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AuthorTopic: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful  (Read 561 times)

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Offline Malakie

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Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« on: November 29, 2021, 01:38:50 AM »
Hi all,


I have run into an issue that I cannot get past.  Amiga 2000.  A2091 with latest roms.  512k chip, 2 meg fast,, 4 gb HD partitioned to 2 gb x 2,  68000 CPU, 3.2 Kickstart, 3.2 Workbench.


When I try to copy a batch of files, either via dos itself or using Dopus v4, I run into what I think is some kind of validation error.  For example, if I copy the entire 3.2 Workbench system from a backup drive to this new formatted HD with a 2 GB partition, it usually works to a point where then I get a few read errors off the master backup I am copying from (I have 3 known good backups so and none have errors because they work on my A1200 just fine).  I let the copy finish, after cancelling the read error requesters.  Because I know which files errored during the read/copy process, I then try to copy those files directly again from another disk just to insure I have clean copies of those specific files.  Except when it goes to copy, the machine ends up in a loop where the HD light just flickers all night long if I leave it..    If I try to delete those bad copied files first, I get the same problem.   I have tried Disksalv 4 and a few other tools, they don't find any errors, which is odd as hell but the drive I was copying to is now left with 0% free space, which means the bad file copied was bloated which is why the HD light remains flickering.

If I shut down and start the machine, the HD light then turns on solid and the machine does not boot at all, no matter whether I use a floppy or anything else. That drive, immediately on first access, goes to a solid SCSI HD light and stops cold there.


I have now tried 5 different SCSI HD's, 2 different SD2SCSI boards, 2 different A2091 cards, more memory.

There has to be something I am missing here because this makes absolutely no sense at all.  It's as if the machine is not validating anything when it is copying files.   I have tried using HD's on the same chain (terminated of course), one hd on a cable, a jaz drive external, and HD and a SD2SCSI  on the same change (terminated).. All I get are the exact same results no matter what I do.

I have tried setting all HDTools options to default for partition setup, tried making changes to those parameters.. you name it.. Nothing changes this issue from occurring.

Any ideas?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 01:39:58 AM by Malakie »
Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2021, 05:16:10 AM »
Yikes, this is a tough one. I don’t have a definitive answer, just some more questions or lines in inquiry to investigate. It sounds so much like a termination problem but you say you’ve accounted for that...

SCSI2SD configured correctly via attaching to PC USB?

Is the machine otherwise working? No latent battery damage? Power supply confirmed okay? Was the machine working before upgrading to 3.2? Tried a different SCSI ribbon cable?

How is your RAM configured, e.g., on which boards does your RAM live? 512K of Chip seems low - don’t most 2000s have 1MB onboard? Or do you have one of the old German motherboards? I’m guessing some RAM is on the 2091 so it’s probably worth running the 2091 RAM Test to make sure the chips are good.

Mask and MaxTransfer settings might also be worth looking at, but 3.2 supposedly doesn’t need those anymore...

Correct FFS version or other filesystem in the hard drive’s RDB?

I don’t have any direct experience with it, but a full system diagnostic with DiagROM could be worth trying. I wonder if it can be softkicked for easier use...
 

Offline nbache

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2021, 10:02:05 AM »
[...] the drive I was copying to is now left with 0% free space, which means the bad file copied was bloated which is why the HD light remains flickering.
No, in all likelyhood that's not the explanation. I assume you are using FFS as filesystem, not SFS/PFS or anything like that? In that case, you are probably seeing FFS' built-in diskvalidator trying to validate the volume after detecting some error in the disk data structures on bootup. What it does is it disables writing on the volume during the validation and sets the available space to 0.

Just wait and let it finish, which may take a long time (even hours, don't remember exactly). Then it will show the real free space and allow writing again - unless it fails to validate for some reason. In that case your only option will be to backup the data, reformat and copy back.

Best regards,

Niels
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2021, 11:56:19 AM »
What ROM have you fitted in the A2091? (Earlier ones have a partition size limit).

Are you setting a block size of 4096 bytes, rather than 512 bytes? You can get an issue with not enough RAM to validate a big partition.

Come to that, how big are your partitions?

EDI|T: Apologies, you did say ROM on the A2091 was latest. And they all use direct SCSI anyway.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 06:40:17 PM by Pat the Cat »
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2021, 06:47:31 PM »
What ROM have you fitted in the A2091? (Earlier ones have a partition size limit).

Are you setting a block size of 4096 bytes, rather than 512 bytes? You can get an issue with not enough RAM to validate a big partition.

Come to that, how big are your partitions?

EDI|T: Apologies, you did say ROM on the A2091 was latest. And they all use direct SCSI anyway.


7.0 roms, partitions are 500meg, 2gb and 1.5gb (of course they come out a little less once setup),. block size I have left at default.

Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2021, 06:50:06 PM »
[...] the drive I was copying to is now left with 0% free space, which means the bad file copied was bloated which is why the HD light remains flickering.
No, in all likelyhood that's not the explanation. I assume you are using FFS as filesystem, not SFS/PFS or anything like that? In that case, you are probably seeing FFS' built-in diskvalidator trying to validate the volume after detecting some error in the disk data structures on bootup. What it does is it disables writing on the volume during the validation and sets the available space to 0.

