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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: barney on May 12, 2009, 11:30:41 PM
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Hello, I was just wondering which of these Amiga monitors is higher quality: the Commodore 1080 or Commodore 1084. I know they have some obvious physical differences but which one in your opinion is sharper/clearer/higher quality/more solidly built? Thanks.
Barney
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1080 is superior IMHO. Darker tube = better contrast. Blacker blacks, whiter whites kind of thing. Tube had a matte finish also, 1084 is glossy and comes with all the glare a glossy screen is known for. 1080 was built better too, as far as I can tell. I've seen way more blown up 1084's comparatively. Iffin' I'm not mistaken:
1080 - mono and made by Goldstar (later made tubes for Zenith)
1084 & 1084s - the 's' is for Stereo and made by Philips of Philips/Magnavox fame
1084SD1 - stereo, last of the reg. Commodore RGB line and made by Samsung
Oh - but the one thing that SUCKS about the 1080: it's either PAL or NTSC. Cannot switch to either, unlike the 1084+'s :-( Many, many, many Philips tubes were shipped misaligned. Their RGB guns as it were. Not a seriously huge problem if you know how to calibrate, but still. I'd also say that the image might have appeared sharper on the 1084, almost as if the dot-pitch spec was higher, but not until you properly aligned her. I'll always have a penchant for the original 1080 though :-)
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Thanks for the info save2600, that was interesting. Just curious as to how one calibrates the 1084. Does the cover have to be removed to re-calibrate?
Barney
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Oh yeah, it requires you to remove the back all right. Not a bad idea to use a large mirror as you're adjusting also. There are several convergence adjustments that need to be made on the yoke of a picture tube. They're ALL glued as to not be shaken loose, but as quality control has progressively blown chunks throughout the years (can you say unfair_trade_practice or 'sweatshop'?), I do not recommend just anyone try this though. Major shock risk if you've never attempted before and/or are a clumsy oaf. Here's some great info in layman's terms what we're talking about:
Linky to monitor FAQ's (http://www.zekfrivolous.com/faq/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtppc)
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save2600 wrote:
1084SD1 - stereo, last of the reg. Commodore RGB line and made by Samsung
I have a 1084S-D2, any info on this one?
Thanks.
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Looks like the BBOAH has some more info. Quite surprised to see a few other manufactures made tubes (Hitachi, Toshiba, etc.) as I've only seen Philip's & Samsung's. Perhaps the others were produced for Europa, etc. Never heard of the SD-2.
Linky to BBOAH (http://www.amiga-hardware.com)
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The 1084P (boxy version) is nice as it does PAL and NTSC well. Where the others do not as they don't resize nicely. 1084D2 is pretty much the same as D1 but white to match the 600/1200/4000 series...
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Ahhh... makes sense. The SD1 is more cream or egg-shell white to match early Commodore A1200's and late A500's. I had an A500 when I bought my first 1084SD1. Loved the styling and feel of it compared to a Philips 1084s that was replaced (which as you say, was boxy and kinda cheap feeling). Boy... this conversation is really bringing back the Commodore-era memories! $300-$400 (actually, most of the time it was around $329) was A LOT of money for a frickin' RGB monitor back in the day. Even then, I knew Amiga stuff was kinda expensive comparatively. VGA and the soon to follow SVGA monitors were already out. The fact we had to purchase a (expletive) 3rd party, warranty voiding FF/SD back then and ONLY for use with Workbench compatible software put a REAL damper on Amiga purchases for me. And then there was this filter you taped over the God forsaken 15khz monitor that "reduced" the flickering. LOL! You had to crank the brightness and contrast waaaaay up though to compensate. No wonder many of these Philips made 1084's were crap-ola before too long!
Still, we made do with what we could afford and by gum... wouldn't think of trading the experience in for anything :-)
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Keep in mind that the 1080 is older than the 1084... So it's likely to be closer to it's death than a 1084. I had a 1080 that I got with my original 1000 back in 87 or so.... it died a bizarre death before all of my newer 1084s. On the other hand, I never saw a 1080 in the shop, lots of 1084s though.
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Yeah back in the day I had to buy a used 1080 monitor (from the classifieds lol) for my A500 as I could not afford a new one (commodore 1084 or 2002 at the time, both with the same styling as the 1084.) Ah memories!
