they could ship the 8-bit Dark Side of the Moon with the C64!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euLdKW_Db1k
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To be clear from my PoV: AmigaOS as it stands now is not commercially viable. An up-to-date AmigaOS has a better chance.
an up to date Amiga OS would need billions to make commercially successful... It is as viable as is space elevator.
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They really need to ditch the 'Email' and 'Internet' keys. With so few keys on the thing to start with, it's stupid to waste two of them on redundant functions.
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an up to date Amiga OS would need billions to make commercially successful... It is as viable as is space elevator.
You say that about anything that isn't "build an x86 system and put Linux on it." Is there some kind of secret tax the rest of us don't know about on computers running something other than Linux or Windows?
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Imagine what gem C-USA could come up with if they threw a 6 figure bounty into the community to 'Amigafy' Haiku or Syllable?
Sure... let's amigafy the crap of them and make it even less suitable for mainstream :D
In the process, we should also create 3 similar OSes, spread FUD between them, and choose a CPU architecture that is very expensive and has very little future on the desktop market. Then, to make things interesting, we shall announce a MAP... which will be a even more expensive computer running the same OS and EOL CPU and missing the same features. And it will be GREAT!
Count me in for that :D
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You say that about anything that isn't "build an x86 system and put Linux on it." Is there some kind of secret tax the rest of us don't know about on computers running something other than Linux or Windows?
bacause that's the way things are... even the very biggest companies like Apple, Google, Nokia, Intel, Samsung use Linux/UNIX as a base.
Like any true amigan, one must state the obvious. If they are so successful... then they must be
a)less technically advanced then Amiga
b)using less elegant architecture
c)M!CROSOFT!!!1!!!
d)all of the above
:lol:
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If it's called an Amiga it should run AmigaOS, Moochie would agreed.
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legally shaky ground though, don't you think? Licensing out IP for 'workbench5' when the court has told you you've lost the rights to 'Amiga OS4' and 'workbench 4', and Hyperion has the right to continue dev on that product (presumably to other version numbers).
Court said no such thing.
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OK, I just spent some time reading the 43-page settlement between AI and Hyperion. It's clear to me that AI cannot market or allow a licensee to market an operating system with software architecture that is substantially similar to AmigaOS.
You missed the rest of the sentence that quote came from and it's extremely important since it a qualifier in nature.
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Sure... let's amigafy the crap of them and make it even less suitable for mainstream :D
I agree that for the mainstream, they need the best Linux distro they can get/modify.
However, for little money, they could scoop a core 'alternative Amiga' community who would want to run on Commodore Amiga.
By contrast, if they have ONLY Linux, what is keeping Linux people on the C-USA product? It's not a 'community' but a tiny subset of the Linux user community.
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I agree that for the mainstream, they need the best Linux distro they can get/modify.
However, for little money, they could scoop a core 'alternative Amiga' community who would want to run on Commodore Amiga.
By contrast, if they have ONLY Linux, what is keeping Linux people on the C-USA product? It's not a 'community' but a tiny subset of the Linux user community.
Leo said something about still wanting to support AROS(and bounties), so you may yet get your wish.
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You missed the rest of the sentence that quote came from and it's extremely important since it a qualifier in nature.
i'd be genuinly interested in knowing the rest of that.
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Well, the BS resume he publishedd doesn't seem to reflect that.
Perhaps you should reread Red's post: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=612887&postcount=1
As far as we can tell, he inherited a furniture store and tried to set up a couple satellite TV installer companies.
No, if you did the research, you would see Homecraft was a recent company compared to Cabletech which he and his brother created an ran until they sold it with 180 stores nation wide. They produced their own equiptment, btw.
That doesn't make him a mover and a shaker in most peoples books.
I think once the TV commercials hit and you see whom C=USA is working with, you will see only a slice of the entire picture compared to what Barry spent hours explaining to us.
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If it's called an Amiga it should run AmigaOS, Moochie would agreed.
It can't by legal agreement between AI and Hyperion.
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You missed the rest of the sentence that quote came from and it's extremely important since it a qualifier in nature.
Is it the the clause that reads "to the extent that such Software Architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States..." or something else?
Forgive me for not quoting more directly. The copy of the settlement that was just sent me is a PDF in a form that doesn't allow me to easily copy and paste.
I'm a mere layman trying to understand the settlement and how it may pertain to the situation at hand. You can see where I stand on the matter :-) but in the case of reading the settlement I'm just trying to understand what the legal situation is.
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an up to date Amiga OS would need billions to make commercially successful... It is as viable as is space elevator.
If I've told you once, I've told you a billion times: don't exaggerate! (And you are exaggerating.)
However, the gist of my argument still isn't they should do an AmigaOS. I'd welcome it if they would, however: if it doesn't have AmigaOS, don't call it Amiga. There are expectations that come with that name that the cannot fulfill, whatever the reason.
Leo said something about still wanting to support AROS(and bounties), so you may yet get your wish.
Which is all some of us are asking.
@ Dammy:It can't by legal agreement between AI and Hyperion.
All the more reason to leave the name alone, then.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a billion times: don't exaggerate! (And you are exaggerating.)
I'm not exaggerating... first you'd have to rewrite the entire OS, because the current ones are stuck in the 90s in basic features. Then you'd have to get hardware manufacturers to write drivers for it. Then you'd have to write some apps, pay other companies to port theirs to your platform. Then you'd have to market it, which alone would cost you a very large amount of money(commercials on TV, newspapers, internet). After all that, you're still a long way of being sure you will succeed in attracting a lrge enough user base. So my billions are spot on the money :)
However, the gist of my argument still isn't they should do an AmigaOS. I'd welcome it if they would, however: if it doesn't have AmigaOS, don't call it Amiga. There are expectations that come with that name that the cannot fulfill, whatever the reason.
Workbench X will be a Amiga OS. It will run on Amigas and it will be produced by Commodore. Thus, it becomes an Amiga OS. Your argument that it will not be related to any of the current amiga like OSes is valid.
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@ Dammy:
All the more reason to leave the name alone, then.
Yup, AmigaOS will not be used in conjunction with C=USA Amigas.
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Workbench X will be a Amiga OS. It will run on Amigas and it will be produced by Commodore. Thus, it becomes an Amiga OS. Your argument that it will not be related to any of the current amiga like OSes is valid.
We don't know the name of the follow on OS yet. As I have said before, I'm not overly interested in WB5 but the follow on that has my attention.
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Workbench X will be a Amiga OS. It will run on Amigas and it will be produced by Commodore. Thus, it becomes an Amiga OS. Your argument that it will not be related to any of the current amiga like OSes is valid.
It is indeed valid, although I suspect that was a typo on your part ;P Simply sticking a name on something doesn't make it a different thing.
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The entire concept that this company is going to do mainstream television advertising is quite honestly the most silly thing I've heard yet, regardless of who their partners are. I always knew the C= fanatics here were sheep like, but really - setting cash aside for a TV ad campaign that targets C= fans, you're preaching to the wrong choir, lol. The TV ad idea is a preposterous waste of money. 99.99% of the computer using mainstream market doesn't want a clickety clackity 80's-esque computing experience, much less a Linux/emulation one, or one with Win installed on it that looks like it has a gimped keyboard. I hope they've got an elegant solution to that one (Win on that C 64 remake). If they don't, that keyboard on that new 64 would be absolutely useless to a guy like me that uses keycombos in windows more than a mouse.
No one but a C= fan will have any interest in these things unless C-USA is damned near willing to give them away.
Thanks for the report, Red. Gave me a little optimism for you C64 guys out there, at least the thing seems to look the part. I'd just personally take the 3 hours and couple hundred bucks that it would need and make a 64/Mini-ITX casemod, but I admittedly have no interest in the C 64. I wish the interview gave me some hope for their Amiga efforts, but I'm afraid I don't see a single innovative thing they are proposing.
That being said, I'm likely not their target market. For a couple hundred bucks I can build a UAE rig, AROS rig, or buy a Mac and register MorphOS. I hope their pricing is attractive enough that their Amiga offerings will be viable, but for the life of me I can't figure out how they will be in the day and age of $250 Bestbuy PC's that you can simply install a linux distro and UAE on yourself. I don't see a darned thing I couldn't do for myself, I suppose. I still see it as cashing in on a brandname that should have been left to sleep peacefully years ago.
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an up to date Amiga OS would need billions to make commercially successful... It is as viable as is space elevator.
Amiga is something that was once successful, and is no longer.
And an orbital lift tower (i'm a brit, so it's the law that I don't use the word elevator :) )is something we defineltly need to have, and to make viable with all expediancy.
back on topic though, I need to read that 43 page doc, or at least be pointed to a thread about it, can anyone help?
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And an orbital lift tower (i'm a brit, so it's the law that I don't use the word elevator :) )is something we defineltly need to have, and to make viable with all expediancy.
100% with you on that :)
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@redrumloa
Thanks for your thoughtful report. But still no interest here in PCs in disguise, or in the CUSA vision of the new "Amiga." Even worse is their lack of ethics in marketing, stealing artwork, hyping, etc. There are too many better Amiga choices out there already (fortunately).
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an up to date Amiga OS would need billions to make commercially successful... It is as viable as is space elevator.
Citation needed.
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Hyperion won in court, that's good enough for me.
No they didn't. They settled. And how you can regard the terms in settlement a victory for hyperion is beyond me...
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Citation needed.
What do you mean? Wolftothemoon said it, so it must be true! He even talked about all the things you'd need to do and made up some numbers to go with them!
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What do you mean? Wolftothemoon said it, so it must be true! He even talked about all the things you'd need to do and made up some numbers to go with them!
I was just gonna ask the workers on an up to date AmigaOS (say, Piru) where their cut of that billion dollar pie is...
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Maybe they should invent a time machine? Or Warp drive? because that's as realistic as your proposal(PS3 boards or Natami).
Putting NatAmi inside a PC case which looks like an A3000? :roflmao: if that is unrealistic then there is no hope C= USA will produce anything other than some bullshit low-end PC x86 motherboard in a Amiga lookalike case and stick on crappy Linux and UAE that can't even play PPC 266mhz games for Amiga ;)
Did you speak to Sony? Do you know for a fact they would never ever let you purchase their motherboard to expand their market share at a price of their choosing? No. Which is the same really for all pro C=USA trolls in here...they know nothing and yet they think they know everything ;)
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@ Darrin:
As I pointed out to CommodoreJohn, my original analogy was refering to those arguing that AROS/MorphOS/OS4 wasn't Amiga.
Regardless, yours was a strawman and this from a person who is effectively on the same side as you.
You're switching your analogies again. :) I think "You're honor, the accuse 'seems' to have killed me!" has even less a chance in court. (I can play this game too. :) )
This is why some people have argued with you to give them a chance. (This, once again, coming from someone who is effectively on the same side as you. I don't like what they're doing either, but as this is early on plans may change. Only time will tell.)
@ Digiman:
Looks like this mistake is gonna keep coming back to haunt me. :) Once again: I was referring to those arguing about AROS vs. MorphOS vs. OS4.0. I genuinely DON'T care who is the keeper of the flame, only whether or not we too can have access to it.
Other than that, I only disagree with this point:
There is a positive argument for them here: if it doesn't carry the Amiga legacy, then don't call it "Amiga." Hence my continued points about "New Coke."
I wouldn't have a problem with AROS or Anubis, or even MorphOS or OS4 on these machines. Otherwise, don't call it "Amiga."
Sorry my mistake :)
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I'll repeat my offer btw. I'll put an "amiga" sticker on my PC, and you guys can buy it for 500 dollars, E-UAE included. Or I'll trade you for an A4000 ;0
People who own A4000s aren't silly enough to fall for this C=USA stuff ;)
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Putting NatAmi inside a PC case which looks like an A3000? :roflmao: if that is unrealistic then there is no hope C= USA will produce anything other than some bullshit low-end PC x86 motherboard in a Amiga lookalike case and stick on crappy Linux and UAE that can't even play PPC 266mhz games for Amiga ;)
Did you speak to Sony? Do you know for a fact they would never ever let you purchase their motherboard to expand their market share at a price of their choosing? No. Which is the same really for all pro C=USA trolls in here...they know nothing and yet they think they know everything ;)
That's not the point... would a NATAMI in a Amiga case sell? That's the point?
Sure, you could sell a few hundreds FPGAs... do not think it would justify the investment.
Why would Sony let any other company sell PS3 rebranded? That's crazy... especially considering what they are doing to those guys that broke the "encryption"
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Sure... let's amigafy the crap of them and make it even less suitable for mainstream :D
In the process, we should also create 3 similar OSes, spread FUD between them, and choose a CPU architecture that is very expensive and has very little future on the desktop market. Then, to make things interesting, we shall announce a MAP... which will be a even more expensive computer running the same OS and EOL CPU and missing the same features. And it will be GREAT!
Count me in for that :D
Well why would anyone choose to transcode for x86 from scratch?
1. We have AROS on a slow road to getting there.
2. We have Coldfire CPUs which you can completely rewrite kickstart and workbench to only use legal Coldfire M/L instructions.
