Market research for new PowerPC system

[markos]

I was pointed to this forum, I didn't know there existed a separate discussion here. Anyway, as noted in:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#509376

I appreciate the noise, but there are a few points I'd like to mention:

* I am not a Mythical Hero.
* This is not vapourware, I do indeed plan to invest on this.
* MorphOS and AmigaOS were not target OSes in the beginning, Linux and Haiku were. Whatever you say, Linux is a huge market for embedded AND PowerPC, and Haiku has a great potential. I would like to think that this effort is not a one-off. That is, I hope to sell enough to fund the next batch and then the next and then an upgrade, and another, etc. Whether AmigaOS/MorphOS are supported that will depend heavily on the number of users that ask this and the dev teams involved. If only 10 people ask for AmigaOS support, then it's not going to happen.
* For those who haven't seen it yet, Haiku is going to do on the desktop what Linux failed to do (not now, in a few years).
* Variety is good. PPC is not dead, and unless something really bad happens -eg. Freescale/IBM close down- it won't really die.

In any case, I'll blog about the mails I receive so far, which are surprisingly enough, given that I posted this thing <24h ago.

So, I understand the sceptiscism, I really appreciate the feedback, I note everything and I will take into consideration all important comments.

About the last comment. I'm sorry, I don't see how investing money into software for the AmigaOS, will be successful. That's for the Amiga Software companies, and IMHO, that would be even more suicidal than investing in hardware, but that's just MHO.

Regards

Konstantinos

PS. Yes it's really me.

[TheMagicM]

If Linux and Haiku is your primary goal.. what does your system offer vs. a Atom 330 dual core setup at about $80 ?

[recidivist]

Anybody developing products for Amiga market is a hero to some.
It was meant to be compliment.

[markos]

Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.

Regards

Konstantinos

[persia]

Haiku ppc?  Isn't that more a dream than a reality?  And Linux?  You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it.  You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on PPC.  You gain nothing in return for the losses.  Look at Apple, sales have tripled since the Intel switchover.  

So you have no OS, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of Intel, why would anyone give you money for that?

[TheMagicM]

haiku ppc?  Isn't that more a dream than a reality?  And linux?  You have yellow dog on ppc and that's about it.  You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on ppc.  You gain nothing in return for the losses.  Look at apple, sales have tripled since the intel switchover.  

So you have no os, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of intel, why would anyone give you money for that?

qft

[tone007]

And Linux?  You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it.

The newest versions of Ubuntu continue to support PPC Macs, and they actually work fairly well (a whole lot less hardware to support there.)

However, Haiku is funny.  It looks like Linux looked 10+ years ago, I can't see that taking off and being wildly successful.

[gertsy]

I think in 10 seconds both my legs will fall off......
......
.....
...
..
.

Nup still there !.


Gertsy

[the_leander]

Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.

You should be aware one of the biggest complaints about BeOS and by extension Haiku was it's lack of hardware support, now there are plans to integrate gallium3d but the question remains - does your ppc board offer enough value added to offset the large cost difference? So far as I know most of the development effort for Haiku as been aimed squarely at X86.

Certainly as a desktop offering I think you're walking a very dodgy path.

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.

In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.

[dammy]

In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.

ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86.  One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo?  Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos.  Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?

[markos]

ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86. One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo? Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos. Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?

The first production run will be about 500 units. This will be used to fund the next and so on. Well, that's going to be the way, unless I manage to get an investor with huge pockets and order 10k units at once... (unlikely given the current situation).

If you think that porting AmigaOS and MorphOS to ARM would be of benefit just for a single motherboard, then I think you got this on a wrong basis. It would be the start for many nice things, eg. eventually, one might just sell AmigaOS-loaded Beagleboards, or sth like that. The potential is big. Anyway, you know, if the PowerPC thing doesn't gather enough interest, I'd just as well try my luck on ARM.

Konstantinos

[yssing]

I think thsi is great, and, depending on the cost, I might very much be ineterested.

To all those, who say, there is no pint, since there is X86, I wonder if you drive the same car, since, there is no point in anything else, we have Ford.
And there is no point in alternative OS, there is Windows...

Come on, there is a market for PPC based boards...

Go for it

[jorkany]

So, I understand the sceptiscism, I really appreciate the feedback, I note everything and I will take into consideration all important comments.

You might want to get in touch with Acube and ask them how it's going. Their SAM board is ostensibly for the embedded market and "just happens" to run OS4 - they've been at it for a couple years now so they have some idea of how an upstart in the PPC market can survive.

There was another company called Eyetech who did the same thing but they went out of business.

If you remove the "for profit" qualifier from your equation you'll probably be fine.

[dammy]

This announcement is not even over a day old and you are already making this call. Give the guy a chance... or is it that it is PPC that you don't like the idea?

I think the thread title of "Market research for new PowerPC system" tells me this is indeed vaporware and it's PPC vaporware at that.  PPC sales are dead end, look at the laughable sales numbers for A1/Pegs/SAMs.  It would be cheaper for him to have OS4/MOS ported to a ready made x86 or ARM system plus whatever other OS he wants vs dipping for the PPC monster out of the tarpit.

[markos]

@Dammy

You know it's posts like this that make me want to start this sooner than later. So far, in just one day of a post, I've received ~40 mails of interest. I've set a milestone, end of October to see if I'll manage to surpass 500. And I don't think you know what "profitable" business means. If I manage to make even 1 euro out of every board, that will be a profitable business. Stupid, but profitable. In truth I plan to have a sane profit, if only to be able to fund the next production batch. This is too much hassle to be a one-off production. And it's not that I would need it anyway, I'm doing quite ok doing enterprise and embedded applications so far.

But enough words from me. If you don't believe me, that's respected. I'd love to prove you wrong though and I can only do it with actions (building the board), and not words.

Konstantinos

[dammy]

The first production run will be about 500 units. This will be used to fund the next and so on. Well, that's going to be the way, unless I manage to get an investor with huge pockets and order 10k units at once... (unlikely given the current situation).

If you think that porting AmigaOS and MorphOS to ARM would be of benefit just for a single motherboard, then I think you got this on a wrong basis. It would be the start for many nice things, eg. eventually, one might just sell AmigaOS-loaded Beagleboards, or sth like that. The potential is big. Anyway, you know, if the PowerPC thing doesn't gather enough interest, I'd just as well try my luck on ARM.

Konstantinos

500 minus hold back for warranty replacement of say 50 at a bare minimum would be 450.  Don't think I would risk that much money on either porting a OS to it or actual manufacturing of it unless there was a signed contract for the rest.  Worst of all, what if there is a major flaw or bug in the chips like we have seen in the past PPC systems?  And they do have issues as we have seen posted over the years.

From what I have seen so far of what the business plan looks like, I'd run in the opposite direction as fast I could unless this is popcorn money that can be throw away with little concern.  ARM would be a better option, let Genesi do the heavy lifting on the A9 Dual core that is coming out in six months and pay for whatever ports you want from Amigaland.  I can think of two Open Source OSs in Amigaland that could use a archangel that are moving to ARM.