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@TjLaZer:
I remember the good old 'Advertiser' days! Would scour those every Wednesday and Sunday, looking for Amiga goodies. But alas, was always forced to buy new as everyone in my community had the gee-whiz enough to not sell their wares! lol We had a few Amiga shops semi-near us where I bought my first A1000 from, but they were priced at strict MSRP's on their new stuff. Soon after I discovered I could not afford to upgrade my A1000 (it really did not make monetary sense to upgrade those machines back then), ended up getting an A500 & 1084 from Montgomery Grant. Amiga in 1988... packaged in those sleek lines of patriotic red, white and blue. Delivered straight to the door. Ahhh.... :pint:
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TjLaZer wrote:
The 1084P (boxy version) is nice as it does PAL and NTSC well. Where the others do not as they don't resize nicely.
what do you mean?
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It means if you have a 1080 monitor designed around a 50hz supply, and you're in Aussieland viewing NTSC images, the total image is never going to fill the entire screen.
Just as in the U.S. when viewing PAL images on our 60hz NTSC system. This is why we all want Fat 1MB Agnus's in our A1000's and a nice, crisp 1084 (or an OCS/ECS Indivision) so we can have the best of both worlds :-)
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Oh - but the one thing that SUCKS about the 1080: it's either PAL or NTSC. Cannot switch to either, unlike the 1084+'s
I don't know what you mean. I've got a 1080 and I regularly switch between PAL and NTSC with no problems.
I like the 1080 better than the 1084. The matte finish makes a big difference. I think the 1084 is a bit brighter though.
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You don't notice 1/4 of the screen missing? Chopped off?
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No, it is exactly as the 1084. PAL is cut off a bit - unless you adjust the V-Height - no different from the 1084.
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It's not that simple. The V-height in every single 1080 I have ever owned and spent time with (at least a dozen), has never allowed for proper PAL viewing. I currently own three and NONE of them allow me to view PAL images in their entirety.
Yes, you can stretch the V-height, and move it slightly upwards with the other pot, but there is still severe cropping. You're simply moving the image up from the bottom, what do you think happens to the image at the top?
Perhaps most people are accustomed to viewing this way? (cropped) or are used to using their native broadcast system - I dunno.
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"Severe cropping"? You must have some strange versions of the 1080 because mine, as I said, is no different from my four 1084 monitors in the display of PAL screens. With V-Height adjusted, you can view the entire PAL screen. I don't keep mine like that though because everything ends up looking squashed. I have my 1080 set up to display 692x482 (NTSC) as seen in this screenshot (http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2804=1).
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Sorry, I'm talking about the application of commercial games of course :-) - which are very strict in their graphics modes. Not Workbench editable screenmodes w/ overscan prefs, etc. Also not talking about opening up the monitor and playing around with the V-width pot or an H-width pot that doesn't exist. If memory serves, the latter is in the form of a resistor (strange it's not a coil), that could be substituted with a variable resistor (pot). Hmm....
In any event: V-height adjustment on a 1080 is in the rear and requires a very small and precise screwdriver that only allows for so much tolerance. Vertical Hold is the adjustment I was talking about that allows you to (barely) move the image upwards in order to display *most* of the PAL image (and in doing so, you crop off some of the top obviously). But... going back to NTSC, given you've adjusted your 1080 for PAL modes, is a PITA to get back to normal. 1080 sucks as a multi-system monitor plain and simple.
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Yes the 1080 does do PAL but it is not 100% like on a real PAL monitor. The 1084P does both PAL and NTSC perfectly. What I mean by that is the screen is completely visible. Like load up a WB 1.3 disk and break to CLI, expand the window. It fits perfectly in PAL and NTSC. No need to fiddle with the height knob on the back!
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I still don't know what you're talking about. I can run PAL games and PAL demos (not Workbench modes) perfectly fine without "severe cropping". As I said, in my experience, there is absolutely no difference in viewing PAL screens on a 1080 and a 1084. (...and I assume that was the point of this conversation)
Edit: My reply was to save2600 - on the difference between 1080 and 1084, not to TjLaZer on the benefits of 1084P. Of course having complete PAL visible without fiddling or squashing would be best.
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@mr_a500:
I'm confused... so you're admitting multi-region viewing in its entirety is not possible without major fiddling (because that has been my experience)? If not, I think it is *you* that have the special 1080's in your country! :-D
I *will* drag a couple of 1080's upstairs tomorrow and give them a whirl on my A2500 with its fattest Aggie and easily switchable PAL/NTSC modes for fooks sake. But it really sounds like you have tweaked your particular monitor(s) to look 'acceptable' in either mode and that you are just not familiar enough with the difference between the two.