Coldfire will be here for a decade, probably longer than AMD looking at their profit/loss records this century. And AROS is well on it's way if you have to have x86
PC Linux running on a PC Windows motherboard will NEVER be Amiga. Is it really that difficult to grasp? Are their really people who are so mentally challenged that they can even attempt to argue it is? :roflmao:
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People who own A4000s aren't silly enough to fall for this C=USA stuff ;)
nono, its marketed exclusively through Commodore Amiga Iran.
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That's not the point... would a NATAMI in a Amiga case sell? That's the point?
Sure, you could sell a few hundreds FPGAs... do not think it would justify the investment.
Why would Sony let any other company sell PS3 rebranded? That's crazy... especially considering what they are doing to those guys that broke the "encryption"
Gotcha!
That is the ENTIRE point, NatAMI is Amiga++ with SuperAGA chipset. A PC motherboard is a PC motherboard and that's that. If you uninstall UAE on this C=USA 'Amiga' and double click on some executable files transferred from Deluxe Paint program disk? Bugger all mate because it's a PC.
As for Sony hammering down hard on people who hacked their security codes vs A company asking Sony to officially licence their technology for use in a computer model (and hence have a legal OS Blu-Ray disc supplied for use with their technology) is not even in the same ball park. Methinks you never had any experience of business :)
As for what sells? If I stick a C= sticker on some rubber dog shit and it sells millions as a novelty icon (mascot for C= USA Amiga 1000? :roflmao: ) does that mean it is a real C= computer? Didn't think so ;)
I love this thread, it is the thread that keeps on giving [user IDs of lunatic blinkered C=USA fanatics]
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nono, its marketed exclusively through Commodore Amiga Iran.
Can I purchase a licence to distribute them through Commodore China too then? Might as well cut out the middleman and go straight to the source of these rubbish motherboards :roflmao:
Ooooh and Commodore China Computer Products = CCCP initials haha awesome logo in the making indeed :)
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Well, the specific processors used in the PS3 may be an exclusive license, but PPC is still manufactured by IBM for all sorts of stuff, so just make an offer for 100.000 boards or whatever, and you can do whatever the heck you want :)
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That isn't the problem. It is seeing the Amiga name abused that I have issues with.
My thoughts exactly, and I struggle to see how anybody who calls themselves an "Amiga fan" could be happy about this. Relaunching the "Amiga" as a pc running Windows is a stab through the heart for any real Amiga fans who know and love the machine/os they grew up with. It's a massive insult, imagine how Mac owners would react in the same situation, some pc clone maker starts making "Macs" and shoving Windows 7 on them.
I cannot believe this Barry guy is being so insulting and abusive to the Amiga name/legacy and still has the nerve to call himself a commodore/amiga fan. Os4 might not be the "real amiga" to some, but at least it's the nearest thing we have, and actually runs amiga apps, not just a generic faceless Dell-esq pc clone in an Amiga badged case, how much that saddens me, and what an un-dignified and un-classy end to the Amiga legacy :-(
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Can I purchase a licence to distribute them through Commodore China too then? Might as well cut out the middleman and go straight to the source of these rubbish motherboards :roflmao:
Ooooh and Commodore China Computer Products = CCCP initials haha awesome logo in the making indeed :)
The marketing writes itself
"Commodore China. A quarter of the world can't be wrong"
For those familiar with Commodore history:
"Commodore, we do market to the classes. The working classes"
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This is 2011, nothing we have is related other than by license to the real amiga. But we can fight and squable and carry on about stuff we don't like, or we can relax, and like what we like and let others do the same.
Simply not true, AmigaOs 4.x not only retains source codes, file structures, and pretty much everything from the Commodore days, but it also runs Amiga apps. This "Workbench 5" Linux distro will not run any Amiga apps, it will run Linux apps, therefore your insistence that Workbench 5 is no less an "Amiga" than Os4 is total bollocks. Os4 may not be made by commodore/amiga, but it IS the Amiga OS we've known and loved for the last three decades, I can still run my 1985 version of Graphicraft on it if I want to, along with Deluxe Paint, Wordworth, Imagine etc. Os4 is still the same Amiga operating system, just recompiled for Ppc.
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That's not the point... would a NATAMI in a Amiga case sell? That's the point?
Sure, you could sell a few hundreds FPGAs... do not think it would justify the investment.
Why would Sony let any other company sell PS3 rebranded? That's crazy... especially considering what they are doing to those guys that broke the "encryption"
No it wouldn't sell, but in all honesty I can't see this selling either. At a push, the c64 pc will get a few old farts maybe buying it for a bit of retro-novelty, if it's very low priced (as in, like a toy).
You, yourself said only 5000 or so people in the world are interested in the Amiga today, so that begs the question, why bother? If the brand is so worthless, the existing Amiga community are not interested in a Windows 7/Linux box with an Amiga badge on, anyone who does remember the Amiga will just think of a groundbreaking computer from the 80s/90s, so this machine will not interest them when they see it's just the same as the pc they have sitting on their desk at home.
As someone with a business degree, I cannot see any market for these products. I keep reading that Barry is a fantastic business man, yet I cannot understand who his products are aimed at?
Amiga fans will take a Windows box wearing an Amiga badge as the ultimate insult, so that small market is alienated already.
Amiga commercially died decades ago, we have os4/mos as a hobby, and that's fun, but dressing up a bog standard PC as a 20 year old Amiga, or a 30 year old C64 just won't interest anybody in 2011 imho.
Even when Commodore still had a recognisable brand, Escom etc couldn't shift Commodore pcs, you have even less chance today against the likes of Dell/HP with their cut-throat prices.
At best, put out some Amiga/c64 on a joystick things for £20, he'd shift loads of them, but otherwise, just let these dinosaur brands rest with some dignity, if he really is a Commodore fan, he should know that all he's doing is raping this once-great companies legacy and ruining lots of fond memories for those of us that "were there".
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It's a massive insult, imagine how Mac owners would react in the same situation, some pc clone maker starts making "Macs" and shoving Windows 7 on them.
That would be almost as bad as gutting their machine and running it on Intel with a Unix OS... oh wait. :)
The Mac owners got behind Apple eventually. I don't see how this would be much different. I'm not C= USA advocate, but afaics the way forward is to get something out doubly quick that at least as some heritage behind it. The longer the X1000 takes the less likely anyone will buy - I for one would expect at least a 4GB quad core jobbie for the price they are going to be charging, which mean's they're already behind :(
At the end of the day the real Amiga died in the 90s because the market changed, the PC evolved, and Commodore couldn't keep up. Any company attempting the same today and can't adapt/release new tech quickly will die as proven by Escom, Gateway etc. To have a realistic chance mass market penetration is needed and that means selling the brand first IMHO. Innovative new features for these "PCs" can come after.
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It's a massive insult, imagine how Mac owners would react in the same situation, some pc clone maker starts making "Macs" and shoving Windows 7 on them.
Macs ARE PCs today...
Many people have argued before in this forum that PPC is dead and the best thing we could get for a modern day Amiga is a x86. I've been a PPC enthusiast, and I have to admit that x86 today is the thing to go.
Macs are Unix based. This does not seems to insult Mac users. Actually, I've heard lots of people arguing that anything before OS X is unusable (I disagree...)
I would buy a Commodore USA Amiga, because today, my main Amiga is UAE. I still use my A1200 from times to times, but since most software requires an accelerator board, my A1200 is not capable of doing it.
So, I think it is quite strange that people find out sometimes that we need to go x86 and leave PPC, and all that criticism that CUSA got. If they launch an Unix based WB5, it is going the same way Apple did. If it performs nice, and feels "enough Amiga" I will buy it.
I won't expect miracles from super-duper extremely overpriced, underpowered PPC boards.
Those days are gone. If you want a true Commodore product, go to EBay and buy an original Amiga. Everything else is not Commodore. It might be a good product, it might come from a true C= enthusiast company, but it is as C= as anything else
I will give those guys a chance, because it seems the most reasonable attempt to revive the Amiga that I've seem in a decade. I appreciate what they are doing as much as I do appreciate AROS and Natami and Minimigs.
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Without pointing fingers, some people are still launching personal attacks in this thread. TOS clearly prohibit personal attacks. You may dislike a product as much as you wish but if you resort to personal attacks, you will receive infractions.
Last warning.
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I will give those guys a chance, because it seems the most reasonable attempt to revive the Amiga that I've seem in a decade. I appreciate what they are doing as much as I do appreciate AROS and Natami and Minimigs.
You see I don't get why folk can make a statement like that and believe it, they are not attempting to revive the Amiga they are setting up a business that will sell PCs running an Amiga emulator, that in no way can be described as reviving the Amiga... :)
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You see I don't get why folk can make a statement like that and believe it, they are not attempting to revive the Amiga they are setting up a business that will sell PCs running an Amiga emulator, that in no way can be described as reviving the Amiga... :)
Unless of course they are planning to revive it with a modern Amigaoid OS, then the emulator/sandbox is for backward capability for the original OS. So far, all you have seen is the C64x and the Vic series but you want to point to the C64x/Vic as the new Amiga, which it isn't.
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Unless of course they are planning to revive it with a modern Amigaoid OS, then the emulator/sandbox is for backward capability for the original OS. So far, all you have seen is the C64x and the Vic series but you want to point to the C64x/Vic as the new Amiga, which it isn't.
Question: Do you even understand what you're supposed to be selling?
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If the brand is so worthless, the existing Amiga community are not interested in a Windows 7/Linux box with an Amiga badge on, anyone who does remember the Amiga will just think of a groundbreaking computer from the 80s/90s, so this machine will not interest them when they see it's just the same as the pc they have sitting on their desk at home.
...
Amiga fans will take a Windows box wearing an Amiga badge as the ultimate insult, so that small market is alienated already.
This is verifiable false. I am interested and clearly not insulted. I am not the only one.
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Unless of course they are planning to revive it with a modern Amigaoid OS, then the emulator/sandbox is for backward capability for the original OS. So far, all you have seen is the C64x and the Vic series but you want to point to the C64x/Vic as the new Amiga, which it isn't.
Glad to see you've stopped the name calling, much appreciated thank you... :)
(as it was becoming a bit tedious for the other members here as I think you will have noted)
Anyway I don't think me or you are ever going to be able to agree on this subject, you know your opinions and I know mine and to me we're just going round and round in circles here going over the exact same subject time & time again.
Unless someone comes up with something new to debate on this subject or makes a claim that I strongly disagree with, then I'm outa this one for the time being... :)
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Yep, C=USA/Amiga Inc might say that they won, being able to dump the boat anchor AmigaOS...
No they didn't. They settled. And how you can regard the terms in settlement a victory for hyperion is beyond me...
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I am interested and clearly not insulted. I am not the only one.
OK. You are interested in buying a PC running Linux or Windows and carrying a Commodore Amiga brand, right? Assuming you already have one of those without the Commodore Amiga brand affixed to it, what does the nameplate (let's assume it's more than a sticker) get you?
I'm asking because I just really do not understand.
And I am not at all opposed to the x86 architecture. I think that's where we should be, but if we are not running our operating system on that architecture what are we doing that's "Amiga" exactly? What's the appeal of getting on those forums and writing about and reading about Amiga if the interest is really Windows and Linux?
I'm starting to wish I had been an Atari user.
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Assuming you already have one of those without the Commodore Amiga brand affixed to it, what does the nameplate (let's assume it's more than a sticker) get you?
You might as well ask people who buy Dell or Sony or HP the same question.
Sometimes it's specs. Sometimes it's price. Sometimes it's looks. Sometimes it's the name.
That's just the way it works sometimes...
There's nothing wrong with that, per se...
Wow.. People take this thing very seriously... :) :)
desiv
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Simply not true, AmigaOs 4.x not only retains source codes, file structures, and pretty much everything from the Commodore days, but it also runs Amiga apps. This "Workbench 5" Linux distro will not run any Amiga apps, it will run Linux apps, therefore your insistence that Workbench 5 is no less an "Amiga" than Os4 is total bollocks. Os4 may not be made by commodore/amiga, but it IS the Amiga OS we've known and loved for the last three decades, I can still run my 1985 version of Graphicraft on it if I want to, along with Deluxe Paint, Wordworth, Imagine etc. Os4 is still the same Amiga operating system, just recompiled for Ppc.
You are quite late to this stupid discussion, took an old post of mine totally out of context and got it all wrong... good job.
I never said workbench 5 was amiga, in fact I said it was linux, with open office.
what I did say was amiga was OS4, MOS and Aros. Aros shares as much as OS4 with OS3.x as OS4 does. Same reimplimented but same function code, file structures, pretty much everything from commodore days. MOS I don't know as much but from what I understand is similar. Aros is practically the same amiga os recompiled for x86 mostly and mos is for PPC Both are the same as the amiga os we have known and loved for 25yrs.
Your attack on my logic is "bollocks"
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You might as well ask people who buy Dell or Sony or HP the same question.
But Dell and Sony and HP have always meant Windows PCs. Even Commodore on occasion (much to their fiscal regret). Amiga? No.
Wow.. People take this thing very seriously... :) :)
Yeah. :-) My pressure is up.
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But Dell and Sony and HP have always meant Windows PCs. Even Commodore on occasion (much to their fiscal regret). Amiga? No.
There's more to PC's than windows my friend.
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There's more to PC's than windows my friend.
