Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: on October 04, 2004, 12:02:16 AM
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Hi guys,
I have a question. Over the last few years, I've picked up several Amiga related domain names and simply held on to them since my original intent was to put them to good use for the Amiga community.
Right now, two of them, amigaos.info and amigade.info are coming up for renewal. Rather than simply paying the renewal for no real benefit, I've been wondering what exactly I could/should do with them.
With the pending release of AmigaOS 4 (date still unknown), I thought I would ask you guys for an opinion. If we were able to build a new site as a central repository of information for AmigaOS, what do you think should be posted there to differentiate it from the other sites out there? I know we should consider posting bugfixes, patches and the like, but what else?
Amiga.org has served the classic community well over the last ten years, but has seemingly become distracted from it's purpose. We could rebuild Amiga.org from the ground up, refocusing on the way things should be, or we can add on a new site to hold information and other stuff related to the pending AmigaOne platform. So, a bigger question is, which way should we go, or should we bother doing anything?
Wayne
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When did Amiga.org open up in 1994??? I only stumbled upon it a few years ago...
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Development of the original site began and permissions were secured from then-current (but only for about two more weeks as it turned out) Commodore personnel in mid-to-late 1994. We opened the doors on April 27th, 1995. Back then, PHP and most other languages either didn't exist, or were in their infancy. HTML itself was pre-1.0 and it was a really cool thing waiting with baited breath for HTML 1.0 to become standardized.
Internet Explorer didn't exist and even Netscape (such as it were) didn't even really have a foothold.
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Wayne,
I think the idea of having information repository relating to Amiga OS is a very good one. I belive other sites are out there that have similar goals in mind but never seem to take off. With Amiga.org's namesake and its collection of great amiga-minded folks you could build one heck of a knowledgebase. Any ideas as to how it would take shape?
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So, a bigger question is, which way should we go, or should we bother doing anything?
You have to go by your heart Wayne. If it's in your heart, go for it. Will it be appreciated? By a small percentage it would be extremely appreciated, possibly even fanatically so(and I don't mean that in a bad way in this instance). On a whole though it would probably be met with apathy, this thread is a good example what I mean.
Follow your heart, if you have a strong interest in the A1/OS4 go for it. But only do it for yourself at this point, if you do. Just my $0.02.
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amigaos.info and amigade.info are coming up for renewal
Drop them, they are using up valuble A.org resources :-D
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Wayne wrote:
So, a bigger question is, which way should we go, or should we bother doing anything?
Humpfff.. If it was my decision, I`d dump the unused domain names and look at putting the new ideas into a sub-site with it`s own identity. Maybe even sharing the login, so people could log into amiga.org, browse about etc, then head off to os4.amiga.org and do whatever over there with the same username & pm box etc.
As for Amiga.org, I love it the way it is..warts and all.
I know Wayne has made it no secret that he dislikes the coffee house forums, but I think they`re an invaluable part of the site, as it acts as a sandpit to keep all the religious& political rants out of the main Amiga forums, and gives space for everyone to get to know everyone a bit better.
I dunno, they just make the site feel alive, instead of a sterile "Amiga-holics" meeting place.
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I myself fall in the apathy-category redrum mentioned. I'm basically waiting for OS4 to be released for BlizPPC, then again I'm not sure I won't sell the bugger even beforehand if it takes much longer :-/.
So at this point I can't say I'm really that interested in OS4 specific sites, hopefully that will change in the near future (Real Soon Now).
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I vote to keep it all in one place. Keep classic and new Amiga on one site but have different forums, areas for specific info.
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Internet Explorer didn't exist and even Netscape (such as it were) didn't even really have a foothold.
Ah yes, the days of Mosaic.
By chance, are there any old screen shots of that old incarnation (the web site I mean, who cares about Mosaic? ;-) )?
- Mike
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Oh, as for what to do.... It's tough. The cost of renewing isn't that high, right? But then, will there ever be a time when you'll actually need them? Probably not. Even if interest soars with OS4, I think Amiga.org will serve the community well. Is there any reason why A.org couldn't fill the roles of those other domains?