As evidenced by their design, Commodore released these early computers and peripherals to be region specific. It was not until a generation or two later that we had Agnus and multi-system capable monitors at our disposal.
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Another great benefit on the 1084 model was its screen adjustment dials. You are able to resize the screen and move in in both vertical and horizontal directions. I don't believe the 1080 is as user friendly in this area.
Barney
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Precisely, even though those necessary PAL/NTSC squishing/expanding adjustments are in the rear. Keep in mind though, all of this doesn't mean a hoot if you've got an A1000 or a 512kb Chip Ram Agnus in your A500/A2000. You still ain't gonna get PAL to display properly, no matter how many dials you turn :-(
But yeah, nice that they put the Horizontal Phase adjustment in the front of the 1084SD1. The more adjustments the better I always say! lol
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I think it is *you* that have the special 1080's in your country!
You could be right. Not only that, but I think Canada got a cheap version of the 1084 without external adjustment knobs - so that's why I say there's no difference (in PAL display).
But it really sounds like you have tweaked your particular monitor(s) to look 'acceptable' in either mode and that you are just not familiar enough with the difference between the two.
Yes, I tweaked my monitors to look acceptable in either mode, but I am certainly familiar with the difference between the two. (Do you think I'm blind? I can tell in a second the difference between PAL and NTSC. I can even tell if one pixel is not right!)
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@save2600
Please stop editing your post so I can have a chance to properly reply!
I'm confused... so you're admitting multi-region viewing in its entirety is not possible without major fiddling (because that has been my experience)?
The whole point of discussion is the difference between 1080 and 1084, right? On both the 1080 and 1084, you have to do major fiddling to view PAL in its entirety (at least on the original 1084, not the 1084S or 1084D or 1084P). So what is your point?
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The funny thing is I spent all this money on a flicker fixer for my Amiga 2000, a nice 17" LCD and I thought I was in high heaven. A few days ago, I plugged in an old 1080 and I got nostalgic. I appreciated my Amiga more. Games looked more fun and it felt like the good old days.
Barney
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Get the CLI tools "NTSC" and "PAL" and run them in a CLI and you will see what i'm talking about. Switching from PAL to NTSC on the fly in WB. On a 1084P the screen adjusts nicely, on the 1080 it does not. PAL displays but it's not like it should (ie bottom can be chopped off) Now of course you can adjust the vertical to have a squashed NTSC screen and PAL will look ok! But that's cheating...
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@mr_A500:
Didn't mean to imply you were blind! :lol:
Getting dead tired here, but God knows there's always room for error here, but AFAIK in the U.S., even the earliest 1084's (plural, not 's') handled PAL as appropriately as the exterior controls would allow. By that I mean, yes... we've always had to adjust the vertical height and positioning in the back (1084+), but it would fill the entire screen at least and you could see everything you were supposed to. When you wanted to revert to NTSC, it was a simple matter of doing the reverse.
The original point being (and maybe I should have phrased it a little differently) is that in my experience, the 1080's released to the U.S. will *always* crop a PAL image and that no amount of adjusting (posterior or internally) will change that fact. The chassis is simply not designed without modification to:
a) squish the image (no vertical length adjustment).
b) raise the screen up in order to view it in its entirety (vertical height is severely limited).
...gosh, did the 1942/1950/1960 even have these capabilities? It's been so long now, I'd have to look them up. Almost too tired to wait for my Mac to shut down. Sometimes it hangs if I have an SD card in it. lol Wish I was posting on my Amiga so I could just turn the tootin' thing off! Goodnight!
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Well I was going to say that what you say confirms that Canada had different 1080s.... but then I remembered that I bought my 1080 on eBay - from the US.
I suggest you open your 1080 and adjust it. You'll probably see that with a bit of fiddling, you can get PAL displayed properly. (..and if you don't want NTSC squashed, you can just crop PAL slightly - only losing the top & bottom 15 pixels - still useable for PAL games and demos)
Of course, a 1084P that you don't have to screw around with would probably be the best monitor to get.
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Got a RARE 1081 and 1084S-P here in this 50 Hz RGB country.
Both support very well 50 and 60 Hz modes on the fly.
The 1081 is far supperior to the 1084S-P (even if they look like 2 twins).
But I got B&W when I put my Toshiba HDDVD player (composite out) on the 1081 with HDDVD(60Hz so NTSC...) and color with PAL DVD (50 Hz)...
Both well setted, I don't see crop like a tweaked "MonoFrequency" monitor.