Yes, I know. I just built an i7 quad-core that runs Snow Leopard as its main OS and also has hard drives dedicated to Ubuntu and Win7. It lacks driver support for AROS, but if there was a native version of AmigaOS for it I'd let you put an Amiga sticker on it, ;-)
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Yes, I know. I just built an i7 quad-core that runs Snow Leopard as its main OS and also has hard drives dedicated to Ubuntu and Win7. It lacks driver support for AROS, but if there was a native version of AmigaOS for it I'd let you put an Amiga sticker on it, ;-)
We'll need to get some Commodore Amiga Iran stickers made.
Failing that, I have a sharpie around here :)
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Failing that, I have a sharpie around here :)
Now we're on to something. :-D I just got a Sharpie that writes in silver -- great for black cases.
But in all seriousness, I just looked over this whole thread and see that I have made every point that is on my mind and have started to repeat myself. I'll let others chase this around in circles for a little while as I go enjoy my Amigas and Amiga compatibles. (Defined by me as computers that natively run the Amiga operating system -- still fun after all these years.)
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@ WolfToTheMoon:
I'm not exaggerating... first you'd have to rewrite the entire OS, because the current ones are stuck in the 90s in basic features. Then you'd have to get hardware manufacturers to write drivers for it. Then you'd have to write some apps, pay other companies to port theirs to your platform. Then you'd have to market it, which alone would cost you a very large amount of money(commercials on TV, newspapers, internet). After all that, you're still a long way of being sure you will succeed in attracting a lrge enough user base. So my billions are spot on the money
Really? So, you know for a fact that they'd rewrite the OS from scratch? You know exactly how many man-hours are required and the salaries of all the people that would be needed? You know exactly what *I* meant when I said "an up-to-date AmigaOS?"
Them's some pretty impressive skills you got there...
Workbench X will be a Amiga OS. It will run on Amigas and it will be produced by Commodore. Thus, it becomes an Amiga OS. Your argument that it will not be related to any of the current amiga like OSes is valid.
"My coke tastes funny!"
@ Dammy:Yup, AmigaOS will not be used in conjunction with C=USA Amigas.
Not what I mean, Randy, not what I meant.
I've been chatting a little on the side with Tim, I know a little bit about what's going on with that so-called "follow on" OS and I ain't got a problem with it. Even offered to help if I can, but until then -- and assuming what form it finally takes -- C=USA would be wise to stay away from the Amiga brand. It's just gonna explode in their faces, just like New Coke did. MHO, of course. :)
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Unless of course they are planning to revive it with a modern Amigaoid OS, then the emulator/sandbox is for backward capability for the original OS. So far, all you have seen is the C64x and the Vic series but you want to point to the C64x/Vic as the new Amiga, which it isn't.
Yes, well, until they actually release some real information (any month now, right? Right?) I'd say that it's a reasonable inference. That's what I was really hoping to get out of this, some concrete information on what they want to do with the Amiga and how they plan to do it, not Barry's life story and a list of his business achievements that reads like a Victorian mother pitching an arranged marriage to her kid. "Yes, it's a sensible match, dear, you couldn't do any better! He's experienced, he's built a successful company...what? Well, no, he's not interested in you per se, in fact, I hear of a young lass by the name of Intel he fancies, but money like his'll take care of you in your old age..."
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That would be almost as bad as gutting their machine and running it on Intel with a Unix OS... oh wait. :)
There's a world of difference between running on an x86 architecture and shipping Macs with Windows 7, the reason we were Amiga users/Mac users is because we thought Windows sucked generally.
Even if they manage to skin Ubuntu to look like Workbench, it still won't run Amiga apps. Apple did a LOT more than just skin up a Linux distro, you cannot compare the two.
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There's a world of difference between running on an x86 architecture and shipping Macs with Windows 7, the reason we were Amiga users/Mac users is because we thought Windows sucked generally.
My point being with Apple they changed the OS to Unix and IIRC they emulate the PowerPC for backwards compatibility. AFAICS that situation is not too different. We could use a custom Ubuntu + UAE file type integration to fire up an integrated emulator that shares the same disks.
Even if they manage to skin Ubuntu to look like Workbench, it still won't run Amiga apps. Apple did a LOT more than just skin up a Linux distro, you cannot compare the two.
Why wouldn't it run Amiga apps? You could even throw in a Catweasel device or an Amiga floppy as an optional extra when you buy the hardware? Apple added their propriety UI on top of Darwin, for the most part the inners are raw Unix and the pretty Aqua UI is what the Apple guys define as owning an Apple now. The same could be said for Ubuntu + dedicated propriety Amiga OS window manager (which is probably do-able in around 6 months for a small team of well versed developers). A good window manager can do a lot of magical Amiga only things, it's not necessarily a theme. Having said that I'd want to work on one myself now :)
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And I am not at all opposed to the x86 architecture. I think that's where we should be, but if we are not running our operating system on that architecture what are we doing that's "Amiga" exactly? What's the appeal of getting on those forums and writing about and reading about Amiga if the interest is really Windows and Linux?
I'm starting to wish I had been an Atari user.
We're running into this problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
If in 1993 commodore had rebuilt AmigaOS in the same way that microsoft & apple have done since, there would be no problem.
Ideally each machine should come with a kickstart license & the linux distribution should ship with an integrated version of UAE. So you can have apps that use intuition appear like native apps & h/w hitting apps can be run in a window or made to run full screen.
Native applications could be catered for by offering libraries that have the same semantics but then call the real OS (IIRC Apple do something like this to help port old apps).
However moving forward I'd expect new applications to be written for linux & it would just be to create a link to the past.
A branded linux computer would be interesting, calling it an Amiga would probably get a few sales from people who have an attachment to the name. Similar to how the AmigaOS4 machines did. They only had a tenuous link to the old days & all they have ended up with is expensive hardware and a much more limited OS (because they are limiting themselves to how commodore might have done it).
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Question: What is so innovative about putting a PC inside a case that looks like a Amiga?
Absolutely NOTHING!
When the Amiga first hit the market in the mid 80's, that was truly innovative, it blew everything else away (PC's, MAC's, etc...), nothing even came close to what this thing could do. When I hear what Commodore USA is doing it just makes me want to cry. If they really cared about Amiga and what it stood for, they would be looking to innovate just as Amiga did in the 80's. Thinking outside the box (or the PC) would be a great start. Look at technology of the future, not the present or the past, that is what innovation is.
Commodore USA is just a scam to me.
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Question: Do you even understand what you're supposed to be selling?
The items C=USA are about to put into the market place are the C64x and Vic series. Do you understand that C=USA Amigas are not scheduled to be launched yet?
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Question: What is so innovative about putting a PC inside a case that looks like a Amiga?
Absolutely NOTHING!
Why does it have to be innovative? I understand some people only want it to be innovative to honour the memory of old Commodore and the Amiga. You can do that without innovation by making sure the brand at least survives, think of it as selling Commodore branded PCs. Does that make you feel better?
Eventually Commodore (whichever guise) can invent the next ipod, ipad, iphone, idontgiveacrap but a startup company in a recession can't. You can't invest in research without the funds or investment in a sound business model.
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Why does it have to be innovative? I understand some people only want it to be innovative to honour the memory of old Commodore and the Amiga. You can do that without innovation by making sure the brand at least survives, think of it as selling Commodore branded PCs. Does that make you feel better?
Eventually Commodore (whichever guise) can invent the next ipod, ipad, iphone, idontgiveacrap but a startup company in a recession can't. You can't invest in research without the funds or investment in a sound business model.
I don't care about the brand, and I don't come on here for the brand. I'm here because I like to use the Amiga OS, and it's associated hardware and software.
But building up cash by selling branded product, ok, I don't mind that. But they should not be muddying the waters about a new Amiga/AmigaOS, while at the same time as confusing it with someone elses product, I can't see it helping their cause -As this thread (and others on other forums) demonstrate.
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"Why does it have to be innovative?"
Because this is what sells, not packaging a PC in a pretty case from the 80's. Sure they will sell a few but once those people get their case, they won't be a returning customer.
"...honour the memory of old Commodore and the Amiga."
I can do that now by using my old skool Amiga system or running WinUAE on my PC.
Going down the road Commodore USA is following will only end in a dead end. There is no future in the past. If they really cared about the Amiga and what it stood for they would be looking to the future, working with the community and partnering with them and those companies that are working on Amiga today to make a product for the future (such as a new OS). Companies don't have to be Microsoft sized to be innovative and in Microsoft's case, they are one of the least innovative companies out there (unless you call their buying of other companies and repackaging their ideas as their own innovative). I want Commodore and Amiga to have a future and that is why I posted under this topic, to hopefully wake somebody up and see that there can be a future for Amiga but not when you package a PC in a Amiga case and tell people the future is here. I build my own PC's and I have my own cases (Alienware cases). Why would I buy a PC from them that will in most likelihood be less than what I have now? Some people will buy it for the case but the case is about all you're getting with C=USA.
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If they want to do something cool, they should sponsor NatAmi dev and get AROS onto it. then i'll buy their chinese PC cases ;)
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Actually the more I read about Barry the more I realise he fits Commodore to a T. Part success story, part huckster, part sleight of hand artist, it's a match made in heaven. Commodore always was 2 parts reality to 3 parts belief, Barry will be able to deliver this well. I'm upping my odds on him, I'd say there's a 50/50 chance that we'll still be talking about him in 5 years time.
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"Why does it have to be innovative?"
Because this is what sells, not packaging a PC in a pretty case from the 80's. Sure they will sell a few but once those people get their case, they won't be a returning customer.
"...honour the memory of old Commodore and the Amiga."
I can do that now by using my old skool Amiga system or running WinUAE on my PC.
Going down the road Commodore USA is following will only end in a dead end. There is no future in the past. If they really cared about the Amiga and what it stood for they would be looking to the future, working with the community and partnering with them and those companies that are working on Amiga today to make a product for the future (such as a new OS). Companies don't have to be Microsoft sized to be innovative and in Microsoft's case, they are one of the least innovative companies out there (unless you call their buying of other companies and repackaging their ideas as their own innovative). I want Commodore and Amiga to have a future and that is why I posted under this topic, to hopefully wake somebody up and see that there can be a future for Amiga but not when you package a PC in a Amiga case and tell people the future is here. I build my own PC's and I have my own cases (Alienware cases). Why would I buy a PC from them that will in most likelihood be less than what I have now? Some people will buy it for the case but the case is about all you're getting with C=USA.
I hope you appreciate the irony of an alienware customer complaining about overpriced PCs in gimmick cases.
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I don't care about the brand, and I don't come on here for the brand. I'm here because I like to use the Amiga OS, and it's associated hardware and software.
But building up cash by selling branded product, ok, I don't mind that. But they should not be muddying the waters about a new Amiga/AmigaOS, while at the same time as confusing it with someone elses product, I can't see it helping their cause -As this thread (and others on other forums) demonstrate.
I don't care for the hardware, sure the X1000 if sufficiently powerful sounds cool but I'm here for the nostalgia and the community I remember. I moved onto the no longer grey box PC and that fondness for the custom hardware faded a long time ago and based on a recent poll "would you buy an X1000" it did a long time ago for a lot of other people. If you can't sell it to the die-hards here who can you sell it to? :)
Now if we're talking retro Atari t-shirts and Commodore t-shirts then I'm all in, especially if merchandising nostalgia that would get a company off the ground. For what it's worth I don't like CUSA's new products except perhaps the C64x and I agree they shouldn't muddy waters because that's just going to piss people off...
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Why does it have to be innovative? I understand some people only want it to be innovative to honour the memory of old Commodore and the Amiga. You can do that without innovation by making sure the brand at least survives, think of it as selling Commodore branded PCs. Does that make you feel better?
No. No it does not. As I've said before, if there's truly nothing about the real Amiga that they feel is worth salvaging, they should let it die peacefully. And "think of it as selling Commodore branded PCs?" No! If they are naming something "Amiga," they had damn well be delivering something Amiga-like, and I'm not going to just sit back and pretend they're making smaller claims that could be said to be in line with the facts just because people want this to be real. To keep going with my "Victorian mother" analogy, advising us to "lie back and think of Commodore" isn't going to make the proceedings any more satisfying.
I moved onto the no longer grey box PC and that fondness for the custom hardware faded a long time ago and based on a recent poll "would you buy an X1000" it did a long time ago for a lot of other people. If you can't sell it to the die-hards here who can you sell it to? :)
Except the X1000 does have a following, even if it's one I can't personally fathom, and it is only one hardware-revival project among several. There is still an opportunity to build a successful next-gen Amiga-like hardware platform, unless you're one of the people here for whom "success" is defined as "storm the market and destroy all competitors forever, no exceptions."
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"Why does it have to be innovative?"
Because this is what sells, not packaging a PC...
That's not to say they can't do both.
Going down the road Commodore USA is following will only end in a dead end. There is no future in the past... Companies don't have to be Microsoft sized to be innovative... I want Commodore and Amiga to have a future and that is why I posted under this topic...
I've built my own for years too (as I type I'm still on an 2.2Ghz Athlon XP "2700+") but that hasn't stopped me getting a Dell laptop and my better half getting a Dell PC. Some people just don't want to roll their own or want the support. As it stands currently any official Commodore company has no future at all because they aren't selling anything so any company is better than no company or vapourware.