- Mike
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Right now, two of them, amigaos.info and amigade.info are coming up for renewal. Rather than simply paying the renewal for no real benefit, I've been wondering what exactly I could/should do with them.
This is a bit OT but I never quite understood why Amiga Inc didn't use the address amiga.de (which they own and simply point to the .com) for the AmigaDE site. It would have made sense in my world, at least until they renamed it to AmigaAnywhere.
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Ah, the good old days of NCSA Mosaic (http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/Mosaic/NCSAMosaicHome.html).
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Check this out (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.amiga.org/) :-D
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@ fragment
WOW, thanks for that :-o
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@fragment
Good show!
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Amiga.org is good like it is now, i.e. the best retro/classic Amiga forum. But you should do what is the best in your heart.
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I must agree with odin.
It has been 4 month now with total silence from hyperion and eyetech is not better. The only one we get new "things" from is Elbox and that is mostly new drivers to existing hardware.
I would like to know when the new OS 4 is coming and if there is developers out there that makes games / programs to this new OS 4?
I don't know if I'm going to sell my Amiga, but that is mostly because I do not even get a tenth of what I have purchased all the stuff to my amiga for.
Some positive messages from anyone is very much appreciated.
/Jörgen Jönsson
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It looks like A1 and OS4 are dead, even before they
were born! I don't think there's gonna be a big
AmigaOne-OS4 revival. And why is it that the A1 has
no case around it?! Only a MoBo...without a case?!
Very weird! They should make a nice recognisable
Amiga case with a complete Amiga system in it,
that sells better then only a MoBo...
EDIT:)
I think the whole A1/OS4 project is bleeding to dead.
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bOiNgHeAd wrote:
It looks like A1 and OS4 are dead, even before they
where born! I don't think there's gonna be a big
AmigaOne-OS4 revival. And why is it that the A1 has
no case around it?! Only a MoBo...without a case?!
Very weird! They should make a nice recogniseable
Amiga case with a complete Amiga system in it,
that sells better then only a MoBo...
For the Price, I would want a complete system! (yes with a recognisable case)
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@jonssonj
There have been no official updates regarding OS4 but Hyperion still have made a lot of comments and answered lot of peoples questions. Almost everything apart from a release date :)
I understand why they can't come up with a definate release date and I feel that them answering the questions we might have is better than a status update once a month or so.
Anyway most news have come from shows and since you're located in Malmø you have had the chance for visiting both AmiGBG and the prerelease party in Landskrona (Ok, thats some time ago now), dunno if you where there but there is actually quite a lot of active Amigans in Sweden.
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@ Wayne
I dont see much interest in AmigaDE so a website regarding that does not seem relevant atm.
Regarding OS4 I think that is fully covered, with OS4depot, Intuitionbase and AW.net. I can't really think of a reason to go and compete with them.
My advice would be to continue Amiga.org and concentrate on that, it's the site that cares most for classic users and a lot of people likes that.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20000815084541/forums.amiga.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
:-)
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Wayne wrote:
Hi guys,
Hi Wayne,
I have a question. Over the last few years, I've picked up several Amiga related domain names and simply held on to them since my original intent was to put them to good use for the Amiga community.
Right now, two of them, amigaos.info and amigade.info are coming up for renewal. Rather than simply paying the renewal for no real benefit, I've been wondering what exactly I could/should do with them.
With the pending release of AmigaOS 4 (date still unknown), I thought I would ask you guys for an opinion. If we were able to build a new site as a central repository of information for AmigaOS, what do you think should be posted there to differentiate it from the other sites out there? I know we should consider posting bugfixes, patches and the like, but what else?
Interesting question. Well, you asked us for opionion, so..
I like Amiga.org's role in the community. It is a place where returning users, occasional users, newcomers as well as veteran amigans can ask hardware questions, discuss software, talk to other users about their experiences with different setups, upgrading etc.
It's easy to forget how much more is possible with the internet as a resource. In being such an informative site [by virtue of all the experience available to draw on, and past threads], it can only benefit the 'cause' of the Amiga, so to speak. People thinking of buying one can get great advice, including places to buy. In fact, people often buy from others in the forum, yet another example of the site's worth.