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I never had a 1084 but I had 3 1080s and they lasted 20 years before they died. I doubt these new HDTVs or flat screen pc monitors will last that long.They built them to last back then. I know the 1080 was made in Japan, but were the 1084s made in japan too?
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I have 2 1080s here (and a couple of 1084s as well) and noticed the other day that one of the 1080s that I had will not do PAL at all. If I feed it a PAL signal, it just rolls like if you fed a normal NTSC television a PAL signal. This is the first time I've come across it during my 20+ years of using Amiga monitors. Like the other posters, I had always assumed that all 1080s could do PAL/NTSC.
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Dumb question, but did you try adjusting the vertical hold adjustment in the front? The image will sit up a little higher than an NTSC image, but it'll still be plenty viewable.
If the v.hold doesn't do the trick, your model may or may not have a tiny/chinsey (easily breakable) v.sync pot inside the case, which takes an alan wrench to adjust the lead based coil. If not, it's a regular trim pot that takes a very small slotted screwdriver. Either way, should straighten it out if the v.hold fails you.
@AmigaPixel:
The later 1084's were made in Korea, Malaysia and maybe even Mexico.
@mr_A500:
I opened up my beloved 1080 this morning and performed a couple of internal adjustments. I am now able to view both PAL & NTSC within a tolerance that's pretty darn close to each other (although not perfect). Still have to adjust the v.hold between switches, but the cropping is NOT as severe as before. Thanks for the info and giving me an excuse to get yet another Amiga project done!
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Take time to replace all caps, and it will live much more longer !
I still wonder why so many here don't repair their monitors ? :-o
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CLS2086 wrote:
Take time to replace all caps, and it will live much more longer !
I still wonder why so many here don't repair their monitors ? :-o
Me too.
A few years ago I even fixed my old 14" TV, it still works 15+ years :-)
(14" tv used in my bedroom, 32" in the living room ;-) )
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AmigaPixel wrote:
I never had a 1084 but I had 3 1080s and they lasted 20 years before they died. I doubt these new HDTVs or flat screen pc monitors will last that long.They built them to last back then. I know the 1080 was made in Japan, but were the 1084s made in japan too?
My 1084S was made in Korea. So far, it has been very solid. But I had another 1084 die on me not too long ago.
(Hey, I see you're in Tucson. I used to live there too -- that's the origin of the 5 digits in my username)
-Dave
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My 1084 was made in Taiwan and my 2 1080's were made in Japan. The funny thing about the 1080's is that they don't just die instantaneously. They slowly start to get a purple hue discoloration in the bottom right corner of the screen. Over time, it spreads until the screen gets too ugly to bear. I just donate them to Goodwill at that point.
Barney
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I don't recognise the aspect ratio problems of our American friends at all. Whenever I've used a 1084 or 8833, the screen has been filled both in 50 and 60 Hz modes. The monitor resyncs when you switch modes. Is this some 1080 specific problem or something specific to American 1084 monitors?
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barney wrote:
My 1084 was made in Taiwan and my 2 1080's were made in Japan. The funny thing about the 1080's is that they don't just die instantaneously. They slowly start to get a purple hue discoloration in the bottom right corner of the screen. Over time, it spreads until the screen gets too ugly to bear. I just donate them to Goodwill at that point.
Barney
That's funny one of mine started turn green, while the other more purple. :-)
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@orb85750
Hey how long ago did you live here? Did you ever attend the Amiga group meetings?
Scott
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I much prefer the 1080. Most of them seem to have better contrast and convergence than the 1084. And the 1084 looks kind of cheap, with that blue Commodore logo painted on. The 1080 has a proper logo that matches the A1000/500/2000.
I spent most of 1987 hoping that the 1084 was a temporary situation, but alas, it was not. I'm still waiting for my 2080. Two more weeks...
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The 1084 has multiple models and the cases look very different. I think the most common variety is the cheap-looking one to which you refer. My 1084S-D1 looks better, IMO, but it suffers from the same "can't keep the front door shut" syndrome. One of these days I'm going to fix it with a little velcro on the inside of the door.
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The 1084 has multiple models and the cases look very different. I think the most common variety is the cheap-looking one to which you refer. My 1084S-D1 looks better, IMO, but it suffers from the same "can't keep the front door shut" syndrome. One of these days I'm going to fix it with a little velcro on the inside of the door.
Very True. My 1084's don't have the ugly case. They both have the same case as the 1080.
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Thanks guys for this interesting and useful discussion..