I realise this is getting a bit heated this is not my intention. I just want to state that the Commodore / the Amiga needs a future, any future just as long as it starts the ball rolling and is not a set top box ;)
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"Why does it have to be innovative?"
Because this is what sells,
I take it you weren't really involved much with computing in the late 80s thru mid 90s?
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"I hope you appreciate the irony of an alienware customer complaining about overpriced PCs in gimmick cases."
Haha, if I have to run my online games on a PC, I may as well do it in style. ;)
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It seems to me, some people are confusing Commodore and Amiga.
I've seen complaints about not being "innovative", and then talking about Commodore..
Amiga was innovative..
Commodore wasn't really. (Not that I can think of right now..)
If you believe Dave Hanie's interviews, one of the possible future's for Commodore Amiga hardware was to run Windows NT...
I don't really see any problems with calling PCs in Amiga-look-a-like cases Commodore Amiga's anymore...
It might not be a "real Amiga" to me, but technically, that died with the A1000.
I love my A1200, but that was a Commodore Amiga, and it was apparent what Commodore was doing to the Amiga by then...
Would I prefer a true "new machine" that is a direct decendant to the Amiga? Sure.
Is it going to happen in large scale? I don't see how..
Would I buy a PC that looked like an Amiga running some Workbench looking Linux OS?
No, and I am a Linux guy. ;-)
But, I don't think I'd buy any PC anymore. I use my Amiga's and I use the laptop. Almost never turn on the PC anymore..
(To be fair, I work on PC's and Servers all day, so it's not like I never use them.)
But, if someone with the Commodore name wants to market something that's basically a PC with the Amiga name on it?
Doesn't bother me..
It sounds very Commodore to me...
desiv
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I hope you appreciate the irony of an alienware customer complaining about overpriced PCs in gimmick cases.
Nah... I got the overpriced gimmick case covered, not r06ue1. I just built a PC in a Antec LanBoy air that's full of blue neon. ;-)
But my Sam440 is in something more down to earth.
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Amiga was innovative..
Commodore wasn't really. (Not that I can think of right now..)
You have to go back to an earlier period for Commodore innovation, to the days of men like Peddle and Tramiel. Later, you are right: It was Commodore getting in the way of innovation by men like Haynie.
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"I take it you weren't really involved much with computing in the late 80s thru mid 90s? "
Actually I was, and the reason I bought a Amiga in the first place was because it could do more than any other computer on the market at that time. Commodore's bad marketing and a very stupid user community is what killed it. I believe users have gotten much smarter and have learned to think for themselves today (look at what Apple has accomplished with the iPhone as an example) and if you give them something that does it better and faster and what others cannot do, they will buy it.
Here is my dream scenario:
Commodore USA, Hyperion, AROS, MorphOS and the community all worked together on a new OS for the future. Does not have to be tied to x86 (I would love to see a ARM based version if Nvidia can produce one that competes with x86) but should support running on many different platforms. Open it up! Open source is the route to take. Let anyone develop for it and people will!
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I believe users have gotten much smarter and have learned to think for themselves today (look at what Apple has accomplished with the iPhone as an example) and if you give them something that does it better and faster and what others cannot do, they will buy it.
That's very arguable - their products are expensive and often under powered compared to competitors' and while Apple sometimes innovate (ipod wheel, Aqua - anything else?) they just advertise MUCH better. I can't think of Apple without some black dancing silhouettes and a white ipod - how "cool". That says to me its attempted brain washing and what I (respectfully) think when I see words like "better and faster and what others cannot do" with the word "Apple". Perhaps I am wrong and it is true that others cannot do what they do because Apple patent everything!
I notice they quickly dropped the "Think different" slogan as soon as the mass market caught on with tons of advertising they do. Somebody who thinks different wouldn't buy Apple as they are the new Microsoft imho.
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That's very arguable - their products are expensive and often under powered compared to competitors' and while Apple sometimes innovate (ipod wheel, Aqua - anything else?) they just advertise MUCH better. I can't think of Apple without some black dancing silhouettes and a white ipod - how "cool". That says to me its attempted brain washing and what I (respectfully) think when I see words like "better and faster and what others cannot do" with the word "Apple". Perhaps I am wrong and it is true that others cannot do what they do because Apple patent everything!
I notice they quickly dropped the "Think different" slogan as soon as the mass market caught on with tons of advertising they do. Somebody who thinks different wouldn't buy Apple as they are the new Microsoft imho.
Given that ipods account for something like 75% of the MP3 player market, I think its a safe bet that most people don't give a hoot.
To be fair, if people actually cared about this stuff, microsoft would be out of business just the same as apple.
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Given that ipods account for something like 75% of the MP3 player market, I think its a safe bet that most people don't give a hoot.
To be fair, if people actually cared about this stuff, microsoft would be out of business just the same as apple.
Best thing is Apple nearly went bust in 1997 until Microsoft bought $150mil of their shares.
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My point being with Apple they changed the OS to Unix and IIRC they emulate the PowerPC for backwards compatibility. AFAICS that situation is not too different. We could use a custom Ubuntu + UAE file type integration to fire up an integrated emulator that shares the same disks.
Why wouldn't it run Amiga apps? You could even throw in a Catweasel device or an Amiga floppy as an optional extra when you buy the hardware? Apple added their propriety UI on top of Darwin, for the most part the inners are raw Unix and the pretty Aqua UI is what the Apple guys define as owning an Apple now. The same could be said for Ubuntu + dedicated propriety Amiga OS window manager (which is probably do-able in around 6 months for a small team of well versed developers). A good window manager can do a lot of magical Amiga only things, it's not necessarily a theme. Having said that I'd want to work on one myself now :)
You are describing OS4/MOS/AROS not any kind of x86 Linux + UAE that's ever been built/distributed let alone coded by C=USA. And they only use emuation for OCS/ECS/AGA functions so not even close anyway. They can run professional apps for RTG screens WITH NO EMULATION. Hence they're known as next gen Amigas.
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Well, since nobody asked for my opinion, here is MY dream scenario:
Microsoft suddenly has a change of heart and invests all their profit into CUSA and Workbench 5. CUSA buys out any and all who claim to have dominion over the Amiga/commodore name. The software side (MS) discards all previous OS efforts to include their server side software to focus on Workbench 5, snatches up MorphOS, AOS4, and sues Aros out of existence a la SCO. CUSA buys Intel and Nvidia, makes "AmigaBox720", a set-top gaming box with optional keyboard sporting the newest best Nvidia Chip called AAAAAAAAAkikko. Its 100% backwards compatible with all existing Amiga software natively with the special backwards bridge made out of bullshittium. It can come in 32 different shapes and color schemes to fit your nostalgic tastes. This new power block can then buy influence in the EU and America so that they can legally draw and quarter all Apple users. As we all stand around the bloody hipster chunks we can sing Kumbaiyah and have ice cream.
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and sues Aros out of existence a la SCO.
Aros is not a company and in the case of SCO it was the party who sued who died :)
greets,
Staf.
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A branded linux computer would be interesting, calling it an Amiga would probably get a few sales from people who have an attachment to the name. Similar to how the AmigaOS4 machines did. They only had a tenuous link to the old days & all they have ended up with is expensive hardware and a much more limited OS (because they are limiting themselves to how commodore might have done it).
OS4 runs PPC Wipeout 2097 in ascalable proportional window on the desktop, Linux + UAE / WIN7 + UAE doesn't. Says it all really that even Win7/Vista/XP can't do that with x86 PC version of Wipeout.
OS4 is fine, hardware sold to run it is not.
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I'm actually a little less peeved than i was a few months ago, but still highly skeptical of CUSA. I'm looking forward to seeing them get something into the market, regardless of whether it succeeds or fails. I really just want to see what happens next.
I'll gladly give CUSA's pseudo-amiga OS a spin on my own hardware if they ever actually create such a thing.
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Aros is not a company and in the case of SCO it was the party who sued who died :)
greets,
Staf.
I keep forgetting Europeans have no developed sense of sarcasm. I though the ice cream line gave it away entirely :)
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Well, since nobody asked for my opinion, here is MY dream scenario:
Microsoft suddenly has a change of heart and invests all their profit into CUSA and Workbench 5. CUSA buys out any and all who claim to have dominion over the Amiga/commodore name. The software side (MS) discards all previous OS efforts to include their server side software to focus on Workbench 5, snatches up MorphOS, AOS4, and sues Aros out of existence a la SCO. CUSA buys Intel and Nvidia, makes "AmigaBox720", a set-top gaming box with optional keyboard sporting the newest best Nvidia Chip called AAAAAAAAAkikko. Its 100% backwards compatible with all existing Amiga software natively with the special backwards bridge made out of bullshittium. It can come in 32 different shapes and color schemes to fit your nostalgic tastes. This new power block can then buy influence in the EU and America so that they can legally draw and quarter all Apple users. As we all stand around the bloody hipster chunks we can sing Kumbaiyah and have ice cream.
Except Microsoft is losing out to Apple daily ;)
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All this sounds like retro modding.
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I'll gladly give CUSA's pseudo-amiga OS a spin on my own hardware if they ever actually create such a thing.
Good point, if it actually turns out to be worth a damn (riight) I'm sure it could be pirated* easily enough and the need for "specialized" hardware avoided!
*provided they decide not to allow it for free download, which would be my guess.
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Good point, if it actually turns out to be worth a damn (riight) I'm sure it could be pirated* easily enough and the need for "specialized" hardware avoided!
*provided they decide not to allow it for free download, which would be my guess.
Hey! My P4 is "special!" :lol:
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I've got a Commodore branded netbook just waiting for an OS!
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You might as well ask people who buy Dell or Sony or HP the same question.
Sometimes it's specs. Sometimes it's price. Sometimes it's looks. Sometimes it's the name.
That's just the way it works sometimes...
There's nothing wrong with that, per se...
Wow.. People take this thing very seriously... :) :)
desiv
Don't be stupid, comparing SONY/HP/DELL PCs is like comparing A4000D/A4000T.
PC x86 motherboard + Windows + WinUAE <> Amiga.
PC x86 motherboard + Linux + UAE <> Amiga.
Sticking Ferrari badge on a Toyota saloon <> new Ferrari car either ;)
Look of the case plastics you wrap around it makes no difference. If you put an Atari 520ST motherboard inside Amiga 500 case and wire up the Amiga keyboard and FDD is it also a new Amiga now? What if I even show that you can still run your Amiga labelled Starglider 2 floppy? :roflmao:
Don't encourage the mentally challenged please!
(Starglider 2= dual format ST/Amiga original game disk....but will sound like an Amstrad game for some reaso ;) )
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Well, since nobody asked for my opinion, here is MY dream scenario:
Apparently, one mans dream is another mans nightmare.
Microsoft suddenly has a change of heart and invests all their profit into CUSA and Workbench 5.
And then they bring back Amiga Basic, but this time it always fires requesters: "This Basic Programm wants to connect to the internet. The internet can be harmful to your computer, do you want to (C)onnect or (A)bort?" And will prompt "You can turn off your Amiga now" when you quit Workbench.
... and sues Aros out of existence a la SCO.
And while they are at it, they eliminate Linux by suing Torvalds about his first name?
100% backwards compatible with all existing Amiga software
Especially Word Perfect and IBM Transformer.
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Well, the specific processors used in the PS3 may be an exclusive license, but PPC is still manufactured by IBM for all sorts of stuff, so just make an offer for 100.000 boards or whatever, and you can do whatever the heck you want :)
IBM retain full exclusive rights to Xenon CPU (Xbox 360) and have unlimited rights to sell/modify CELL CPU (PS3 CPU) Xenon is based on 3x CELL PPE units in 6 thread/3 core mish mash.
Price/min quantity/motherboard design is the only issue (quite an issue it is too).
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Apparently, one mans dream is another mans nightmare.
And then they bring back Amiga Basic, but this time it always fires requesters: "This Basic Programm wants to connect to the internet. The internet can be harmful to your computer, do you want to (C)onnect or (A)bort?" And will prompt "You can turn off your Amiga now" when you quit Workbench.
And while they are at it, they eliminate Linux by suing Torvalds about his first name?
Especially Word Perfect and IBM Transformer.
See? Now you're getting in the spirit! Looks like the germans do have a sense of sarcasm :D
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Very nice job, Red! You say in the lead you aren't a journalist, given the piece you might want to rethink that!
Bob
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Very nice job, Red! You say in the lead you aren't a journalist, given the piece you might want to rethink that!
Bob
Thank you for the kind remarks. I'm glad to see some people appreciated it:)
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Sorry Red, not putting your report down or being disrespectful, but it's gotta go down as a non-event in my books... :(
Guess we'll just have to put up with the hype and constant bickering from now on... :)
l 100 % agree to me this just those sad sacks at amiga inc atempt to get back at community and future plans of x1000
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Why are we giving this fake Commodore wanker attention again? Great job reporting, redrumloa... but the universe would be a much better place if everybody just ignored this fake Commodore into nonexistence.
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I didn't read through all this, but I think the C64 product is actually pretty cool from a nostalgia point of view. I think they could sell a decent number of these if the price is right.
All the other models on the site seemed pointless to me as I am not sure what they are trying to be.
