Amiga in Your very cellphone

[DiskDoctor]

Hi, all

I just tried to install PocketUAE on my HTC S710 WM6 Smart device and it failed.  Seems to be for older platforms and abandoned project.

On the other hand, I see many Amiga games ported and SOLD heavily on various cell platforms (e.g. Lemmings on Nokia S40 or Symbian s60v3).  Mobile entertainment makers rely on arcade games because it seamlessly fits into mobile capabilities / feel.  The point is that they lack ideas really, I saw already fancy Bobberman (from NES), also Arkanoid (rich graphics though).

I think it is really stupid to simply let go - without Amiga Emulator on a cellphone.

I encountered two projects yet, the said PocketUAE not working on recent WM phones, also MyUAE for PalmOS (didn't test it, my Palm is dead for years...)

Let's face it.  Mobile smartphones' penetration gets bigger, thank to subsides, mobile people are spending significant $$$$ on gaming (17B$ in 2006 - consider this!).  I think ANY Amiga / xxUAE / mobile software developer should consider making Amiga emulation for cellphones.  Maybe it would boost it if it was a proprietary software, (mobile people, not necessarily Amiga people would spend a lot on it), eventually donationware.

Mobile smart platforms nowadays:
- Symbian (S60/UIQ): strong enough on a smartphone market (??q)
- Windows Mobile: strong and rapidly growing (10M in 2006)
- iPhone (OSX): significant and growing (6M in 2006)
- BlackBerry OS: high-end in Europe, small share outside US
- PalmOS: dying if not dead already
- others: Linuxes (JUIX, Android etc.) or J2ME: ain't worth it

*EDIT - this is rather of 2007 year statistics - sorry for that

So I think anyone trying to make Amiga emulator for any of the three toppest systems would 1) earn a lot of money (hopefully) 2) make something of high-vallue-added and lots of fun for the community...

OK, I know, I know.  What can I do about it, right?
Well, I am a programmer, too, having some time, but never been developing on mobile.  Doing it from a scratch would cost me lots of time.  Should somebody help...

Comments anybody?

BTW - consider this if You do not like this proprietary thing idea: buy once, play 1000 games free!!!  This is really justified for me.

*EDIT - Also, Amiga emulation on cellphones would SURELY make an Amiga platform alone more recognizable... and more popular!!!!

[DiskDoctor]

gurthuk wrote:
what's a cellphone?

Is this a joke or what?

As far as I know cellular phone and mobile phone names differ in UK English and US English actually.

So, what's the point?  Fun?

[DiskDoctor]

gurthuk wrote:
on a serious note why bother - would it not be simpler to developer applications for the native OS?

What d'you mean by native OSes and applications?  DIstinct games ported to any mobile platform?  This is done now, I meant creating emulation software.  So that one wouldn't bother anymore to run another Amiga game.  Once done, all classic Amiga gaming would be freed.

Tension wrote:
What`s an amoeba anyway?

This is really a good one!

Pyromania wrote:
Nice post except for the Windows Mobile part. Win Mobile is almost already dead and it would be a waste to put any resources there. Amiga Forever could have features added to the next version to support Amiga emulation on cell phones if it's developer is interested in going that route.

You're kidding me?? Take a look at 2007/2008 and such vedors: HTC, Samsung (i600, i780 and more), SE (X1), Motorola (Q9h), also Toshiba, ASUS, tons of stuff.  Even the bloody Palm started releasing most of its hardware equipped with windows...

I think in two years maybe WinMobile will have majority of smartphone market share.  So it's really worth it.

On the other hand Symbian is as much important, don't think anything will change in a few years...

I really hope the AmigaForever guys will sniff some $$ out eventually here.

Exactly; there is LiMo (LInux MObile), Android and the recent PALM's WebOS that are diferent flavours of Linux for mobiles devices so it would not be so difficult port linux EUAE for them.Another matter is optimization and use of the extra cellphone features, but, step by
step

This is most probably the closest way to achieve as you said, Linux is most flexible to port UAE on Linux-like mobile OSes.

EDIT*

And it will fly on the new ARM 1 GHZ based cellphones

Say, my mobile almost outperforms the Sam...