Just wait and let it finish, which may take a long time (even hours, don't remember exactly). Then it will show the real free space and allow writing again - unless it fails to validate for some reason. In that case your only option will be to backup the data, reformat and copy back.

Best regards,

Niels


As I mentioned, it gets stuck validating.. i.e. it gets stuck in a non stop loop and never stops.  I left it running over night at one point. 


I also mentioned, I have tried MULTIPLE drives and types of drives, formatted, low level formatted, partition changes... pretty much all of it.   I have clean installed from floppy (3.2), installed from CD and so forth.  It randomly picks a file during copy and suddenly decides it has a read error and that ends in a loop where it just sits there trying to validate/write the file.   
Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2021, 06:54:46 PM »
[...] the drive I was copying to is now left with 0% free space, which means the bad file copied was bloated which is why the HD light remains flickering.
No, in all likelyhood that's not the explanation. I assume you are using FFS as filesystem, not SFS/PFS or anything like that? In that case, you are probably seeing FFS' built-in diskvalidator trying to validate the volume after detecting some error in the disk data structures on bootup. What it does is it disables writing on the volume during the validation and sets the available space to 0.

Just wait and let it finish, which may take a long time (even hours, don't remember exactly). Then it will show the real free space and allow writing again - unless it fails to validate for some reason. In that case your only option will be to backup the data, reformat and copy back.

Best regards,

Niels

Good points, but while this is the normal way to handle validation issues there’s some sort of underlying problem going on in Malakie’s system that’s causing the disk errors and loss of validation in the first place.
 

Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2021, 06:56:02 PM »
Yikes, this is a tough one. I don’t have a definitive answer, just some more questions or lines in inquiry to investigate. It sounds so much like a termination problem but you say you’ve accounted for that...

SCSI2SD configured correctly via attaching to PC USB?

Is the machine otherwise working? No latent battery damage? Power supply confirmed okay? Was the machine working before upgrading to 3.2? Tried a different SCSI ribbon cable?

How is your RAM configured, e.g., on which boards does your RAM live? 512K of Chip seems low - don’t most 2000s have 1MB onboard? Or do you have one of the old German motherboards? I’m guessing some RAM is on the 2091 so it’s probably worth running the 2091 RAM Test to make sure the chips are good.

Mask and MaxTransfer settings might also be worth looking at, but 3.2 supposedly doesn’t need those anymore...

Correct FFS version or other filesystem in the hard drive’s RDB?

I don’t have any direct experience with it, but a full system diagnostic with DiagROM could be worth trying. I wonder if it can be softkicked for easier use...


4.1 motherboard, everything checks out, non ECS Agnus and Denise.  Basically a default stock A2000 with dual floppies.   Keep in mind this problem occurs not just with multiple drives but even with ONE drive, multiple partitions.   And the file size does not matter.  Sometimes it is just the disk.info file, other times it is a font file, and even other times it will choose and executable file.

I am using FFS but if I can't figure this out soon, I may have no choice but to try a 3rd party file system.  I wanted this machine solely stock across the board.   Stock A2000, dual drives, A2091 w a master and slave HD installed, CD-rom.   It had an A2090 st-506 card and drive.  I pulled that.. even I don't want to hassle with that old crap.


I was thinking it was the A2091 except I have 3 of them and they all do the same thing.  One has version 6 roms, one has the new v7 roms I grabbed and the 3rd actually has the very rare, v8 roms.  Two of them use the older -04 scsi chip, two use the latest -08 scsi chip.  Two have 2 meg ram populated, the first one is an old card that does not have extra ram.


Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2021, 07:00:40 PM »
Yikes, this is a tough one. I don’t have a definitive answer, just some more questions or lines in inquiry to investigate. It sounds so much like a termination problem but you say you’ve accounted for that...

SCSI2SD configured correctly via attaching to PC USB?

Is the machine otherwise working? No latent battery damage? Power supply confirmed okay? Was the machine working before upgrading to 3.2? Tried a different SCSI ribbon cable?

How is your RAM configured, e.g., on which boards does your RAM live? 512K of Chip seems low - don’t most 2000s have 1MB onboard? Or do you have one of the old German motherboards? I’m guessing some RAM is on the 2091 so it’s probably worth running the 2091 RAM Test to make sure the chips are good.

Mask and MaxTransfer settings might also be worth looking at, but 3.2 supposedly doesn’t need those anymore...

Correct FFS version or other filesystem in the hard drive’s RDB?

I don’t have any direct experience with it, but a full system diagnostic with DiagROM could be worth trying. I wonder if it can be softkicked for easier use...


The older 4.x boards have 512k chip memory, 1 meg fast ram.   Board is NTSC, basic agnus and denise chips.    Ram tests all show good as does board testing and power supply testing.


