Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Franko on May 20, 2011, 07:28:58 AM
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I am wondering just which OS would prove better for the future of the Amiga instead of having to rely solely on the original Amiga roms and the original Amiga Workbench... (especially with things like the NatAmi coming up) :)
There are only 3 possible contenders that I can see but there may be more that I don't know about, these are AROS, MorphOS and OS4.X :)
AROS, While I understand a bit about AROS and what it's trying to achieve but have never had the opportunity to actually try it out myself. I personally think this would be the most obvious and best way for the Amiga to go in the long term but have to wonder will it ever be completed... :)
OS4.x, While I've had bad experiences of using version 4.0 of this but at least this seems to be continually developed and is closer to a real Workbench experience than from what I understand and have seen of the others, the only problem I have with OS4.x is that to me personally it seems to be a bit bloated for lack of a better term and wonder if it could ever be re-written to run say on just an 060 based Amiga or even PPC based Amiga without the need for a GFX/RTG card of some kind which would make it more available to a wider user base... :)
MorphOS, I've only ever experienced this on a very old version on a real Amiga with a PPC board. I have to say it was just awful and totally useless, from what I know of it now and have seen and read on various sites it's actually even worse now than the old version I tried and seems to me personally to be of little value or use in regard to having a new OS that at least give you that feeling that you're still using an Amiga. So for me I reckon MorphOS is best consigned to the dustbin... :)
There may be more that I haven't heard about but as I've only ever heard of these 3 then I just wonder which of these really would be the best way forward and why... :
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Im not seeing much benefit in running the "next gen" stuff, but of the options, AROS is the only way.
Its open source, so it can't be taken away, and there's very little cost of investment.
It may be behind Morph or OS4 in some respects but it has room to grow. Morph seems cool but it has no place to go. (they could port it, but given how long and still no laptop support or even basic stuff like wireless, I kind of doubt they can pull that off)
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Loved MorphOS 0.4 on my BPPC quite lot even if it was little slow.
Btw you could have included OS3 option to the poll.
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Its a tough one, I would like to say OS4, I am a OS4 fan and plan to get a OS4 machine this year, but I think that maybe it would be better to support Aros simple because if a company fails or some closed source parts can no longer be used then development can run to a halt, that problem doesn't effect Aros, plus its very nature means anyone can come along and design their view of how an ng AmigaOS should be and release it, its been ported to a number of devices and is hardware free so no one can say 86x VS PPC crap, its free so no complaints about price. Plus I dont like saying this but the key Aros users and supporter are more professional than both Hyperion and MorphOS team and very little do I see their thread debunked to moan about either OS4 or MorphOS, and this whole daft Red vs Blue stuff. Plus I love the phase “No schedule 'n' and Rocking” this is why I am a OS4 and Aros supporter.
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Stick everything behind aros and just go go go.
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I haven't used any of them, but my vote is on open source.
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Loved MorphOS 0.4 on my BPPC quite lot even if it was little slow.
Btw you could have included OS3 option to the poll.
As much as Im really only a fan of OS3.x, After all the hoo ha about copyrights etc.. it would seem OS3 will never get out of the legal minefield it's mired in so I left it out...:)
This is more about the upcoming things like the NatAmi or X1000 then leaving aside OS3.x due to all the legal stuff, out of the other choices for an OS which of these would be the best way forward for any type of future Amiga... :)
I myself voted for AROS as from what I can gather about it, the 68K version is really the most compatible for me in Amiga hardware terms, though the one question I really have about AROS is will it only exist as a sort of ROM image file or can it actually be burned to a physical ROM and plugged into say an A1200 for example if someone had the ability to create such a physical ROM... :)
I suppose if you really want to vote OS3.x you could choose other but for the reasons I've given above it doesn't seem to fit into this particular poll/question... :)
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I'd say AROS as well. Does/will the 68k AROS need the AROS kickstart, or would it work with a Kick 3.1 ROM?
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@antonvaltaz
It needs the AROS kickstart. On the other hand, AmigaOS3 now boots on the AROS kickstart. :)
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@Franko
The main idea is that if you have a ROM burner then you can burn your own ROM with the AROS Kickstart image. Once you have that you should be able to install it into a real Amiga, and run all your old Amiga software (including your original Workbench ;) ) plus you get access to AROS only software as well. For old systems like the A500 with only a few Kb of RAM this might be the only real option :)
Sadly I don't have a ROM burner since I got rid of my PIC programmer... Personally I prefer to softkick the AROS rom so that I can use the latest build at all times :)
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For classics and NATAMI, AROS68K... no brainer there...
for the NG-AMIGA, Syllable or Linux/BSD, as a base. I would have included QNX too, but they're now RIM's property.
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AROS, in the last few months it has really got going.
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I voted AROS. I won't pay ridiculous money for 10 year old speed ppc hardware just to run amiga os4. Their closed model, and rape everyone left for every penny you can and give them as little power as possible "strategy" dosn't appeal to me.
They are killing themselves staying on ridiculous expensive slow ass old hardware. Don't mention X1000 to me because its not real yet, so what is the fastest amiga os4 machine you can buy now? 1ghz? I think I got a 1ghz computer in the year 2000. Come on man, really.
Aros runs beautifully on just about any pc. Add a sblive (20$) an intel network card (20$) and an fx550 nvidia card for 40$ and you've got a fantastic machine for very little investment. I also love knowing aros can never die, or be controlled by fucktards.
MORPHOS is my second choice. PPC Macs are priced reasonably for what you get. I just wish they finish support for g5 macs. If they did that I think I'd buy a g5 ppc mac and morph right away.
Steven
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WB3.1. What can I say, I'm a contrarian.
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I voted other. I would have said 4.0 but it is not compatable with classic machines. Classic Amiga's are my main area of interest in the Amiga world. I guess my vote goes to 3.9.
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AROS. Since it's open source it can go anywhere, even in multiple directions. It can even lie dormant for years and someone could just pick up the torch one day and keep going.
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Either Linux or Windows based...it's the only way!
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-aros for now.
@bloodline: you can softkick aros on real amiga already now.
see my post (#13) here:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57421
TheBilgeRat:
download the current nightly. in the distfiles folder you will find an adf archive of a boot floppy. using f.i diskimage device (http://aminet.net/disk/misc/diskimage.m68k-aos.zip)
you will be able to decompress it to a real floppy. also the best is to prepare aros boot partition on a hard disk (just coppy the content of nightly to it and mark the partition as bootable).
now, boot from the prepared floppy drive, which will extract the aros kickstart to ram and boot from there. you can recognize aros kickstart booting by dirty-ocker-yellow color on screen (lol). if you have a bootable aros harddisk partition attached to the system (preferably via internal ide or accelerator scsi) chances are that your system will boot to wanderer. be sure to have it a highest priority hd.
i have tested and can confirm a4k 030/040/060 as working, except for csppc. also many configs of a1200 work, in particular blizzard 1260. there is problem wit elbox fastata so far i see.
anyways further testers would be very welcome.
(i thought you would know)
sorry for spelling and typos. my bad.
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I voted OS4 because it looks like it needed a bit more support in the poll. (Being a new OS4 owner)
However, in all truth, AROS is the way forward IMO, if nothing else than because it's open-source. Targetting x86 helps make it accessible also.
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@CSixx
sounds really like a valid reason to support os4. any other thoughts?
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I voted AROS because of its potential, however, MorphOS its the best OS currently.
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OS4.x+ ported to x86
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@CSixx
sounds really like a valid reason to support os4. any other thoughts?
I have yet to receive it (I just purchased the classic 4.1). Once I've installed and had a bit to play, I'll definitely be posting my thoughts.
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MorphOS, I've only ever experienced this on a very old version on a real Amiga with a PPC board. I have to say it was just awful and totally useless, from what I know of it now and have seen and read on various sites it's actually even worse now than the old version I tried and seems to me personally to be of little value or use in regard to having a new OS that at least give you that feeling that you're still using an Amiga. So for me I reckon MorphOS is best consigned to the dustbin... :)
Nice troll.
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Nice troll.
Thank you... I thought so myself... ;)
But it's actually better than that, I killed two birds with one stone with this thread... :)
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Didn't vote, because I think the best way forward for 68020+ with chipset is to write a completely new OS from scratch, without any kind of AOS compatibility. The problem is of course that all software has to be written from scratch, too... Hmm, problematic, isn't it?
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I vote Aros mainly because it is open sourced. It has a ways to go obviously but in reviewing the last distribution of Icaros, it is progressing well. I hear it is also near to becoming a useful 68K entity. This would be good for upcoming FPGA hardware projects but legacy stuff too. And finally, it is portable to other hardware.
I do happen to like MorphOS and have reviewed on an Efika hardware setup. It seems tightly constructed. And ran quite well on a miserable thing like Efika. As much as Aros makes sense, MorphOS remains intriguing. Nice OS with good developers behind it. Maybe just not as many 3rd party developers like the other ppc operating system.
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Nice troll.
Dead on, as MorphOS 1.X and MorphOS2.x are different creatures.
You all know my bias, so I won't bother restating it.
Actually for 68K and X86 AROS makes sense.
But for PPC, MorphOS all the way baby.
And here's a bet, no matter what you use in the future, MorphOs will be better
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In the long term, AROS is the most feasible. OS4.x is based on hardware that does not have a future roadmap. MorphOS is based on old Mac hardware which is limited in quantity. AROS is based on hardware that is plentiful and has ongoing development. I've tried the latest versions of both ICAROS Desktop and Broadway and they have really come quite a way from their beginnings. They are becoming more stable with each release. And the support for hardware is great. I have ICAROS 1.2.6 on a Dell OptiPlex GX280 with 3.2 GHz HT CPU, 2 GB RAM, 80 GB HD and an NVidia GS8400 512 MB PCI-e video card. The built-in AC97 audio works. Even the DVD drive is recognized. I got a cheap 3COM NIC for networking. I run it on a 20" WS LCD screen in 1680x1050 resolution.
On the software side, OWB works pretty well, but could be a bit faster. MPlayer is nice. I would like to see a decent office package. Right now, i just go into Janus-UAE, where I installed my old productivity software to do office stuff. There is actually quite a lot of software for AROS now. Hopefully, printing support will come soon.
And the other cool thing which I don't see on others, is pull-down screens just like the classic Amigas. Pretty cool, and actually quite useful.
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Would there be a possibility of a virtual machine like Virtualbox running in AROS? Might solve some of the issues of software. A Crossover type system might be nice but it would be easier to just port open office than get something like that running.....
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MorphOS is the best Amiga OS ever made. The fastest, most modern, most compatible and best implemented. It would be nice to see it running on architectures other than PPC, but even so it leaves the other alternatives in it's dust.
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Would there be a possibility of a virtual machine like Virtualbox running in AROS? Might solve some of the issues of software. A Crossover type system might be nice but it would be easier to just port open office than get something like that running.....
+1 on that. AROS really needs something like Virtualbox. That one app would open the door for everything that didn't run native.
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MorphOS is the best Amiga OS ever made. The fastest, most modern, most compatible and best implemented. It would be nice to see it running on architectures other than PPC, but even so it leaves the other alternatives in it's dust.
I agree 100% about MorphOS now that I have used all three modern Amiga's. I still voted for AROS though because PPC is a dead end. It is that great that the PPC Mac ports have made it available for cheap for all that want to use it.
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+1 on that. AROS really needs something like Virtualbox. That one app would open the door for everything that didn't run native.
There's an effort that PhoenixKonsole is working on called Broadway Plus X. It is an effort to make hosted AROS run with Linux while allowing the X server to remain active for running LibreOffice or OpenOffice.org and any other Linux app that AROS doesn't have an equivalent to. It also should support the non-free drivers that Linux supports. BTW, AROS runs inside VirtualBox but it's really not worth it without the Guest Additions to allow folder sharing and the like.
BTW, I voted for AROS also. It's the least common denominator of all of them so a hosted AROS could be ported to OS 4 and MorphOS for source compatibility.
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the only problem I have with OS4.x is that to me personally it seems to be a bit bloated for lack of a better term and wonder if it could ever be re-written to run say on just an 060 based Amiga or even PPC based Amiga without the need for a GFX/RTG card of some kind which would make it more available to a wider user base... :)
OS4 will run on a PPC classic without a graphics card - but it won't be fun. And whatever about PPC being dead-end, the 68060 is so much more dead-end it's not even funny!
You can't have it both ways - if you don't want the new features (or bloat if you prefer) of OS4 then stick with OS3. Nothing wrong with that. Is there really a need for OS4 on an 060/AGA machine? I just don't see the point, even if it was feasible...
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With Aros68k, Aros Kickstart, and new 68k systems we will probably worry much less than we do now. Maybe we will be more at-ease when that happens. The new FPGA systems, I believe, will eventually bring PPC back in some way. If Freescale jumps onboard there may even be a 68k revival. If they do not,oh well.
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The new FPGA systems, I believe, will eventually bring PPC back in some way.
I think you are mistaken there. I think the PPC is morally wounded by the fact that its instruction set requires more memory to represent the same code. This makes all of the caches less efficient and memory a more overvalued commodity.
If there is a revival of the 68k processor it may put some of the existing CISC designs on the defensive in ways that the PPC never could. The N68050, for example, will be able to represent certain opcodes as combinations of two opcodes. (This will allow 3 operand instructions to be encoded in a backward-compatible way to the traditional 68k machines.)
ARM may stand a chance though. There's enough time and talent going into the ARM chips now that it will definitely beat PPC on every front leaving only CISC/RISC hybrids such as the 64-bit Intel x86's and AMD64 to fight over the rest. If the 68k doesn't come back by the time that Windows 8 comes out for the ARM processors, it probably never will.
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Are there tools for converting OS4.x to Arm? Will it allow a port to be easy.
Easy is a relative term.
PPC, just tell an Amigan it can't be done. Chuckle.
I guess FPGA would allow Amiga OS4.x classic to live a little longer.
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Aros 68k rocks! :banana:
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Are there tools for converting OS4.x to Arm? Will it allow a port to be easy.
Easy is a relative term.
PPC, just tell an Amigan it can't be done. Chuckle.
I guess FPGA would allow Amiga OS4.x classic to live a little longer.
Most of the apps for OS 4 are written in C rather than Assembly making them MUCH easier to port to ARM AROS. That's right, AROS already has an ARM version for that Efika netbook.
What we need most is not a new OS but a new compiler backend. GCC is kludgey and LLVM is catching up with the quality of code generated by it. This would allow a target-neutral sandbox based on AROS for all versions of AROS including hosted versions of AROS for PPC systems.
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I had such a rough week I didn't understand the question so defaulted to "Pancakes".
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I am wondering what the Tool Chain is going to look like when Natami and Replay get released. It appears to me that getting a programing package is not as strait foreward as it could be. Some will want to use their new machines to write programs.
Hopefully, I am wrong and there is some ready made software.
I would have to agree with an early post on making our own platform.
To me what is left is Amiga Preservation. This could be Source Code/ Binaries/ Documentation, Video, and Audio.
Sorry, this is off topic. Sorry Fanko.
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AROS - because it's the longest text adventure I ever played :juggler:
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Would there be a possibility of a virtual machine like Virtualbox running in AROS? Might solve some of the issues of software. A Crossover type system might be nice but it would be easier to just port open office than get something like that running.....
In a way this already exists. You can run both DOSBox and Bochs in AROS. This allows you to use MS-DOS, Windows and Linux software within AROS. Does that suffice?
http://www.dosbox.com/
http://bochs.sourceforge.net/
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Of course MorphOS. It is the most polished and versatile OS. AROS holds quite some potential but isn't as polished as MorphOS.
@ Franko
You change your opinion about MorphOS quite often. I'd suggest to read http://via.i-networx.de/wim.htm again or - even better - check out yourself the current version on a powerful G4. Or have a pint, or two - Cheers!
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from the ng alternatives mos looks most polished of course.
os4 stands on the second place by the looks of it though it is in obviously many areas technically inferior to aros.
aros is still a wip construct, though there is apparently some exchange with mprphos and from all three (or four if 3.x counted in) it is the single open source solution and therefore it has most chances, not even because it runs on x68 too.
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MorphOS is way ahead of any and all of the competition in the Amiga field. And MorphOS is the only one that has shown an ability to move Far Forward Fast (relatively speaking)! Not open source, so its development is entirely controlled by the development team. OTOH, open source isn't necessarily the best way forward; it could very well mean very slow and unstructured development in an anarchistic way with no goals. That's not good, if you want "the best way forward".
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MorphOS is way ahead of any and all of the competition in the Amiga field. And MorphOS is the only one that has shown an ability to move Far Forward Fast (relatively speaking)! Not open source, so its development is entirely controlled by the development team. OTOH, open source isn't necessarily the best way forward; it could very well mean very slow and unstructured development in an anarchistic way with no goals. That's not good, if you want "the best way forward".
Agree, it is way forward.
But picture yourself 50 years forward. What are you gonna run then, 55 year old Mac with MOS or latest mainstream architecture with AROS, wtf,,, 50 years from now, AROS might just become very usable as a workstation (if the concept of a workstation computer is still around then).
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MorphOS is way ahead of any and all of the competition in the Amiga field. And MorphOS is the only one that has shown an ability to move Far Forward Fast (relatively speaking)! Not open source, so its development is entirely controlled by the development team. OTOH, open source isn't necessarily the best way forward; it could very well mean very slow and unstructured development in an anarchistic way with no goals. That's not good, if you want "the best way forward".
morphos even being closed source has gathered most talented amiga developers in its ranks, but how long does it last without fresh blood? no non-commercial but still closed source project like morphos can improve its dynamics, in my opinion, it can only sustain that as long as possible. this is why os4 and mos are doomed in a long therm, im afraid. its *not* what i wish, just to be clear! while aros does not get much attention compared to both others, not to speek of attracting "young blood" it gets quite a drive lately.
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Comment made on a controlled OS development strategy.... I like this very much as I am design engineer in much different industry. I have no idea to what degree this is employed by the various OS camps. I do know that MorphOS ran quite well and had a solid, put together feel about it. In reading their various reading materials, I think much of the under-the-hood stuff in MorphOS is pretty decent. I have always been a Cybergraphx fan from my 68K RTG perspective. The other video system aspects are also quite efficient and exhibit good speed on quite old Radeon video hardware, and the look/feel of Ambient is quite good. I like how easy Morph installed onto the Efika. It was a few mouse clicks, that's it. So the building blocks look to be pretty good in MorphOS. If this was a result of some controlled developer strategy, then good job I say. I am still hunting for some g4 powermac hardware to jump into this game better. They are quite cheap I see. MorphOS would really get my attention with g4 powerbook support. Maybe some day.
Aros/Icaros version has a nice appearance to it. I do not think Wanderer is quite as nice as Ambient but it is basic and works. I think the accelerated video drivers are a good thing. Even in VESA mode running from live DVD, I was able to screen drag smoothly with all screen contents staying rock solid. Aros is coming along and I will support it. The fact I could download the dvd image, burn it, and then immediately boot cleanly on my Dell Precision M65 laptop all in less than 1/2 hour was excellent.
I took a quick look at Aros 68K this afternoon. I had it 1/2 way functioning in a winuae configuration. I see it is receiving a lot of attention lately. Which is good because my hopes are that it runs well on anything 68k (amiga, uae, fpga stuff). Call me lazy but I am getting tired of tweaking and patching up my original 3.x based OS. Aros 68K offers the opportunity to have 1000 fixes rolled into a polished OS. Count me in.
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Aros is at 51.72%.
Arm is bi-endian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture
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Hi,
First of all I see no promise in anything associated with PPC, therefore I am in favor of AROS, which looks the most promising to me. I don't like MorphOS because they are more MAC ass-ociated. I hate anything to do with MAC's, it was the most god awful computer ever made for people who know absolutely nothing about computers. Wouldn't even have one in my house. So
My Vote is
(Drum roll please)
AROS
smerf
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Your Anti-Apple/Mac sentiments are old news (and personally I don't think based on anything but an emotional response of yours), so I don't know why you keep using it against the MorphOS Development Team. They have only chosen to support PPC Mac computers because there are/were no other good choices for them to easily port MorphOS to. Nothing that makes sense, given the time and effort it would take for porting to another architecture and the best available hardware for price and performance. They have made the best choice for their time constraints and for the users pocket books. Besides, MorphOS2.x runs very well on the Pegasos1 & 2 and Efika platforms, which are not Apple products.
As much as I like MorphOS2.x and see it as the best choice for today, I voted for AROS, as I see it as the best chance in the future.
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Open Source
Closed Source
Closed Source
Some Other Source
A Source of Pancakes
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Hi,
@Amigadave,
Sorry to upset you, but last I heard this is the Amiga.org site, not the MAC.org site, where does an OS made for MAC's fit in on this site.
You probably could say the same thing for UAE emulators, but you also have to remember that Cloanto's Amiga Forever is an Amiga Emulator and has the Amiga name attached to it.
MorphOS has no association at all with Amiga, and ever since they dropped the original version and switched mostly to MAC's they should take their propaganda to a MAC site and display their software there.
Sorry, but this is the way I feel about MorphOS. A MAC OS made for MAC's.
smerf
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This was a loaded question from the start.
For 68k Amigas, there is obviously only one choice. That is Aros. MorphOS is not 68k, and neither is OS4. It may work on PPC computers that use an old Amiga as a backplane, but it is not an OS for fully classic Amigas.
If your going to count OSes that run on non-Amiga hardware, you have an entirely different conversation, and as much as some people will hate to hear it, it includes COS.
For non-Amiga Amigas, the future is likely COS running UAE with AmigaOS 1.0-3.x or ArosX86 running UAE and Aros68k for classic compatibility.
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Dave, basically Smerf is a troll. I would not bother attempting to reason with him as he has a closed mind.
Frankly I'm solidly behind PPC, whether we're talking about AOS4 or MorphOS.
AROS is interesting, but I'd rather not run my OS on an X86.
As MorphOS is designed to run Amiga software and MorphOS specific software and re-implements 3.1 system calls, Smerfs opinions are idiotic.
MorphOs runs no Mac software and is the most advanced NG OS available for the Amiga market.
If that isn't an association with the Amiga, I don't know what is.
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@smerf,
I am not the one who is upset and non-objective about this subject. A Mac computer is just a piece of hardware, no different than a HP, or Compaq, or IBM, or any other brand name. Why it upsets you so much that the MorphOS Dev. Team has taken advantage to use the best PPC computers available to them is purely an emotional problem of yours, not an objective reason. MorphOS is just as "Amiga" as AmigaOS4.x, or any other Amiga-Like system, if not more so. You are just too blind to see it and conveniently disregard the fact that it also runs on Non-Mac systems.
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Hi,
@amigadave,
The only thing I was really upset about with Morphos was that they took down the classic Amiga morphos. I will now give my apology to the morphos team because they have now reset the classic Amiga Morphos board back up. I have just downloaded Morphos for my A1200 (a real Amiga) and will now apologize for my saying that it is a MAC OS for MAC computers. It is now an OS for Amiga computers, and yes I do have a problem with Apple made computers, they are not a real computer, they were made by a egotistical jerk, and personally I would not own one if they gave it to me.
At one time I thought about getting a mini MAC G4, then I took my meds and came back to reality.