[DiskDoctor]

@ persia

Why do all of you hate Windows Mobile platform huh?

I mean... I also used to dislike this.  My wife had this HTC with qwerty keyboard for over a year but recently I simply stole it and gave her my Nokia E65.

I know WM is really dull compared for Symbian feel / performance / support.
But hey, those cells start ruling the world!!  With Microsoft support, also targeted for business (Exchange/ActiveSyns/DirectPush technology), it's getting closer to the consumer.  Also, after iPhone launch, all of a sudden, ALL mobile players started making clones of it! HTC has a new WM Touch line, roughly positioned close to iPhone audience and it works; last year in my country I saw ads of HTC Touch as a phone for women(!).

One more thing - in last two years ALL the other mobile vendors started to support WM - Samsung (i600), LG (KS20), Motorola (Q9h), SE (X1) - expect lot more this year.  So that would be my choice.  It's not about preference, it's about platform's potential.

So yes, win mobile is dull but at least - it is more stable and growing.  Consider also one thing. Windows Mobile Professional edition has a touch UI design.  So all (most) touch cell phones with OSes now are WM Pros, plus iPhone, maybe one Nokia more.  This is crucial while attempt to emulate mouse - gets closer to the desktop as Palm/iPaq palmtops were those days...

Why no one mentions Symbian for a change?  iPhone share gets still, there are two Google phones to date (one made in Australia) , this is really little... Other Linuxes... I know Motorola has a few Linux/JUIX phones (like Z8) but... I cannot imagine Amiga on it.

@ bloodline

Apple did "release" their iPhone OSX system some months after launch so yes, it is now FULLY open for developers.  So you could make anything to work on iPhone, Apple Inc. wouldn't mind really.

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$...

[DiskDoctor]

bloodline wrote:

WinMobile is a horrible and dated OS... M$ have a dinosaur with it... it's not as nice as either Symbian or OSX... I have yet to use Linux (aka android etc) on a mobile platform

I DO agree it's dull and targeted to elderly mid-level managers but, as I was saying...  It is a matter of a market share, for a start.  If it succeeds, you will notice mobileUAE on all the platforms, all of a sudden...

WinMobile Shmobile... but if it (UAE) works...  One guy here (did you?) mentioned Pocket UAE was cool on old Pocket PC.  So what's the story?  Hatred to Bill??

You are quite right, I can develop anything I like. I have the iPhone SDK here. But I can only distribute my Apps to other iPhone (and iPod touch) users via Apple. I can give my app to 100 other people, as per my SDK licence, and as long as I can have physical access to their phone/ipod...

Apple will not publish an App that violates their Terms and conditions. And right now their terms and condition do NOT allow Emualtors.

This sucks then, but... what makes an emulator an emulator???  If you sell iUAE BUNDELED and bound with specific game blah blah blah... it is not an emulator anymore!! Like this iPhone Pinball Dreams mentioned here... And Apple lawyers could then go and funk theirselves!

Native ports... how many?  And sum all the figure$...

There are over 20000 Apps avaiable for the iPhone/Ipod touch, right now... I can't count them all...

True but what I meant was the amount of $$ that has (will/would) to be spent to have a 50-games Amiga collection "for the native os" - 500$??

[DiskDoctor]

bloodline wrote:

It has nothing to do with Being dull... it's old, it uses old paradigms, old APIs... imagine running Win3.11 on your latest PC... That's what WinMobile is like, when compared with modern Mobile OSs... like OSX for example

This is actually 99% true, I do not claim Windows Mobile is a good technology (it used to be 8 years ago), all I say is IT/mUAE WOULD WORK fine! Check out recent WM games!  They're cool and 3D as well.  Or maybe... I'm such an IT ignorant I cannot comprehend the difference between native/API-using software and a virtual machine which any emulator in fact is... My apologies if this is the case, always learning something... especially here.

 Yes, I used to run PocketUAE on my old iPAQ 4150... so what? Amiga software isn't suited to the mobile platform, they prefer joysticks, mice and keyboards... not touch screens... Amiga software is not meant to be used in a mobile environment and really needs reworking to get the best out of it... you can search the photo archive on this site to see photos of my running PocketUAE, games and the OS.