However, notice how I talk of Amiga.org serving its purpose so effectively to the classic Amiga. From my point of view, this is all I am really interested in at present. But also,
in most cases, when threads become less than civil, shall we say, it is because of matters relating to the Pegasos or A1.
Amiga.org has served the classic community well over the last ten years, but has seemingly become distracted from it's purpose.
Please explain what you mean?
If it is perhaps the Coffee House aspect that plays a part, then its an interesting point. I notice Doobrey has mantioned that, so I'll talk about that in my reply to him.
We could rebuild Amiga.org from the ground up, refocusing on the way things should be, or we can add on a new site to hold information and other stuff related to the pending AmigaOne platform. So, a bigger question is, which way should we go, or should we bother doing anything?
Wayne
From a purely Amiga perspective, I like the forums in the 'General Discussion' section, and think they are of great value.
As I have already indicated, I believe Amiga.org's greatest value is in serving the classic amiga. Now, this may be a contentious issue to some, but it is only my opinion :-)
...I think Amiga.org would be a great site if its focus was on the classic amiga. As it stands, most of the discussion that goes on in the HW and SW forums is already about this, and this is the most invaluable part of the site. AW.net and others serve the A1 community, and there is morphzone and others for the Pegasos, so perhaps making AO exclusively classic Amiga would be an option?
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@ Doobrey
Doobrey wrote:
Humpfff.. If it was my decision, I`d dump the unused domain names and look at putting the new ideas into a sub-site with it`s own identity. Maybe even sharing the login, so people could log into amiga.org, browse about etc, then head off to os4.amiga.org and do whatever over there with the same username & pm box etc.
Hmm, not a bad idea..
As for Amiga.org, I love it the way it is..warts and all.
Yep!
I know Wayne has made it no secret that he dislikes the coffee house forums, but I think they`re an invaluable part of the site, as it acts as a sandpit to keep all the religious& political rants out of the main Amiga forums
They are an invaluable part of the site, but I'm not sure if there would be religious and political rants in HW forums, for example, if they didn't exist :lol:
and gives space for everyone to get to know everyone a bit better.
I dunno, they just make the site feel alive, instead of a sterile "Amiga-holics" meeting place.
:lol:
My thoughts exactly. I think I said much the same thing a few months back. It would be duller without them, for sure.
I've 'met' some great people from all over the world :-)
Its just a shame the two political 'sides' seem to dominate the CH. I wish there was more humour, more discussion of music and film, life, love and literatrure :-)
Essentially, I wish it was a little more diverse.
[Note to self - post threads about more diverse subjects]
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Thanks for expressing your opinion. Most of my problem with the way things are is that the classic Amiga is fading, and the community has been taken over by a group of people whose attitudes and agendas are in direct opposition to the way the Amiga community used to be.. It feels less about the Amiga than a war room for sycophants and discussion of sexual/political preferences. That I find disturbing.
perhaps making AO exclusively classic Amiga would be an option?
Eventually one of two things will happen.
1) If the A1/OS4 is successful, Amiga.org would eventually begin to transform itself as people moved from the old to the new.
2) If the A1/OS4 fails, the classic Amiga will eventually fade into vague memory, remembered only as a blip on the evolutionary scale of desktop computing...
I have a lot of fun memories of the Classic Amiga. In fact, my life has pretty much been influenced by it, from stupid career choices to the friends I've made along the way, but looking at the situation realistically, without fresh blood by way of dealers (who are honest and receive our enthusiastic support), and software development, it's just a matter of time.
(sorry to sound morbid, but my life seems linked to the Amiga here in that the more this situation declines, the worse my life seems to get).
Wayne
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Its just a shame the two political 'sides' seem to dominate the CH. I wish there was more humour, more discussion of music and film, life, love and literatrure Essentially, I wish it was a little more diverse. [Note to self - post threads about more diverse subjects]
Yup, It's what you make it. Maybe you'll encourage others.