Being an Amiga guy, if they did something similar with a near-exact A1000 replica, I might buy one if it was cheap enough. I probably wouldn't use it myself as I need a high end PC, but might give it to the wife just so it can look pretty on the counter while she surfs the internet. An A3000 would also look pretty good. Wouldn't be interested in any other models.
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OS4 is worth less than anything that actually runs on hardware people have. OS4 runs only on specialized, very expensive and rare hardware. Fine for you if you want to spend tons of money on it.
Hi,
@Kthunder,
Kthunder you have to watch what you say here on Amiga.org, you almost sound sane. I have spent at least $1500 on my A1200 with upgrades, and guess what I can't find OS4 that will run on it or a power supply that will run it. If I disable all my upgrades, it works fine as a A1200.
I just wish someone would upgrade OS4 to a PC, I would buy it real quick, I hate MACS and believe only non computer people use them, I use Ubuntu 10.10 and love it, (funny how with Ubuntu I started with 7.04 and upgraded to 10.10 and haven't lost any data, almost as good as my miggy)
smerf
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Well...
I do like the looks of the C64 casing clone, very nice, except it needs two C64 keys so I'd be able to do a soft reset in AROS, assuming it would run on the hardware if it comes out.
As for judgment. Well it has been a fun ongoing joke here in the community, so thus far we can all thank Barry for that! Now if he delivers a price effective product that will run AROS, I'll happily commend him. After all, this is a fun idea that I'm sure many of us have thought of our selves before C USA came around. So to Barry, I say GO FOR IT!
On the other hand, if they really are saying that Amiga has gone no where, and that they are the first to actually do something with the name...
...well they seriously need to kill that noise. It's LAME.
Lastly I must state that I'm VERY curious as to what Workbench 5 is! VERY!!! I'm not expecting much, but I'm damn curious! I'm willing to bet that it is some Linux concoction with an Amiga skin though. :/
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I looked at the article about Barry again and now I know why we thought his satellite TV company wasn't real. The article was dated 1984! I didn't go back that far in my research, those records are hard to find on the internet.
When they mentioned satellite TV I assumed they meant something modern, that was my mistake. So am I correct in saying that Cabletron was pretty much squeezed out with the advent of the 90 cm dish and paid subscriptions to satellite TV?
That would be interesting that Barry's business suffered from the same problems at the same time as the original Commodore.
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Did you mention Aeon, Hyperion, Acube, to him and what they are doing with X1000 etc... Or does he just not care?
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Did you mention Aeon, Hyperion, Acube, to him and what they are doing with X1000 etc... Or does he just not care?
I don't remember the name Acube coming up. The X1000/OS4 project came up and he said they were contacted and (me paraphrasing) that this is not a viable option because there is no product near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. They want to get a product on the shelves this year, not some undetermined time in the future if at all.
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I don't remember the name Acube coming up. The X1000/OS4 project came up and he said they were contacted and (me paraphrasing) that this is not a viable option because there is no product near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. They want to get a product on the shelves this year, not some undetermined time in the future if at all.
Bit of a bombshell for some, I imagine.
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Don't be stupid,
There's this thing called "context."
:)
Relax.. Breathe.. Decaf.. :roflmao:
desiv
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I looked at the article about Barry again and now I know why we thought his satellite TV company wasn't real. The article was dated 1984! I didn't go back that far in my research, those records are hard to find on the internet.
When they mentioned satellite TV I assumed they meant something modern, that was my mistake. So am I correct in saying that Cabletron was pretty much squeezed out with the advent of the 90 cm dish and paid subscriptions to satellite TV? That would be interesting that Barry's business suffered from the same problems at the same time as the original Commodore.
So much wrong in this statement, where to start?
Cabletech was a developmental partner with General Motors & Hughes Communications in the small aperture DBS system that later became DirecTv.
Not so shabby. Click here for 1994 Cabletech news (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sun_sentinel/access/86523575.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Oct+10%2C+1994&author=VICKI+McCASH+Business+Writer&pub=Sun+Sentinel&edition=&startpage=6&desc=SATELLITE+TV+DOWN+TO+EARTH+MINIDISH+MAKES+PRICES+OF+SYSTEMS+MORE+REASONABLE+TO+MANY+CONSUMERS%2C+BUT+OTHER+ASPECTS+OF+INDUSTRY+ARE+STILL+UP+IN+AIR). Barry also founded Club Spectrum (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sun_sentinel/access/89517865.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+8%2C+1992&author=MICHAEL+WALSH%2CMarjory+Stoneman+Douglas+High&pub=Sun+Sentinel&edition=&startpage=10&desc=NEW+TEEN+CLUB+TRIES+TO+FILL+VOID) in South Florida. I remember hearing about this club, it was crazy busy but ended up going adult due to teen gang problems (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-09-16/news/9201210895_1_teen-clubs-gangs-teens-don-t-club-spectrum).
Quite a stretch to take someone who founded multiple successful companies and made themselves a fortune in the process and dismiss them out of hand as some unknown hack from the 80's.
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What does a cable box/satellite, furniture company and some teen club really have to do with how C-USA will or will not be a grand victory?
I'm appreciative of the backstory on the principal of this company, but I don't really see the relevance on how it will affect the success of their computer offerings, I suppose. There's been a lot of wildly successful businessmen that have started new companies that utterly flopped.
Most people I have spoken to just rolled their eyes at the mention of "TV advertising". I had friend that still own multiple classic amiga systems - thousands of dollars worth of high end classic Amiga system - simply cringe at some of this "new revival" talk, lol. Just like they did at the pricepoint of the SAM and x1000 stuff. If anyone thinks that buying ad time on TV stations will advance these machines into the mainstream market, I've got a bridge to sell you - it's a waste of time and money for a niche product. Even Apple is smart enough to save their TV ad budgets for mainly their appliance/phone/mp3 devices knowing full well that their Mac's are still small fry and niche in the grand business scheme they have.
Guess I'm missing something with all this, but as I've said before - best of luck.
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Exactly Duce, well said. I don't wish to be rude, but reading excitable comments from red/dam my about how Barry is going to be doing Superbowl TV ads, his own AppStore, and dreams of a global Commodore/Amiga relaunch, my first instinct is to cringe.
In reality anybody who's passed Business Skills for the 11+ can see this company/project has absolutely no hope of succeeding. Those who are expecting CUSA to be the second coming should really learn a few basics in business before believing in this crap so much.
At best, they'll release a few pcs in expensive cases to look like C64s, which as someone said earlier is "retromod" territory. The general public aren't going to be falling over themselves to buy a low-end PC shoe-horned into a cheesy looking 30 year old 80s relic skin, the breadboard c64 even looked outdated by 1987, hence the introduction of the c64c.
I really can't see the shifting anymore than a thousand or two, same with the Amiga-esq PCs, this is not a business model that can succeed outside of the small "retro" computing community, and it seems even 50% of them are against this project.
I give it all 6 months and maybe the c64PC launch after that I'd expect we'll have heard the last of them after some big financial losses.
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Exactly Duce, well said. I don't wish to be rude, but reading excitable comments from red/dam my about how Barry is going to be doing Superbowl TV ads, his own AppStore, and dreams of a global Commodore/Amiga relaunch, my first instinct is to cringe.
I've made excitable comments? I don't think I've done any fist pumping promoting or made any predictions. I've simply posted what I have seen or learned. AFAIR the only prediction I made was something like "things could get very interesting".
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Judging from what I've read the man is an arrogant nutcase, his products are junk, his website looks like a 12-year-old created it and is full of stolen images, and his business plan is non-existent.
Re-selling PC's with glued-on Commodore badges? That idea has been tried and failed time and time again since 1994 beginning with Escom.
I can't believe people are paying this guy so much attention. His business amounts to selling case badges.
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Judging from what I've read the man is an arrogant nutcase, his products are junk, his website looks like a 12-year-old created it and is full of stolen images, and his business plan is non-existent.
Re-selling PC's with glued-on Commodore badges? That idea has been tried and failed time and time again since 1994 beginning with Escom.
I can't believe people are paying this guy so much attention. His business amounts to selling case badges.
I hate to correct you, but he isn't selling anything at all ;)
Exactly Duce, well said. I don't wish to be rude, but reading excitable comments from red/dam my about how Barry is going to be doing Superbowl TV ads, his own AppStore, and dreams of a global Commodore/Amiga relaunch, my first instinct is to cringe.
Well, we're past the superbowl as it turns out. I dont watch the thing, so someone else can fill in if there were any computer adds
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You seem to have forgotten to close this one too... :)
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J
Re-selling PC's with glued-on Commodore badges? That idea has been tried and failed time and time again since 1994 beginning with Escom.
I can't believe people are paying this guy so much attention. His business amounts to selling case badges.
Does this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/album.php?albumid=116&pictureid=676) look like slapping a glue-on Commodore badge to a PC? ;)
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Does this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/album.php?albumid=116&pictureid=676) look like slapping a glue-on Commodore badge to a PC? ;)
Nope. Looks like slapping a screw-on Commodore case to a PC.
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Nope. Looks like slapping a screw-on Commodore case to a PC.
You would have to admit this takes quite some effort and cost to produce above and beyond slapping a sticker on white box PC, no?
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Does this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/album.php?albumid=116&pictureid=676) look like slapping a glue-on Commodore badge to a PC? ;)
woulld take a lot of stickers to get them to stack that high. :-D
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I hate to correct you, but he isn't selling anything at all ;)
Well, we're past the superbowl as it turns out. I dont watch the thing, so someone else can fill in if there were any computer adds
No, as I said he decided against it because the C64x stock would not be ready soon enough. The four TV adds he showed us was pretty good, the fifth was still in storyboard shape and that one I kinda hope doesn't make it, a bit too controversial for the market Barry is aiming for IMO.
He broke down how fast that $2.5M is going to be spent over I think it's a 15 day period. So much money, so little total time.
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You would have to admit this takes quite some effort and cost to produce above and beyond slapping a sticker on white box PC, no?
Cost and effort? Absolutely. Does that translate into the authentic claim to the crown they think it does? No, it's completely irrelevant. Thus, while I don't discount the time and effort involved, I say that it's no more significant to the Commodore/Amiga community than slapping a sticker.
Just a shame all that time and money aren't going towards something actually Amiga-related, is all :(
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Hi,
@Runequester,
Don't worry about not watching the Superbowl. Rottenburger stunk, threw two interceps in the first quarter, Mendenhall done his famous fumble thing and the Steelers lost, Rottenburger tried to put it out in the last minute but failed miserably, the Steeler defense or steel curtain had holes in it all night long and the Steelers lost. Everything about this superbowl sucked, even the place where they played at (Dallas), but then again everything in Texas sucks.
smerf
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Hi,
@red,
Hey red you should know by now that some people are going to believe what they believe, and no amount of talking will change thier mind. I know how these people feel, because I am one of them, the Amiga was and still is magical. To think you can throw it in a PC case and sell it as an Amiga is quite wrong, a year ago you couldn't convince me of such a thing, but after playing with Amiga Forever on one of the newer computers I have changed my mind, the magic is almost comming back again, especially when I do not have to determine:
is it PAL or NTSC
is it CD32
is it CDTV
do I have to turn on or off memory
what do I have to downgrade.
is it AGA or is it OCS
It just seems so much more fun to load and run on Amiga Forever and I found out if their is no copy protection (are you listening EA) even your productivity programs like Pen Pal, Final Writer, Amiga File will run on Amiga Forever.
OK, it is not Amiga, but it is saving my hardware on the real Amiga's and that is what I care about.
smerf
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Hi,
@Runequester,
Don't worry about not watching the Superbowl. Rottenburger stunk, threw two interceps in the first quarter, Mendenhall done his famous fumble thing and the Steelers lost, Rottenburger tried to put it out in the last minute but failed miserably, the Steeler defense or steel curtain had holes in it all night long and the Steelers lost. Everything about this superbowl sucked, even the place where they played at (Dallas), but then again everything in Texas sucks.
smerf
Rottenburger? Was this a food fight? And what exactly were they stealing? The only thing I understood in this paragraph was "Texas stinks"
Yes. Yes it does. :lol:
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OS4 was not produced by commodore, or even AI,
Even the Commodore of old just bought the Amiga technology (hard- and software) - it wasn't their development.
The tie wearing idiots that called themselves "manager" drove the company to the ground with their incompetence.
So I don't care for Commodore - neither for the old one, nor for the latest (re-)incarnation of that corpse.
They were just one owner of the Amiga technology in a long row and the fact that their latest re-incarnation deals/dealt with that Amino/AInc/Itec/KMOS/AInc/Amino scam company doesn't really help to make me feel better about them...
All that I associate the name "Commodore" with are stupid business decisions followed by the downfall.
What counts for me most is that the "spirit" of Amiga lives on in the updates to the AmigaOS and the HW it runs on.
and it doesnt run on real 68k amigas.
Hmmmm - so you're saying my Amiga 4000 with 68060 cpu and PPC604e cpu isn't real?
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...
but as CUSA seems to be adamant on using them then I shall continue to express my views on this whenever the subject arises... :)
1+
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Amiga was a 68k computer developed in the 80's and early 90's by Commodore International.
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Wrong.
It hasn't been developed by Commodore - they just bought the Amiga technology.