Then how can you explain sales of mobile arcade games' figures???
Don't give up on mobile!!  It will, too, eventually get you.

Amiga software, via UAE/etc... is not going to be popular on any mobile platform FULL STOP... Also I like my mobile games to be 3D now... it's just more fun on my iPhone.

Amiga software IS popular on mobile. Or at least is significantly present there.

Read the SDK licence, you basically can't interpret code via any other method than using the APIs and Frameworks provided by Apple... and until Apple provide a 68k emu framework with OSX... that puts UAE out...

You say... I say... how about making a complier (www site/service) that combines m-UAE, any Amiga classic / adf game, yielding mobile OS proper API-compliant binary??  How's that hack?  Native binary, man, Apple lawyers would have to shove this very license of theirs  up their you-know-where.

*

As for the proper (non-emulated) Amiga games' direct porting...  This is effort anyway, this month or so you're mentioning.  Doing it once - fine.  Do it every time... no one would!  I'm telling you... There are, really, some 10-15 mobile Amiga games already.  I want a 100.

LoadWB wrote:

You kidding me? Windows Mobile is all over the business world. There are multiple vendors supporting it and, in my experience, there is nothing yet that compares in business functionality -- Exchange ActiveSync, Pocket Office applications, and a familiar interface for the technically unadaptable.

That's my man!  But seriously: (1) I am far from adoring WM (2) I cannot deny facts or figures about its market presence (3) I really bet on it as a highest growth/share next 3 years.

A good game does not rely solely on its graphics abilities, but on the timelessness, ingenuity, and playability of the game.

That's right. UI/graphics is just a matter of implementation, compliant or not.  

bloodline wrote then:

I said nothing about the quality of gfx provided Amiga games! Reread my post! The input method of Amiga games needs to be reworked for mobile platforms, which are predominantly touch screen!

I had Lemmings on my N 6230i s40 device reworked as using joypad instead of mouse...  Seriously, most (90%) Amiga/arcade games used digi joystick - almost all cellphones, not necessarily smart ones have one already.

So doesn't seem a problem to me.  If throng of people can have fun on playing mobile games, they would have even more fun playing those of Amiga.

[DiskDoctor]

WM sucks thoroughly compared for iPhone, also Symbian, Android maybe.

But we're off the topic now --> I can talk but let us shift to the other forum since it is about emulation

My summary on UAE mobile again:

- Windows Mobile: targeted for business mainly, big figures sold, high growth, lots of devices and vendors already, reliable and stable system, current games are great, despite of the whole system mUAE would work fast and smooth
- iPhone OSX: best gaming performance (ever!), significant market share (3rd not counting BB), but legal issues
- Linux (what's a LiMO anyway?): good idea, several handhelds but yet too few, future uncertain (remember Linux), UAE seamless portability
- Symbian: main WM rival, nice devices (mainly Nokia, some SE, a few Motorola and Samsung), great UI / performance (worse than iPhone, though), great gaming / dev capabilities, my 2nd favorite
- BlackBerry: not a mortal man uses it, except for the US
- PalmOS: dead and PalmWEB changed flags to Linux
- J2ME: no controll over device UI, low-end etc...

I really hope (and would donate such project or do some myself) this whole mUAE idea works.

Remember: This may be a GREAT CHANCE FOR AMIGA TO APPEAR ALL OVER AGAIN!
Tomorrow. On a mobile near you.

*EDIT Would someone PLEASE help me on these smilies/saddies?? I don't get it how to place them.

[DiskDoctor]

@ warpdesign

I meant recent OS.

Amiga emulation, easily available to anyone of the millions of mobile gamers, would attract the people towards different OS which is AOS4.

I know, I'm evangelizing newer platform here but what I think is... I want my phone to play classic Amiga games, and I want my next desktop to be OS4.  That way out.

One more - think of Amiga Emulation as a mobile virus that spreads the idea all over...

Are you personal about this McEwen stuff??  Maybe yes, I use too much exclamation, capitals or so... I promise to stop.  AInc does nothing for years as far as I know, I just wanted to propose something, right?  So that someone makes some money out it, some of Amiga people have fun, other people get attracted...  Is it a sin?  Or am I a cynic?  What are you on about? Please explain instead of denying.  I HATE denial!