Got to go and see if I can get MorphOS running on my A1200 (a real Amiga computer not a wannabe MAC) Thank you MorphOS team, once again. Even if I don't get it running, I will always appreciate this day, and say nothing bad about MorphOS again. I also bought OS 4.1 for the classic Amiga today, it truly must be the end of the world, or maybe just an early Xmas.
smerf
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Actually i thought Smerf was right. But only half right. I think Morphos is the best Amigaos available but i would never use it full time. I don't like the hardware it runs on. I want to use an Amiga not an Apple.
As for hardware alternatives to run non Apple Morphos, like what? Pegasus? Efika? Can you name anything that is readily available and modern?
I also disagree that Apple is just another hardware company. It's not. I saw on tv this morning scientists comparing Apple to a religion. When was the last time HP was compared to a religion? Never. There are a couple of reasons why i don't want to use Apple hardware but mainly i don't want to be an Apple fanboy in denial. I also don't want people to think i'm too cheap to use a real Apple os and instead am using a cheaper mediocre substitute.
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(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s241/renatoOo/Dancing_Troll.gif)
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Hi,
@Iggy,
I really love it when you new guys come around and try to tell me what an Amiga is after I bought my Amiga 2 weeks after they hit the market, worked for Commodore selling Amiga's for 6 years (of which 3 years I won salesman of the year competing against MAC's and PC's) and sold Amiga's to Mr. Lucas. Now you come around and tell me that a MAC is an Amiga, can I ask you what kind of drugs you are using, because I definitely want some of them. You are really stuck in the PAST, (like most MAC users), PPC is gone, it has withered away, and is dead, so what you are saying is that rather look to the future and go with modern day equipment, lets use something that is dead.
Try selling that to people, the computer people in the know would laugh in your face, you might sell it to the Amiga people today that switched over to MAC's, but the real Amiga users would probably tell you to hit the road.
With people like you making the decisions, the Amiga might as well die, because using your ancient and I do mean ancient words of wisdom, and not looking towards the future the Amiga surly is dead because you truly don't understand the computer market. With your sales approach using the PPC chips you might sell (and I do mean might) a hundred computers. Go back and play with your slow, no go 1.4 ghz PPC, who knows one day you might even figure out how to get it to run a DVD movie (in black and white).
And I am sorry if I speak the truth, I always look to the future, as did Jay Miner.
smerf
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(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s241/renatoOo/Dancing_Troll.gif)
Hi,
Come on Persia you can do way better than that.
smerf
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P.O.S. would be my first vote. It's so awesome!
Since it was not an option, I would have to say MorphOS, though I can't say I ever used OS 4, and probably won't as I've yet to find a reason to spend so much cash to run it.
Anyhow, an observation in regards to the AROS votes...
I've a strong feeling none of these guys have ever used MorphOS in the long term. You would not believe how well polished this OS is. I mean really!!!
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I agree that morphos is probably more polished, but you have to remember, AROS is also open source and runs on just about any spare pc anyone has laying around.
I keep saying someday I'll get a mac mini or emac to try morphos out, but so far I haven't yet. If it ran on x86 I'd probably have tried it right away.
Convienance is often an overlooked factor in choice of os. AROS is easier to try and easier to get an extra system to play with it on.
Open source is also a very attractive part of why I like AROS.
Steven
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Anyhow, an observation in regards to the AROS votes...
I've a strong feeling none of these guys have ever used MorphOS in the long term. You would not believe how well polished this OS is. I mean really!!!
As someone who voted AROS: It doesn't matter how polished MOS is. My reason for voting AROS is that it's open source.
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As someone who voted AROS: It doesn't matter how polished MOS is. My reason for voting AROS is that it's open source.
that which belongs to everyone can't be taken away.
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I agree that morphos is probably more polished, but you have to remember, AROS is also open source and runs on just about any spare pc anyone has laying around.
I keep saying someday I'll get a mac mini or emac to try morphos out, but so far I haven't yet. If it ran on x86 I'd probably have tried it right away.
Convienance is often an overlooked factor in choice of os. AROS is easier to try and easier to get an extra system to play with it on.
Open source is also a very attractive part of why I like AROS.
Steven
I like AROS, I like the idea of an Open Source semi-Amiga compatible X86 based OS, but my experience with it over the past few years has not been without MUCH frustration. There is a very limited chip set combination which AROS works with. Sure you can get it to boot on plenty of machines out there, but you can't get it to run smoothly without frequent lock ups, slow down, and crashes. I even have a machine that seems to check out on AROS's compatibility list, and it does... until you throw a game like Quake at it and try to run it in full screen. And God forbid you attempt to launch a classic Amiga game in ADF format, or to try to get Workbench to co-exist with AROS without a system lock up within 5 minutes or less.
So no, the "any old PC" pitch doesn't fly here like it did with BeOS back in the day. And "Convienance?" Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! NO! At least not yet.
Though...
...from what I can tell from the Youtube videos, AROS works well on the Imica PC's that are being sold. In fact I'm highly considering buying one so I can actually enjoy AROS in the ways AROS users state they are enjoying it. I mean if I could get it to run as well as it does on those Youtube videos, I'd be elated! I'd be even more elated if AROS or MorphOS could provide support for a laptop and wireless to boot, but that's another story... ;)
Anyhow, ya, there's my AROS experience. She arouses my hopes, then leaves me broken hearted and alone.
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I haven't used AROS or Morph OS but I will be happy to get 3.1 on my A2000. I am way behind on the Amiga front. My vote has to go to AROS. Like others have said it is open source.
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I like AROS, I like the idea of an Open Source semi-Amiga compatible X86 based OS, but my experience with it over the past few years has not been without MUCH frustration. There is a very limited chip set combination which AROS works with. Sure you can get it to boot on plenty of machines out there, but you can't get it to run smoothly without frequent lock ups, slow down, and crashes. I even have a machine that seems to check out on AROS's compatibility list, and it does... until you throw a game like Quake at it and try to run it in full screen. And God forbid you attempt to launch a classic Amiga game in ADF format, or to try to get Workbench to co-exist with AROS without a system lock up within 5 minutes or less.
So no, the "any old PC" pitch doesn't fly here like it did with BeOS back in the day. And "Convienance?" Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! NO! At least not yet.
Though...
...from what I can tell from the Youtube videos, AROS works well on the Imica PC's that are being sold. In fact I'm highly considering buying one so I can actually enjoy AROS in the ways AROS users state they are enjoying it. I mean if I could get it to run as well as it does on those Youtube videos, I'd be elated! I'd be even more elated if AROS or MorphOS could provide support for a laptop and wireless to boot, but that's another story... ;)
Anyhow, ya, there's my AROS experience. She arouses my hopes, then leaves me broken hearted and alone.
There's also the aresone to look into, if thats still around. Im not sure where and how that and the imica compares but I do know both projects donate back into aros.
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There's also the aresone to look into, if thats still around. Im not sure where and how that and the imica compares but I do know both projects donate back into aros.
iMica covers the low end, Ares One covers the high end, both of the people behind these projects (Steve and Pascal) contribute to AROS in various ways, including donations to AROS bounties.
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One other point, and not to be made to bash AROS, but rather to point out a reality.
Amiga apps and games will NEVER be compatible with AROS unless re-written and obviously only a small percent of those programs will ever get re-written. That being so, AROS (in regards to the retro Amiga experience), must and can only take place via emulation. Thus AROS's main highlight is the fact that it is a means to emulate Amiga within an Amiga like environment, free of the presence of Linux or Windows. That's my current attraction.
MorphOS on the other hand, can run MANY Amiga programs without emulation, and at speeds that far surpass emulation speeds even on high end AROS compatible hardware. This is an edge that AROS will not have until PC hardware begins to make giant strides in speed at an affordable (disposable) price. Though, for the time being, AROS does have the JIT edge, which MorphOS currently suffers without for it really needs it to be able to play that pile of software which can not be run natively under MorphOS. Of course JIT is being ported to PPC so time will change all...
As for me, I like to play with what ever I can afford, and I personally can not wait for the Natami!
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@Xdelusion
You have missed the point that AROS on the 68k can run Amiga Apps :) you can try of your yourself on your real Amiga now if you like.
The point is that AROS currenty runs on:
1. Real Amigas
2. The PPC machines
3. X86 Machines
4. X86-64 Machines (I know all modern x86 machines are actually this now)
5. ARM machines
To quote Sam earlier, AROS is the lowest common denominator. It has a future in terms of hardware support and also in terms of retro support.
When you buy into AROS you aren't buying into a specific hardware platform, you are buying into an "Amiga" platform that suits your personal hardware requirements.
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Hi,
Go back and play with your slow, no go 1.4 ghz PPC, who knows one day you might even figure out how to get it to run a DVD movie (in black and white).
Sorry to tell you MorphOS plays DVD just fine since years (on a 1.4GHz CPU, playing a DVD takes something like 35-40% CPU).
And now, what about taking your meds and be a bit less emotive about a mere computer? Who the hell cares if Apple is a sect, these ppc mac don't profit Apple anymore, anyway. The point is to use semi-decent hardware. And yes, even these old crappy macs still outperform AROS on recent PCs in several areas, thanks to a better optimisation of the OS or applications.
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Bloodline: Is it as good as WorkBench 3.1 or better? Also, how's it work with the resources? How does it run on a stock A600? Is it fully compatible, is the speed I'd expect from WB 3.1 intact, or would I need something more like an 030?
Likewise, how does it handle with something like a 50to80Mhz 060 with 32 to 64Mb or RAM?
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@ Bloodline
Even though I voted for AROS before your first post in this thread where you clarified for me about "burning it to a ROM", I have to say after reading all the post here that I am now a true believer in AROS being the way forward for future Amiga platforms... :)
Still prefer the 68k side of things but with the likes of NatAmi hopefully around the corner then I believe AROS would be easier to implement on such a machine and would indeed be the best option for it... :)
As for MorphOS, still say it sux big time, looks far too much like these Crapple Macs I'm using and they suck big time too... (sorry just couldn't resist that wee dig)... :)
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Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane. AROS is pretty decent once you find the "magic solution" of what it works on HW wise, but I've never seen a more finicky mess of an OS.
Box 1 - AMD X2 4200/7800 card. Aros doesn't see the SATA side at all. Try and run off IDE HD's, AROS just locks up.
Box 2 - far newer machine, Intel quad core extreme, nvidia 9800. Gfx card issues with AROS, but SATA works fine.
Put gfx card from box 1 into box 2, box 2 works half assed, but has wild banding and screenmode issues. Give up, go buy beer and throw the CD away for another 6 months.
AROS 68k seems interesting, but still comes back to the fact I don't like using legacy Amiga HW, simply due to its' age. Morph and OS4 both work fine for my Amiga purposes, Morph having a bit more "polish" to it.
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Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane. AROS is pretty decent once you find the "magic solution" of what it works on HW wise, but I've never seen a more finicky mess of an OS.
Box 1 - AMD X2 4200/7800 card. Aros doesn't see the SATA side at all. Try and run off IDE HD's, AROS just locks up.
Box 2 - far newer machine, Intel quad core extreme, nvidia 9800. Gfx card issues with AROS, but SATA works fine.
Put gfx card from box 1 into box 2, box 2 works half assed, but has wild banding and screenmode issues. Give up, go buy beer and throw the CD away for another 6 months.
It's only a few years since Linux was pretty much in the same situation with. It's down to getting enough developers to get more driver support, which will take time.
In the meantime, yes, you need to be careful about what hardware you pick *or* run AROS Linux hosted without a windows manager (which will make the AROS window run without any window borders etc.), which will run everywhere Linux will.
AROS 68k seems interesting, but still comes back to the fact I don't like using legacy Amiga HW, simply due to its' age.
Well, Natami and FPGA Arcade will take away the "age" issue.
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As for MorphOS, still say it sux big time, looks far too much like these Crapple Macs I'm using and they suck big time too... (sorry just couldn't resist that wee dig)... :)
Aghh, that's just the eye candy. I'm not a big fan of it either so I turn it off unless I'm showing it off to a friend that depends on Eye candy in order to enjoy their OS experience. It makes me feel like I'm treating MorphOS like a cheap whore. :/
I should remember to take some screen grabs of my MorphOS desktop when I get home. It looks and behaves like how you'd expect Work Bench to behave, except for more polished and again, very friendly with Amiga software that does not make direct calls to the Amiga hardware, which again results in us all depending upon emulation, old hardware, or Natami and the other related project who's name eludes me right now.
Now of course the ever so expensive Amiga X1000 is supposed to featured that extra processor which I read somewhere could be used in place of the original Amiga chip set. So am I to presume that this means that in the future Amiga OS 4.x wil be able to run all or nearly all Amiga native software, without emulation, even it it does depend upon the original chip set?
If this becomes the case, or if we could get a PC/Mac G4 compatible PCI card with Amiga chip set clones on it for use with our Work Bench variant of choice, I'd be sold! I'd save money, and make it happen!
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Anyone claiming AROS will run on "any old PC you throw together" is completely insane.
Who claimed that? I haven't seen such a comment here, no one in the know about AROS would make such a comment. AROS is just like any other OS; you pick the hardware it works with. Looks to me like you're just trying to stir up an argument.
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Bloodline: Is it as good as WorkBench 3.1 or better? Also, how's it work with the resources? How does it run on a stock A600? Is it fully compatible, is the speed I'd expect from WB 3.1 intact, or would I need something more like an 030?
Likewise, how does it handle with something like a 50to80Mhz 060 with 32 to 64Mb or RAM?
It's very much a work in progress and full of debugging stuff and lacking lots of optimization still, and it's still slow. If you want to help send bug reports, try it.
Otherwise hold off at least 6-9 months and ask again - it went from not working to a decent state in about that time.
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Amiga apps and games will NEVER be compatible with AROS unless re-written and obviously only a small percent of those programs will ever get re-written. That being so, AROS (in regards to the retro Amiga experience), must and can only take place via emulation. Thus AROS's main highlight is the fact that it is a means to emulate Amiga within an Amiga like environment, free of the presence of Linux or Windows. That's my current attraction.
MorphOS on the other hand, can run MANY Amiga programs without emulation, and at speeds that far surpass emulation speeds even on high end AROS compatible hardware. This is an edge that AROS will not have until PC hardware begins to make giant strides in speed at an affordable (disposable) price. Though, for the time being, AROS does have the JIT edge, which MorphOS currently suffers without for it really needs it to be able to play that pile of software which can not be run natively under MorphOS. Of course JIT is being ported to PPC so time will change all...
I am sorry, but you are just wrong on so many levels.
First and foremost, ALL the solutions you mention have to emulate 68k software if not running on a Motorola 68000-based architecture! That means all of them except AROS-68k. MOS and OS4 do not run on 68k processors. AROS-68k however, runs Amiga software natively.
MorphOS and OS4 are both _emulating_ the 68k programs. The difference is that you do not notice the 68k emulators, called Petunia and Trance respectively. But to say that it is "without emulation" is just plain ignorant.
Now, AROS also has a "transparent emulator" project going on, called Emumiga. It is not done yet, but to say that it never will happen is wrong. When it is done, AROS will have exactly the same transparent emulation capabilities as OS4 and MOS, if not better.
These transparent emulators are only useful for system friendly software making AmigaOS API calls only. If the software uses the Amiga chipset, one has to use a more complete emulator in the form of UAE. Here AROS has the edge. OS4 and MOS both have to run an UAE emulator instance detached from the system, pretty much in the same way as when emulating real Amigas on Windows or Mac OS X. It sits in its own window, replicating the screen of the emulated Amiga, and does not interact with the host operating system.
AROS, on the other hand, has something called Janus-UAE, which allows all the Amiga chipset dependent software to be integrated into the system pretty much in the same way as with Petunia or Trance. That is, the HW banging software can use native AROS windows and screens, it can use AROS skins/decorations/gadgets on the 68k software, it can share the clipboard with AROS, screendrag etc. It is integrated in the same ways as modern Virtual Machine software uses "coherence" mode with the host operating system. It is a very cool solution, and maybe OS4 and MOS will get something like it in the future too.
So, I think you have to rethink your stance on "emulation", "compatible" and "NEVER". I am very happy that you are interested in the Natami project, though. :)
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Aghh, that's just the eye candy. I'm not a big fan of it either so I turn it off unless I'm showing it off to a friend that depends on Eye candy in order to enjoy their OS experience. It makes me feel like I'm treating MorphOS like a cheap whore. :/
Guess I'm not really being fair on MorphOS with some of my comments about it (but then who said anything in life is fair)... ;)
I think, no in fact I KNOW my views about MorphOS have been tainted by that broken down android made from abandoned PC parts they call Piru who's about as humourless as being asked to step into the showers at Belsen... :)
So I'll lay off dissing MorphOS as I have said my only experience of it was a very old version that runs on my A1200 & BlizzardPPC and that put me off it right from the start but Piru just put me of it for being Piru... ;)
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I do agree that MOS is currently the best Amiga-like OS...
It looks the best, it's the most stable one, the only that *could* support things like SMP and memory protection out of the box. However, hardware future is uncertain, it's closed development and QBox development has been abandoned/delayed. That's why I chose AROS even if MOS is much more advanced.
If MOS would be able to run on ARM or x86 devices then it would be a different matter alltogether.
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WolftoMoon: I was just about to say something about ARM. That would be the wisest of moves the MorphOS team could make right now, at least as far as I can see. Heck even the next version of Windows is going to run on it. I'd say it's here to stay and the future of x86 is perhaps coming to a close...
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I am sorry, but you are just wrong on so many levels.
And so are you.
Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.
Now, AROS also has a "transparent emulator" project going on, called Emumiga. It is not done yet, but to say that it never will happen is wrong. When it is done, AROS will have exactly the same transparent emulation capabilities as OS4 and MOS, if not better.
I haven't seen much progress from this project lately. The project has seen several refactoring/rewrite cycles already and so far hasn't actually run much 68k apps. Latest download release is from 1 year ago. I wouldn't go as far as to predict that the project is in trouble, but it certainly doesn't seem to be progressing well.
AROS, on the other hand, has something called Janus-UAE, which allows all the Amiga chipset dependent software to be integrated into the system pretty much in the same way as with Petunia or Trance.
Neither Petunia nor Trance do any kind of integration, they're just JIT engines. Janus-UAE doesn't do what OS4 and MorphOS do, far from it. Janus-UAE's integration is very limited whereas OS4 and MorphOS do no integration at all: Everything runs natively inside the host OS. No integration is required. Janus-UAE can never be as complete as running the app directly on the host.
It is a very cool solution, and maybe OS4 and MOS will get something like it in the future too.
Personally I doubt it. There are very few applications that both hit HW and would still benefit from using native screens or windows.
Of course if someone feels like creating such UAE for MorphOS or OS4, sure go ahead. Personally I don't see the point in that though.
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I had a feeling you would be posting soon. :)
And yes, considering the amount of productivity apps that run without emulation on MorphOS, an integration of UAE with the OS would seem pointless at this time.
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@ piru. You are not going to respond to Frankos personal attack on you? C'mon, you can't let him get away with that! :hammer:
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Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.
Neither Petunia nor Trance do any kind of integration, they're just JIT engines.
Ok, so you are picky with terms. So, lets replace every mention of Petunia and Trance in my post with "the functionality in MOS/OS4 that takes 68k code and translates it to PPC instructions". There, now you do not have much left to reply to. It is still an emulator.
How "complete" it feels to the end user would be very much a subjective feeling depending on the individuals needs. I know for a fact that neither OS4 nor MOS feel complete enough for my preferences, since they cannot run the software I am used to running on my classics without obnoxious E-UAE instances. This works much better in AROS, where the emulator runs hidden in the background while still providing all functionality of a regular instance of E-UAE.
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And so are you.
Trance and Petunia are just JIT translators. Both MorphOS and OS4 can run 68k apps just fine without Petunia or Trance respectively.
How? I understand the transparent API calls, but how do you run 68k apps without emulating a 68k CPU? Are you suggesting PPC CPUs can understand 68k opcodes without translation?
I haven't seen much progress from this project lately. The project has seen several refactoring/rewrite cycles already and so far hasn't actually run much 68k apps. Latest download release is from 1 year ago. I wouldn't go as far as to predict that the project is in trouble, but it certainly doesn't seem to be progressing well.
Last post from the Emumiga blog was on 15th May, i.e. 6 days ago.
http://emumiga.com/
Who cares if there have been some challenges along the way, as long as it's still being worked on then it will get there, there's no technical reason I know of that means it won't work.
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How?
Both have integrated interpretive 68k emulation.
Last post from the Emumiga blog was on 15th May, i.e. 6 days ago.
http://emumiga.com/
Yeah, but it would be more interesting to hear about the progress of the emumiga itself rather than about installing ubuntu.
Who cares if there have been some challenges along the way, as long as it's still being worked on then it will get there
The thing is, there are rather huge challenges ahead. As described by the author himself:
The procedure of setting upp mirrors between virtual memory and the
AROS memory seems really easy to do, but it requires a lot of logic to
make it running and there are many pitfalls.
For simple data structures it is quite easy, as the only concern is to
convert between endian formats. Structures with pointers requires
more work, as the structures pointed out must also be mirrored. The
pointer in the virtual memory structure must be a valid virtual memory
address, and in the AROS structure it must be a valid AROS memory
address.
Add to this that structures may contain other substructures and/or
itself be part of a bigger structure, that some pointers has the type
APTR or "void *" so we don't know what is pointed out, that structures
can be declared as local variables in C and thus get put in stack
memory, that memory will be unallocated or reused as something else...
This gets rather messy as soon as the amiga app (emulation side) wants to poke the structures. This does happen quite a lot. Also, I can think of several cases where the emulation could lead to a deadlock situations, especially if the messaging / waiting for response scheme is implemented as described.
Also, I'd be very interested to hear how this method will handle objects being added to system from the emulation side? For example: opening a 68k library/device/resource inside the emulation: How can this system prevent the library from being added to LibList to the AROS side as well? (Since there is no way that emuamiga could possibly support every possible library/device/resource out there, it must allow loading up 68k only components on the emulation side. Since these components are unknown beforehand there is no way emuamiga can know how to set up translation between the structures being used, nor can they be mapped to AROS equivalents). How will AddPort and the likes be implemented? How will the messaging between the emulation and the native AROS be handled?
there's no technical reason I know of that means it won't work.
That remains to be seen. There sure are challenges getting the described method to work correctly.
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I voted OS4 because it looks like it needed a bit more support in the poll. (Being a new OS4 owner)
However, in all truth, AROS is the way forward IMO, if nothing else than because it's open-source. Targetting x86 helps make it accessible also.
Do you run OS4 on your A1200 060/PPC with Mediator PCI busboard/Voodoo graphic card and SoundBlaster audio card? And you also can run OS3.9 with this system config? (awesome A1200 BTW!)
I am planning on doing a similar upgrade on my A1200, but I don't have a PPC accelerator. So I'm wondering if I will still be able to run OS3.9 (and OS4) using a PC accelerator through Mediator also? I've only just started checking into this Mediator upgrade possibility. It sounds like awesome upgrade potential, but I might not yet understand how this works correctly.
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Both have integrated interpretive 68k emulation.
So in other words, MorphOS and OS4 are just as dependant on emulation as AROS. The method of integration might be different, but the use of emulation is still there. Do wish you wouldn't try misleading people on this, Trance and Petunia might be just the names for the JIT interpreters but considering the context Forcie was clearly trying to get across that MorphOS and OS4 use emulation too, which is clearly true by your own admission.