I have searched in Google about this issue and it directed me here, and this post help me a lot in understanding what is the difference between 1080 and 1084.
So, thank you everybody.
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Oh yeah, it requires you to remove the back all right. Not a bad idea to use a large mirror as you're adjusting also. There are several convergence adjustments that need to be made on the yoke of a picture tube. They're ALL glued as to not be shaken loose, but as quality control has progressively blown chunks throughout the years (can you say unfair_trade_practice or 'sweatshop'?), I do not recommend just anyone try this though. Major shock risk if you've never attempted before and/or are a clumsy oaf. Here's some great info in layman's terms what we're talking about:
Linky to monitor FAQ's (http://www.zekfrivolous.com/faq/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtppc)
My first 1080 was one that was damaged when shipped to one of my friends VIA UPS and they ended up paying him for the damage but not collecting the monitor. He gave it to me and I was able to repair the main circuit board which was broken right in half. The convergence was way off (not sure if that was even related, like you said could have been factory because it was glued) but i managed get it perfect by pure trial and error, but at one point i thought i'd never get it correct. I was wearing rubber gloves because i was afraid i'd be electrocuted.... not sure if that is necessary.
before that i was using my A500 with a amber composite monitor. Terrible monitor for an amiga, except for interlace mode which had almost no flicker.
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At some point back when I wrote for a Commodore/Amiga user group, I had a list of makers for the 1804 that was way over a dozen long. It came from Commodore. That included the D and S models too.
I lost my archive of this newsletter. I have just put out feelers to see if any of our old members still this article with the list included.
I still have both 1080 and 1084S units that all work fine. I tend to prefer the 1080 though. They seem to have consistently better color over all modes.
I should add that the last batch of 1084 monitors did away with the composite connections, since all of the eight bit Commodore machines had been canceled ages back.
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I'd also say that the image might have appeared sharper on the 1084, almost as if the dot-pitch spec was higher, but not until you properly aligned her. I'll always have a penchant for the original 1080 though :-)
Actually its the opposite AFAIK. The Daewoo made 1084s (d1 , d2) have a Higher dot pitch than the previous versions..
It would be helpful if someone did a youtube vid on fixing common 1084 problems like flyback, solder joints, etc.. many people how are somewhat competent are afraid to work on these units to the voltages THAT CAN KILL YOU. (i'm not joking either)
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Hello, I was just wondering which of these Amiga monitors is higher quality: the Commodore 1080 or Commodore 1084. I know they have some obvious physical differences but which one in your opinion is sharper/clearer/higher quality/more solidly built? Thanks.
Barney
The 1084SD (or 1084D? one that looks like the 1080 not the square looking sharp edged one) was terrible and blurry due to anti-glare coating, the regular 1084 has various CRT tubes.
The 14 inch Sony Trinitron of the mid-late 80s in white with RGB scart cable is what smart people purchased ;)
(I owned both and had the Sony and 1084 running side by side and the difference was massive)
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I never had a 1084 but I had 3 1080s and they lasted 20 years before they died. I doubt these new HDTVs or flat screen pc monitors will last that long.They built them to last back then. I know the 1080 was made in Japan, but were the 1084s made in japan too?
I have some early 90s laptops and the TFT LCD screens are perfect on them still.
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I don't recognise the aspect ratio problems of our American friends at all. Whenever I've used a 1084 or 8833, the screen has been filled both in 50 and 60 Hz modes. The monitor resyncs when you switch modes. Is this some 1080 specific problem or something specific to American 1084 monitors?
My 14 inch Sony Trinitron from the 8833 era did the same, 60hz mode on ST or Megadrive stretched the screen so no border.
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My 14 inch Sony Trinitron from the 8833 era did the same, 60hz mode on ST or Megadrive stretched the screen so no border.
I've got both you guys beat I have a Sony 20" Professional RGB Video Monitor that does both PAL and NTSC even have an amiga rgb cable for it!
A couple of things really cool about 1080 is that the top of the case is flat so you can put something on top comfortably. Also as stated earlier having the Cool Amiga Logo is priceless!
One thing I love about the 1084 white monitors with commodore in blue is the front push button to select RGB/CVBS compared to lame D1 and D2 revs where you have to push the button in the back of the case!
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I have a 1084S-D2, any info on this one?
Thanks.
As Magnetic has written, 1084SD1/2 were made by Daewoo, not Samsung. My 1084SD admitted 73Hz of vertical refresh and still works perfectly after 21 years.