@ bloodline

PocketUAE... WinMobile was NEVER so popular as it is now... Back in 2004... Only hobbyists (IT people, management) had palmtops, majority of the market was rather industrial but time has changed! WMs are now both common and reachable. What else for a base?

Man, don't tell me those things of Amiga demise anymore...  I do believe some freaky Amiga-grown Entrepreneur will buy a McEwen a decent BMV, get the brand and resurrect it - just for fun.  You really never know, history tells it...  Like Java 25 years ago... "unsuccessful project of system for fridges"...

Please do not thrash my weekend!! :-)

[DiskDoctor]

bloodline wrote:

A few years ago only geeks had Mobile devices... Geeks are prepared to mess around with Emulators... Now the common person has mobile devices... common People don't want emulators, don't care about some old game they never played before, that  they won't have.. You can't sell Amiga games or Amiga ROMs...

The market for UAE on mobile devices is smaller now than it was years ago.

No way! If you market stuff properly, mobile people would buy it without giving it a think. I can see how many mobile crap games are being sold in this very second! I see everywhere on a TV five-second ads about Premium texting for 5$ to get a silly James Bond recent game. People drink a beer or two and... have fun or excitement for 5$... no matter all they get is a crap... what matters is the futuristic way they got it...

I really worked for two years in mobile industry and know how many pieces of particular mobile software sold daily needs to yield positive ROI... People WASTE money on mobile, because mobile operators told them VAS is what they want and they did it well.

mUAE if proprietary hopefully, will have guts to get through the whole marketing machine and eventually reach figures.  I see no much distinction between mUAE and any other mobile arcades, I thought it was already said here clearly enough...

Amiga as a brand is dead, it is worthless. No one will pay what McEwen wants for it.

I don't. But if the guy lets it go, who knows who will eventually pick it next...  We're getting older :-) and richer :-) :-) If I had 10M$ now I would spend all on this Amiga reanimation, believe me.  On the other hand things like this make me keep on tryin'

Java is 14 years old, and was NEVER meant for fridges.

Maybe an urban legend what I said but it was, indeed, targeted to a set-top
boxes... Maybe the thing before Java name...  I can recall I heard the story during my studies...  What an asshole the lecturer guy!

[/quote]

You can't live in a bubble... face facts and enjoy what the Amiga means to us! Forget about forcing Amiga down the throats of people who don't care and don't want it![/quote]

Hope is never insanity.

[DiskDoctor]

@ aggro_mix

Exchange Direct Push (a simple rip-off from BlackBerry original technology) works also on Symbian s60 (MfE), Symbian UIQ (RoadSync), iPhone sure, BB too :-)

Marketing Windows Mobile was always about the illusion of uniquity and conformity. Managers are not necessarily techies.

But as a result, the platform grows.  I can see mUAE on any top platform that would boost it up to others.

[DiskDoctor]

stefcep2 wrote:
Just read the first post.  Nice discussion about the different OS's on mobile phones (thats what they're called in the rest of the world) BUT:  What Amiga exclusive games ( can't see any worthy apps to port so i assume its games you want) are there that would be worth all the work getting the custom chips emulated on a phone.  I think a megadrive or SNES emulator is more likely

That's an alternative you say.  An alternative, that's all.  SNES was also 16bit right? I got NES and it was rather a C64 alike...

A notion here would be that most stunning arcade games (music, graphic, playability, feel, climate, etc.) were those of Amiga.  No other.  Depends on the scene's size, and on the cult level, too. I think only the Amiga people have so much guts to talk about it at all.

A linguistic remark - I used cellphone term because some time ago in my life I was faced to the choice which flag should I pick to further learn English.  The pity is I forgot there's one more down below... :-(

[DiskDoctor]

persia wrote:
I think UAE does have a decent chance of getting Amiga enthusiasts to use it on their phones.  Anyone else, forget about it.  But really who cares about anyone else?  We're a small group of people who want to have a foot in the '80s, what's wrong with that?  Does every iPhone or WM app have to sell 100,000 copies?  