Development of the Amiga began in 1982 with Jay Miner as the principal hardware designer of "Amiga Corporation". "Amiga Corporation" was a United States computer company formed in the early 1980s as "Hi-Toro". It is most famous for having developed the Amiga computer, code named "Lorraine".
You should get your facts straight instead of distorting history.
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Seriously, those of you with moral, ethical, whatever obejections to this need to get over it.
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Seriously, you're certainly not in the position to tell anybody what he needs to do or not.
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Should they have asked you?
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To use their brain should have been sufficiant.
(See second part of my sig...)
Not to do so somehow seems to be tied to the name...
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This would have been the "sane" solution for C-USA:
Commodore PCs - a line of C= branded PCs running a variety of off-the-shelf OS's (Win, Linux, etc) or with a blank HD.
Commodore "Classic" PCs - as above, but with a Commodore themed case and AmigaForever/C64 Forever pre-installed with possily USB-Analog joystick adapters, joysticks and games.
Commodore Amiga cases - replacement cases for existing Amiga-like machines (Amiga1000-4000, OS4.x mobos, Minimig solutions, etc)
Commodore Amiga models - A line of Amiga compatable machines using Minimig/FPGA Arcade and eventually Natami supplied with a preconfigured SD Card containing ROMs, WB3.x and games.
Instead, they're up to something evil.
1+
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Then we have Hyperion, who was contracted by Amiga Inc to do 4 months of developing work (some carefully defined work tasks, as outlined by the Friedens themselves) for which they would get a specified sum of money.
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AInc broke the contract in the first place by not handing over the contractually assured source codes.
Don't distort history!
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This guy recognizes that x86 rules the world.
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Are you trying to imply here that Amiga should rule the world?
Get real...
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There are people here who would be happy to run Linux with an emulator on an x86 box,
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Nothing hinders them to do so already today - they don't need C=USA for that.
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...
he wants to sell people
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He wants to sell people?
Really???
I thought slave trade was illegal nowadays?
EDIT:
Or did you mean ""he wants to sell to people"?
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He wants to sell people?
Really???
I thought slave trade was illegal nowadays?
EDIT:
Or did you mean ""he wants to sell to people"?
Dandy, why are you always late to the pary ?
Do you check internet forums only every 2:nd week ?
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The X1000/OS4 project ... is not a viable option because there is no product near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon.
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And you are 100% sure that what he told you is the truth and not just spreading F.U.D. to tap some of AEon's potential customers?
If so, what is your confidence based upon?
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Dandy, why are you always late to the pary ?
Do you check internet forums only every 2:nd week ?
I have a life to live, you know...
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And you are 100% sure that what he told you is the truth and not just spreading F.U.D. to tap some of AEon's potential customers?
If so, what is your confidence based upon?
I think what he means is that from a commercial point of view X1000 isn't viable. The fan base is there, but it's only at best a thousand or two and at worst in the hundreds. There isn't enough profit there to keep a company going in the long run. He wasn't commenting on the computer but rather on the economics of making the computer.
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I'm late to this party, mostly because I don't care enough about the religious wars to get involved again. But I have read through the thread now and I think only Kronos really raises any interesting questions.
Here's my tuppence worth... This guy, Barry, seems like a reasonable bloke with a bit of cash and bordom on his side. He doesn't know much about the retro commodore scene but thinks there might be a Market for some vintage styled equipment. He sees it as a fun little hobby to keep him busy and he clearly has motivation to make a product.
IMHO I think all the whingers here should just shut up and let him do something, you never know, he might make an intereting product... If he fails to deliver then, definitely give him crap for it...
As for the religious crap about "true Amiga", that got real old about 6 years ago. No current project has "direct lineage" with the old Commodore Amiga, and in fact all the current projects have shared code/ideas to the point that they are more closely relatedto each other than to the "One true Amiga"(tm)...
Take care! ;)
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And you are 100% sure that what he told you is the truth and not just spreading F.U.D. to tap some of AEon's potential customers?
I guess that depends on whether Barry:
1) Doesn't give a crap about the existing Amiga community(s) and has his eye on selling to a much larger audience
or
2) Is so clued into the Amiga community and specifically the OS4 scene that he is even now conniving to steal away the dozen or so people who plan to buy an X1000.
Now, I don't have much of a business background but I do know how to make money, and I suspect Barry does too. Which is more profitable do you think, 1 or 2?
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Here's my tuppence worth... This guy, Barry, seems like a reasonable bloke with a bit of cash and bordom on his side. He doesn't know much about the retro commodore scene but thinks there might be a Market for some vintage styled equipment. He sees it as a fun little hobby to keep him busy and he clearly has motivation to make a product.
IMHO I think all the whingers here should just shut up and let him do something, you never know, he might make an intereting product... If he fails to deliver then, definitely give him crap for it...
I had this long diatribe basically outlining the same thing last night, but decided not to post 'cause I thought it would have just gotten lost among the pages and pages of BS. So thanks for this Bloodline!
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Even the Commodore of old just bought the Amiga technology (hard- and software) - it wasn't their development.
The tie wearing idiots that called themselves "manager" drove the company to the ground with their incompetence.
So I don't care for Commodore - neither for the old one, nor for the latest (re-)incarnation of that corpse.
They were just one owner of the Amiga technology in a long row and the fact that their latest re-incarnation deals/dealt with that Amino/AInc/Itec/KMOS/AInc/Amino scam company doesn't really help to make me feel better about them...
All that I associate the name "Commodore" with are stupid business decisions followed by the downfall.
What counts for me most is that the "spirit" of Amiga lives on in the updates to the AmigaOS and the HW it runs on.
Hmmmm - so you're saying my Amiga 4000 with 68060 cpu and PPC604e cpu isn't real?
Ok lets see if we can tie your nonsense together and respond here.
OS4 on an amiga 4000 ppc runs on the ppc, amigas are 68k machines, commodore never released a ppc machine, so os4 runs on a non-commodore, non-amiga, component slapped onto the side of your cpu. If I ran Windows on a bridgeboard in an Amiga 3000 does that mean that Amiga's run Windows?
As for your who developed Amiga stupidity, no Amiga did not originate with Commodore, but 99 percent of the development, including ALL of the actual computer models and ALL of the OS releases except for 3.5,3.9, Aros, MOS, and OS4 were by Commodore.
I know the history of Amiga as well as you, but I'm not quite as pedantic.
The rest of your comments were so stupid and nitpicky I won't even comment on them.
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I'm late to this party, mostly because I don't care enough about the religious wars to get involved again. But I have read through the thread now and I think only Kronos really raises any interesting questions.
Here's my tuppence worth... This guy, Barry, seems like a reasonable bloke with a bit of cash and bordom on his side. He doesn't know much about the retro commodore scene but thinks there might be a Market for some vintage styled equipment. He sees it as a fun little hobby to keep him busy and he clearly has motivation to make a product.
IMHO I think all the whingers here should just shut up and let him do something, you never know, he might make an intereting product... If he fails to deliver then, definitely give him crap for it...
As for the religious crap about "true Amiga", that got real old about 6 years ago. No current project has "direct lineage" with the old Commodore Amiga, and in fact all the current projects have shared code/ideas to the point that they are more closely relatedto each other than to the "One true Amiga"(tm)...
Take care! ;)
Well put bloodline, +1
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I had this long diatribe basically outlining the same thing last night, but decided not to post 'cause I thought it would have just gotten lost among the pages and pages of BS. So thanks for this Bloodline!
Instead of posting this diatribe/bs an "I agree" would have been acceptable and shorter way of saying the same thing ;)
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Instead of posting this diatribe/bs an "I agree" would have been acceptable and shorter way of saying the same thing ;)
@ brownb2
:lol:
(PS:You look a lot better now in your new avatar... :lol:)
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Instead of posting this diatribe/bs an "I agree" would have been acceptable and shorter way of saying the same thing ;)
-1
There's your brevity buddy ;) :lol:
Oh and almost forgot...
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@redrumloa
Thanks for your report Red. That Commodore 64x looks quite nice.
I'll take the wait and see what transpires route, rather than wade into the debate.
Thanks,
redfox
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I think what he means is that from a commercial point of view X1000 isn't viable.
O.K. - but didn't Trevor Dickinson state from the very beginning that the A1 X1k is not targetted at the "common user", but at developers and geeks?
From my POV it doesn't make sense to blame him for something that he clearly stated from the beginning...
The fan base is there, but it's only at best a thousand or two and at worst in the hundreds.
There isn't enough profit there to keep a company going in the long run.
AFAIR, Trevor said if he sold 250 units or so he'd break even. So selling "a thousand or two" would mean quite a good profit for him, wouldn't you agree?
I don't know his plans regarding keeping his "company going in the long run".
He wasn't commenting on the computer but rather on the economics of making the computer.
Maybe this is due to him looking at it from a completely different perspective.
He wants to supply the masses (as far as I understood), while Trev just wants to supply the devs and geeks to lay a foundation for further development of the platform.
So they are aiming at completely different target groups, I'd say...
And if Barry realy is a prooven business man as it was repeatedly stated here, he should be aware of that.
But in this case I don't understand why he states things that can be interpreted by those interested in the A1 X1k as if the whole project is just vapourware/a hoax.
The only motivation for that that comes to my mind is that he's intentionally spreading F.U.D. in order to torpedo the A1 X1k project.
Correct me, if you think I'm wrong...
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@ brownb2
:lol:
(PS:You look a lot better now in your new avatar... :lol:)
Cheers - my smug sh*t eating grin on the previous photo started irritating me, but oddly this thread didn't!
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The keyboard has to be custom designed for the retro case.
The layout it totally wrong - how utterely pointless!
There goes my last hope for CUSA to actually do something usefull :(
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...your nonsense...
...your who developed Amiga stupidity...
...your comments were so stupid and nitpicky...
First of all: Thank you for your kind words.
It's always refreshing to receive namecalling from someone running out of arguments...
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OS4 on an amiga 4000 ppc runs on the ppc, amigas are 68k machines, commodore never released a ppc machine, so os4 runs on a non-commodore, non-amiga, component slapped onto the side of your cpu.
This doesn't remotedly answer my question, which was "Hmmmm - so you're saying my Amiga 4000 with 68060 cpu and PPC604e cpu isn't real?", IIRC.
I'm very well aware that OS 4.x runs on the PPC, once it was started by the 68k cpu and that commodore never released a ppc machine. I also know that the CyberstormPPC is a "non-commodore" product from Phase5 for Amigas 3k/4k. Or can you name annother computer brand that could use them?
My Amiga 4000 was manufactured by Commodore and expanded by me with an add-on by Phase5 for Amiga computers.
Are you trying to imply that my A4k isn't an Amiga any longer, because I expanded it with the CSPPC?
If so - and if I follow this logic - then my good old Ford Sierra XR4i wasn't any longer a Ford Sierra XR4i, just because I put better looking 3rd party rims and Recaro seats on it, as well as an Pioneer high end stereo equipment and an Bosch ultra sonic alarm system?
If I ran Windows on a bridgeboard in an Amiga 3000 does that mean that Amiga's run Windows?
As long as they are expanded with an bridgeboard, of course - yes.
I already did that back in 1989 on my A500 - initially with PCtask, later I expanded it with the Vortex ATonce286 classic. And the A500 still was an A500 - but an expanded one.
As for your who developed Amiga stupidity, no Amiga did not originate with Commodore, but 99 percent of the development,
According to my dictionary the "development" was 100% done by "Amiga Corporation", aka "Hi-Toro".
All subsequent "advancements" or "enhancements" have been done by Commodore until they went belly up in 1994.
including ALL of the actual computer models
Not sure what you mean with "actual computer models", as Commodore produced its last Amiga models back in 1994.
I would regard the SAM or the A1 X1k (if already was available) as "actual computer models".
and ALL of the OS releases[ -] except for 3.5,[ ]3.9, Aros, MOS, and OS4 [- ]were by Commodore.
(content in square brackets added by me for better readability)
I fully agree with you here.
I know the history of Amiga as well as you, but I'm not quite as pedantic.
I'm sorry if I came across as "pedantic" - maybe I have some semantic problems due to not being a native English speaker.
So it came that I had to use a dictionary sometimes and - as I stated above - my dictonary revealed that there is a difference in meanings between "development" and "advancement or enhancement".
I just tried to word myself as precise as possible to avoid being misunderstood.
If that qualifies me as being "pedantic" then be it...
The rest of your comments were so stupid and nitpicky I won't even comment on them.
Again:
Thank you for your kind words.
It's always refreshing to receive namecalling from someone running out of arguments...
EDIT:
Fixed quoting
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I guess that depends on whether Barry:
1) Doesn't give a crap about the existing Amiga community(s) and has his eye on selling to a much larger audience
or
2) Is so clued into the Amiga community and specifically the OS4 scene that he is even now conniving to steal away the dozen or so people who plan to buy an X1000.
Now, I don't have much of a business background but I do know how to make money, and I suspect Barry does too. Which is more profitable do you think, 1 or 2?
I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective - please see my reply #375 to Persia.
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nothing wrong with novelty PC's, it's the way it's been gone about.
Amiga Inc lost the amigaOS4 court case, calling the new skinned linux OS5 is just underhand, and a clear attempt at obfuscation. They have no OS4 to be an upgrade from.
Same thing for the name of the machine, it's named to mislead, and to be confused with the new X1000 from A-eon.