That remains to be seen. There sure are challenges getting the described method to work correctly.
There are challenges in any development, especially when implementing something fairly new. Let's remind ourselves of what Emumiga sets out to accomplish:
Emumiga is a Motorola MC68000 emulator and a system interface proxy for AROS. Our goal is to run AmigaOS 3.x applications directly in AROS without emulating the Amiga chipset and without any 68000 Kickstart ROM.
http://emumiga.com/about/
Sounds similar to the transparent API calls that are used in OS4 and MorphOS to me. Are you saying that something that already exists on OS4 and MorphOS is impossible to implement in AROS, and if you are saying this why do you believe it?
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Sounds similar to the transparent API calls that are used in OS4 and MorphOS to me. Are you saying that something that already exists on OS4 and MorphOS is impossible to implement in AROS, and if you are saying this why do you believe it?
But EmuAmiga has to deal with the endianess issue. Structures on the host (on x86 & co, anyway) are littleendian while the emulation side deals with bigendian structures.
Since all the amiga applications peek/poke in system structures, this adds quite some challenge compared to MorphOS/OS. EmuAmiga tries to resolve this in its way, but it's certainly not trivial at all, and it has to be seen if it can even work properly for real world applications (but just read what piru pasted from the author himself, it describes it much better).
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But EmuAmiga has to deal with the endianess issue. Structures on the host (on x86 & co, anyway) are littleendian while the emulation side deals with bigendian structures.
Since all the amiga applications peek/poke in system structures, this adds quite some challenge compared to MorphOS/OS. EmuAmiga tries to resolve this in its way, but it's certainly not trivial at all, and it has to be seen if it can even work properly for real world applications (but just read what piru pasted from the author himself, it describes it much better).
What the author will be looking for is the most elegant way to solve the endianness issue. 68k apps already run on x86 in emulation, the only question is how little emulation is required. Even if the endianness issue is not solved then the author can at least achieve feature parity with MorphOS and OS4 on any big endian arch that AROS supports (PPC, ARM in big endian mode).
At this stage with Emumiga, we already have a coded proof of concept (Amiga clock). The developer is currently refining his development environment and coding approach (chose to switch to C++ for example). After the development environment is stable I imagine we'll see more work being done on researching the best emulation approach for Emumiga to take. Your questions will be answered then.
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But EmuAmiga has to deal with the endianess issue. Structures on the host (on x86 & co, anyway) are littleendian while the emulation side deals with bigendian structures.
Not only that, but the structures themselves are different: Different alignment, different data types, sometimes different order for the fields, or some missing/extranous fields.
As I see it there is no way for the emuamiga to expose emulated resources to AROS side unless if it knows how to translate between the structures. The only way to handle this would be to present different views of the system resources to the emulation and the host system. But doing this would add inconsistency (for example ln_Succ in various lists would be different if some nodes were to be skipped. Just think of a library expunge function performing inlined Remove() on the library node...), and I frankly can't image any way to handle this in a way that would be safe, or that would even work consistently.
I've also wondered how the changes in the host system will get propagated to the emulation side: As far as I can tell any change in the host environment must appear immediately on the emuamiga side as well. As I see it this would require hooking all possible host operation that might change any of the objects currently mapped between the emulation and the host. Alternatively every memory access in the emulation would need to go thru code that does translation as needed.
These are just simple examples I could come up. In reality things get much more complex.
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Even if the endianness issue is not solved then the author can at least achieve feature parity with MorphOS and OS4 on any big endian arch that AROS supports (PPC, ARM in big endian mode).
Nope. See my previous post.
At this stage with Emumiga, we already have a coded proof of concept (Amiga clock).
Amiga clock is trivial and isolated application. The only interface it has is a window. Real life applications are much more complex and interact with the host environment in various complex ways.
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But Amiga clock is the program most die hard Amiga users use the most. What else could we possibly need support for?
Bottom line for this discussion. MorphOS works now, and is very affordable. EmuAmiga and all this this speculation about what AROS will grow into...
...is still something in the future, and judging by it's record of slow development, a long way off.
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Nope. See my previous post.
Eh? If these issues are so insurmountable how does MorphOS get around them? Anything that MorphOS can do on big endian machines, AROS will be able to do on big endian machines, end of. The question is, how much can the isolated emulation be stripped away on little endian machines. Those questions are as yet unanswered, but even if some emulation overhead can be removed then the effort will still be worth it.
Amiga clock is trivial and isolated application. The only interface it has is a window. Real life applications are much more complex and interact with the host environment in various complex ways.
Of course it's trivial, it's just a simple program. I respect that more complex programs will present new challenges, but let's see what can be done. If new features are discovered they can always be copied by other Amiga platforms if the core developers choose to do so.
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Eh? If these issues are so insurmountable how does MorphOS get around them?
MorphOS has binary compatible structures (same endianity, same padding etc). PPC and 68k see exactly the same OS resources. There are of course numerous extensions and new functions but they were created carefully in order to maintain backwards compatibility.
Anything that MorphOS can do on big endian machines, AROS will be able to do on big endian machines, end of.
Last I heard AROS is not interested in full binary compatibility on big endian systems other than 68k. Even if such compatibility would be added you'd still need to add the CPU emulation and the required infrastructure (it's somewhat different from what emuamiga is doing). It certainly is possible but quite some work (aros 68k effort is a good start).
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Last I heard AROS is not interested in full binary compatibility on big endian systems other than 68k. Even if such compatibility would be added you'd still need to add the CPU emulation and the required infrastructure.
AROS developers are free to work on whatever they want, provided they don't interfere with the goals of the project (at which point a fork is necessary). Seeing as the goals of AROS do not rule out developments like Emumiga then they are free to continue. I'm surprised I have to explain this to someone of your supposed intelligence.
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I'm surprised I have to explain this to someone of your supposed intelligence.
I'm surprised you thought you needed to.
While it certainly is possible to replicate MorphOS kind of emulation on big endian systems, emuamiga isn't it (even when running on big endian systems).
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I voted Aros after reading what everyone was saying about it but when I wen to its source forge page, they barely mention using it on classic hardware. Where can I find info about the AROS ROMs and "Amiga Classic" specific stuff?
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Not to be much of a blue troll, but I am surprised that OS 4.1 is slightly ahead of morphOS.
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I always like the Amithlon big-endian-memory-model for 68K emulation on little endian architectures. For x86 you will naturally lose some performance doing the byteswap for every 16/32/64-bit access (although emulation various memory to memory moves would not need it) but you have such a huge performance starting point (especially now) that I'm quite sure it would outperform currently available PPC-based amiga compatible systems.
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I'm surprised you thought you needed to.
While it certainly is possible to replicate MorphOS kind of emulation on big endian systems, emuamiga isn't it (even when running on big endian systems).
Hi,
@Piru,
Excuse me for asking, but are you one of the programmers for morphos?
I seem to be a little ignorant on these issues?
If you are do you have a morphos that runs on the AGA chipset?
Once again, even thought I knock down most programs like AROS, MorphOs and Natamie I realize that most of these programmers do it during there spare time and have taken on a huge effort, so, I think I and the Amiga community should give these guys a big hand and I wish I only had the time and the knowledge to program as these people. Some times I think I see a really wasted effort because of not using the modern day CPU's, but one thing I have come down to the conclusion of is that many of these projects have started many years ago when PPC chips where the in thing, and many Amiga owners (including myself) did not want to see an Intel chip anywhere near the Amiga scene.
SO
even though I really hate to admit it
Keep on programming
All of us in the Amiga Community should give you all a big hand for the alternative methods that we are seeing.
I just hate MorphOS because
Sometimes I feel like a MAC, Sometimes I don't.
My whole thing with Apple is that Steve Jobs is a total egotistical bratstard that I will never work for again. Its either his way or the highway, or he will hold temper tantrums and go off crying in his office.
smerf
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Hi,
@Piru,
Excuse me for asking, but are you one of the programmers for morphos?
Yes, since year 2000 or so.
If you are do you have a morphos that runs on the AGA chipset?
Nope. MorphOS has always required a graphics card. See here for some information about supported HW: http://powerup.morphos-team.net/
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I voted Aros after reading what everyone was saying about it but when I wen to its source forge page, they barely mention using it on classic hardware. Where can I find info about the AROS ROMs and "Amiga Classic" specific stuff?
Try here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/68k_support
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Hi,
@Piru,
Thanks for the information, always did respect you and your posting, now I am really going to have to think, do I want to upgrade the Amiga 1200 to a graphics card set which would probably set me back about $500, or do I want to swallow my pride and buy a G4 mini mac for about $250. Really want to see what MorphOs is about. Well got to do some heavy thinking.
smerf
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Hi,
@Piru,
Thanks for the information, always did respect you and your posting, now I am really going to have to think, do I want to upgrade the Amiga 1200 to a graphics card set which would probably set me back about $500
Considering we no longer support the classic amiga version (and it isn't possible to register it), I wouldn't recommend this option. Oh, Mac mini G4 is something like >10x faster too.
or do I want to swallow my pride and buy a G4 mini mac for about $250. Really want to see what MorphOs is about. Well got to do some heavy thinking.
No relatives or friends with a supported mac? You could safely boot those machines from the MorphOS CD to give it a try (no need to install anything, it works as a livecd then).
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I voted Aros after reading what everyone was saying about it but when I wen to its source forge page, they barely mention using it on classic hardware. Where can I find info about the AROS ROMs and "Amiga Classic" specific stuff?
ive posted a short instruction how to run an aros68k nightly on amiga earlier this thread. note that things get broken every once in a while which seems currently be the case.
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(Since there is no way that emuamiga could possibly support every possible library/device/resource out there, it must allow loading up 68k only components on the emulation side. Since these components are unknown beforehand there is no way emuamiga can know how to set up translation between the structures being used, nor can they be mapped to AROS equivalents).
No, but it can support every known one, and since the set of m68k software is fairly static I doubt that will be that much of a problem as long as a smart method of defining translation mappings for new libraries is added.
A lot of things that are "impossible" for the general case are fairly manageable for the restricted case of handling a, for most intents and purposes, mostly unchanging set.
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Not to be much of a blue troll, but I am surprised that OS 4.1 is slightly ahead of morphOS.
Not many MorphOS users visit here, not as many as the OS4.x crowd.
Edit: Plus, even though I think that MorphOS is the best choice for now and the near future, I voted for AROS as the best way for a long term future. Maybe some other MorphOS users did the same, instead of making this just another popular vote contest.
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MorphOS is way ahead of any and all of the competition in the Amiga field.
And of course you yourself are way ahead of all other users, which is why you use it, right?
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Not many MorphOS users visit here, not as many as the OS4.x crowd.
Edit: Plus, even though I think that MorphOS is the best choice for now and the near future, I voted for AROS as the best way for a long term future. Maybe some other MorphOS users did the same, instead of making this just another popular vote contest.
I didn't think of it being just a popular vote and from most of the reply's it would seem folk have given their reasons for the way they voted... :)
It would be kinda interesting to know between this poll and Amigadave's poll of "How long you have been using Amiga computers" just if peoples age or length of time being an Amiga user affects just how they voted for whichever OS in this poll... :)
As Amigadaves poll shows so far that around 68% of voters have been using Amigas for over 20 years and 50% of voters in this poll have so far voted AROS... :)
I know it isn't accurate by a long shot but from these results you could draw the conclusion that it seems to be long time Amiga users that favour AROS and that those newer to the Amiga scene (if you can call users of less than 20 years newbies) more in favour of OS4.X or MorphOS... :)
Don't suppose there is any real way one could draw any accurate figures from both polls to reflect this, perhaps someone could come up with a better poll that could combine the two and see if age & length of time being an Amiga user has an effect on which OS system a person would choose... :)
I dunno why but I've always had the idea that older and long term users would have chosen MorphOS and newer and younger users would have chosen AROS or OS4.X... :)
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Amiga clock is trivial and isolated application. The only interface it has is a window. Real life applications are much more complex and interact with the host environment in various complex ways.
You can´t expect the EmuAmiga guys to have a full working version when they are just starting out. If they keep at it, they will have a much better situation then e.g. the WINE-team because they already have source compatibitly. Compared to a Windows-ABI their job is indeed closer to the trivial side. It will take time though and the other guys are definitely ahead on this one.
Well if 30% of the Amiga-apps face a deadlock in version 1.0 of EmuAmiga version it is still a great step forward compared to having just UAE. If they get DeluxePaint working in 2.0 I´d be pretty impressed, but not surprised.
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I voted AROS for the open source reason as well. My worry is that MorphOS will drift into "Who owns it?" hell just like the original software if the Morph team ever drifts apart (which is always a possibility) and AOS4.1 is already firmly rooted in the same BS that plagues the original OSes. Bloodline said it best. AROS is an Amiga environment for whatever hardware you make run on it. And now with the integrated AmigaForever deal, its pretty durn transparent.
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Try here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/68k_support
Thanks Piru! :cool:
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My my, aren't these results interesting. It should certainly give pause to any Amiga related business out there.
Business decision making is either tactical or strategic, and businesses with the right kind of people behind them know when to use which. Furthermore, they know how to align the tactical with the strategic and find the right balance.
The Morphos team's tactical move to leverage used PPC G4 hardware is hopefully balanced with a strategic move they have yet to share with us. But the tactical move is sound. A roadmap covering the next 3-5 years would see increased take-up.
To assist in tactical decision making businesses often reach out to the consumer to get a "temperature reading". But it doesn't pay to reach out to the consumer when looking at the strategic decisions. As Henry Ford has been quoted "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said ‘a faster horse’".
Economics can't be ignored, if Ford had built a faster horse with 2HP but 4x the price of a 1HP horse, we'd be quoting somebody else.
If I were considering a foray into the Amiga business landscape, I would conduct this very poll and adjust my tactical and strategic plans accordingly. For me, these results show that the Amiga community is interested in a lot more than just "a faster horse".
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Since Aros is at 50%, what do we do now?
It seems that documenation, application creation, os programming are the high-lights.
Edit
Did we just vote on something?
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I still think Aros68K is the most important piece of the Aros puzzle right now. Not only will it allow for brand new, fully functional 'classic' amigas, it will allow the "NG" Amiga running on whatever hardware it gets ported to, to be backward compatible with the 'classic' Amiga's via emulation right out of the box.
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You can´t expect the EmuAmiga guys to have a full working version when they are just starting out. If they keep at it, they will have a much better situation then e.g. the WINE-team because they already have source compatibitly. Compared to a Windows-ABI their job is indeed closer to the trivial side. It will take time though and the other guys are definitely ahead on this one.
a) Wine only works on x86-systems (endians being just one reason)
b) source code compability is actually a problem as it's even harder to keep both APIs seperate (don't expect a Win-app directly calling a Linux-function or a linux-app directly accessing a Win-DLL)
c) if an API is tightly defined and constructed with endians in mind it's "trivial" (like with Rosetta in OSX) if it's just ancient stuff rushed onto one very specific CPU and HW leaving lots of functionality to app-devlopers poking around in structures it becomes impossible.
For it to work it would need to have EVERY system-structure twice in memory both appearing at the same address (possible with MMU) for x86 and 68k. Both closely monitored for changes (also possible with MMU).
O.k. thats allready messy, but you would also know every 3rd party structures that may be shared between x86 and 68k at any point. Thats were we go into impossible.
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So ya, give it ten years or more and it might be somewhat caught up with MorphOS in terms of compatability.
In the mean time, polish off the native Amiga port, and we'll have our self freely available Amiga boot disks for use to format hard drives, perform repairs to our Work Bench installs, etc. It could be the new Amiga 911 disk base. Wouldn't it?
See, every port has it's use. :)
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As Amigadaves poll shows so far that around 68% of voters have been using Amigas for over 20 years and 50% of voters in this poll have so far voted AROS... :)
50% for AROS is quite surprising but as I see there is large opportunity for AROS. It is likely that AROS is going to replace AmigaOS in high end 68k systems including WinUAE. Maybe it is what users are expecting from the future.
Tho, it is not necessarily the future. In the past OS4 was always leading whatever polls with AROS always having the last position somewhere. If the past polls were true there would be 5000 OS4 users, 500 MorphOS users and 0.0001 AROS users.
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i might be wrong but i think it represents the degree of frustration with os4 politics and progress. i expect mos users vote loyal to their os, also obviously no os3.x option is available. i think it explains a lot. for me aros wasnt relevant much before aros68k. today its completely different story.
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Hi,
@Piru,
Thanks for the information, always did respect you and your posting, now I am really going to have to think, do I want to upgrade the Amiga 1200 to a graphics card set which would probably set me back about $500, or do I want to swallow my pride and buy a G4 mini mac for about $250. Really want to see what MorphOs is about. Well got to do some heavy thinking.
smerf
Wow, I guess have to apologize about the Troll commemts. Powermacs are generally less expensive than the Mac Mini and more expandable. If you need anything (like a USB2.0 card, sound card, or re-flashrf video card) send me a PM.
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I voted Pancakes. My opinion is that no new Amiga OS will be the best way forward. All have their place and followers but none of them will replace modern OSes.
You use a modern OS to do new stuff and use Amiga OS and Alternates to do "alternate" stuff.
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The trouble is we need to actually have a new Amiga. And as the choices so far are PC+UAE a la C= USA or really expensive and low value for money under-performing PPC chips what do we do.
I personally have accepted there will never be a new Amiga, so that leaves Amiga compatibles and that's that. And because of that I don't really care to be honest as the only answer is a complete X86-64 rewrite of everything.....so in other words forget overpriced PPC MOS and OS4 options so a supercharged AROS I guess.
But for me Amiga ONLY equals the machines Commodore made 1985-1994. And therefore the best OS for Amiga is actually the one supplied by Commodore.
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I personally have accepted there will never be a new Amiga, so that leaves Amiga compatibles and that's that. And because of that I don't really care to be honest as the only answer is a complete X86-64 rewrite of everything.....so in other words forget overpriced PPC MOS and OS4 options so a supercharged AROS I guess.
I don't think that's even remotely the only answer. It's still possible that someone could come up with a more reasonable PPC-based system - it's not like the architecture is dead, it's just in a rough patch for consumer computing - but it's still holding its own in the supercomputer market, and more relevantly, in the console market. Who's to say it doesn't make a bit of a resurgence as far as cost-effectiveness goes?
There's also ARM, which is kicking more ass than ever before now that it's become the architecture of choice for mobile computing of any variety - it's already obliterated the competition in the mobile-phone and tablet markets, there's a few netbooks out there sporting it, and Apple's apparently moving its laptop line over (and quite possibly its desktops, who knows?) Even Microsoft is getting in on the act - and not just for mobile platforms. You could do a lot worse for a new AROS machine than a Tegra board, that's for sure.
And there's also the Amiga clone-upgrade projects - sure, Natami isn't going to be as inexpensive as an ARM system, but for those of us who really like the 68k, it's quite promising - and FPGA Arcade looks pretty encouraging, too. So no, x86 is hardly the only choice. And frankly, if most of the platforms still using it are the PCs that need it for compatibility (and even the one PC OS where that's a factor is exploring other avenues,) then it looks like x86 might very well be on the way to becoming legacy hardware itself, barring another change in the winds.
(That said, I do agree that OS4 is a dead end - Hyperion obviously have very little clue about even the market they're targeting, if their definition of "classic Amigas" is "classic Amigas with a PPC board." How many of us even have such a setup? At least MorphOS can be assed to make their OS run on more than that very particular subset of system configurations.)
But for me Amiga ONLY equals the machines Commodore made 1985-1994. And therefore the best OS for Amiga is actually the one supplied by Commodore.
I'm with you there, although I'd count NatAmi and FPGA Arcade if they turn out to be what they're looking to be. But I don't begrudge people who want a more powerful system running an Amiga-like OS.
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I voted Pancakes. My opinion is that no new Amiga OS will be the best way forward. All have their place and followers but none of them will replace modern OSes.
You use a modern OS to do new stuff and use Amiga OS and Alternates to do "alternate" stuff.
right. this sums it up as well for me.
but still if one choose to mess with "amiga" not only for the sake of few old games, aros guarantees to be most fun about it. it is open to everybody. contrary to os4 and mos you are not being supplied (or not) with a product once in a while, you can literally watch it grow or contribute yourself, and be sure this contribution is not going to be sunk into some inaccessible closed source that might even completely disappear some day.
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@wawrzon
you can literally watch it grow or contribute yourself
That is the key of the contribution for me, see AROS grow and be part of its growth contributing in some way :) you have hardly that feeling using the commercial OSes
Saimon69
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@Most MOS users
I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. It's sad and shocking to say the least. I mean you really hate Hyperion for writing AOS 4....... you play their games but hey, don't write AmigaOS 4 :-S . You can't write a single nice (and true) word about it. You allways clame any AmigaOS 4 user to worship it as a religion even though you only find that behaviour when reading the cocky comments from MOS users. Not only do you sound like your opinion is the only one that will ever matter and anyone who are against it are a morron but you also spend hours and hours talking crap about AmigaOS 4 which I'm sure many of you haven't even used or haven't used in years. That's as close minded as one can get.
You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.
I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.
IMO (like verything else that I write is) it could perhaps be better and way more healthy to use that agression elsewhere. Pick up a sport, use wii fit, run.
There are exceptions offcourse but those people won't be offended by this either. Anyway the rest of you who spend times writing crap in every forum that exists, youtube and what not... get a life and go see a shring or something. Grow up. Get mature.
Might seem harsh but compared to the crap that I read from the MOS community this is sweet talking.
Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.
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@Most MOS users
I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. It's sad and shocking to say the least. I mean you really hate Hyperion for writing AOS 4....... you play their games but hey, don't write AmigaOS 4 :-S . You can't write a single nice (and true) word about it. You allways clame any AmigaOS 4 user to worship it as a religion even though you only find that behaviour when reading the cocky comments from MOS users. Not only do you sound like your opinion is the only one that will ever matter and anyone who are against it are a morron but you also spend hours and hours talking crap about AmigaOS 4 which I'm sure many of you haven't even used or haven't used in years. That's as close minded as one can get.
You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.
I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.
IMO (like verything else that I write is) it could perhaps be better and way more healthy to use that agression elsewhere. Pick up a sport, use wii fit, run.
There are exceptions offcourse but those people won't be offended by this either. Anyway the rest of you who spend times writing crap in every forum that exists, youtube and what not... get a life and go see a shring or something. Grow up. Get mature.
Might seem harsh but compared to the crap that I read from the MOS community this is sweet talking.
Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.
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For it to work it would need to have EVERY system-structure twice in memory both appearing at the same address (possible with MMU) for x86 and 68k. Both closely monitored for changes (also possible with MMU).
You are forgetting that we are running under CPU emulation anyways, so you don't actually need any real MMU. You will end up duplicating all structures, but this is just part of your interface. Everything you don't interface to has to run in emulation as well.
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You are forgetting that we are running under CPU emulation anyways, so you don't actually need any real MMU. You will end up duplicating all structures, but this is just part of your interface. Everything you don't interface to has to run in emulation as well.
And how it will work with 3rd party libraries and classes? If I install 3rd party 68k native UI class to system how little endian application is going to access its structures?