The CH environment here isn't unique. I frequent a site, The Armour Archive, for my other hobby. It's a discussion forum for medieval living history reenactors. Their is an off-topics forum there, but not as structured as here. Probably due to it being, well, about anyting but medieval history. It is also full of mostly political topics. Right, Left, Democrat, Republican are the main views. Oddly the members are quite civil given the exstreme views and agruments sometime posted. I think it has to do with the main focus of the site. Just last month the admins created a special off-topics political forum just for this fall, as with the up coming US elections there were just too many political topics in the off-topic forum.
So, by all means give us feedback. Also, you are not powerless. Post the type of topic you would like to see.
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Wayne wrote:
Thanks for expressing your opinion. Most of my problem with the way things are is that the classic Amiga is fading, and the community has been taken over by a group of people whose attitudes and agendas are in direct opposition to the way the Amiga community used to be.. It feels less about the Amiga than a war room for sycophants and discussion of sexual/political preferences. That I find disturbing.
perhaps making AO exclusively classic Amiga would be an option?
Eventually one of two things will happen.
1) If the A1/OS4 is successful, Amiga.org would eventually begin to transform itself as people moved from the old to the new.
2) If the A1/OS4 fails, the classic Amiga will eventually fade into vague memory, remembered only as a blip on the evolutionary scale of desktop computing...
I have a lot of fun memories of the Classic Amiga. In fact, my life has pretty much been influenced by it, from stupid career choices to the friends I've made along the way, but looking at the situation realistically, without fresh blood by way of dealers (who are honest and receive our enthusiastic support), and software development, it's just a matter of time.
(sorry to sound morbid, but my life seems linked to the Amiga here in that the more this situation declines, the worse my life seems to get).
Wayne
Personally I think 2 is the only realistic out come for Amiga as a desktop platform... the A1/OS4 is too little too late... The Classic Amigas are slowly dying one by one... and scammers are sucking what little confidence is left.
We have two options...
1. Say fair enough, it's been fun... lets get a real hobby and say good bye.
2. Stay together as a community and get involved in community projects to keep our little vision of the computing world alive... if nothing more than as a reminder to those in the future of how things were, and how they could have been. For me the Modern PC with it's GPUs (for graphics), DSPs (for sound), high performance CPUs and cheap, easy expansion abilites embody all which the original Amiga designers wanted from computer hardware all that hardware needs is an OS which continues the Amiga tradition.
You see, it's the community that is all that's left... the Holly Wars and politics have actually probably held the community together better than getting an AmigaONE out in 2000...
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Cyberus wrote:
Its just a shame the two political 'sides' seem to dominate the CH. I wish there was more humour, more discussion of music and film, life, love and literatrure :-)
Essentially, I wish it was a little more diverse.
[Note to self - post threads about more diverse subjects]
yeah, I know, Cyberus. But I think ppl here on Aorg are way too different (but politics concerns us all). I posted sometimes about movies or music in the entertainment ch (*sigh* I need to read more) but hardly anyone seemed to be interested (except from the political side of these things :-()
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bloodline wrote:
1. Say fair enough, it's been fun... lets get a real hobby and say good bye.
Never.
2. Stay together as a community and get involved in community projects to keep our little vision of the computing world alive... if nothing more than as a reminder to those in the future of how things were, and how they could have been. For me the Modern PC with it's GPUs (for graphics), DSPs (for sound), high performance CPUs and cheap, easy expansion abilites embody all which the original Amiga designers wanted from computer hardware all that hardware needs is an OS which continues the Amiga tradition.
[/quote]no it does not. Where the Amiga was a new and revolutionary idea, these computers stick with that 10-20yo idea. Plus it sticks with a notoriously old and bad technique, and expands it. Every software/hardware designer knows it's stupid to expand original designs, and if you want more you need to re-design stuff completely if you want to do it properly.
The pc is and a cripple machine, no matter how much they expand it, and it costs a lot of time for me if someone I know has bought a new computer and wants things installed on it or so.
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With respect, this has exactly what to do with the topic of building a new Amiga-specific site?