There is room for this kit. It looks nice, if it's got a commodore and amiga logo, and looks a bit like workbench-that's cool.
they could have went about it in a less underhanded manner, and let it stand on it's own merits.
When did Amiga Inc lose the amigaOS4 court case?
Agree 100% on the OS5 bit. I think if we ignore that though it will go away. If it hasn't already.
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I'm late to this party, mostly because I don't care enough about the religious wars to get involved again. But I have read through the thread now and I think only Kronos really raises any interesting questions.
Here's my tuppence worth... This guy, Barry, seems like a reasonable bloke with a bit of cash and bordom on his side. He doesn't know much about the retro commodore scene but thinks there might be a Market for some vintage styled equipment. He sees it as a fun little hobby to keep him busy and he clearly has motivation to make a product.
IMHO I think all the whingers here should just shut up and let him do something, you never know, he might make an intereting product... If he fails to deliver then, definitely give him crap for it...
As for the religious crap about "true Amiga", that got real old about 6 years ago. No current project has "direct lineage" with the old Commodore Amiga, and in fact all the current projects have shared code/ideas to the point that they are more closely relatedto each other than to the "One true Amiga"(tm)...
Take care! ;)
Ohh no Bloodline is thinking the same as me.. Or am I thinking the same as him?
Pretend OS5 or specialised, potentially "equally useful" OS4.1.
I guess the bright side you posted with no mention of that M word.
Reality check....
Would the real amiga OS please step out from behind 3.9 and do some HD video encoding for me........Okay then how about running some HD Streaming video?......Burn a blue ray video ?.....
There are crickets chirping on the open ground where once stood a stadium at which there was once a race.
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When did Amiga Inc lose the amigaOS4 court case?
They didn't.
He's referring to the settlement which gave Hyperion the right to continue to develop Amiga OS, including, but not limited TO 4.
#6
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I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective - please see my reply #375 to Persia.
Okay, let's examine your post #375.
O.K. - but didn't Trevor Dickinson state from the very beginning that the A1 X1k is not targetted at the "common user", but at developers and geeks?...AFAIR, Trevor said if he sold 250 units or so he'd break even. So selling "a thousand or two" would mean quite a good profit for him, wouldn't you agree?
This doesn't differ from what I said in my post #367: the market for the X1000 is so minuscule that there isn't any profit to be had there. So no reason for Barry to try to steal away the dozen or so people who might buy an X1000.
Maybe this is due to him looking at it from a completely different perspective.
He wants to supply the masses (as far as I understood), while Trev just wants to supply the devs and geeks to lay a foundation for further development of the platform.
So they are aiming at completely different target groups, I'd say...
Once again, this is the same thing I said in post #367. Barry doesn't care about the X1000, or the potential loss of a dozen or so customers. Hell, he doesn't even seem to care about the Amiga community in general! He's more interested in the millions of people who aren't even an active part of the Amiga communities today who still remember the Commodore/Amiga name.
And if Barry realy is a prooven business man as it was repeatedly stated here, he should be aware of that.
But in this case I don't understand why he states things that can be interpreted by those interested in the A1 X1k as if the whole project is just vapourware/a hoax.
It's not Barry's place to try to protect the feelings of people interested in the X1000 project. According to Redrumola, all he said was he contacted A-eon/Hyperion about working with them, and decided that due to the unknown completion of the X1000 project that he would prefer to proceed without them. If that upsets people who thought the project was on schedule and rockin', that isn't Barry's fault.
The only motivation for that that comes to my mind is that he's intentionally spreading F.U.D. in order to torpedo the A1 X1k project.
Correct me, if you think I'm wrong...
Okay, you're wrong.
Think about what's doing more damage to the X1000 project - some unknown appearing and planning to sell rebadged PCs in custom enclosures as C64s and later Amigas; or the delays and missed announced release dates on behalf of A-eon? Or do you think everything is going smoothly with the X1000? It'll be cool when those betatesters start getting their boards, right?
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They didn't.
He's referring to the settlement which gave Hyperion the right to continue to develop Amiga OS, including, but not limited TO 4.
#6
Then people need to stop referring to it as a "loss" or a "win" and get with the reality.
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Okay, let's examine your post #375.
...
According to Redrumola, all he said was he contacted A-eon/Hyperion about working with them, and decided that due to the unknown completion of the X1000 project that he would prefer to proceed without them.
...
I was referring to this statement Red made on behalf of Barry:
... The X1000/OS4 project ... is not a viable option because there is no product near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. ...
I read it that way, that the X1000/OS4 project isn't "near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon" - but I just noticed that he could also have meant it this way: It "doesn't look like it will be any time soon" "a viable option ".
In case it was meant the latter way, I initially misunderstood him.
The way I read it initially seemed to imply he found out something being in strong contradiction to what AEon stated publically so far regarding the state of the A1 X1k project.
Had he worded it this way ... The X1000/OS4 project ... is not a viable option and doesn't look like it will be any time soon because there is no product near completion. ...
I wouldn't have read it the other way initially.
I assumed that a prooven businessman choses his words carefully when talking about his business to avoid such misinterpretations - and so I suspected him to have it intentionally worded this way to create uncertainty and confusion - but that's possibly just me (because not being a native English speaker)...
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I was referring to this statement Red made on behalf of Barry:
... The X1000/OS4 project ... is not a viable option because there is no product near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. ...
I read it that way, that the X1000/OS4 project isn't "near completion and doesn't look like it will be any time soon" - but I just noticed that he could also have meant it this way: It "doesn't look like it will be any time soon" "a viable option ".
In case it was meant the latter way, I initially misunderstood him.
The way I read it initially seemed to imply he found out something being in strong contradiction to what AEon stated publically so far regarding the state of the A1 X1k project.
Had he worded it this way ... The X1000/OS4 project ... is not a viable option and doesn't look like it will be any time soon because there is no product near completion. ...
I wouldn't have read it the other way initially.
I assumed that a prooven businessman choses his words carefully when talking about his business to avoid such misinterpretations - and so I suspected him to have it intentionally worded this way to create uncertainty and confusion - but that's possibly just me (because not being a native English speaker)...
I see where you're coming from now, but I think you're reading too much into it. We don't have Barry's verbatim statement, just Redrumola's recollection of it (which personally I don't doubt). Apparently Barry thought there was some viability to a collaboration or he wouldn't have contacted A-eon/Hyperion. It's not difficult to believe that CUSA's schedule and A-eon's schedule don't intersect.
Besides, what CUSA product would these people waiting on the X1000 jump ship to? The CUSA waiting line?
I guess time will tell if CUSA is really that desperate for customers, but if past history is any indication Barry doesn't care about the existing Amiga communities. Either he's full of crap all around, or he believes the market is bigger than just the few people in the community.
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@Dandy
I think this is a simple misunderstanding on your part. I want to in no way criticise your English skills (I struggle enough with German, though I don't give up my coloquitur often does), but as a native English speaker I found no hint of negativity towards the x1000 only that it wasn't suitable for the C=USA needs.
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When did Amiga Inc lose the amigaOS4 court case?
They didn't, some people are just confused (some people even believes Hyperion owns the OS and owns the Amiga trademarks, which they of course don't).
Here is the situation after the settlement:
Hyperion has built a house (OS4). They have built it by heavily relying on construction materials (Amiga OS 3.1) that are *loaned* (and then they added their own stuff to the construction as well).
Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. And then Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which *are still* owned by Amiga Inc!
Now, who owns the house?
And to connect to the quoted statement above, is there really *any* winners from way the court case ended?
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They didn't, some people are just confused (some people even believes Hyperion owns the OS and owns the Amiga trademarks, which they of course don't).
Here is the situation after the settlement:
Hyperion has built a house (OS4). They have built it by heavily relying on construction materials (Amiga OS 3.1) that are *loaned* (and then they added their own stuff to the construction as well).
Hyperion actually acknowledge in the settlement that the loaned bricks and planks (Amiga OS 3.1) used to build the OS4 house are indeed owned by Amiga Inc. And then Amiga Inc acknowledge in the settlement that the house is owned by Hyperion, *except* for the loaned bricks and planks they used to actually build the house, which *are still* owned by Amiga Inc!
Now, who owns the house?
And to connect to the quoted statement above, is there really *any* winners from way the court case ended?
We both know your question is rhetorical.
Of course not. The old adage is that a settlement is succesful if both sides extricate themselves with an equal amount of disappointment.
#6
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I see where you're coming from now, but I think you're reading too much into it.
Yeah - I simply stumbled across the language barrier and mis-read it.
...
Apparently Barry thought there was some viability to a collaboration or he wouldn't have contacted A-eon/Hyperion. It's not difficult to believe that CUSA's schedule and A-eon's schedule don't intersect.
Now this is more obvious - sorry for the confusion.
Besides, what CUSA product would these people waiting on the X1000 jump ship to? The CUSA waiting line?
Well, I can only speak for myself.
And when I read that a new Comodore incarnation would want to take the Amiga platform to a new level I felt a mix of unbelieving amazement and pleasant anticipation initially. But this was replaced by disappointment when I read that their new hardware would be a bog standard x86-PC mobo in a re-created all-in-one classic case, meant to run an Amiga-like skinned Linux derivate - mostly for gaming purposes (WHD load) - which would presumably not be able to run native 68k apps.
As I'm not interested in gaming, but in CAE/CAD/CAM/robotics/CNC and all sort of engineering tools in general, I lost all initial hope of ever being able to run my old 68k Amiga apps covering these fields (which are still fully usable in 2011, b.t.w.) on their new systems.
Furthermore I moved from my trusty, old A500 to the A4kPPC in a BigTower because of the better expandibility as soon as I could afford it. Although I had expanded the A500 to the limit I had need for more expandability.
As I doubted that any of C=USAs new devices could offer me this expandability, I realised that I don't belong to their target group.
Basically I don't mind the idea to run the Amiga OS on x86 systems because of their prices and availability, as long as that means I can still use my old native 68k CAE/CAD/CAM/robotics/CNC-apps and all my old 68k engineering tools, which have cost a fortune back in the day (e.g. 2.500 DM just for DynaCADD).
As I would need those apps only for hobby purpose today (e.g. to design and build an steam operated H0 scale steam locomotive that can be remote controlled from the Miggy on a model railway), I don't like the idea of having to spend a fortune again on buying Linux equivalents for all the engineering tools I already have on 68k. Even without that I still would have to spend enough cash on the required CNC machines, when it comes to the realisation of the project.
As far as DynaCADD is concerned, I already contacted the author and asked him if he sees a possibility for a native OS4 port and he answered yes...
Furthermore the announced capabilities of the A1 X1k of controlling hardware, DSP functions, robotics, display might come in very handy for the project - so I'm really looking forward to learn what that XENA is all about and if/how the project could benefit from it.
The estimated 2000€ for that box would still be less expensive than buying all the engineering tools for Linux...
So I wish C=USA luck for their nostalgic x86-Linux gaming boxes in all-in-one retro cases - unfortunately I doubt I will have any use for them.
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@Dandy
I think this is a simple misunderstanding on your part.
Yes.
Fortunatedly jorkany was patient enough with me to make me aware of my misunderstanding.
I want to in no way criticise your English skills (I struggle enough with German, though I don't give up my coloquitur often does),
Then all the best for your German skills...
;-)
but as a native English speaker I found no hint of negativity towards the x1000 only that it wasn't suitable for the C=USA needs.
Yeah - once I knew how to read it my concern vanished into thin air...
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The old adage is that a settlement is succesful if both sides extricate themselves with an equal amount of disappointment.
Indeed, well put.
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And to connect to the quoted statement above, is there really *any* winners from way the court case ended?
Hyperion has the exclusive right to market, develop, sell AmigaOS 4. AFAIK they are not legally bound to PPC anymore. I think Hyperion would consider this advantageous for them.
Amiga Inc. has the Amiga trademark to license. Probably they also consider this advantageous, we'll see how good this turns out. They are not allowed to compete with AmigaOS 4 and beyond though.
greets,
Staf.
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Hyperion has the exclusive right to market, develop, sell AmigaOS 4. AFAIK they are not legally bound to PPC anymore. I think Hyperion would consider this advantageous for them.
If some rich entity would turn up at Hyperion's office and say: "Hey, that's one cool OS you have got going there, Can I Byu It? I'd offer $50 millions!", then Hyperion *couldn't* sell it, even if they would want to (which they probably would).
They probably can't even use it as security for a loan, since it's not their property.
The only way they can get *any* kind of return of their investments, is from sales of individual copies of the OS, which is now tied to the sales of Sam460 and the "x1000". Sales that will be counted in the lower end of 2-3 figures.
Anyway, we aren't talking about a lot of money here...
Amiga Inc. has the Amiga trademark to license. Probably they also consider this advantageous, we'll see how good this turns out. They are not allowed to compete with AmigaOS 4 and beyond though.
Amiga Inc still owns and controls *all relevant* (in 2011) IP. The way I see it, they aren't the losers in the deal.
If licensees like Commodore will actually score by hitting some real market, they (the Amiga IP owners) can make good money in royalties!
:)
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Well, I can only speak for myself.