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@Most MOS users
I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. It's sad and shocking to say the least. I mean you really hate Hyperion for writing AOS 4....... you play their games but hey, don't write AmigaOS 4 :-S . You can't write a single nice (and true) word about it. You allways clame any AmigaOS 4 user to worship it as a religion even though you only find that behaviour when reading the cocky comments from MOS users. Not only do you sound like your opinion is the only one that will ever matter and anyone who are against it are a morron but you also spend hours and hours talking crap about AmigaOS 4 which I'm sure many of you haven't even used or haven't used in years. That's as close minded as one can get.
You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.
I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.
IMO (like verything else that I write is) it could perhaps be better and way more healthy to use that agression elsewhere. Pick up a sport, use wii fit, run.
There are exceptions offcourse but those people won't be offended by this either. Anyway the rest of you who spend times writing crap in every forum that exists, youtube and what not... get a life and go see a shring or something. Grow up. Get mature.
Might seem harsh but compared to the crap that I read from the MOS community this is sweet talking.
Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.
You are way off base HotRod! From what I have seen over the last 4 years that I have been following the MorphOS information and users, it has been ten times more AmigaOS4.x users that constantly put down MorphOS and keep saying it has nothing to do with anything "Amiga". What the AmigaOS4.x users can't stand is any criticism or comparison, because MorphOS is just plain better. It has been under development longer and chose better components to start with. Some AmigaOS4.x users just can't stand to read those facts and those are the people that have started 90% of the fighting between the two groups over the 4 years I have been watching. From what I have seen, the MorphOS users and developers have only defended themselves from lies told (like yours) that have been written about MorphOS and it's users/developers. Of course, like in all things, there are good and bad on all sides and I won't deny that there are a few bad apples on the MorphOS side that have stirred up trouble from time to time, but over the 4 years that I have been watching this fight, it has been the AmigaOS4.x "bad apples" that have started most of the "crap" as you put it, just like this post of yours that was uncalled for and completely un-necessary.
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@amigadave
I would very much like to know WHERE you read this because I read this site, amigaworld.net, amigans.net, watch clips at youtube (even about mos, everything amiga-related actually) and have done so ever since those sites opened, more or less every day except for vaccations. I'm also on several mailinglists since they became available and not once have I read amigaos 4 users bad mouthing mos in that degree, not even close. Actually I can't even remember reading anything like it even once and surely I should've seen SOME comment during all those years.
If you read this very thread for example do you see MOS users defending themselves or MOS users being harsh against AOS 4?
Unless I see one example of what you're writing I won't believe it. Seeing that there are all kinds of users here and at amigaworld.net I'm sure that I would've seen it but I haven't, neither on any of the mailinglists that I'm on.
I suggest that you take a look around, open your eyes and maybe the reality will show itself.
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@ Hotrod. Amigadave is right. I have only been on Amiga.org since last September and even i now about the red camp vs blue camp feud. If you have been an active member since 2002 then surely you must have witnessed the famous red vs blue flame wars :confused:
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It's good to see AROS finally getting so popular as it deserves. The efforts to bring an Amiga-like-OS alive that can run on almost any architecture is huge and difficult, but it's giving its own frutis in the end. The road is still long but we're at a good point now.
@Piru: take it easy. MorphOS is a great operating system, and after all we are all putting our efforts in something we believe in. Fighting about terminology is quite pointless and what really matters are the results: MOS can nicely run old apps natively, but Janus integration is just enough for many people. Emuamiga is a very difficult task, but I guess the required skill level is just another factor that makes it interesting/amazing from a technical point of view, and a greater satisfaction for everyone (coders and users) when it will eventually work for everyone. Pointing out why you consider unliklely its completion is pretty unelegant, and does not respect who is trying to make it happen.
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@Kesa
I think the answer is in what I wrote, that is honestly my experience. There can be a threat about something OS 4 related and out of nowhere comes some MOS user and starts trolling and start a flame war.
Also I can tell you that you're diging your own grave by behaving like that. If a new user visits a site like this and all they read are desperate and cocky comments about how superior MOS is compared to everything else do you REALLY think that they will buy MOS? I would emidiatly wonder why people behaves like that because it sounds like you're trying to trick people into buying something. It doesn't sound very serious at all. Those who act like that can't be very secure.
Also I can actually understan if someone from the OS 4 side gets tired and write something insulting because it's really easy to insult you. Say one bad thing about MOS, even if it's true and there will be like 10 people going nuts, and I mean completely nuts. That's what I've seen. It sounds like they would hur you bad if they could. Now I have NEVER seen that behaviour anywhere else, be it OS 4 users, AROS users, classic users, Windblows users, Linux users or even Mac users.
And no I really don't think that is sane at all.
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@HotRod,
You have got to be joking! All of the behavior you are describing is exactly what I have seen from the insanely jealous AmigaOS4.x users, not the MorphOS2.x users that have no reason to be jealous of AmigaOS4.x.
It is apparent that you are just being sarcastic, or trying to start a real fight, so this is my last reply to you as I won't see your posts anymore after adding you to my "ignore" list.
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I have to agree with what some of HotRod is saying there... There are some users on both "sides" who tend to make a lot of noise and sling thinly-veiled insults, and a majority who just use their choice of platform and are happy with that. Neither side can claim the moral high ground there. And to be honest, it's really quite tiring at this stage, even though it's calmed down a lot.
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@Kesa
I think the answer is in what I wrote, that is honestly my experience. There can be a threat about something OS 4 related and out of nowhere comes some MOS user and starts trolling and start a flame war.
Also I can tell you that you're diging your own grave by behaving like that. If a new user visits a site like this and all they read are desperate and cocky comments about how superior MOS is compared to everything else do you REALLY think that they will buy MOS? I would emidiatly wonder why people behaves like that because it sounds like you're trying to trick people into buying something. It doesn't sound very serious at all. Those who act like that can't be very secure.
Also I can actually understan if someone from the OS 4 side gets tired and write something insulting because it's really easy to insult you. Say one bad thing about MOS, even if it's true and there will be like 10 people going nuts, and I mean completely nuts. That's what I've seen. It sounds like they would hur you bad if they could. Now I have NEVER seen that behaviour anywhere else, be it OS 4 users, AROS users, classic users, Windblows users, Linux users or even Mac users.
And no I really don't think that is sane at all.
Have to say I agree with you 100% on those sentiments, especially folk like Piru who seem to think that any criticism of MorphOS should be met with an obnoxious and just plain ignorant reply... ;)
Though I seriously doubt any of them could fight their way out of a wet paper bag let alone "hurt you bad"... :)
To me it's seems to be a case of over inflated ego's thinking that everyone in Amigaland should respect them and pat their ego's even if MorphOS is what you would consider nothing to do with your own choice of an Amiga OS... :)
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Franko it's true Piru does jump the gun really quickly when someone criticizes Morphos but i wouldn't call him obnoxious. Being a developer for Morphos he has a right to be proud of his work and that means he can get defensive if he wants to. For me the line between being obnoxious and proud are quite large. Both are similar but not the same :)
@Hotrod. I for the record sit neutral on the fence when it comes to ng Amigas. I can appreciate them both. The red camp being faithful to classic Amigas which is great for nostalgia and the blue camp trying to modernize Amigaos which is also fantastic. Each to their own i say :)
@Amigadave. Grow up. You "ignore" someone just because they don't agree with you? On forums when having a debate you can expect to receive a certain amount of banter. It would be really boring if everyone just agreed with you :)
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@HotRod,
You have got to be joking! All of the behavior you are describing is exactly what I have seen from the insanely jealous AmigaOS4.x users, not the MorphOS2.x users that have no reason to be jealous of AmigaOS4.x.
It is apparent that you are just being sarcastic, or trying to start a real fight, so this is my last reply to you as I won't see your posts anymore after adding you to my "ignore" list.
No I'm dead serious. Since both of us are probably visiting the same sites one of us must be lying, right? Still there's not much point in lying since those amiga users that are active also reads the very same sites.
Like I said, I haven't seen that behaviour anywhere else. There are news items about MOS a amigaworld.net every now and then and sometimes there are features that are better or exclusive to MOS and no I don't see some OS 4 user go nuts about that. Actually I see lots of congratulations from that side.
If you wonder I'm not on any "side", I really don't get that concept at all, I've just choosed AOS 4 because it felt right to me and I'm happy with it and I can asure you that I wouldn't act like that if I was using MOS either.
And if you want to digg even deeper I think this all began because of the bad behaviour from Amiga Inc and all that but now there are new users here that doesn't know about it very much or wasn't there when it happened but yeah, lets troll.
And even then Hyperion doesn't like Amiga Inc either so... really, what's going on? Why not just be happy with what you got like a normal user? I've never seen this behaviour anywhere and I stand by that.
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I use OS 4.1. I use MorphOS. Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry. If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late. Many of you taking sides have not done yourself the favor of trying everything available. I use an OS4/Morph/AROS machine daily, that being said.
We are hobby folks, using said OS's for fun. I like both Morph and OS4, but I am not delusional enough to think that they are "next gen" and are going to storm the market. No one buys a SAM to replace a Mac or PC, and same goes for MorphOS/legacy Macs. You use the things cause they "take you back", and they are fun. Quit pissing and moaning and picking nits. I own a SAM, a Mac mini running Morph, and an AROS box. End result - when I want to watch a youtube video quick, or check gmail - I grab my tablet. The market has shifted. The computers we grew up on, held dear and were extremely proud to know inside and out have been replaced by "appliance devices". People grab the best tool for the job.
A mantra, whether it be Amiga OS's variants or mac/win/linux stuff.
Use what you like. Use all you can. Know what works best for you, and also know that what works best for you likely doesn't work the best for the next guy. Have fun, and try and let the modern computer folks know that we didn't all wake up one day with 3ghz PC's. Respect your roots, and the roots of others.
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I use OS 4.1. I use MorphOS. Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry. If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late. Many of you taking sides have not done yourself the favor of trying everything available. I use an OS4/Morph/AROS machine daily, that being said.
We are hobby folks, using said OS's for fun. I like both Morph and OS4, but I am not delusional enough to think that they are "next gen" and are going to storm the market. No one buys a SAM to replace a Mac or PC, and same goes for MorphOS/legacy Macs. You use the things cause they "take you back", and they are fun. Quit pissing and moaning and picking nits. I own a SAM, a Mac mini running Morph, and an AROS box. End result - when I want to watch a youtube video quick, or check gmail - I grab my tablet. The market has shifted. The computers we grew up on, held dear and were extremely proud to know inside and out have been replaced by "appliance devices". People grab the best tool for the job.
A mantra, whether it be Amiga OS's variants or mac/win/linux stuff.
Use what you like. Use all you can. Know what works best for you, and also know that what works best for you likely doesn't work the best for the next guy. Have fun, and try and let the modern computer folks know that we didn't all wake up one day with 3ghz PC's. Respect your roots, and the roots of others.
While I can see your point of view on what you have just said, I always have to take issue with things like "hobby folks" & "People grab the best tool for the job"... ;)
You see the Amiga is the only computer I need (and always has been and always will be) for all aspects of computing from DTP to Games, from Audio to Programming and every other aspect for which I require a computer... :)
I (and maybe I'm the only one but I doubt it) don't require a modern computer or "appliance device" for any computing tasks. So the issue I have with statements such as yours is the way it alludes to everyone fitting into your bracket of requiring such things (a bit like people being under the illusion that EVERYONE uses a mobile phone)... :)
There are believe it or not still folk on this planet who through choice don't need nor want these "modern devices" and are perfectly happy with what in computer terms is ancient technology. So try to bear that in mind please when making such sweeping statements... :)
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You have a very valid point, Franko. Your needs are far different than mine, and yours are none less valid than mine. You use what you enjoy, and what works for you. Fact is, there's isn't an Amiga - be it a legacy Amiga, a SAM/A1/x1000, a MorphOS Mac, UAE, or a x86 box running AROS that would do what I require on a daily basis. My business requires more modern implementations, yet I still use OS4, Morph, AROS, and vanilla (legacy C=/A1200 hardware and WinUAE) on a very regular basis on my "off time". I respect anyone that uses any Amiga variant if it does what they require, and if they enjoy it. Christ, I still run an Amiga based BBS - not many people clinging on to "the good old days" worse than I am.
Point I was trying to illustrate, which you didn't miss in the least, Franko - was that the division between different "factions" of Amiga variant users/owners just goddamned stinks. Near 20 years after the demise of the "real" Amiga, we're still bickering about this bull$hit. You couldn't pay me to run legacy Amiga HW as my "main" Amiga. It frustrates me fiddling with old HW, and that's my personal issue, no offense to you collectors of old HW out there. Likewise - I couldn't pay you, Franko (or other "purists" - to swap your C= Amiga's and 64's for more modern implementations, or a UAE box. That's half the fun with this stuff - while it's not cheap in comparison to commodity PC and Mac HW, we got lots of options on OS's and HW. I hope everyone gets a chance to try all the variants.
Point being, despite everyone having their particular "flavor" of what they consider to be the "true Amiga", we're all on the same boat - and far too often we're simply trying to drill huge holes in said boat rather than sticking together and bailing water out of the boat as a whole. Watching the ship sink while attempting to bitch slap each other over semantics about a vintage HW and SW platform won't get anyone anywhere, and I in no way was wagging a finger at you specifically, Franko. The Amiga scene has ALWAYS had this weird polarization that drives the scene apart and into various "camps", it's not the 90's anymore: and we can't afford to do it anymore. And yes, I was there in the late 80's/early 90's in the heyday of the Amiga.
Just my 2 bits, anyways - not trying to start a pissing match here, lol. Just trying to illustrate the friction among the community has very harmful effects, just like it did in the old days.
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@ Duce
Don't get me wrong I wasn't disagreeing with everything you said, just pointing out that there are some folk still for whom the Amiga and older technology suit their needs just fine... :)
Where I'm in full agreement with you is that were all in the same boat and we're not only drilling huge holes in it, it would seem some folk are firing torpedoes at it from all sides... :(
I would have thought that all that kind of BS was well and truly in past but since going online just last summer I was amazed to find it was still going on and seems to be even worse these days... :(
Still at the end of the day one can easily walk away from the internet at anytime and leave all this nonsense behind for it to continue forever by those who for whatever reason choose to do so. It's a great shame to me that what is the best home computer system ever conceived should have it's legacy continually turned into a laughing stock to the rest of the computing world by folk who's only tenuous connection to it these days seem to be nothing more than putting it down at every chance they get... :(
Strange place Amigaland and I guess that will never change, but being an optimist I still hold a glimmer of hope that one day, maybe just one day it may just change for the better... :)
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Do you run OS4 on your A1200 060/PPC with Mediator PCI busboard/Voodoo graphic card and SoundBlaster audio card? And you also can run OS3.9 with this system config? (awesome A1200 BTW!)
Actually that's all this machine has run so far. OS3.9 works great, and from what I've read, is even more supportive of the hardware than OS4.1 will be.
I've already purchased a Radeon card to replace the voodoo and I'll have to get a new sound card for OS4.
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MorphOS seems to have moved quite far, and I wish them all the luck in the World, but AROS is the only real viable alternative for me.
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Actually that's all this machine has run so far. OS3.9 works great, and from what I've read, is even more supportive of the hardware than OS4.1 will be.
I've already purchased a Radeon card to replace the voodoo and I'll have to get a new sound card for OS4.
if you replace voodoo with radeon you will have to resign on warp3d on os3.9/68k side. there is no hardware accelerated w3d for radeon on 68k nor will there obviously be. the solution will be to leave both cards working in the machine, which i wasnt able to achieve up till now. or wait for some form of aros 68k support for classic pci, which might or might not happen.
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@aros supporters:
now, that aros unquestionably leads the way (at least on this site) how about to factually support the development where possible? im talking about testing and contributing, whatever you can think of. would be great to have it somewhere along the way to where mos currently is.
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MorphOS is just plain better. It has been under development longer and chose better components to start with. Some AmigaOS4.x users just can't stand to read those facts
They might have a different opinion. I simply don't care about MorphOS. I don't own the hardware to run it and neither the newer MUI nor Ambient look like something that would impress me much.
I guess in your terms I am already trolling for just stating that. I have found that classic, UAE, AROS and AmigaOS4 aren't as aggressive as the blue team. Just today somebody posted an Animation that was created to make fun about the red camp and it was neither funny nor informative. And here they are trying to demotivate AROS fans by claiming something can't be done which is actually technically feasible (a pattern I have seen more than once).
So, sorry folks, but you aren't playing fair.
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Franko it's true Piru does jump the gun really quickly when someone criticizes Morphos but i wouldn't call him obnoxious. Being a developer for Morphos he has a right to be proud of his work and that means he can get defensive if he wants to. For me the line between being obnoxious and proud are quite large. Both are similar but not the same :)
@Hotrod. I for the record sit neutral on the fence when it comes to ng Amigas. I can appreciate them both. The red camp being faithful to classic Amigas which is great for nostalgia and the blue camp trying to modernize Amigaos which is also fantastic. Each to their own i say :)
@Amigadave. Grow up. You "ignore" someone just because they don't agree with you? On forums when having a debate you can expect to receive a certain amount of banter. It would be really boring if everyone just agreed with you :)
Someone please point out to me in this thread where the mud slinging started and who started it.
I did not notice anything overtly offensive until HotRod threw in his offensive remarks about "Most MorphOS users", which I got defensive about, since I am one of those MorphOS users and I gave my truthful opinion about what I have observed here and elsewhere. It has nothing to do with me wanting HotRod to agree with everything I say or write. I don't expect the AmigaOS4.x users to agree with the choices that I have made, or my opinions about what is best, but performance numbers and feature count has favored MorphOS2.x above AmigaOS4.x and AROS forever. Those are hard cold facts and since the most obnoxious of the AmigaOS4.x users don't like those facts being pointed out on any forums, they usually resort to any other means to try to degrade MorphOS and call it names like children, because they have no other way to make themselves feel good about the choice they have made to use AmigaOS4.x instead of MorphOS2.x.
HotRod made it to my "ignore list" because he was writing complete crap and seems to actually believe it, or is just a troll, not because I disagree with his opinions and choices. I have lots of friends that use AmigaOS4.x and I have no problem with them and their choices. Re-read HotRod's first message in this thread and honestly tell me you think it was warranted by any other message from any MorphOS user in this thread and please explain why. I would love to read that kind of assessment, if it is really objective and truthful and not just more trolling by anyone.
I don't have anything personal against AmigaOS4.x and would buy and use it, if it weren't tied to such expensive hardware that is so underpowered. I also don't like some of the questionable behavior of some of the partners/owners of Hyperion in the past, but could overlook that if they had a better product at a better price, on better hardware.
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if you replace voodoo with radeon you will have to resign on warp3d on os3.9/68k side.
Thanks for the warning, however this machine will be OS4 only. I don't want to complicate things trying to dual-boot, plus I have a couple other machines running OS3.9.
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I didn't think of it being just a popular vote and from most of the reply's it would seem folk have given their reasons for the way they voted... :)
I know it isn't accurate by a long shot but from these results you could draw the conclusion that it seems to be long time Amiga users that favour AROS and that those newer to the Amiga scene (if you can call users of less than 20 years newbies) more in favour of OS4.X or MorphOS... :)
I dunno why but I've always had the idea that older and long term users would have chosen MorphOS and newer and younger users would have chosen AROS or OS4.X... :)
I am a long-time Amiga user (since 1986). I voted "Forever" in AmigaDave's poll. And I voted "AROS" in Franko's poll. So your conclusion works out for me at least.
I was away from the Amiga scene for a while, so I missed the "red vs. blue" wars. When I came back in 2006, I went for Amithlon instead even though developement had already stopped, because I had spare x86 equipment to test it on. When AROS finally became useable, I gravitated to that because it is open source. Because of this feature, it can be ported to any system, not just x86, but also PPC, ARM, and even the old Motorola 68xxx systems. It may not be as polished as OS4.x or MorphOS right now, but it has the best chance to survive in the long term.
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@aros supporters:
now, that aros unquestionably leads the way (at least on this site) how about to factually support the development where possible? im talking about testing and contributing, whatever you can think of. would be great to have it somewhere along the way to where mos currently is.
+1.
AROS is a community-effort: the larger the community, the better will be AROS in a shorter time. We still need any kind of help and support, being it coding, funding, evangelizing or making artistry.
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I love the "but mommy, he started it!" posts...
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They might have a different opinion.
Who is they? Hyperion? AmigaOS4.x users? The performance numbers don't lie. On the same exact hardware (Pegasos2) MorphOS2.x outperforms AmigaOS4.x in almost every category. MorphOS2.x runs more old Amiga 68k software and WarpUP/PowerUP PPC software natively (without using UAE) than AmigaOS4.x. Usually I do not point out these differences on forums because of the negative reaction it brings out, as I have been a strong proponent of cooperation between MorphOS2.x users and AmigaOS4.x & AROS users and don't like writing anything that is going to fuel the flame wars, but HotRod's postings were so out of line it just got under my skin and set me off.
I simply don't care about MorphOS. I don't own the hardware to run it and neither the newer MUI nor Ambient look like something that would impress me much.
I guess in your terms I am already trolling for just stating that.
Show me a single post of mine where I have I have criticized anyone for preferring to use AmigaOS4.x or AROS instead of MorphOS, or called them a troll just because they prefer to use AmigaOS4.x or AROS. Search through my almost 3000 posts on this site and find me just one. I have always respected people's choices and don't care what you choose to run as your favorite Amiga-Like OS, or what hardware you run it on, so long as you don't try to make false statements about it when comparing it to MorphOS2.x in an attempt to make MorphOS2.x look bad. MorphOS2.x has it's own faults, like all Amiga systems, so if you want to criticize it, use facts, not lies, or false information and I will have no problem with the criticism.
I have found that classic, UAE, AROS and AmigaOS4 aren't as aggressive as the blue team. Just today somebody posted an Animation that was created to make fun about the red camp and it was neither funny nor informative. And here they are trying to demotivate AROS fans by claiming something can't be done which is actually technically feasible (a pattern I have seen more than once).
So, sorry folks, but you aren't playing fair.
I agree that there are a few MorphOS trolls that are aggressive at times, but disagree that they are more aggressive, or post more often than, or are more in number than the AmigaOS4.x trolls. Both sides have "Bad Apples", as I have already admitted to before, but you and HotRod are here claiming that the MorphOS camp is the worst offender without offering any proof to that claim. If you had accurate statistics that could be proved, I would believe your claim, but since that kind of proof is impossible to produce, your claims are just more fuel for the flames and are no different than my angry response to HotRod's first message in this thread. Please provide a link to this "demotivating" animation that you have seen, so we can have some proof of your claims about the evil MorphOS users.
As for Piru's comments about what can and cannot be done in programming, with his track record, I will believe his assertions until they are proven incorrect, over the opinions of someone who does not write any code, or does not match his abilities as a programmer. His comments can be looked on as constructive criticism, that could save someone a lot of wasted time, or demotivating. Depends on your point of view. I sincerely do not believe that he makes those kinds of comments because he is trying to "demotivate" any programmer from trying to solve any programming challenge. He is a pretty smart guy and has a proven track record when it comes to writing good code. If you think that is unfair, ....... well, you are entitled to your opinion of what is and is not fair, but I just don't see any "un-fairness".