You did mention something though, that got me thinking.   Under 2.04, which is what I started with to test things, it worked fine.  Once I got all the hardware setup, I then wiped the drive and went to 3.2...  and thus the problems...

As for SD2SCSI, that works just fine.  I mentioned it as I have also tried that instead of a mechanical HD.  I use them in two other systems as well but those machines only have them, no additional drives connected.

BTW, I did not look but I think I also mentioned, this problem seems to happen LESS if I use an external drive like a JAZ and one internal drive vs two internal drives on the same cable.   And yes, both ends are terminated as they should be with two devices on the same cable.
Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2021, 09:16:14 PM »
Did you use 3.2’s HDToolbox to prep the drive? Not just to partition it, but to install the RDB from scratch? The other HDToolbox suggestion I have is to make sure the Direct SCSI option is enabled.

Do you have another SCSI ribbon cable you can try? An invisible defect in the cable seems like a real possibility if the problems are less frequent when one of the drives is external.

Have you configured SCSI2SD at all? There are a number of options that might be worth looking at.
 

Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2021, 10:32:40 PM »
Did you use 3.2’s HDToolbox to prep the drive? Not just to partition it, but to install the RDB from scratch? The other HDToolbox suggestion I have is to make sure the Direct SCSI option is enabled.

Do you have another SCSI ribbon cable you can try? An invisible defect in the cable seems like a real possibility if the problems are less frequent when one of the drives is external.

Have you configured SCSI2SD at all? There are a number of options that might be worth looking at.


All the above, yep.


BUT I think I may have figured out the issue.  It's the roms.  Whomever burned these two sets, screwed up.  They claim to be 7.0 roms but when I put in an official set, things work and the problem so far does not appear again.  I put these roms I bought in, and the problem shows up again.  Being I got them from a reputable place, I am thinking these are a bad write of the code or wrong code burned to these chips.


I am also reverting to 2048 block size because 4096 also causes too much headache in overhead with memory.



Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2021, 02:23:59 AM »
Wow. That is good news and I think anybody would have real problems working that one out!
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

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Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2021, 03:07:49 AM »
Wow. That is good news and I think anybody would have real problems working that one out!


Just so happens, I am a former Commodore Technical Engineer from back in the good days of Amiga.   While I am only now back in the scene after 35 years (went military again after my Commodore days), it is all coming back to me slowly as I rebuild a couple systems.  Most questions these days are for the 'new' gear and hardware that has been released by others in all that time.   Too bad someone did not have the means to really revamp the Amiga and release it again as a viable computer for the masses.  I know a couple companies tried but the problem was, they were way way too expensive to become a viable buy for most Amiga users.

If someone could just update the A1200 to fully support modern graphics and other peripherals while still maintaining backward compatibility for cards and software, AND be able to sell it for between $500 and $1000, I have no doubt it would become hot selling. 


I mean heck, imagine an Amiga running using a modern day nvidia video card or AMD video card and able to run PC software full blown using the same kind of technique you see with the Pi Rasberry stuff it can already use.  Just that thing allows Amiga to run Linux.  The missing part is the video hardware to be able to run modern stuff though.

Ahh well, not going to happen so in the meantime, will just upgrade to the max whatever I do have here! 



Take it light...... :-D

Malakie
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2021, 04:27:49 AM »
Echoing Pat. Wow, good diagnostic work. Hopefully it's just a wonky burn of the ROMs. One other (very unlikely) possibility, there have been a few hacks for the 2091 in recent years, some of which also require a modified set of ROMs - did you accidentally end up with modified v7 ROMs that don't match your unmodified 2091? @SpeedGeek is our resident 2091 expert and can probably help figure that out. I'll bet those v8 ROMs you mentioned would also be of interest. ;)

There have indeed been a ton of developments in Amigaland in recent years, particularly in the last 5 or so as FPGA technology has taken off. I've been engaged all this time and I still can't keep track of it all!
 

Offline Malakie

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Re: Stuck on a HD issue... any ideas would be helpful
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2021, 05:58:49 AM »
Echoing Pat. Wow, good diagnostic work. Hopefully it's just a wonky burn of the ROMs. One other (very unlikely) possibility, there have been a few hacks for the 2091 in recent years, some of which also require a modified set of ROMs - did you accidentally end up with modified v7 ROMs that don't match your unmodified 2091? @SpeedGeek is our resident 2091 expert and can probably help figure that out. I'll bet those v8 ROMs you mentioned would also be of interest. ;)

There have indeed been a ton of developments in Amigaland in recent years, particularly in the last 5 or so as FPGA technology has taken off. I've been engaged all this time and I still can't keep track of it all!


The cards are stock but I did replace the SCSI controller chip upgrading from the -04 to the -08.   The two sets of roms I bought from the same place exhibit the same errors on two different A2091 card versions so I think it is just a bad batch that was burned.  I will be getting replacements shortly from them.


The v8 roms are not having any issues at all so far.  This was two sets of v7.0 that I purchased that has the problem.  I am sending them back so they should be able to wipe and reburn them as well.


Now.. to find some extra ram chips for a couple A2058 cards....



Take it light...... :-D

Malakie