@JJ
I do not intend to offend anyone by the deletion of your message(s). I simply need to make a point about staying on topic. This thread is wandering off on it's own and I just need to get it back to being productive. Otherwise, we should just scrap all forums and just start one big "talk about whatever the hell you feel like" forum, but that would make us another Moobunny.
@everyone,
This site is about the Amiga. Let's stay on topic please.
Wayne
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Wayne wrote:
... and the community has been taken over by a group of people whose attitudes and agendas are in direct opposition to the way the Amiga community used to be.. It feels less about the Amiga than a war room for sycophants and discussion of sexual/political preferences.
The fact of the matter is that its only a minority of people who constantly argue, troll, {bleep} and moan. The majority of people use Amigas old and new, or clones, because they enjoy it and its a nice hobby. When you get a group of Amiga fans together for a show or other real life face-to-face meetings, the community of old is still present; people get along fine and have a beer. Morphoseans, AROSeans and Amigans all get along fine face to face, on the whole.
I think the cold nature of textual communication, combined with people who actually just like stirring up arguments have damaged the appearance of the Amiga community to anyone whos only contact with it is via the internet, and that is what I think is really sad.
I honestly think if the internet was expensive and geeky like in the old days, we'd have a healthier usergroup scene and you'd feel a whole lot better about the state of the "community", i'm sure. The internet is a double edged sword in this instance.
What can we do about it? *sigh* Thats the $64,000 question alright... But I think things will get better. Either:
1) One, two or all of OS4, AROS or MorphOS will become moderately successful and bring in an infusion of new blood, and a new community will form as the ratio of idiots to normal people on Amiga forums gets better.
2) All the Amiga companies die. This would be horrible from my POV, as I would really like to see the Amiga continue commercially in some form, and speaking personally, I *really* like OS4. But even if this happened, the arguments would die down, and we'd probably become like the C64 online community; one that is friendly, and content with the fact that their favourite computers chance has come and gone.
Either way, it CAN only get better...
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xeron,
I know that people get along in real life, otherwise, we'd refer to the AmiWest shows as "blood bowls". I also know that it's only a few rotten apples which are spoiling the fun, but short of becoming strongarmed and banning those particular smegheads en masse, there is no real solution...
- Banning them creates discontent, besides, who draws the line, and where is it drawn?
- Deleting the Politics forum solves most of the problem, but also runs off a large portion of the site's visitors, which -- in all frankness, makes it impossible for the site to survive (financially).
- Trying to put some type of leash on the political forums ends up with the typical crybabies screaming "censorship" (like they have a single clue what real censorship is).
- turning a blind eye and letting people say and do whatever the heck they want only makes things worse.
So where's the solution.
Wayne
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Has anyonr actually ever tred to have a special Flame fest forum? Maybe one where you have to specially register in order to enter... in there one can troll away to your hearts content?
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What would be the point? We had the DMZ, now we have Coffee House forums. Pretty much the same results. A few kids insulting everyone and running off the more intelligent posters.
Wayne
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- Banning them creates discontent, besides, who draws the line, and where is it drawn?
You do, doen't matter if we like it or not. Honestly, if anybody doen't like your site they wouldn't come if they kept finding themselves deleted or banned (Except 1 certain person).
As for the domains.. I honestly don't know why you would want to spent even more time in another forum site, and just a plain info site wouldn't be much fun. And we've got plenty of files serving sites as wel, so I don't think that's the way to go either.
Sorry, no help from me I'm afraid to make a decision.
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seer wrote:
- Banning them creates discontent, besides, who draws the line, and where is it drawn?
You do, doen't matter if we like it or not. Honestly, if anybody doen't like your site they wouldn't come if they kept finding themselves deleted or banned (Except 1 certain person).
Thanks! That's what I had thought, but every time I have to take an action, I'm compared to the anti-christ...
:-)
In the end, all I want is for people to come here and be able to enjoy each other's company (in text form anyway) while providing a service to the Amiga community. Lately -- due to the aforementioned malcontents -- I've felt like the majority of the discussions here are being railroaded by a few rabid people who refuse to accept that theirs is not the only possible correct opinion in the world.