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I guess in your terms I am already trolling for just stating that. I have found that classic, UAE, AROS and AmigaOS4 aren't as aggressive as the blue team
I have to disagree. I know many nice fellows who are using OS4 but I also know couple of individuals who are (well were, since I havent seen those people much anymore) just lame. At some times it was impossible to talk about MorphOS without getting attacked by some strange persons. MorphOS never had such problem with other user groups.
Interestingly OS4 used to have lot problems with anyone not buying into OS4. Since then everything has luckily matured and neither MorphOS and OS4 users really care much about it anymore. On the other hand negative comments are IMO always ok. If someone doesnt like something in MorphOS he should be allowed to say it. (Kolla gets very annoying here sometimes but he is consistent with what he says. I really respect that even when he is just PITA. :P)
Just today somebody posted an Animation that was created to make fun about the red camp and it was neither funny nor informative.
Where? :-)
And here they are trying to demotivate AROS fans by claiming something can't be done which is actually technically feasible (a pattern I have seen more than once).
I disagree again. AROS people are nice and honest to MorphOS and so are MorphOS users and developers to AROS. But if something can not be implemented why not argue about it?
(Well, like always, there are exceptions, not everyone like everyone and sometimes people do stupid things)
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I love the "but mommy, he started it!" posts...
I also enjoy the posts about products being delayed, which instead of being addressed directly, get turned immediately into a counter-attack about the other person's favorite product being delayed.
*Amiga...building bridges of co-operation*
Unfortunately, they are all building the bridge at the Cassandra crossing.
#6
#6
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I love the "but mommy, he started it!" posts...
Blargh, yes. Remember when this thread was actually about the merits of different operating systems?
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Where? :-)
I has been retweeted on twitter. I found it here (http://twitter.com/amig4be). In fact it was what motivated me to write my previous post. Maybe I have been just a bit over-sensitive. I am sorry for all the nice MorphOS fans who might have felt wrongly accused by my post. And here for your enjoyment:
youtube-link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2iCBaYRw9E&feature=share)
But if something can not be implemented why not argue about it?
Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible. The point is that neither AmigaOS nor MorphOS can support Intel chips without a major headache and AROS on first sight should have the same difficulties. But since AROS doesn´t have to care about the PPC stuff and old Amigas are comparatively slow and small they can get away with some things that wouldn´t work out for the other guys. If AROS can run on 68k, 68k can run on AROS.
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The performance numbers don't lie.
Maybe they don´t, but some MorphOS fans claimed e.g. that you can´t watch DVDs on a SAM, beacause of the performance. Which works fine here out of the box. I get a decent framerate on my SAM. It was denied that you can edit video on OS4 with Blender. Which I did, although I must confess that it was terribly slow and you´d better get an X1000 for that (or even better - use MacOS Xs iMovie).
Even if MorphOS outshines on some measurements it doesn´t mean the alternatives don´t have their merits and you have to talk them down in order to look better.
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I
Because Piru knows that it is feasible.
And how would you know not only that it is feasible but also that Piru know it too ? ;)
It's really just as feasible as a ColdFire-accel.
On 1st sight it seems trivial.
On 2nd sight it seems feasible.
Once you start impementing it you'll notice that you have to keep up of much more than you thought.
If you actually get it running it's performance will be dissapointing (Elbox's Dragon-proto peformt like a 020 and only ran preselected SW).
One has to remember what is the goal of EMUMiga, run x86 and 68k SW seamless, something which will only work if all API calls return the same results on both sides and if data is compatible. Problem is both sides expect the date to be sorted/orientied differently and thats where it end cos at one point you will into a situation where the OS/EMUmiga doesn't know wether a pointer points to an ULONG (change endians) or an array of BYTE (must keep the order).
Solution would be:
a) make an AROS where all data/structure are 100% identical to AOS68k not a big issue on bigendian HW, but a nightmare (and performance killer) on littleendian.
b) run a heavy MMU-setup monitoring all accesses to OS and 3rd-party structures. Also performance killing and by definition never complete.
Or c) Just use Janus-UAE and ignore the fact that you are running a 2nd OS hidden inside the emulation
Bout that UTube-clip, indeed not very funny but if thats enough to wind you up I'd recommed to grow some thicker skin.
I do remember avatars with characters peeing on an shooting at the MorphOS-butterfly (without anybody ever really bothering) or if you really insist I'm sure someone could post you to some rather nice ann.lu threads.... heck or just some more recent amigians.net ones ;(
Edit:
Or just this thread were someone claimed that a core MorphOS developer intentionally lied about the feasibilty of what one might consider a competing product.
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Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible.
I don't consider the current (http://emumiga.com/files/internals.txt) emuamiga feasible. While the author asserts that "Luckily, system friendly applications are often written in ways that are pretty easy to emulate." I beg to differ. In my opinion there are serious design issues with the current emuamiga.
Please note that I am not trying to discourage anyone here. I'm just giving my expert opinion.
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Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible. The point is that neither AmigaOS nor MorphOS can support Intel chips without a major headache and AROS on first sight should have the same difficulties.
It has nothing to do with the hardware. It is only about endianess and sharing data between native and 68k applications.
But since AROS doesn´t have to care about the PPC stuff and old Amigas are comparatively slow and small they can get away with some things that wouldn´t work out for the other guys. If AROS can run on 68k, 68k can run on AROS.
Yes, I have seen UAE running on AROS. Now you can extend this so that you map Kickstart calls to native system and integrate it more. But if you wish to integrate it fully you have to figure out how to support PutMsg() (and anything remotely similar) between x86 and 68k components.
Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible.
You mean by duplicating all system and 3rd party structures? But what if x86 application is going to write into structure maintained on the 68k side?
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Maybe they don´t, but some MorphOS fans claimed e.g. that you can´t watch DVDs on a SAM, beacause of the performance. Which works fine here out of the box. I get a decent framerate on my SAM. It was denied that you can edit video on OS4 with Blender. Which I did, although I must confess that it was terribly slow and you´d better get an X1000 for that (or even better - use MacOS Xs iMovie).
Even if MorphOS outshines on some measurements it doesn´t mean the alternatives don´t have their merits and you have to talk them down in order to look better.
I have never said that the alternatives don't have their own merits. I have stated that I have considered buying AmigaOS4.1, but the cost to performance is just too steep for me right now, and I don't go around talking the alternative down in order to look better.
When criticized, or stupid polls come up asking which system is better, I state my opinion and the facts that back up my opinion. I stand up for myself when attacked or ridiculed, but otherwise I try to promote cooperation between users and developers. I know that the two opposing development teams will probably never work together, or even like each other (at least certain members), but that does not mean that the users and third party developers have to get sucked into the fight, or disagreements. Just use what you like and be happy.
@kronos,
+1
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I don't consider the current (http://emumiga.com/files/internals.txt) emuamiga feasible.
So maybe I misunderstood you. I don´t know much about the current emuamiga design and it wouldn´t be the first thing to get a complete rewrite before it reaches version 1.
I don´t understand why others keep referencing 3rd party structures. If they are written for AmigaOS they won´t leave the emulation so their endianness doesn´t change. If they are written for AROS they won´t be needed fot the 68k binaries anyways. The only data that has to cross the emulation/system border is the data of standard 3.1 libraries and devices.
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And what would be the point of that ?
Seamless means seamless, under MorphOS (and OS4 too) one can install a newer/better PPC-lib/MUI-class and all 68k useing that lib/class will benefit.
One can also write PPC-apps that rely on 68k libs/classes (when there is no PPC version available).
If all you want is to run 68k apps with the pure OS3.x API (Janus)-UAE is the far better choice.
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I don't think that's even remotely the only answer. It's still possible that someone could come up with a more reasonable PPC-based system - it's not like the architecture is dead, it's just in a rough patch for consumer computing - but it's still holding its own in the supercomputer market, and more relevantly, in the console market. Who's to say it doesn't make a bit of a resurgence as far as cost-effectiveness goes?
There's also ARM, which is kicking more ass than ever before now that it's become the architecture of choice for mobile computing of any variety - it's already obliterated the competition in the mobile-phone and tablet markets, there's a few netbooks out there sporting it, and Apple's apparently moving its laptop line over (and quite possibly its desktops, who knows?) Even Microsoft is getting in on the act - and not just for mobile platforms. You could do a lot worse for a new AROS machine than a Tegra board, that's for sure.
And there's also the Amiga clone-upgrade projects - sure, Natami isn't going to be as inexpensive as an ARM system, but for those of us who really like the 68k, it's quite promising - and FPGA Arcade looks pretty encouraging, too. So no, x86 is hardly the only choice. And frankly, if most of the platforms still using it are the PCs that need it for compatibility (and even the one PC OS where that's a factor is exploring other avenues,) then it looks like x86 might very well be on the way to becoming legacy hardware itself, barring another change in the winds.
(That said, I do agree that OS4 is a dead end - Hyperion obviously have very little clue about even the market they're targeting, if their definition of "classic Amigas" is "classic Amigas with a PPC board." How many of us even have such a setup? At least MorphOS can be assed to make their OS run on more than that very particular subset of system configurations.)
I'm with you there, although I'd count NatAmi and FPGA Arcade if they turn out to be what they're looking to be. But I don't begrudge people who want a more powerful system running an Amiga-like OS.
PPC is far too expensive to achieve i7 cheap as chips speeds or value for money, and ARM is barely suitable for use as a netbook IMO
X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have, that's not to say you can't build a clever bespoke motherboard that isn't identical to hardware layout of PC motherboard. Think of Xbox 1 vs Pentium III 700mhz PC. Radical difference in design and hence performance there really, and cost/performance too.
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I use OS 4.1. I use MorphOS. Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry. If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late.
Quite, Amiga had revolutionary cutting edge in price/performance and ultimate ability underpinning the whole thing. The OS was a very nice big juicy cherry on an exceptionally sumptuous and morish cake!
Unless the same sort of intelligence that gave us the PPC based Xbox 360 motherboard appears on the Amiga scene and fast it is a dead end. The ingredients have been there all along since 2007 but all we get is expensive complicated systems like x1000 and SAM 460 .............. *pass*
The software alone can not fight back against the sheer number crunching power available to people running code on super computer levels of performance on the latest i7 or AMD Thunderbird chips. FACT.
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PPC is far too expensive to achieve i7 cheap as chips speeds or value for money, and ARM is barely suitable for use as a netbook IMO
It's true that PPC is currently not cost-effective for desktop computing - but if things continue such that all three major console platforms are based on it, that's a fair bit of money flowing and an incentive to continue to improve it. And ARM is indeed still lagging behind x86 for desktop use, but it's rapidly catching up to the Atom line. And both of these have the advantage of being native RISC architectures, not CISC architectures run in emulation on a RISC microarchitecture. They might not be optimal solutions now, but that doesn't mean they might not be in the near future.
X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have
Uhh...what?
The software alone can not fight back against the sheer number crunching power available to people running code on super computer levels of performance on the latest i7 or AMD Thunderbird chips. FACT.
So who says it needs to? This stupid power-computing dick-measuring contest with platforms that have far more money and research effort pouring into them is the single biggest reason NG Amiga hardware has never gotten anywhere. This community needs to get over its massive inferiority complex once and for all.
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The only data that has to cross the emulation/system border is the data of standard 3.1 libraries and devices.
Which fails to work when 68k native application PutMsg() to your AROS native filesystem.
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I can't speak for anybody else, but IMHO, variety is the spice of life. I'd hate to see either OS4, MorphOS or AROS fall by the wayside.
I've always wished I had the time and sufficiently in-depth knowledge of each platform to build a common runtime for deploying applications across them all without having to sacrifice too much in striving for the least common denominator. I realise, for example, that MUI and Zune work very differently to Reaction but in all honesty, there's no implementation difference between them (or indeed almost any GUI system) so great that the appropriate application of design patterns couldn't abstract it.
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I would like to thank all parties for their efforts to continue the "Amiga" experience.
Cheers to those users who have continued using their Classic Amiga systems. My A2000HD still runs, but I do not use it as much as I did in the past. I purchased my A2000HD in about 1989.
Since the end of 2004, I have been using my PPC system more than my classic system.
All the best.
---
redfox
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Which fails to work when 68k native application PutMsg() to your AROS native filesystem.
Why would it? In that case the message format is well known and easy to proxy.
The only problem with PutMsg() would be message formats Emumiga doesn't know about and where it is ambiguous whether or not a specific value should have the endianness changed or not.
If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that? If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.
I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.
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X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have
If you mean to claim that it's the only mass produced desktop CPU we have it might open for discussion, but to claim it's the only mass produced CPU is flat out wrong.
Even if we were to pretend that MIPS, SuperH and PowerPC doesn't exist for various reasons, there's still ARM, which sells is vastly greater quantities than x86.
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cat
@Most MOS users
I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. [...]
You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.
I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.
[...]
Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.
| sed 's/MOS/OS4\.x/g'
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If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that? If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.
Exactly the point! Emumiga is intended for old binary-only stuff. New applications are hopefully open sourced and/or running natively on x86 AROS.
Emumiga relies totally on that AROS is implementing AmigaOS3.1 close enough. So, if AROS moves in a direction where it is forced to abandon some of the old APIs I'm basically screwed. I think that is the biggest risk in the long run.
I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.
A believer! Thank you. :-)
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Hi,
@Amigadave,
I sort of think that they are all bad apples.
smerf
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Why would it? In that case the message format is well known and easy to proxy.
So you are going to write wrappers for every known file system packet out there? Fine. Dont forget filesystem hooks, though. What are you going to do if someone wants to execute 68k native code in the filesystem context? Thanks to (maybe not so clever) AmigaOS 2.0 improvements it can be done...
And we are only at DOS. Lets play a little with my favorite MUI/Zune. This monster allows executing event hooks inside UI code. If you wish to use native Zune here you have to add wrappers for all hooks from 68k side. It can be actually done (I have done it... for another project...) but real fun starts when you wish to support custom classing. Zune objects are actually nothing but data structures. Parent and child objects (which could be 68k or AROS code, you never know) are called via DoMethod() calls. And DoMethod() call is not an OS call but it is simple call in amiga.lib or inlined to application so you can not easily trap calls to AROS code. I dont know how AROS implements DoMethod() so it could be easy to trap calls to 68k code again... and it will be slow because on every context switch you dont have to change only one data structure but data of every object in Zune application (objects have pointers to other objects so every referenced object must be translated to right endianess).
(Needless to say it will be much easier have one native Zune implementation and another Zune implementation for 68k applications.)
The only problem with PutMsg() would be message formats Emumiga doesn't know about and where it is ambiguous whether or not a specific value should have the endianness changed or not.
One could send a dos packet where data is the packet structure itself...
If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that?
The 68k code will never know is it calling 68k or native AROS code. It just assumes everything is 68k.
Thanks to OS 2.0 API design 68k code could be executed virtually everywhere in AROS userland. You can have filesystem hooks, you can have layer hooks, you can have input handlers, you can have interrupt handlers. The system also allows peeking into system lists, library bases, initialize system structures your own and modify them at will. You can edit your message port structure and changes are immediate.
If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.
What I am afraid that when you add mapping for one data structure it contains pointer to another data structure you have to map as well.
I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.
If we had unlimited resources we would have conquered the stars already :-P
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Exactly the point! Emumiga is intended for old binary-only stuff. New applications are hopefully open sourced and/or running natively on x86 AROS.
Emumiga relies totally on that AROS is implementing AmigaOS3.1 close enough.
Does it work with applications using BOOPSI subclassing?
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Someone please point out to me in this thread where the mud slinging started and who started it.
I did not notice anything overtly offensive until HotRod threw in his offensive remarks about "Most MorphOS users", which I got defensive about, since I am one of those MorphOS users and I gave my truthful opinion about what I have observed here and elsewhere. It has nothing to do with me wanting HotRod to agree with everything I say or write. I don't expect the AmigaOS4.x users to agree with the choices that I have made, or my opinions about what is best, but performance numbers and feature count has favored MorphOS2.x above AmigaOS4.x and AROS forever. Those are hard cold facts and since the most obnoxious of the AmigaOS4.x users don't like those facts being pointed out on any forums, they usually resort to any other means to try to degrade MorphOS and call it names like children, because they have no other way to make themselves feel good about the choice they have made to use AmigaOS4.x instead of MorphOS2.x.
HotRod made it to my "ignore list" because he was writing complete crap and seems to actually believe it, or is just a troll, not because I disagree with his opinions and choices. I have lots of friends that use AmigaOS4.x and I have no problem with them and their choices. Re-read HotRod's first message in this thread and honestly tell me you think it was warranted by any other message from any MorphOS user in this thread and please explain why. I would love to read that kind of assessment, if it is really objective and truthful and not just more trolling by anyone.
I don't have anything personal against AmigaOS4.x and would buy and use it, if it weren't tied to such expensive hardware that is so underpowered. I also don't like some of the questionable behavior of some of the partners/owners of Hyperion in the past, but could overlook that if they had a better product at a better price, on better hardware.
No, not a troll, never have been and never will be. What about you?
Once again you went there... cocky attitude about MOS. It isn't even at all related. I bet you can't say "good morning" to your girlfriend (or mom or whoever) without adding "oh and MOS is the fastest OS out there and runs on Mac hardware". Also not all MOS users wrote to me since, like I wrote and you already have frogotten it seems, it wasn't aimed at every MOS user (missed that part?). I mean if you even miss what I just wrote how can anyone take anything you write seriously? You can even read exactly what I wrote as you type if you wish and even then it isn't true.
"but performance numbers and feature count has favored MorphOS2.x above AmigaOS4.x and AROS forever"... yeah I remember that test. "Forever"? In what way is it "forever"? It is one test talking about a specific version of AOS 4 and a specific version of MOS. You don't know if that will be true forever either unless you're some kind of psychic. Now I never see statement like that from AROS or AOS 4 users either.
You suddenly call me a troll when I express my honest opinion that enyone can relate to that has followed the threads and news items on the sites that I listed. In what way am I the troll and you're not? Can you even reply without writing some silly propaganda about MOS?
Another reason for acting that way could perhaps be that you've choosen the MOS way, realised that it was wrong but are too proud to admit it. Either way, that is your problem in that case.
Finally you write an answer that is not true with the same old crap that some MOS users allways writes when I'm not at this site any more. Talking crap behind my back in other words. Now that is really low behaviour. No I don't see OS 4 users treating the operating system as a religion but when it comes to you I do, you can't write a single statement without braging about MOS. What kind of issues do you have? No seriously? Why do you complain about AOS 4 being run on expensive hardware, is it your issue when you don't even want to run it since you think that it is crap anyway? The obvious answer is that you can buy a new computer instead of a used mac with limited VRAM and no HDMI. My guess is that your jealous (yes I think that most insults that you throw around you are what you yourself are feeling) and you can't be honest about it. That is childish to try and punish people for not being in that situation. Like it's my fault that you have to run MOS on a Mac... no really, what are you THINKING?
And before you write anything about me insulting MOS or you maybe you can see how I DEFEND myself or rather AOS 4 because YOU brought it up. I didn't spend time writing down MOS which are easy to do by the way. It isn't anymore perfect than AOS 4, not in my eyes. To me there are no perfect OS either but the one I prefer is AOS 4 and thanks to people like you I don't care very much about MOS at all.
FYI I had plans to install it on my PowerMac if it gets released but all that will remind me of are all the crap that some MOS users writes all the time and as a result from that I will probably just see every single issue it has instead of enjoying it. Good work dude.
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When criticized, or stupid polls come up asking which system is better, I state my opinion and the facts that back up my opinion. I stand up for myself when attacked or ridiculed, but otherwise I try to promote cooperation between users and developers.
I find it odd that you've always considered other folks polls as stupid as you always liked to point out to me last year when I posted a number of polls that strangely enough basically covered the same topics which your current polls are based on... ;)
I know you wont be reading this as I am on your ignore list but pray tell why do you regard other folks polls as stupid (especially on the same subject as yours) yet your polls are not... :confused:
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I use OS 4.1. I use MorphOS. Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry. If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late. Many of you taking sides have not done yourself the favor of trying everything available. I use an OS4/Morph/AROS machine daily, that being said.
We are hobby folks, using said OS's for fun. I like both Morph and OS4, but I am not delusional enough to think that they are "next gen" and are going to storm the market. No one buys a SAM to replace a Mac or PC, and same goes for MorphOS/legacy Macs. You use the things cause they "take you back", and they are fun. Quit pissing and moaning and picking nits. I own a SAM, a Mac mini running Morph, and an AROS box. End result - when I want to watch a youtube video quick, or check gmail - I grab my tablet. The market has shifted. The computers we grew up on, held dear and were extremely proud to know inside and out have been replaced by "appliance devices". People grab the best tool for the job.
A mantra, whether it be Amiga OS's variants or mac/win/linux stuff.
Use what you like. Use all you can. Know what works best for you, and also know that what works best for you likely doesn't work the best for the next guy. Have fun, and try and let the modern computer folks know that we didn't all wake up one day with 3ghz PC's. Respect your roots, and the roots of others.
I agree with what you write but there are a little thing that I'd like to add. I use a PC with Win 7 most of the time these days. If I had a KVM switch (I will get one) I would probably use my AmigaOne more but other than that I use it for the things that you mentioned and games. However there are room for a better OS since the usage of AOS are more pleasant (I would even say much more) than Windows has ever been. That's why I upgraded my a4k during the 90s and early 2000 untill I bought the AmigaOne. I couldn't stand Windows, I always found something that annoyed me, actually several things. With Windows 7 I can stand it still got issues and runing AOS 4 is like a breath of fresh air, it just feels so much better.
What I really miss though except for software are hardware related. The fun that you had back in the day because of the superiour hardware sin't there any more. However the way you did things in AOS was often much more fun than doing it on any other computer because lots of software had really good ideas making them simple and fun to use, yet powerfull bringing out the creative side.
While lots of the devices that you mentioned are great and powerfull there isn't any fun to be had with them when it comes to creativity, they are more like tools to me. Windows kind of feel the same actually, to me at least.
Anyway, the point is that there are more than nostalgic reasons to run any of the amiga-like operating systems. There are simply room for a better experience. I think that's the whole point actually. To me AOS are as close to being perfect as it gets. It lacks lots of things that are better in for example Windows 7 but it isn't as anoying.
I think the long term goal is to grow, for any of these systems and it isn't impossible it will just take lots of time. If it will work out in the end is another thing though but I've decided to just have fun during this ride and see what happens.
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I agree with what you write but there are a little thing that I'd like to add. I use a PC with Win 7 most of the time these days. If I had a KVM switch (I will get one) I would probably use my AmigaOne more but other than that I use it for the things that you mentioned and games. However there are room for a better OS since the usage of AOS are more pleasant (I would even say much more) than Windows has ever been. That's why I upgraded my a4k during the 90s and early 2000 untill I bought the AmigaOne. I couldn't stand Windows, I always found something that annoyed me, actually several things. With Windows 7 I can stand it still got issues and runing AOS 4 is like a breath of fresh air, it just feels so much better.
What I really miss though except for software are hardware related. The fun that you had back in the day because of the superiour hardware sin't there any more. However the way you did things in AOS was often much more fun than doing it on any other computer because lots of software had really good ideas making them simple and fun to use, yet powerfull bringing out the creative side.
While lots of the devices that you mentioned are great and powerfull there isn't any fun to be had with them when it comes to creativity, they are more like tools to me. Windows kind of feel the same actually, to me at least.