Well, if you want to achieve something, $$ plays always major role in it.  What I meant about Amiga mobile marketing or encouraging people is a simple use of teeny players, that maybe would tell their older brothers or sisters or else, they just got a great Amiga game on their phone (not necessarily knowing what this all Amiga is all about).  Not too many people would they get back to Amiga OS, but a guy pointed out here... 6000 of geeks (what about amigaworld.net??)... say, what about doubling it? if figures are 100 000 in fact, this is roughly possible.  Those all people would be happy really... As I am after these boring years.

Money would boost the whole idea, besides profits to the maker.

Why can't we just enjoy Amiga without worrying about some prophesied second coming?

We do, I do, why quit the idea that is simply extending this?

[DiskDoctor]

bloodline wrote:

Hang on!! All you are selling is the Emulator...
The people who buy this Emulator then have to buy an Amiga ROM... and then have to search Ebay to find a copy of some game they probably don't know about (if you are under 25 you will have NO idea what an Amiga is...)... And then they need an Amiga to rip the Amiga Floppy Game to an ADF... then they have to upload the ADF to the device... then they have to configure the Emulator...

If it is about sales, I didn't say this business plan would be easy, in fact it's extremely complicated!  So another way, maybe there's just a need for free PocketUAE up-to-date only?

Hope is never insanity.

Hope without reason is insanity.

Idea is always a reason, not necessarily reasonable...
Besides, just been talking, that's all...

warpdesign wrote:

There's no way Amiga emulation would bring users to OS4.
Amiga emulation as you think about it (I guess at least) is all about games. What the bridge between 99% of amiga games (which simply kill the OS to run) and OS4 ? Tell me...

Actually the only bridge is a brand name, you're absolutely right those instances are in fact opposed to each other...

Oh, and I forgot: what about controls ? How do you control joystick based games with your fingers (in case of the iPhone & other touch phones) or keypad (in case of normal phone).

I mentioned controls already a few times here.  Many cells have joysticks, Nokias, SEs etc. above the regular/qwerty keypad.  Take a look.  Joystick/joypad/whatever is everything needed here.  Touch UI smartphones need reengineering, though.  But think of Lemmings for example.

Oh, and one last thing: if you exclude powerfull smartphones (iphone, blackberry like, powerfull nokias,...), I'm sure most current mobile phones haven't got the raw power to emulate an Amiga. And I say raw power: this is ignoring the fact that most applications are JAVA based on mobile phones.

I do not exclude smartphones, I exclude everything else.  To make ANY (forgot about capitals) I mean - any sense of releasing something non-trivial for mobile, one has to focus on open operating systems only.  There are many people that wanted to make a product working on every phone, now in institutions...


EDIT* I wasn't ever thinking of JAVA.  I proposed smartphones because of their open operating systems, which is in fact a branded, direct, open and standarized API.

You want to play classic games in your phone ? Then buy an iPhone, and play pinball dreams, payback, etc... (I'm sure a lot more will be coming in the near future)

Yeah, you all, again, dissuade me from considering the whole thing, I guess it's a good piece of advice to get all available games for mobile for a start :-)

I will! Have two mobile platforms already - Symbian s60 plus WM6 Smart.
Besides, If I finish my research, I'll try to post it here in gaming section.  That's something added, tiny though.

[DiskDoctor]

I dug in the web for a while.

There's a source (GNU I guess) available for PocketUAE, though outdated more that an already outdated most recent binary.

I am not as much experienced in this area so ask you for help here.  What am I supposed to have to build WM5/WM6 binary out of it??  Is this like:
- having Visual Studio. NET
- having Windows Mobile SDK
- choosing the target platform
- building from the source
- ... now goes the most tricky part - fixing all build errors :-)

Is that right? I ask any NET programmers here, please help.

Besides myUAE for Palm I mentioned already, I found yet another - PalmUAE. Check out nice pictures!  First one is due to work on PalmOS five, another one - my guess - PalmOS4 or 5.

Can/did anyone equipped with appropriate Palm check if this works??

[DiskDoctor]

@ bloodline:

I disagree. I do not believe that yet another smartphone application not using any radio will kill the battery.  Batteries are more resistant those days.

My Windows Mobile cell lives for three days.  It is simply not possible to me that UAE would dry it out in an hour... Sometimes I play games and the phone still works for some time.  This standby/active factor is not as demonic as you say.