And when I read that a new Comodore incarnation would want to take the Amiga platform to a new level I felt a mix of unbelieving amazement and pleasant anticipation initially. But this was replaced by disappointment when I read that their new hardware would be a bog standard x86-PC mobo in a re-created all-in-one classic case, meant to run an Amiga-like skinned Linux derivate - mostly for gaming purposes (WHD load) - which would presumably not be able to run native 68k apps.
As I'm not interested in gaming, but in CAE/CAD/CAM/robotics/CNC and all sort of engineering tools in general, I lost all initial hope of ever being able to run my old 68k Amiga apps covering these fields (which are still fully usable in 2011, b.t.w.) on their new systems.
Furthermore I moved from my trusty, old A500 to the A4kPPC in a BigTower because of the better expandibility as soon as I could afford it. Although I had expanded the A500 to the limit I had need for more expandability.
As I doubted that any of C=USAs new devices could offer me this expandability, I realised that I don't belong to their target group.
Basically I don't mind the idea to run the Amiga OS on x86 systems because of their prices and availability, as long as that means I can still use my old native 68k CAE/CAD/CAM/robotics/CNC-apps and all my old 68k engineering tools, which have cost a fortune back in the day (e.g. 2.500 DM just for DynaCADD).
As I would need those apps only for hobby purpose today (e.g. to design and build an steam operated H0 scale steam locomotive that can be remote controlled from the Miggy on a model railway), I don't like the idea of having to spend a fortune again on buying Linux equivalents for all the engineering tools I already have on 68k. Even without that I still would have to spend enough cash on the required CNC machines, when it comes to the realisation of the project.
I don't know why you would think that. CUSA's machines will certainly be able to run 68k code. They will do it the same way that any of the PPC Amiga solutions would run it, via emulation. PPC processors do not run 68k code natively any more than an x86. CUSA has stated that they have the rights to distribute the original Kickstarts and Workbenches, and that they will be integrating UAE into their distribution. This means that all of your existing 68k applications should work just as well on a CUSA system as on an OS4 or MorphOS system.
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@EdanaII,
If it won't have an Amiga-like OS, then C=USA is making a fatal mistake. Better to call it the Commodore Colt or the Commodore PC10 than the Amiga.
You know I forgot about the Commodore Colt, brings back memories, trying to convince people to buy the Amiga instead of the Colt when I worked for Commodore as a salesman.
smerf
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Hi smerf... :)
Methinks your fibbing, telling porky pies, winding us up... ;)
COMMODORE... SALESMAN...
No such beastie every existed, that's like saying I once worked as a hitman for Mother Teresa or I sold seashells on the seashore... :)
Wind up... Surely... :)
Franko
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Did you read the article I linked? Coke did all the right things, made all the correct choices, except for one thing: they ignored the "cult" that supported them.
When entering a new market, or in this case, being a new entry into the market, don't ignore your early adopters. It could make all the difference. And who are the early adopters in an Amiga branded market? Ummm... all you have to do is read here and get the majority of opinions. At least, you can get a good idea of who they aren't. :)
If it won't have an Amiga-like OS, then C=USA is making a fatal mistake. Better to call it the Commodore Colt (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/compc.gif) or the Commodore PC10 (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/commypc_group.jpg) than the Amiga.
If they don't, those prodigal Amigans they do bring back will end up wondering why their "Coke tastes funny."
People who own A4000s aren't silly enough to fall for this C=USA stuff ;)
Hi,
@Digiman,
I own 2 A4000's
One that is working and one that I am trying to fix, and I also own 2 A3000's in same situation.
I sort of like what C-USA is doing, and had planned doing something similar myself except I was going to butcher an A500 and a C64, put an mini AT board in them and run an emulator, windows xp and possibley Ubuntu.
Sooooo
I will take this as a personnel attack on me because you are saying I am silly. (sniff, sniff, tears in eyes) get him red.
my wittle smerf feelings are hurt,
smerf
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Hi smerf... :)
Methinks your fibbing, telling porky pies, winding us up... ;)
COMMODORE... SALESMAN...
No such beastie every existed, that's like saying I once worked as a hitman for Mother Teresa or I sold seashells on the seashore... :)
Wind up... Surely... :)
Franko
Hi,
I sure did work for Commodore, I worked for them for three years as a salesman, and won salesman of the year for three years straight Selling Amiga 500' s, Amiga 2000's, Colts, PC10's and PC20's. The funniest event I had was when a women walked in and told me she wanted to buy a hard dick for her husband on his birthday. I calmly showed her some of the new 10 megabyte and 20 megabyte hard disks that we had in the store and then I and the Apple salesman died laughing when she left.
smerf
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Hi Smerf
:lol:
Yup back in the old days if you had a 10 megabyte hard dick it was thought of as being huge but if you had 20 megabyte one you were called Errol Flynn... :)
Franko
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I don't know why you would think that. CUSA's machines will certainly be able to run 68k code. They will do it the same way that any of the PPC Amiga solutions would run it, via emulation. PPC processors do not run 68k code natively any more than an x86. CUSA has stated that they have the rights to distribute the original Kickstarts and Workbenches, and that they will be integrating UAE into their distribution. This means that all of your existing 68k applications should work just as well on a CUSA system as on an OS4 or MorphOS system.
Hmmmm - I have to admit that once I lost interest in their products, I didn't follow their annoucements closely any longer and just read what I stumbled across on the fora.
Initially it looked like they wanted to put AROS on their machines besides Linux, but then I read that this would be not viable because of legal reasons.
But AFAIK, even AROS does not run native 68k apps without having them re-compiled.
And currently there is no hint that the apps I need are going to be re-compiled anytime, as they mostly have been discontinued a loooong time ago.
So I assumed the C=USA systems just ran Linux. Of course one can install UAE and emulate a classic environment that way, but this is not the way OS4 does it. While UAE emulates the entire classic hardware, OS4 just emulates the API. That's quite a difference to me - at least technically.
And practically as well - hardware banging stuff won't work any longer.
I'm fully aware that "PPC processors do not run 68k code natively any more than an x86" - but that's not what I said.
Instead I said: "as long as that means I can still use my old native 68k ... apps" - I did not say that I wanted to run my old 68k apps natively on the PPC.
Anyhow - even if I could really run native 68k soft on CUSA systems, I would still have the issue of the all-in-one cases obviously not being as expandable as the A1 X1k cases.
And expandability is what I need for my projects.
Furthermore I already hinted that XENA might come in very handy for my project.
On C=USA systems I'd have to add an external solution, while the X1000 has that built-in.
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Hi Smerf
:lol:
Yup back in the old days if you had a 10 megabyte hard dick it was thought of as being huge but if you had 20 megabyte one you were called Errol Flynn... :)
Franko
Hi Franko,
Not wanting to brag about size here - but back in the old days I had two 65 mB RLL harddisks connected to my A500 via Omti RLL controller and 'ct-interface - just curious how that would have been called...
:biggrin:
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Hi Smerf
:lol:
Yup back in the old days if you had a 10 megabyte hard dick it was thought of as being huge but if you had 20 megabyte one you were called Errol Flynn... :)
Franko
Hi Franko,
Not wanting to brag about size here - but back in the old days I had two 65 mB RLL harddisks connected to my A500 via Omti RLL controller and 'ct-interface - just curious how that would have been called...
:lol:
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@Dandy
FWIW AROS 68k can run original amiga apps, that's the point of AROS :)
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Hi Franko,
Not wanting to brag about size here - but back in the old days I had two 65 mB RLL harddisks connected to my A500 via Omti RLL controller and 'ct-interface - just curious how that would have been called...
:lol:
Hi Dandy
Well if you had two of them then I reckon "Circus Show Freak" or "The Elephant Man" would have been appropriate... :)
(I remember paying £459 for my 120MB HD for my old A1500... :eek:)
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@Dandy
FWIW AROS 68k can run original amiga apps, that's the point of AROS :)
Now you confuse me - AROS 68k???
I thought AROS was for x86 architecture?
Why would I want to run an 68k version of AROS on an 68k machine, that runs 68k apps anyway?
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Now you confuse me - AROS 68k???
I thought AROS was for x86 architecture?
Why would I want to run an 68k version of AROS on an 68k machine, that runs 68k apps anyway?
Appologies, I thought you were aware of this.
AROS currently runs on x86/PPC/68k and ARM... On the 68k original Amiga applications run as they would on AmigaOS.
The key advantage with AROS is that you can run an Amiga emulator (or MiniMig/Replay/Natami) like UAE without the need to have a real Amiga ROM (which is obviously copyrighted), plus AROS can take advantage of modern features natively without the need to patch the system.
-
I don't know why you would think that. CUSA's machines will certainly be able to run 68k code. They will do it the same way that any of the PPC Amiga solutions would run it, via emulation. PPC processors do not run 68k code natively any more than an x86. CUSA has stated that they have the rights to distribute the original Kickstarts and Workbenches, and that they will be integrating UAE into their distribution. This means that all of your existing 68k applications should work just as well on a CUSA system as on an OS4 or MorphOS system.
Running 68k apps in OS4, MorphOS or AROS (when it gets that far), while emulating the CPU, runs the apps with native APIs, and that's a huge difference. If I want to run 68k software on another system it needs to be run in an emulated system, that means its own OS install, desktop etc. in a window, potentially with different menu layouts, shortcuts and limitations like lack of drag n drop and ARexx between native apps and the 68k apps in the emulated system. There are no such limitations when running 68k software on OS4 etc. Most people couldn't even tell the difference between a 68k and PPC app running under OS4/MorphOS, and that's a huge difference from the UAE scenario of running 68k software on foreign systems.
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Hi Dandy
Well if you had two of them then I reckon "Circus Show Freak" or "The Elephant Man" would have been appropriate... :)
:lol:
(I remember paying £459 for my 120MB HD for my old A1500... :eek:)
Mine was a do-it-yourself solution. IIRC, I payed somewhat around 60 DM for the 'ct-interface, that provided one PC_XT slot to fit the OMTI RLL controller into (which I got for free when dismantling an old PC), where I could connect two RLL drives to (I got two 65 mB drives for free from a friend who had no longer use for this old stuff).
Annother friend had a nice external case for two 5 1/4" devices that he no longer had use for and donated it to me.
This case provided enough space to fit the OMTI RLL in it, as well as the interior equipment of an PC PSU. That way I got rid of the original A500 PSU.
Looked quite professional.
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Now you confuse me - AROS 68k???
I thought AROS was for x86 architecture?
Why would I want to run an 68k version of AROS on an 68k machine, that runs 68k apps anyway?
AROS is open source, and so can go places other OSes cannot.
An advantage of running AROS on a 68K machine is that AROS is still being actively developed.
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Thanks for sharing your story.
I think that any new "Amiga" is much more appealing with a Catweasel card to read Amiga floppy disks. I have a Catweasel in both of my Umithlon machines and 1 in the FeeCee I run UAE on as well. My wife and I have thousands of 3 1/2" disks (I was AmigaAtlanta PD librarian for 10 years) and its neato-cool to still be able to use them just like we did last century.
The drive even sounds the same!
The CatWeasel is awesome hardware and every time I add another emulated Amiga: I buy another CatWeasel to make it much more like a Commodore Amiga.
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Amiga Inc still owns and controls *all relevant* (in 2011) IP. The way I see it, they aren't the losers in the deal.
...
:)
Nice spin on the history. And I thought that A.Inc sued Hyperion to get the right for AOS4. AFAICS they did not succeed in that. I don't think they had to sue Hyperion to keep the trademark on the Amiga name or for OS3.x
greets,
Staf.
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Nice spin on the history. And I thought that A.Inc sued Hyperion to get the right for AOS4. AFAICS they did not succeed in that. I don't think they had to sue Hyperion to keep the trademark on the Amiga name or for OS3.x
greets,
Staf.
I took TMHG's "relevant IP" as meaning as far as what AI has as far as source code, trademarks, and copyrights.
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Sorry Jim,
But the man is a <--- moderated myself there.
Try an convince him to make a sane business plan.
Hell, if he marketed "Amiga" products along the lines of cases for classic machines, Minimig, FPGA or Natami then I'd buy them.
This whole "Amiga PC" with "Workbench 5" is utter crap!
dont you get it the amiga thing is hot air and smoke screen to take attention away from the x1000 camp , same old ploy amiga inc used .
fine if you want build a pc in c64 looking case fine but dont try sell the amiga crap
he either just hyping it up hoping to draw attention or backing to his project
as for them going on about the cost of the case design that just what you have to pay for
the plastic tooling and dyes nothing unusaul about that but doesint mean its some great plan
bottom line for this to work he got sell thousands of pcs with retro cases
and there already others on the market good luck with that
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I took TMHG's "relevant IP" as meaning as far as what AI has as far as source code, trademarks, and copyrights.
I know, and my point is that they already got that before they sued Hyperion.
Ok, summary of the history (with my spin on it of course :) ):
- A.Inc: Hyperion, we own the right to AOS4 give it to us.
- Hyperion: No sir, sue us if you want it.
- A. Inc sues
- A.Inc & Hyperion fight rolling over the floor...
- Hyperion: We won, we got the exclusive right to AmigaOS4 and next versions.
- A.Inc: We won, we kept our right to OS3,x and the Amiga name
greets,
Staf.
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...
CUSA's machines
...
Wow - up to now I didn't know CUSA have their own St. Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_of_Cusa)...