Anyway, the point is that there are more than nostalgic reasons to run any of the amiga-like operating systems. There are simply room for a better experience. I think that's the whole point actually. To me AOS are as close to being perfect as it gets. It lacks lots of things that are better in for example Windows 7 but it isn't as anoying.
I think the long term goal is to grow, for any of these systems and it isn't impossible it will just take lots of time. If it will work out in the end is another thing though but I've decided to just have fun during this ride and see what happens.
My, this whole thread has gotten unnecessarily ugly and contentious. I use MorphOS because it works well and the necessary investment in hardware is lower.
If it didn't exist I'd probably be using AROS.
AOS4 hardware is just too expensive for me to justify. But those of you who want to go that route have my blessing.
Frankly it all part of the same market to me and I'm not going to allow someone else's passion for a similar OS (almost identical) overwhelm me.
This whole thread's gotten quite inane.
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This whole thread's gotten quite inane.
And you've only just noticed that... ;)
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My, this whole thread has gotten unnecessarily ugly and contentious. I use MorphOS because it works well and the necessary investment in hardware is lower.
If it didn't exist I'd probably be using AROS.
AOS4 hardware is just too expensive for me to justify. But those of you who want to go that route have my blessing.
Frankly it all part of the same market to me and I'm not going to allow someone else's passion for a similar OS (almost identical) overwhelm me.
This whole thread's gotten quite inane.
I guess that you somehow got insulted because I wrote so much about AOS 4 but that's simply becaue that is what I run when I want to use something AOS related. I've also tried AROS under VirtualBox in Windblows.
The point however was that there are room for a better experience than Windows offers (or Linux or MacOS). Then if it is AROS, MOS or AOS that brings that experience, that's another thing.
Get the point?
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So you are going to write wrappers for every known file system packet out there? Fine. Dont forget filesystem hooks, though. What are you going to do if someone wants to execute 68k native code in the filesystem context?
No, I'd suggest supporting the known packets *with known uses* by *known apps that people still care about*. There aren't all that many, and the mapping is fairly mechanical and can to some extent be automated (you'd need to describe the fields, but there's no need to manually write all the code).
As for handling the hooks, again, why do you think this is even a problem? It is no different from handling any other part of the system - you need to trap any attempted read/writes from/to the "host" and translate appropriately. Tedious, sure, but not much more.
But more importantly, since the number of possible applications is small and finite, if there are any particularly troublesome applications you can add workarounds for that specific application.
This is a shortcut for rewriting a subset of applications - it doesn't need to be perfect. It needs to work for the m68k applications a reasonable number of people still care about and where it's not easier to port an existing alternative application instead. For the rest there's UAE.
I think a lot of those of you that think this is so hard are massively overestimating the scope of this.
We don't need Emumiga to be able to run every legal m68k Amiga app - the only reason to do that would be just to say you can -, just ones already in existence. We don't need Emumiga to even be able to run all of the ones in existence, only the ones that people want to be able to run regularly on AROS with tight integration.
For apps that people rarely if ever run or want to run other than the occasional trip for nostalgia and/or that doesn't need any form of integration (like most games and demos), there's no point - Janus UAE is sufficient.
This isn't like Wine where there are millions of apps that people want to to run, and where tons of apps are still actively developed for the Win32 API that are not being made available for Linux, and that drives people to want and expect Wine to run "everything" (even then: I for one have noticed how the interest in Wine has waned since virtualization meant that people increasingly only care about Windows apps that they want tightly integrated with the rest of their desktop)
There are "only" about 30000 m68k archives on Aminet that are even *potential* candidates (when you've excluded MOD's, demos etc.). Beyond that there are a few thousand commercial applications at most. I don't know how many of those are still interesting enough to care. Games (barring possible "workbench games") are outside the scope of Emumiga.
My guess is that 5000 packages that would be even worthwhile for Emumiga to target would be seriously overestimating it, given that a ton of those 30000 either won't be code, will be various old versions, utilities that plain doesn't make any sense anymore, apps that nobody uses, apps that are open source and better handled by porting/recompiling for AROS etc., or apps that have already been ported.
There's no doubt Emumiga will be a lot of work, but even if you have to add manual workarounds for a lot of the applications in the "interesting" set, it'd still be feasible.
Parent and child objects (which could be 68k or AROS code, you never know) are called via DoMethod() calls. And DoMethod() call is not an OS call but it is simple call in amiga.lib or inlined to application so you can not easily trap calls to AROS code.
It's fairly simple to automatically create thunks to handle this. I've written enough compilers with custom object systems to have done far nastier things than that.
and it will be slow because on every context switch you dont have to change only one data structure but data of every object in Zune application (objects have pointers to other objects so every referenced object must be translated to right endianess).
Since the m68k side is emulated, you can easily lazily mutate data first when it's actually needed on the m68k side. Will it be slower than "just" emulating everything in UAE? Maybe, but frankly it doesn't matter with the performance of modern x86 hardware.
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We don't need Emumiga to be able to run every legal m68k Amiga app - the only reason to do that would be just to say you can -, just ones already in existence. We don't need Emumiga to even be able to run all of the ones in existence, only the ones that people want to be able to run regularly on AROS with tight integration.
For apps that people rarely if ever run or want to run other than the occasional trip for nostalgia and/or that doesn't need any form of integration (like most games and demos), there's no point - Janus UAE is sufficient.
There are "only" about 30000 m68k archives on Aminet that are even *potential* candidates (when you've excluded MOD's, demos etc.). Beyond that there are a few thousand commercial applications at most. I don't know how many of those are still interesting enough to care. Games (barring possible "workbench games") are outside the scope of Emumiga.
My guess is that 5000 packages that would be even worthwhile for Emumiga to target would be seriously overestimating it, given that a ton of those 30000 either won't be code, will be various old versions, utilities that plain doesn't make any sense anymore, apps that nobody uses, apps that are open source and better handled by porting/recompiling for AROS etc., or apps that have already been ported.
Hmm... not sure why you think that no-one still uses all these old apps anymore, I do, every day... :)
I very rarely play games on the Amiga and use it on daily basis for everything I need computing wise gfx, DTP, audio etc... :)
So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:
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If I may jump in for a moment!
The Emumiga concept was discussed and rejected in favour of an integrated UAE, which is the "official" 68k compatibility route that has been taken. But let us NOT forget AROS is a research operating system, and that makes projects like Emumiga really bloody exciting!
I'm wondering if the ideal solution would be some kind of Hybrid... With both a translation layer and complete 68k parts of AROS running in the Emumiga environment. It's things like this that both excite and inspire, and that's the point :)
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Remember, AROS is two main things.
AROS x86 (where Emumiga could help people run m68k Amiga HUNK binaries.)
AROS m68k, which aims for 100 % 3.1 compatibility on Commodore Amiga machines. They even have tentative plans for supporting 1.x stuff which does not work on 3.x ...
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Hmm... not sure why you think that no-one still uses all these old apps anymore, I do, every day... :)
I very rarely play games on the Amiga and use it on daily basis for everything I need computing wise gfx, DTP, audio etc... :)
So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:
Issues are getting confussed here.
AROS 68k will run your 68K apps just fine. The main thread now is that Emumiga will only ever run a subset of 68k apps within the AROS x86 environment... But that isn't really a problem as we already have a transparent UAE for running 68k Apps in AROS on other CPUs.
Emumiga is an experiment, an interesting idea that keeps people like me, who are fascinated by weird experimental concepts, interested in the platform. :)
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So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:
Read up on this some more. UAE and Emumiga are both solutions for running 68k software on a foreign CPU. Like AROS running on x86 PC:s.
AROS-68k, on the other hand, runs 68k software natively, since it runs the software on the 68k CPU. Just in the same way all other Amiga software is run in for example OS3.1.
Little things that seem obvious to some can get lost in the discussions. :)
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@ Bloodline
Thanks for clearing that up, that other post left me wondering (again) if AROS 68k would not be able to run a lot of stuff and then what would be the point of it, I'll take your word for it though over anyone else's...cheers... :)
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Read up on this some more. UAE and Emumiga are both solutions for running 68k software on a foreign CPU. Like AROS running on x86 PC:s.
AROS-68k, on the other hand, runs 68k software natively, since it runs the software on the 68k CPU. Just in the same way all other Amiga software is run in for example OS3.1.
Little things that seem obvious to some can get lost in the discussions. :)
Cheers Forcie, Bloodline has already answered that question for me... :)
It would be a wee bit more helpful though to us AROS dummies if folk when talking about the technical side would bear in mind that not all of us who are interested in AROS are technical experts on this subject... :)
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Hmm... not sure why you think that no-one still uses all these old apps anymore, I do, every day... :)
Bloodline has already addressed UAE + AROS m68k being able to run "everything". But let me just address the point above:
No, I don't think no-one uses *most* of these apps anymore. Sure, there are plenty that *are* being used, and those would be great to support.
But I'm willing to bet that even you are not using 30000 m68k applications on a regular basis.
If nothing else because a huge amount of them are redundant (multiple versions, multiple tools that does the exact same thing) or have been obsoleted by newer m68k apps, or not even apps, or have hardly been downloaded.
E.g. in the util/app category, to pick one at random, there are archives that have only been downloaded 2-3 times since they were uploaded in '95/'96. Given that a lot of the time people will download files just to check things out, and the number of users that have fallen off since the 90's, we can safely assume that a fairly substantial number of applications with downloads even in the hundreds are not being used by *anyone* anymore.
On top of that, in that category alone, a bunch of the archives are catalog files, and there are umpteen different generic app icons that does almost exactly the same, and a bunch of different versions of the same apps.
This is pretty much par for Aminet. In other categories you'll also find tons of icons, graphics, documents etc. mixed in with the applications.
So for starters the actual number of unique applications is far lower than 30k, and of those the actual number of applications with unique functionality is far lower than that again, and only a subset of those are still being used by anyone simply because there are so many that overlaps and so few users left.
Even then, there's no point in Emumiga handling them if none of the people using those applications have any interest at all in running Amiga on a non-m68k platform, as on m68k they'd be able to run them straight on AROS m68k or AmigaOS..
That's why I think that the actual number of applications there'd be any point at all for Emumiga to support (as opposed to UAE which has as a goal to be a faithful emulation, or AROS m68k, which should work as documented, both which should aim to be able to run far more) is somewhere well below 5000.
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@ Vidarth
I'm not disagreeing with you over just how many "real" apps there are on AmiNet, as to be honest it's been many years since I downloaded anything from there... :)
Everything I run on a daily basis on my Amiga's are years old and do the jobs required of them and if I can't find something to do a job I simply write my own in 68K Assembly... :)
My main interest in AROS is that it will finally put an end to all the BS over the "legality" of obtaining Kickstart images. I don't have need to be able to run modern day apps that folk use on PC's or Mac's or have versions of them ported to the Amiga, for me everything that I need for computing has already been written for the Amiga a long time ago... :
It's like the NatAmi, I want to buy one but I'm not looking for it to be some new miracle all singing all dancing machine that will allow me to run the type of things folk use on PC's and Mac's. I see the NatAmi as a way of having new hardware that does all that the Amiga has always done but instead of relying on eBay and the likes to find old hardware at crazy prices, I would be able to purchase a brand new NatAmi instead... :)
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Amiga OS4 for PPC systems and AROS for x86.
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@ Bloodline
Thanks for clearing that up, that other post left me wondering (again) if AROS 68k would not be able to run a lot of stuff and then what would be the point of it, I'll take your word for it though over anyone else's...cheers... :)
Please don't just take my word for it! Try it out :) Seeing my old 68k apps (some written nearly 20 years ago) running in AROS on my A1200 is a very oddly emotional expeience ;)
Probably because I've dreamed of a 68k version of AROS ever since I first ran it on a Pentium II back at university, 12 years ago!
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There are probably 5 or 6 old 68k apps that I would like to run in AROS x86... Given that is a very small set, I might be possible to get Emumiga to a level where they could run via that... If not then, Transparent UAE it is :)
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Bloodline...How is your Aros68K-A1200 experience? Looks like it is OK. In my own Aros68K-UAE poking around, it seems to me that this is the way to go as opposed to a massively patched 3.x original. Would you tend to agree? Question...Aros kickstart' files are softloaded at boot somehow?
I am debating on installing this in my A3000. I am assuming that all of the expansion hardware I have wouldn't be an issue and that I would still be able to run RTG video via cybergraphx4. The problem I have in the A3000 is memory. only a 2/16MB config. Maybe it is time to jump onboard the 256MB ZorRam thing. Which would mean I have issues with # of cards installed. I think dumping the X-Surf/Subway USB combo in favor of Deneb/USB/USB Network would do the trick. I need to learn more about this USB network thingy I see people using...
So Aros68K very interesting and certainly could solve once and for all the 68K OS availability and politics and do so with improved functionality.
Cheers.
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Please don't just take my word for it! Try it out :) Seeing my old 68k apps (some written nearly 20 years ago) running in AROS on my A1200 is a very oddly emotional expeience ;)
Probably because I've dreamed of a 68k version of AROS ever since I first ran it on a Pentium II back at university, 12 years ago!
Erm... how do I do that... I thought AROS 68k wasn't ready yet and only the developers had it... :confused:
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@rodomoc, franko:
i have posted a short instruction how to boot aros on real amiga numerous times also in this thread. have patience read through or search for it. aros68k is currently booting again.
a3000/030 with 16mb ram should be enough to get it running, will be quite slow though. no rtg support as yet, and i dont have an ocs/ecs machine to test.
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Erm... how do I do that... I thought AROS 68k wasn't ready yet and only the developers had it... :confused:
AROS gets compiled during nights and new versions are released to the public for every supported platform every day on www.aros.org (http://www.aros.org). Since 68k is a supported platform, this means that there is a new version for that every day, too.
Follow Wawas instructions if you want to try it on real hardware, although the planar gfx support is not very good yet, so it wont be as fun as emulating with the uaegfx chunky modes for now.
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As for handling the hooks, again, why do you think this is even a problem? It is no different from handling any other part of the system - you need to trap any attempted read/writes from/to the "host" and translate appropriately. Tedious, sure, but not much more.
If you think it can be done in filesystem context, ok. I was thinking it would be too slow and thought about implementing ExAll() emulation in Emumiga. My mistake.
But more importantly, since the number of possible applications is small and finite, if there are any particularly troublesome applications you can add workarounds for that specific application.
This is a shortcut for rewriting a subset of applications - it doesn't need to be perfect. It needs to work for the m68k applications a reasonable number of people still care about and where it's not easier to port an existing alternative application instead. For the rest there's UAE.
There arent that many applications indeed. But dont assume people wont try all kind of exotic applications.
I think a lot of those of you that think this is so hard are massively overestimating the scope of this.
I think you just dont know Amiga software very well. If AmigaOS design was kept easy and simple like it was in Kickstart 1.3 it could even work. In release 2.0 Commodore developers really screwed it up.
We don't need Emumiga to be able to run every legal m68k Amiga app - the only reason to do that would be just to say you can -, just ones already in existence. We don't need Emumiga to even be able to run all of the ones in existence, only the ones that people want to be able to run regularly on AROS with tight integration.
So Emumiga will be tailored for each application? My wish list would be very short: Blacks Editor because it is still the best text editor for Amiga. AmiNetRadio and dynAMIte could be nice to have, too. I can not remember any other useful 68k applications/games anymore.
There's no doubt Emumiga will be a lot of work, but even if you have to add manual workarounds for a lot of the applications in the "interesting" set, it'd still be feasible.
When working on OS4Emu I added manual workaround for every known hook in MUI (this because ABI is different in MorphOS). If you love that kind of stuff, nice. I can compile list of MUI hooks if it is any help with Emumiga development.
It's fairly simple to automatically create thunks to handle this. I've written enough compilers with custom object systems to have done far nastier things than that.
Hmm? Do you realize how often OO application are going to have context switch between 68k and AROS native code? You can not even figure out when 68k code is calling native AROS code because it is nothing but jsr() to a pointer. Nothing is going to tell you 68k code is trying to call AROS BOOPSI dispatcher code. This is not only Zune/MUI related issue but concerns all BOOPSI driven applications and classes.
This problem is related to 68k hook implementation. BOOPSI dispatcher is an extension of struct Hook -- if there is any chance that 68k code could call your BOOPSI dispatcher or hook function you are in trouble.
Just ask how many problems the OS4 dev team had with their MMU driven context switch code. It never worked properly and they went to trap based implementation. Since AROS can not use traps I dont see how this could be handled at all.
But back to data endianess problem. How do you can really know what kind of data structure there is behind Object pointer? Depending on object type its data structure extension is different. Are you going to detect data structure format based on its pointer + allocated space for object?
(Obviously naive endianess swap in 68k emulation code can not work because data could be written to the disk for example.)
Since the m68k side is emulated, you can easily lazily mutate data first when it's actually needed on the m68k side. Will it be slower than "just" emulating everything in UAE? Maybe, but frankly it doesn't matter with the performance of modern x86 hardware.
Anything that executes 68k code faster than real 060 is already enough and 020 level of performance is still acceptable. It could be an issue in the operating system code i.e. when executing layer hooks where multitasking is suspended.
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Bloodline, I first booted aros from a floppy ages ago. I was so excited at the time to see it run on x86/vga. (even if it did almost nothing then) Aros for 68k is odd to me, but I suppose its like coming home in a sense. I think I'd be very excited to see aros running on my 1200.
Steven
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Bloodline...How is your Aros68K-A1200 experience? Looks like it is OK. In my own Aros68K-UAE poking around, it seems to me that this is the way to go as opposed to a massively patched 3.x original. Would you tend to agree? Question...Aros kickstart' files are softloaded at boot somehow?
:lol: AROS 68k on an A1200 is currently slow, painful and bloody good fun :)
There is a nightly build ADF on the AROS website, write it to a real Amiga disk... Boot your Amiga with the disk, it will softkick the AROS ROM... The fun is then throwing all your Amiga software at it and seeing what crashes and what produces weird results ;)
I am debating on installing this in my A3000. I am assuming that all of the expansion hardware I have wouldn't be an issue and that I would still be able to run RTG video via cybergraphx4. The problem I have in the A3000 is memory. only a 2/16MB config. Maybe it is time to jump onboard the 256MB ZorRam thing. Which would mean I have issues with # of cards installed. I think dumping the X-Surf/Subway USB combo in favor of Deneb/USB/USB Network would do the trick. I need to learn more about this USB network thingy I see people using...
So Aros68K very interesting and certainly could solve once and for all the 68K OS availability and politics and do so with improved functionality.
Cheers.
Try the nightly build, have a play, you're not going to break anything and te devs welcome all feedback!
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I think you just dont know Amiga software very well. If AmigaOS design was kept easy and simple like it was in Kickstart 1.3 it could even work. In release 2.0 Commodore developers really screwed it up.
My point about scope is that the number of applications that it needs to support is fairly manageable. It doesn't need to support every possible "legal" thing an AmigaOS app can do simply because not every permutation of legal things are actually being done by existing, still useful AmigaOS applications.
So Emumiga will be tailored for each application?
I don't think that's the goal, but if it's *necessary* I don't think anyone would object to it. That's the point.
My wish list would be very short: Blacks Editor because it is still the best text editor for Amiga. AmiNetRadio and dynAMIte could be nice to have, too. I can not remember any other useful 68k applications/games anymore.
And *this* is the point. While I'm sure there are people who use many, many more m68k apps, the total number that people actually use is still fairly limited.
Hmm? Do you realize how often OO application are going to have context switch between 68k and AROS native code? You can not even figure out when 68k code is calling native AROS code because it is nothing but jsr() to a pointer.
Of course you can. Any AROS code that's made "visible" to the m68k code would need to be "mapped" into the m68k apps address space. It's then absolutely trivial to make the m68k emulator detect when the m68k core tries to access an address that would bring it into AROS code.
Nothing is going to tell you 68k code is trying to call AROS BOOPSI dispatcher code.
Yes, the m68k emulator would, because it would know that the target address of a JSR etc. is an address that corresponds to a function exported from the host environment, rather than m68k code. This bit is trivial.
But back to data endianess problem. How do you can really know what kind of data structure there is behind Object pointer? Depending on object type its data structure extension is different. Are you going to detect data structure format based on its pointer + allocated space for object?
This only ever matter if it's a data structure "exported" from AROS to m68k. The subset of data structures that are worth exporting *and* that m68k code would legally try to access is limited, because it is limited to only libraries that are used by m68k code *and* where it makes sense for the m68k code to call the AROS native version of the library rather than a straight m68k version. They don't *need* to be able to call the AROS native versions other than where it impacts integration.
E.g. you don't strictly *need* it to be able to call the host version of Zune, for example (while it might be desirable), since Zune doesn't need to run in a single context for all applications in the system.
There's a tradeoff between how complicated you make it vs. how tight integration is really necessary - the less integration, the closer you get to the Janus-UAE model. The more integration, the more work to translate data structures etc.. It's not either/or.
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Bloodline, Thanks for the feedback. I think that I will attempt running Aros 68K from the ADF method you mention on my A3000 in native ECS video to see what happens. The machine does have 040 in it so maybe this will help it run Aros 68K better. I won't worry about any of the expansion hardware I have yet and if it freaks Aros 68K out somehow, I'll unplug the lot of it. :)
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Bloodline, Thanks for the feedback. I think that I will attempt running Aros 68K from the ADF method you mention on my A3000 in native ECS video to see what happens. The machine does have 040 in it so maybe this will help it run Aros 68K better. I won't worry about any of the expansion hardware I have yet and if it freaks Aros 68K out somehow, I'll unplug the lot of it. :)
the current stage of aros 68k is trying to support maximum configurations. whoever is familiar with serial debugging could hook up (sub 25->9 pin adapter + null-modem cable + eventually serial->usb adapter between their amiga and a pc. using tera term on pc (adjusting the port and baudrate to 115200) you can catch the boot log and supply it to aros dev list. feedback welcome.
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And *this* is the point. While I'm sure there are people who use many, many more m68k apps, the total number that people actually use is still fairly limited.
But seems you can only run simple clock application nobody really need...
I really like Emumiga approach because it tries to bring something new, explore and research. But seeing even very simple data structure like MsgPort (only 40 bytes) has limited support I dont feel confident it is feasible for large applications.
Yes, the m68k emulator would, because it would know that the target address of a JSR etc. is an address that corresponds to a function exported from the host environment, rather than m68k code. This bit is trivial.
It would know when 68k code is calling AROS native code but it would not know how to map 68k params to AROS native code. If you look at hook definition you will find out it is (almost) always standard. However, with DoMethod() call it is more complex because it is a vararg call. You know, DoMethod(obj, method_id, param1, param2, ....) where parameters are pushed to stack and pointer to params is placed in register A1. You can map 68k register to native AROS but what to do with parameters in the stack?
In theory you could always swap endianess of parameters... but how many parameters there will be? You can check method_id but it is not unique. There is no terminator nor there is any number in front of parameters indicating count. Keep track of AROS native objects so you could actually match method_id? Maybe... could work if you dont include Zune.
You could also subclass BOOPSI classes so neither 68k or AROS code would never call directly real dispatcher but go through emulation dispatcher first. However, you have to support large number of methods and tags here...
Btw similar problems will appear with CallHookPkt() (nice vararg call) but you are left without subclassing option.