Apparently I'm not alone I've gotten PM's from four different former regulars this morning (people whom I miss posting) alone who said essentially;
"Long time, no write. Hope you remember me. I used to love the site and come here all the time, but because of some of the kiddie idiots I eventually felt like I was no longer welcome and went somewhere else. In regards to the new site thread, I sincerely wish you luck."
edit : Most of them mentioned how much nicer visitors used to be to one another, even a few years ago...
Sorry, no help from me I'm afraid to make a decision.
Open communication always helps.
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This site is great. It offers a wealth of information about Amiga in general, however, I have noticed quite a few users with 1000+ posts which have (most likely) never posted an Amiga related post. :-)
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Thanks! That's what I had thought, but every time I have to take an action, I'm compared to the anti-christ...
You're welcome. I kinda like the moderation here (and on aw.net)
Apparently I'm not alone I've gotten PM's from four different former regulars this morning (people whom I miss posting) alone who said essentially;
Like I said, if certain people spoil it for others it's your decision on what to do (and in part your staff).
Open communication always helps.
Another good reason for this site.
:-)
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Throw the domains away, don't waste your money.
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Wayne.
Follow your heart.
Build it and they will come !!
Best Wishes
Paul.
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If you allow people to discuss politics/religion etc., you'll get arguments. That's the nature of the beast. There's no easy way of moderating opinion, because what seems to one person like a valid comment might seem like rabid trolling to another.
The coffee house / DMZ solution is probably the only sensible approach, although it could make a lot of sense to increase the differentiation between that and the rest of the site. I know that's something that a.org has always tried to do, but if it's still a problem then make the differentiation stricter.
I believe that the best approach to moderation is to make it very clear to everyone that you will be extremely strict. Explain that you will terrorise them, rule them with an iron rod, and crush any dissent. Then go easy on them. If people expect strict moderation, they're generally less likely to be shocked when it happens to them, and when they find out that you're letting them get away with just a little bit more than they thought -- why then suddenly you're the good guy rather than the bad guy. ;-) Of course to make this work it would probably be necessary to use a system of permissions that makes posting rights for the DMZ and the rest of the board entirely separate, so that people get the clear sense that there are two separate strands of moderation going on. It should be relatively easy for a troll to get banned from the "main" boards if they start annoying people, but considerably harder to get banned from the DMZ, where annoying at least some people is pretty much bound to happen whether you're trolling or not.
I'd say go with the alternative sites simply because it gives you a way of starting fresh, but there's no reason for a totally clean start - the URLs could point to a.org subsites so that people specifically interested in that subsite can hop straight there via the URL and others can wander in for a look from the main page if they wish.
Part of the problem with all the Amiga sites is that people tend to behave according to what they perceive as being the social norm in the environment they find themselves. Over the years the online Amiga community has become rather twisted and self-loathing, and it's hard to enforce a change to better behaviour. I think it would make a lot of sense to build a new site slowly - don't invest too much into it until you know it's going to work - and keep it in "closed beta" for a while, inviting a small number of trusted people at a time to join in. Hopefully that way, by the time it's ready to go live, you'll have already built up a community with a more friendly and constructive pre-existing social norm that will make it less likely people will drop into the same hyper-dogmatic & trollish modes that are all too common 'round this neighbourhood these days.
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@Wayne,
I don't post frequently, but when I do it's usually just techie talk. I'm a relative newcomer here and I stay out of the Coffee house forums because I just don't have that kind of time nor do I see the point. I would say a new site for Amiga is a bit premature based on what I've seen. Until something happens the most you could hope to do is plan something in your head. I agree with some other posts about following your heart/passion and just keep it in the back of your head. I was out of the Amiga community for 15 years so I haven't the background to talk heavily about all of this, but it would seem that it's at a make or break point. I'd wait to see what happens before investing a lot of work in a new site. Perhaps renewing them for one more year and deciding if nothing is there by then, letting them go.
Just random thoughts, I hope you find them useful.