This only ever matter if it's a data structure "exported" from AROS to m68k. The subset of data structures that are worth exporting *and* that m68k code would legally try to access is limited, because it is limited to only libraries that are used by m68k code *and* where it makes sense for the m68k code to call the AROS native version of the library rather than a straight m68k version. They don't *need* to be able to call the AROS native versions other than where it impacts integration.
Library wrappers are easy. Call AROS, done. Call AROS, done. Call AROS, done.
E.g. you don't strictly *need* it to be able to call the host version of Zune, for example (while it might be desirable), since Zune doesn't need to run in a single context for all applications in the system.
If you run another instance of Zune in 68k context then things get easier indeed. The same probably should be done to datatypes.
There's a tradeoff between how complicated you make it vs. how tight integration is really necessary - the less integration, the closer you get to the Janus-UAE model. The more integration, the more work to translate data structures etc.. It's not either/or.
More or less Emumiga is stripped down UAE. In other words there is 68k CPU emulation and modified Kickstart image. It does not matter how library call are processed as long as parameters and results are kept in big endian mode.
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About Emumiga. From now on, read "x86" as "host". (Emumiga would work on ARM too for instance.)
Emumiga runs EVERYTHING except the program itself in an x86 context. Every loaded library is an x86 library. It works by a pretty deep and convoluted set of "layers" of memory mappings, which it uses to keep track of pointers within structs within pointers.
Moggen is one of the very few coders I know which could implement something like this. This is actually research level stuff and he could write a paper about it.
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I think AROS stands the better chance of survival what with it being Open Source and running on a lot of commodity PCs. The 68K port sound interesting. I still have my old A1200 though it hasn't been used in years. I've downloaded and had a quick look at AROS on x86 using VirtualBox and it seems at first glance to be very good.
I've never used OS4 or MorphOS. Both of them look fantastic but I cant help but feel that PowerPC is a dead end. The hardware is just too expensive for OS4. I like the fact that MorphOS can work on an old PowerPC Mac but I feel this is too limited for them. New inexpensive hardware is what is required along with a good base of software. The lack of software is the real killer of each of the OSes in my humble opinion.
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AROS gets compiled during nights and new versions are released to the public for every supported platform every day on www.aros.org (http://www.aros.org). Since 68k is a supported platform, this means that there is a new version for that every day, too.
Follow Wawas instructions if you want to try it on real hardware, although the planar gfx support is not very good yet, so it wont be as fun as emulating with the uaegfx chunky modes for now.
Ok I went to the site and downloaded the following file :-
AROS-20110524-amiga-m68k-system.tar.bz2
Problem number 1:- As seems to be typical these days for things that folk have written or archived using a PC, the filename is TOO LONG for it to be recognised on a REAL Amiga... :(
Easily solved though (but still ruddy annoying) I renamed it to AROS.tar using my iMac... :)
Problem number 2: - Unfortunately I can't unarchive it on my Amiga as all un-archiving programs I've just tried just throw up error messages along the lines of "unrecognised" or "this is not a proper xyz archive"... :(
(I tried UnARJ, UnRAR, UnTGZ etc... that I have on my Amiga but with no luck)... :(
So have I downloaded the wrong file or do you need too find someone called Gandalf to stand in front of it and mumble some hocus pocus and bang his staff to open the archive... ;)
PS: Who is "Wawa" is he a hobbit that didn't make it into the films... :confused:
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Problem number 2: - Unfortunately I can't unarchive it on my Amiga as all un-archiving programs I've just tried just throw up error messages along the lines of "unrecognised" or "this is not a proper xyz archive"... :(
(I tried UnARJ, UnRAR, UnTGZ etc... that I have on my Amiga but with no luck)... :(
The filename does indeed exceed the FFS 30 char limit, but this is not a problem for most classic users who are running on SFS or PFS3 partitions.
Like the filename suggests, this is a standard UNIX-style tarball archive compressed with the bzip2 algorithm. Tools for unpacking this on Amiga have been available since the bzip2 compression algorithm was created in the mid 90's. This is consistent with the standard GNU toolchain that most people developing for the Amiga platform are using nowadays.
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Might want to try renaming it to .tar.bz2 there, Franko - some archivers (including at least the implementation of tar on my system) won't understand that it's a zipped tarball otherwise.
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Like the filename suggests, this is a standard UNIX-style tarball archive compressed with the bzip2 algorithm. Tools for unpacking this on Amiga have been available since the bzip2 compression algorithm was created in the mid 90's. This is consistent with the standard GNU toolchain that most people developing for the Amiga platform are using nowadays.
Ok even though that's total gobbeldygook to me, I spotted the word ZIP in there so perhaps one of the ZIP unarchivers I have on my miggy will be able to open this mysterious box of tricks, I'll give it a go... :)
Still pretty dumb though (and just plain lazy) archiving things for a real Amiga and not bothering to make sure the filename is 30 chars or less so that it can be recognised on a real Amiga... ;)
It's like a DVD I once bought on eBAY with some 16,000 C64 games on it, they all had filenames of incredible lengths and I had to write my own program that could handle these long filenames and convert them to 30 chars or less as they were copied across to the Amigas HD... :)
Why do folk who do stuff on PC's that they hope to be used on a real Amiga forget the very simple fact that the Amiga can't handle these silly long filenames they give them... :rolleyes:
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@ Commodorejohn
Thanks, I'll give that a try too... :)
@ Forcie
I do use SFS but when your transferring something between a MAC and the Amiga it doesn't help as utilities like DirWork (which I use) or DOpus still don't allow for the recognition of these long filenames to be able to read them from the the SD card (in this case) or CD/DVD etc... ;)
It would be much simpler if someone intends their program to be used on a REAL Amiga to remember the 30 Char limitation... :)
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Still pretty dumb though (and just plain lazy) archiving things for a real Amiga and not bothering to make sure the filename is 30 chars or less so that it can be recognised on a real Amiga... ;)
It's like a DVD I once bought on eBAY with some 16,000 C64 games on it, they all had filenames of incredible lengths and I had to write my own program that could handle these long filenames and convert them to 30 chars or less as they were copied across to the Amigas HD... :)
Why do folk who do stuff on PC's that they hope to be used on a real Amiga forget the very simple fact that the Amiga can't handle these silly long filenames they give them... :rolleyes:
"Real Amigas" did not come with the lha unarchiver either. So technically uploading Amiga software to the net in this format is inconsiderate of people using "Real Amigas" :)
No, but seriously. This is still adapted to the logic of the more tech-savvy, developer kind of Amiga user. A guy who upgraded his filesystem 15 years ago and got rid of the filename limitation, and is familiar with common industry-standard UNIX tools. It is all bound to be a little cryptic for anyone not familiar with it. Eventually there will be a full, user-oriented distribution of AROS-68k with pre-installed third party software which is easier to install for the run-of-the-mill user.
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"Real Amigas" did not come with the lha unarchiver either. So technically uploading Amiga software to the net in this format is inconsiderate of people using "Real Amigas" :)
No, but seriously. This is still adapted to the logic of the more tech-savvy, developer kind of Amiga user. A guy who upgraded his filesystem 15 years ago and got rid of the filename limitation, and is familiar with common industry-standard UNIX tools. It is all bound to be a little cryptic for anyone not familiar with it. Eventually there will be a full distribution of AROS-68k which is easier to install for the run-of-the-mill user.
I hope so cos even as I type here my UnZip utils on my Amiga right beside me are having a hairy fit trying to recognise this thing... :crazy:
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I hope so cos even as I type here my UnZip utils on my Amiga right beside me are having a hairy fit trying to recognise this thing... :crazy:
Here are the proper decompressors if you are interested in trying:
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/AmiGNUtar
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/bzip2_68k
bzip2 might require ixemul.library, I am not sure since I have had it installed on all my AmigaOS installations since the 90s. :)
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Hmm...oddly, it looks like there aren't very many tools for classic Amiga that handle both tarball and bzip - you might have to decompress it with bunzip (http://m68k.aminet.net/package/util/arc/bzip2-bin-m68k) first and then use untar (http://m68k.aminet.net/package/util/arc/untar) to unpack it. That's a bit frustrating...
Oh, beaten. Eh, what the hell, I'll leave it for posterity.
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Here are the proper decompressors if you are interested in trying:
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/AmiGNUtar
http://aminet.net/package/util/arc/bzip2_68k
bzip2 might require ixemul.library, I am not sure since I have had it installed on all my AmigaOS installations since the 90s. :)
Well as I've just tried every unarchiving util I have (including PPC versions) and got more errors than can be found in a CUSA press release, I'll download those ones and give them a go (although I'm pretty sure bzip2 I've already just tried)... :)
If that fails then would someone please email in whichever year that AROS finally becomes available for it to be un-archived easily on an Amiga, I can be found in the usual place (just under the big yellow mushroom)...ta ... :)
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:cry:
Wibble... :(
AmiGNUTar (sounds like some sort of wee Russian fishwife) no luck there... :( (and it's "help" option has obviously been written by a PC junkie high on meths or Swahili, hard to tell really)... :crazy:
Bzip2, only contains the archiver it tells you to use Bunzip2, which just happens not to include in the archive (gawd geeza brek)... :(
ME... I'm going back under the mushroom for now... so I'll just read about AROS for the time being until someone decides to archive it in usable manner... :insane:
I used to be normal once upon a time, long, long ago in the far off distant future... :)
Why do turtles even bother being turtles... :)
Me dog aint died today, but there's time yet... :)
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:cry:
AmiGNUTar (sounds like some sort of wee Russian fishwife) no luck there... :( (and it's "help" option has obviously been written by a PC junkie high on meths or Swahili, hard to tell really)... :crazy:
No, tar (=the Tape Archiver) was written sometime back in the 1960's for creating archives to record from mainframes onto big magnetic tape drives for backup purposes. The concept of a "PC" was not even invented back then.
But ok, I get it. Perhaps you should not dabble too much with this for now.
I or someone else might create an easier install solution for you later.
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But ok, I get it. Perhaps you should not dabble too much with this for now.
I or someone else might create an easier install solution for you later.
That would be neat if you could as I would really like to give AROS a go myself to see just what it is capable of so far... :)
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I dont have anything running AROS but I was wondering... How is the games compatability on AROS? Do old amiga 68k games run well on that platform? AGA Games? What about WHDLOAD? For most gamers that would be a deal breaker for the OS. I know that Morph and OS4.1 have specific games written for them but no real backwards compatability as I understand it to run old 68k amiga games. Maybe someone could clarify.
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I dont have anything running AROS but I was wondering... How is the games compatability on AROS? Do old amiga 68k games run well on that platform? AGA Games? What about WHDLOAD? For most gamers that would be a deal breaker for the OS. I know that Morph and OS4.1 have specific games written for them but no real backwards compatability as I understand it to run old 68k amiga games. Maybe someone could clarify.
for instance i was able to run aros port of xinvaders3d, a game in concept similar to famous battlezone, on an a4k/aga. admittedly it looked like a slideshow. ive made a 68k port of this game some time ago dependant on a limited set of x11 libraries available there, and it worked quite well on chunky, never tried on planar though, dont even think it would work. conclusion is aros is surely bale to give you what os3.x gives since games do not make frequent system calls or maybe better. at this point limited to original amiga hardware ecs/ocs/aga it will rather disappoint.
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@Franko
Very odd, I can't find the boot 68k disk on the AROS website... here is my build:
http://www.cutiemish.com/bootdisk-amiga-m68k.adf
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Ok I went to the site and downloaded the following file :-
AROS-20110524-amiga-m68k-system.tar.bz2
Problem number 1:- As seems to be typical these days for things that folk have written or archived using a PC, the filename is TOO LONG for it to be recognised on a REAL Amiga... :(
...
right, its sometimes difficult to find a right tool on amiga. still i managed to download full svn repositories, so it should be possible to unarc a tar.gz or whatever it is on an amiga. lemme take look.
PS: Who is "Wawa" is he a hobbit that didn't make it into the films... :confused:
i go by nicks like "wawa" or "wawrzon" on a number of amiga sites, just for a clarification. i bet you will recognize me when met another place.
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@Franko
Very odd, I can't find the boot 68k disk on the AROS website... here is my build:
http://www.cutiemish.com/bootdisk-amiga-m68k.adf
Thank you very much for that Bloodline, just download it and gonna try it now, much appreciated... :)
PS:I'll be back in a while to either...
Let you know how good it is... :)
or
How bad it is... :(
Or
Just to say something that makes no sense at all... :D
Place your bets now... ;)
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@Franko
Very odd, I can't find the boot 68k disk on the AROS website... here is my build:
http://www.cutiemish.com/bootdisk-amiga-m68k.adf
@bloodline, franko:
its contained in the "distfiles" directory of aros68k archive
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right, its sometimes difficult to find a right tool on amiga. still i managed to download full svn repositories, so it should be possible to unarc a tar.gz or whatever it is on an amiga. lemme take look.
i go by nicks like "wawa" or "wawrzon" on a number of amiga sites, just for a clarification. i bet you will recognize me when met another place.
Cheers Wawrzon, I'll give the ADF Bloodline kindly supplied first... :)
PS: Wawa... hmm... sounds more like an ewok than a hobbit now that I think about it, need to have a look through me Star Wars collection and see if I can find you... :)
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Cheers Wawrzon, I'll give the ADF Bloodline kindly supplied first... :)
PS: Wawa... hmm... sounds more like an ewok than a hobbit now that I think about it, need to have a look through me Star Wars collection and see if I can find you... :)
My build is quite old, so after trying mine... give the one in the latest build a go as stated by wawrzon.
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@franko:
file name length is mainly a limitation of used file system on amiga. you can use pfs3
http://aminet.net/disk/misc/PFS3_53.lha
which has become open source and freeware these days.
install it on a partition, watch for the right dostype. then consult pfs3.guide and set the right filename lengt with pfs3directory../tools/setfnsize from the shell.
should be enough guidance for an old amigan. if you need a step-by step i will return to it.
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Cheers Wawrzon, I'll give the ADF Bloodline kindly supplied first... :)
PS: Wawa... hmm... sounds more like an ewok than a hobbit now that I think about it, need to have a look through me Star Wars collection and see if I can find you... :)
its short for polish "wawrzyniec", means "laurent". lol. best use the adf from the current nightly. use adf2disk from aminet to decompress it to a floppy. older versions may interact strangely with current aros build.
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Ok... First off thanks to Bloodline for the AROS ADF to let me see for myself just what this thing is all about... :)
I thought I'd mark the occasion of me actually using a different OS on me miggy by making a wee video of the whole process from start to finish... :)
(felt a bit like christmas actually)... :)
However... It didnae wurk... :(
Nowt but a quick greenish flash and a never ending black screen... :(
Oh well you've read the posts, now watch the movie... :)
(popcorn is optional)... :)
AROS (Not) on me A1200, a story of adventure & excitement that ended in tragedy and epic failure... :)
(soundtrack not available on any good record labels... thank gawd)... :)
[youtube]Vtg1412W48Q[/youtube]
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Hmmm, you'll need to disable your HD and blizzard board, as I had to do the same to get it to boot. It seems to work best with older software at the moment :)
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@bloodline:
??
why dont you check the current nightly, and its softkick image?
i booted 1200/blizzard60 with aros no problems few days ago last time. not disabling anything. you just have to choose df0: as your boot device in early startup to softkick from floppy (and best have installed aros on highest priority boot partition on hd).
i have no blizzard scsi, so used internal ide, but toni assured me this work too.
the problem is with a4ks, especially csppc, this is just becoming supported, but 1200 was no problem when i first tried.
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@ Bloodline
Tried all the things you suggested in the PM but still no luck... :(
Just realised from your post there "that I'm a diddy" spent all last night trying to get it to work on my Blizzard 060/PPC for the simple reason of the ".elf" in the filename which always make me automatically think that this is PPC software and therefore I needed to run it on my PPC board (which is pretty dumb of me cos the whole point is that this is the 68k version). doh...
Now I'll give it a try one my plain Blizzard 060 or my plain Blizzard 030 (or any of the others I have around) and see if it works on those, cos I think myself it has something to do with the BPPC board... oh well... if at first you don't succeed put in ra boot and then ra heid... :)
@ Wawrzon
I'll need to try downloading one the other versions again and see if my mac can unarchive them instead... :)
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@Franko. I don't know what's scarier. The Amiga crashing or the commentary :roflmao:
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@ Bloodline
Tried all the things you suggested in the PM but still no luck... :(
Just realised from your post there "that I'm a diddy" spent all last night trying to get it to work on my Blizzard 060/PPC for the simple reason of the ".elf" in the filename which always make me automatically think that this is PPC software and therefore I needed to run it on my PPC board (which is pretty dumb of me cos the whole point is that this is the 68k version). doh...
Now I'll give it a try one my plain Blizzard 060 or my plain Blizzard 030 (or any of the others I have around) and see if it works on those, cos I think myself it has something to do with the BPPC board... oh well... if at first you don't succeed put in ra boot and then ra heid... :)
@ Wawrzon
I'll need to try downloading one the other versions again and see if my mac can unarchive them instead... :)
@Franko
I've not tried a newer build yet, but my old ADF image really didn't like my BlizzPPC board... Which I have now replaced with my Blizzard 1230 IV... That's much happier.
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@Franko. I don't know what's scarier. The Amiga crashing or the commentary :roflmao:
That's nothing you should try listening the bugger all the time, never shuts up so he does... ;)
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I voted AROS because it is open source and will therefore not die as long as there are amiga addicted programmers out there . Although i think the best way forward would be if AROS and MorphOS would and could join forces. Mayby they could form AMOS :)
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franko, listen, ive mentioned above that cyberstorm ppc is a troublemaker here. it has not bootstraped aros last time i tried. it can be easily assumed blizzard ppc will be a similar culprit. replace your accel wit a pure 68k and it will work most likely.
besides, i think these issues are ironed out soon, toni is working on it.
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We Interrupt This Thread To Bring You An Important News Flash...
[youtube]ylwHVczjdyQ[/youtube]
We Now Hand You Back To Your Normal Viewing...
@ Bloodline & Wawrzon
I didn't get a chance yet to try out Bloodlines ADF on one of my other miggies yet but I'll be testing it out shortly on an plain 030 & 060 A1200... :)
Hopefully this time it'll work and I'll let you know what the results are... :)
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I love it.
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@ Bloodline & Wawrzon
Ok just tried to use Bloodlines ADF on the following setups but all with the same results:- Green Flash followed by a black screen, no floppy activity at all (not even a click in the floppy)... :(
Blizzard060/PCC 256MB RAM
Blizzard060 60Mhz 128MB RAM
Blizzard030 MKIV 50Mhz 64MB RAM
Blizzard030 MKIII 50Mhz 32MB RAM
GVP30 MKIV 50Mhz 4MB RAM
VIPER030 28Mhz 32MB RAM
MBX 1200z 4 & 8MB RAM
A1207 4 & 8 MB RAM
Thought I'd take a pic of me boards seen as I had dug them all out... :)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Amiga%20Pics/AcceleratorsRAM.jpg)
(just realised I've lost one me 4/8MB RAM boards, can't find it anywhere, how the frig can you lose a RAM Board... :()
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@ Bloodline & Wawrzon
Ok just tried to use Bloodlines ADF on the following setups but all with the same results:- Green Flash followed by a black screen, no floppy activity at all (not even a click in the floppy)... :(
Blizzard060/PCC 256MB RAM
Blizzard060 60Mhz 128MB RAM
Blizzard030 MKIV 50Mhz 64MB RAM
Blizzard030 MKIII 50Mhz 32MB RAM
GVP30 MKIV 50Mhz 4MB RAM
VIPER030 28Mhz 32MB RAM
MBX 1200z 4 & 8MB RAM
A1207 4 & 8 MB RAM
Thought I'd take a pic of me boards seen as I had dug them all out... :)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af79/frankosamiga/Amiga%20Pics/AcceleratorsRAM.jpg)
(just realised I've lost one me 4/8MB RAM boards, can't find it anywhere, how the frig can you lose a RAM Board... :()
Weird, I have the same Blizz 030 mkIV with 32Meg
How long did you let it sit for? Also as soon as the machine resets get the softkick floppy out of the drive (the faster you can do this the better)! :)
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I voted other. I would have said 4.0 but it is not compatable with classic machines. Classic Amiga's are my main area of interest in the Amiga world. I guess my vote goes to 3.9.
+1 though ofcourse os4 is perfectly compatible with my classic machine.
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Weird, I have the same Blizz 030 mkIV with 32Meg
How long did you let it sit for? Also as soon as the machine resets get the softkick floppy out of the drive (the faster you can do this the better)! :)
Tried all sorts of things, waiting for up to 5 minutes, being as quick as possible taking the floppy out, inserting another bootable floppy as quickly as possible, tested it using two different A1200 motherboard revisions, tried it with 3.0 & 3.1 ROMS...
Strange thing is there is no sign of life on the floppy drive at all (ie: no lights or even the faintest of motor sounds or clicking noises) just the green flash then nothing... :confused:
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Tried all sorts of things, waiting for up to 5 minutes, being as quick as possible taking the floppy out, inserting another bootable floppy as quickly as possible, tested it using two different A1200 motherboard revisions, tried it with 3.0 & 3.1 ROMS...
Strange thing is there is no sign of life on the floppy drive at all (ie: no lights or even the faintest of motor sounds or clicking noises) just the green flash then nothing... :confused:
I'll upload a newer build for you later.
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@ Bloodline & Wawrzon
Ok just tried to use Bloodlines ADF on the following setups but all with the same results:- Green Flash followed by a black screen, no floppy activity at all (not even a click in the floppy)... :(
Which file systems are loaded from the boot disk ? Some seem to cause problems for AROS.
greets,
Staf.
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IMHO any question should qualify the terms used in the question first.
If I asked you all for example "Do you believe in God? " I would expect a different reply depending upon how I defined the word "God". If I said "Do you believe in a giant man who sits on a cloud?" or "Do you believe in a conscious universe?" for example.
This being the case, I ask, what do you mean by "forward"? and how are you defining "Amiga"?
Tell me this and I can give you an opinion, until then I say PANCAKES!
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IMHO any question should qualify the terms used in the question first.
If I asked you all for example "Do you believe in God? " I would expect a different reply depending upon how I defined the word "God". If I said "Do you believe in a giant man who sits on a cloud?" or "Do you believe in a conscious universe?" for example.
This being the case, I ask, what do you mean by "forward"? and how are you defining "Amiga"?
Tell me this and I can give you an opinion, until then I say PANCAKES!
VERY well put (I believe in a conscious universe). Frankly, i don't see one way forward. I'm glad there is a multiplicity of choices.
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@aros supporters:
now, that aros unquestionably leads the way (at least on this site) how about to factually support the development where possible? im talking about testing and contributing, whatever you can think of. would be great to have it somewhere along the way to where mos currently is.
This is quite funny really; most people here seem to feel the same way that I do on this subject but don't actually feel compelled to jump onboard the AROS bandwagon for some reason.
Or maybe only AROS user's like voting in polls?
;)
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I'll upload a newer build for you later.
Cheers Bloodline that would be much appreciated if you get the chance... :)
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Which file systems are loaded from the boot disk ? Some seem to cause problems for AROS.
greets,
Staf.
On most of my Amigas it would be FastFileSystem V45 & SFS that are stored on the RDB... :)
But that doesn't seem to be the problem as the same thing happens when tested with Amigas with no HD connected... :(
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IMHO any question should qualify the terms used in the question first.
If I asked you all for example "Do you believe in God? " I would expect a different reply depending upon how I defined the word "God". If I said "Do you believe in a giant man who sits on a cloud?" or "Do you believe in a conscious universe?" for example.
This being the case, I ask, what do you mean by "forward"? and how are you defining "Amiga"?
Tell me this and I can give you an opinion, until then I say PANCAKES!
Nah... it was a simple enough question really... :)
I leave talking about this Gawd geezer, thingy, wotsit for the Coffee House as he/it seems to pop in there quite often... :)
As for "forward" read "future"... :)
As for "Amiga" read "Whatever you consider to be an Amiga"... :)
As for "PANCAKES" then that'll do nicely... ;)
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The problem with AROS is lack of so many things. There isn't enough software. The looks aren't very slick at all, it feels more like OS 3.9 than a NG AmigaOS. Offcourse no way to run old software other than through UAE, at least with icaros there are folders, within folders, within folders to find an application.
I think that they got a long way to go before it will be good enough to compete with AOS or MOS.
Also different kind of icons everywhere makes it feel like something that was put together with bits and pieces from everywhere. It feels like a bad Linux distro.
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The problem with AROS is lack of so many things. There isn't enough software. The looks aren't very slick at all, it feels more like OS 3.9 than a NG AmigaOS. Offcourse no way to run old software other than through UAE, at least with icaros there are folders, within folders, within folders to find an application.
I think that they got a long way to go before it will be good enough to compete with AOS or MOS.
Also different kind of icons everywhere makes it feel like something that was put together with bits and pieces from everywhere. It feels like a bad Linux distro.
Erm... I'm getting right confused here... :confused:
I was under the impression that I have simply been trying to get AROS to work on my Amiga's and it was nothing more than basically a ROM image file to replace the Amiga's real ROM into fast memory... :confused:
So if it is meant to be just that then why would It need to run UAE (as this would make the whole thing pointless on a real Amiga), I thought the whole point of AROS was to replace the original Amiga Kickstart ROM with a version that is copyright free and freely distributable and not some totally different version of the Amiga's OS like OS4 and MorphOS are...
If AROS 68k is going to be like OS4 or MorphOS then I think I'll give it a miss as I don't want my Amiga's looking like either of them... :confused:
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aros 68k is going to be/is binary compatible, any other aros platform - certainly not. (transparent) emulation would have to be used (which is in works as far as i understand) which is exactly how mos and os4 dealt with it.
@franko: so there is no need for uae on aros68k of course. that wouldnt make sense.
@hotrod: whats wrong with os3.1 as base? i dont see that much that os 3.5-3.9 added to that, except some minor functionality that aros provides nevertheless and some ugly icons. besides the looks of os4 are not that much better too, the icons and the default skin especially. and the functionality of its workbench reminds me of the times of 3.x as well. not that it was sooo bad.
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Erm... I'm getting right confused here... :confused:
I was under the impression that I have simply been trying to get AROS to work on my Amiga's and it was nothing more than basically a ROM image file to replace the Amiga's real ROM into fast memory... :confused:
So if it is meant to be just that then why would It need to run UAE (as this would make the whole thing pointless on a real Amiga), I thought the whole point of AROS was to replace the original Amiga Kickstart ROM with a version that is copyright free and freely distributable and not some totally different version of the Amiga's OS like OS4 and MorphOS are...
If AROS 68k is going to be like OS4 or MorphOS then I think I'll give it a miss as I don't want my Amiga's looking like either of them... :confused:
@Franko
AROS is an AMIGA LIKE NG-OS for any platform - it's not an AmigaOS 3.9 or AmigaOS 4.x - it's a more modern rendition of AmigaOS 3.1 but with support for standard modern hardware straight from the box and not requiring multi-patches.
It was always the plan to bring it to the Amiga original hardware as a replacement of the ROM and OS, but keeping binary compatibility - So it will replace the kickstart and that should be enough.
That's how it currently works, and that's how it will be for Classic Amiga HW.
Running E-UAE does not make much sense, and I can't see where would you get that idea!... Only if you wished to run very specific software (very tied to one specific processor/ROM/custom chip) from OS. Even then there's whdload which is reported to work (AFAIK)...
I've only run on WinUAE, and I have to say that it works wonderfully. Never run on Amiga HW directly (none of my A1200 or A4000 are working), but reports have been made, and work is being done to get it working on all possibilities and at a decent performance - right now, AFAIK, it's not brilliant but it's getting there.
As for the future, Classic hardware will perish (simple fact of life), but other architectures will exist and hopefully AROS will embrace most of them.
Maybe someone will add support for PPC cards for Amiga Classic hw, but even these are very few, and not produced any more - so not much life expectancy there (except if someone starts producing PPC accelerator cards in the near future)...
Natami is the only project with some interesting prospects, but even this has to fill its niche and then time will tell about it's evolution.
AROS is not tied to PPC or 68k or even X86... that's a good IMO - Other options are tied to what seem dead platforms architecture.
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@ Wawrzon & Hardwired
I thought so, it gets a wee bit confusing though when folk start talking of AROS & UAE together (I have to keep in mind that my main/only interest in AROS is on the 68k side of things)... :)
Having disassembled the real 3.1 ROMS years ago and modifying them for my own use it became clear to me that although the code in them was pretty efficient there was still quite a bit of scope left in them to be optimised a touch further... :)
For example there a couple of hundred lines of code in the 3.1 ROMS like these...
$f8e00 bra.l $f8e04
$f8e04 rts
or
$f8e00 bra.s $f8e02
$f8e02 rts
Now by simply changing all of these bra.l & bra.s to rts, then the cumulative effect (all be it in milliseconds) produces a very slight speed increase in the day to day execution of the ROMS routines (as SysInfo verifies) but just changing these also leave the the ROM 100% backward compatible... :)
There are other things I've changed in the ROMS I use including some patched with BlizzKick modules which all lead to an overall system speed increase when using ROM images and every bit of extra speed you can squeeze out of any Amiga system can only be a good thing... :)
But I believe AROS 68k is more aimed at producing a copyright free ROM image and adding/updating extra features into the ROM image that although this might not make it 100% compatible with all old programs/ games that make direct calls to specific ROM addresses the simple fact that it will be copyright free and may include improved/new features make it a very worthwhile way forward indeed especially for the like of the NatAmi which I really hope make it into production... :)
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Ok even though that's total gobbeldygook to me, I spotted the word ZIP in there so perhaps one of the ZIP unarchivers I have on my miggy will be able to open this mysterious box of tricks, I'll give it a go... :)
Still pretty dumb though (and just plain lazy) archiving things for a real Amiga and not bothering to make sure the filename is 30 chars or less so that it can be recognised on a real Amiga... ;)
It's like a DVD I once bought on eBAY with some 16,000 C64 games on it, they all had filenames of incredible lengths and I had to write my own program that could handle these long filenames and convert them to 30 chars or less as they were copied across to the Amigas HD... :)
Why do folk who do stuff on PC's that they hope to be used on a real Amiga forget the very simple fact that the Amiga can't handle these silly long filenames they give them... :rolleyes:
Hi,
@Franko,
Well Franko old friend, have you tried to talk to today's youth, ever ask them if they heard of an Amiga, well 1 out of 10 remembers it, the other 9 says I thought it was some Spanish word, and didn't have a clue.
Now if we take all this new info and examine it, that is why people who use PC's give it long file names. The other 90% do it because if you remember back in the old days when the PC's had 8 character file names with 3 character identification files, we always told them to upgrade their file names,
Well payback is a MF
smerf
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@Franko
Yeah, on a Real Amiga (tm) AROS is simply a free Kickstart replacement. That is Toni's (one of the two key AROS68k developers) aim.
If one wishes, then they can use AROS's extra features, but that is optional, and I expect most users of AROS68k will just use it as a free alternative to the old Commodore ROMs.
Feel free to download the AROS sources and build yourself a custom Kickstart to suit your own needs.
The issue we need to workout now is, why doesn't it boot your machine?
You have AGA.
You have 020.
You have 4+Meg of fast RAM.
I can't see why your machine doesn't work... Are you using an Amiga International or a Commodore A1200?
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@ Wawrzon & Hardwired
I thought so, it gets a wee bit confusing though when folk start talking of AROS & UAE together (I have to keep in mind that my main/only interest in AROS is on the 68k side of things)... :)
Having disassembled the real 3.1 ROMS years ago and modifying them for my own use it became clear to me that although the code in them was pretty efficient there was still quite a bit of scope left in them to be optimised a touch further... :)
For example there a couple of hundred lines of code in the 3.1 ROMS like these...
$f8e00 bra.l $f8e04
$f8e04 rts
or
$f8e00 bra.s $f8e02
$f8e02 rts
Now by simply changing all of these bra.l & bra.s to rts, then the cumulative effect (all be it in milliseconds) produces a very slight speed increase in the day to day execution of the ROMS routines (as SysInfo verifies) but just changing these also leave the the ROM 100% backward compatible... :)
There are other things I've changed in the ROMS I use including some patched with BlizzKick modules which all lead to an overall system speed increase when using ROM images and every bit of extra speed you can squeeze out of any Amiga system can only be a good thing... :)
But I believe AROS 68k is more aimed at producing a copyright free ROM image and adding/updating extra features into the ROM image that although this might not make it 100% compatible with all old programs/ games that make direct calls to specific ROM addresses the simple fact that it will be copyright free and may include improved/new features make it a very worthwhile way forward indeed especially for the like of the NatAmi which I really hope make it into production... :)
Whinge, Whinge, Whinge.
If your so smart Franko maybe you could make your own and show them how to do it properly? ;)
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For example there a couple of hundred lines of code in the 3.1 ROMS like these...
$f8e00 bra.l $f8e04
$f8e04 rts
bra.l is 020+ so I find this rather unlikely. You possibly meant bra.w or jmp ?
$f8e00 bra.s $f8e02
$f8e02 rts
Just nitpicking, but bra.s *+2 instruction doesn't exist. ;-)
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@ Bloodline
They're all the original Commodore A1200's, tried everything I could think of but all with no luck I'm afraid... :(
PS: Which language are the sources written in, if it's C then the sources are not for me, Assembly Language only for me when it comes to writing Amiga progs... (Course I could just disassemble the AROS 68K ROM image myself into assembler source and start from there...) :)
@ Kesa
No whinging here mate, what you call whinging, I call me being happy... ;)
PS: how did you get on with "ginger"... :)
@ Smerf
Hi Smerf.... :)
Nah... today's youth (well most of em) are best not to be spoken too, much better just to slap em round the head with a wet fish, doesn't make them any more wiser but it sure is fun... :)
To be honest I never told anyone with PC back in the old 8 & 3 days to do anything, for the simple fact I never spoke to anybods that was dumb enough to own a PC back then... :)
Cheers
Franko
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bra.l is 020+ so I find this rather unlikely. You possibly meant bra.w or jmp ?
Just nitpicking, but bra.s *+2 instruction doesn't exist. ;-)
@ Piru
Sorry, I had just woke up and was still half asleep when I made that post... :o
Strictly speaking it was probably not accurate but on the other hand...
DevPAC which I use does allow you to enter the syntax "bsr.s" and most of the monitors & debuggers I use will display disassembled code as bsr.s $xxxxxx, I've yet to see a bit of disassembled code using monitors/debuggers that use "bsr.w" they always show up as "bsr.l" or bsr.s"... :)
However now I am wide awake then here's a better explantion of what I was talking about... :)
As far as I recall of the top of my head there were over 160 pieces of code in the 3.1 ROMS that I changed to give this miniscule speed increase and they covered things like.... (the addresses used are just for show here)
$f80000 jsr $xxxxxx
$f80006 rts
which I changed to
$f80000 jmp $xxxxxx
$f80006 rts
and
$f80000 jsr $1e(a6)
$f80004 rts
Which I changed to
$f80000 jmp $1e(a6)
$f80004 rts
and
$f80000 bsr $xxxxxx
$f80004 rts
Which I changed to
$f80000 bra $xxxxxx
$f80004 rts
As I say there were well over 160 such occurrences in the ROM and changing all of these like I did produced (all be it a very small) speed increase in the ROMS performance. It was only done as a test many years ago but as it worked perfectly without causing any incompatibilities or errors I have stuck with them over the years... :)
PS: I would have replied sooner but the site seems to be having a hairy fit at the moment... :(
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Isn't it odd that these polling results show AROS in the lead, but when you ask people what they're currently using AROS usually places last?
Does this reflect a general faith in what AROS could become?
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Isn't it odd that these polling results show AROS in the lead, but when you ask people what they're currently using AROS usually places last?
Does this reflect a general faith in what AROS could become?
Given the wording of the poll, I imagine so. AROS has a clearer path forward than the alternatives, hence I can see people (myself included) feeling it is going to be the way to go.
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Greetings,
I choose AROS... Hardware wise.
I eat pancakes and coffee for breakfast! :drink:
Cheers :D
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Isn't it odd that these polling results show AROS in the lead, but when you ask people what they're currently using AROS usually places last? Does this reflect a general faith in what AROS could become?
Iggy, Speaking for my own Aros vote, this is the case 'what it could become'. As far as what I actually use, it is 68K (divided between a3000 + winuae). Practically speaking, MorphOS is my immediate preferred direction. ;)
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@ Iggy
That's the way I see it myself, I'm not an AROS user but I do see it as the best way forward for future developments of things like the NatAmi and that's what I based my answer upon... :)
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Hi,
@all Amiga Enthusiasts,
Well I received my OS4.1 in the mail and I am reviewing it now.
OS 4.1 Total cost with shipping $149.00
AROS Total cost -- about 30 minutes download time $0.00
MorphOS -- about 30 minutes download time $ not analyzed.
OS 4.1 For the money you pay I would say not worth it, this software is worse than Windows, why do I say that, first after reading the book, my OS 3.9 which worked perfectly with IDEFIX (Thanks for the help Franko, I really appreciated it), bit when installing OS 4.1 on a clean HD, wouldn't work, the reason was I am running a 4 way IDE adapter with IDEFix97. After reading the book I found out you had to have your CD-ROM and Hard Drive on the 1st or main bank. At first I thought it was my Compact Flash drive, but after installing one of my old Hard Drives, I found out differently.
Now when I pay $149 for an OS I expect it to function without 6 hours of playing around to get it to work. Even Mr. Bill McEwen who supervised the OS 3.9 project did a better job then Hyperion. Look most Amiga users have the 4 way ide adapter in their computers, so why wasn't this programmed for in the making of OS 4.1, even windows tries to answer weird setups in their OS and the cost for their home edition is $49.00 cheaper. Will play with it some more today now that I found out how to get my ide interfaces to recognize my hard drives, (automatic on most OS's today, did not have this problem with either MorphOS, or AROS).
AROS -- loaded this on my Toshiba satellite -- loaded right in, I gave it bad points because I could not get the interned working because AROS doesn't see my NIC card. Well have to upgrade it because Windows XP doesn't see it either without the special drivers from their board, same thing with the sound, but one good note AROS did see the 1024 by 768 display where windows XP didn not without the drivers. AROS so far is my best choice ( it plays my favorite games Soliton and Mega ball without a glitch).
MorphOS -- Loaded up on my Amiga 1200 PPC, but I had no graphics, just a black screen, only reason I knew it loaded up is because I hit something with a mouse click and my hard drive light began to blink. Clicked around in different areas and hard drive would blink randomly. Sits in my last place because now I have to consider buying a G4 mini MAC to evaluate this OS. It could be good, it could be bad. Will leave it up to other Amiga nuts to evaluate and give me info.
OK some of you guys are going to scream smerf don't you read the Manuals or look at the specs. The answer is no, I base it on OS's that I use, Ubuntu and Windows, both of these I load with out any info, I put in the CD and follow the prompts, this is the true test of an easy to use OS, my theory is KISS (keep it simple stupid) if you can't follow this lead, then I don't want or need your software. OS's should be transparent to the buyer and user, if I need a college degree on how to load an OS then I don't want it.
So far as I am concerned OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 should be the main OS's for the Amiga community, OS 4.1 has wasted 6 hours of my time so far trying to get it to work, I have basically had to tear my A1200 apart and rebuild it just to get it to recognize my Hard Drive. At the cost of $149 with shipping this is not satisfactory.
smerf
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(http://www.amiga.org/forums/image.php?u=272&dateline=1305860242&type=thumb)
That's a great picture.
Thanks everybody for confirming my suspicions about the reason everyone was voting for AROS.
You know, I'm amazed and a little baffled by how optimistic Amiga users are.
But then, we're still here and we've got multiple derivatives (of AOS) to choose from.
Pretty remarkable for such a small community.
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Good reviews...
Thanx..
Not sure I agree with this statement:
Look most Amiga users have the 4 way ide adapter in their computers
But enough people probably have them that they should have been able to test it...
desiv
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(http://www.amiga.org/forums/image.php?u=272&dateline=1305860242&type=thumb)
That's a great picture.
Thanks everybody for confirming my suspicions about the reason everyone was voting for AROS.
You know, I'm amazed and a little baffled by how optimistic Amiga users are.
But then, we're still here and we've got multiple derivatives (of AOS) to choose from.
Pretty remarkable for such a small community.
If we weren't optimistic, we wouldn't still be around ;)
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Hi Smerf... :)
Very interesting to read a report from someone who has checked out all 3... have to say your conclusion at the end seems to be pretty reasonable for now with regard to OS3.5 & 3.9, although I still think AROS will solve a lot of problems in the future (if it ever gets completed and stable) for things like the NatAmi... :)
Cheers
Franko
@Iggy
Could you clarify what suspicions you have had confirmed please... :)
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Could you clarify what suspicions you have had confirmed please... :)
Just that people have high expectations for AROS (especially the 68K variant).
The X86 isn't at V1.0 yet (although it is advancing), so I'm not sure that your ideas (on modifying 3.1) aren't just as valid (as waiting for AROS68K to attain a similar level of functionality).
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Hi Smerf... :) Very interesting to read a report from someone who has checked out all 3... have to say your conclusion at the end seems to be pretty reasonable for now with regard to OS3.5 & 3.9, although I still think AROS will solve a lot of problems in the future (if it ever gets completed and stable) for things like the NatAmi... :) .....
I have checked 2 of the 3.
Icaros very recently. I confirm simplicity in getting things downloaded, burned to dvd, and immediately booting up on my Dell Precision M65 laptop. I have not installed onto a hard drive yet so my view is limited to live cd operations. But.. it was free and it was simple to get running. I think it is coming along. And the fact that it will exist on multiple hardware platforms is good. Problem with multiple platform ultimately becomes hardware support. So to a degree, Aros is a bit like Amithlon in finding the perfect hardware. I see this getting better in the future though.
MorphOS 2.0 on an Efika. Again, totally simple to install and get running. For this installation, I did it via their network method, a first for me. If I recall correctly, this is done by starting a boot image from a USB thumb drive. I plugged in a network cable, and got the full OS via network in completely automated fashion. Everything went without a hitch and I was soon greeted with a very polished OS. The only glitch to report was no sound. This was not an OS problem though, it turned out my Efika was the issue. I still am interested in Morph and am merely shopping the ideal Mac hardware for it. As for the tragic little Efika, I plan on using it to run a small Linux and hopefully link up to the Morph system via a VNC connection. Just to fill in software missing pieces for now.
I was a fan of Amithlon, still am I suppose. I was almost always an RTG video person so not having chipset compatibility not a deal breaker for me. I have located my Amithlon CD and am really wanting to put it on a new system as my former is long dead. In reading about kernel upgrades, etc... I see Amithlon still has a following since the last time I was in the game. I have a nice Xeon dual core cpu that runs natively at 3ghz. Perfect I'd say. I believe I have a compatible motherboard according to kernel4 author Mirlanca. I need to get this thing built. I used to be enamored with the preconfigured OS packages. But am no longer. I will hand build/upgrade the 3.9OS manually. As much as I like the new stuff, it is 68K that gets most of my time still.
I do play with UAE / 68K but am becoming disenchanted with it all. This includes setting everything up myself (better) or running AF2011 (worse). I run the A3000 but sparingly because it is getting so old anymore. I too look forward to Natami hardware. So many things become solved in this scenerio and it is new. How could I not want to trade my creaky a3000 in for a nice new natami? :)
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After reading a little more of this thread, I'd still say that starting over is the best way forward. Who wants to be stuck with all this outdated software? My 68030 can do a lot better than this, and it's a damned shame there's no OS that delivers what we should have :(
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Not to be blasphemous, but in looking at alternatives, don't forget Haiku (BeOS).
If you look at how AmigaOS was intended to go to a more object oriented design, Haiku starts looking pretty similar and it runs on both x86 and PPC with an ARM port in progress.
Like AOS it has a highly responsive UI, good multimedia capabilities, heavily threaded plus memory protection, AGP, PCI, PCI-e, USB, WiFi in progress, quite a few existing apps...
Many of the things we're trying to shoe-horn into the AOS3-like OS's are already there.
I dare say that had AmigaOS continued development, it would have had little more resemblance to AOS3.1 than BeOS does.
Edit: I forgot that Translators are pretty much a direct rip off of Datatypes.
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@ Rodomoc (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=6792)
Amithlon has always sounded very interesting. Could you let us know how the newest revision functions?
@ Thorham (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=6946)
I've always felt we could do better, but almost all users are going to want backwards compatibility. I used to manage a company that sold 68K based computers running Microware OS9. The micro kernel approach has always fascinated me (its one of the reasons I'm fond of MorphOS) and position independent re-entrant code can allow for some neat tricks (like processes sharing common modules).
AmigaOS is pretty neat, but a better OS could be built. However, what would the market be for it and how would you attract developers?
MOS and AOS4 are already facing this problem and I fear the market for a product like you're suggesting would be even smaller.
Frankly, I always wanted to see what I could do with a Sharp X68000, OS9, and a 68060 accelerator. Better graphics and sound than an Amiga and a more powerful OS. The trick would be getting a good GUI to run with it. Under OS9, all my company had was a XWindows/Motif like GUI called G-Windows.
Since the current company that owns OS9 (Radisys) is still updating the 68K version I may have to contact them. But I'd want a good GUI and a faster Disk I/O system to go with such a package.
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Now when I pay $149 for an OS I expect it to function without 6 hours of playing around to get it to work.
Oh dear - I'm sure I would have it running in 60 minutes inkl. potential hardware setup.
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@ Rodomoc (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=6792)
Amithlon has always sounded very interesting. Could you let us know how the newest revision functions?
Will do Iggy. I'm quite interested in getting this running again and having it take over for the tasks I perform on the A3000. Which are mainly editing and storage of family photos, and general screwing around. Amiga still excellent alternative for dealing with digital pictures in my opinion. We have so many, it is easier to just dedicate a computer to this task. Why not an Amiga?
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Will do Iggy. I'm quite interested in getting this running again and having it take over for the tasks I perform on the A3000. Which are mainly editing and storage of family photos, and general screwing around. Amiga still excellent alternative for dealing with digital pictures in my opinion. We have so many, it is easier to just dedicate a computer to this task. Why not an Amiga?
Very true. I have one system that is solely dedicated to pics, video and sound file. Doesn't require that much CPU power, just large drives.
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AmigaOS is pretty neat, but a better OS could be built. However, what would the market be for it and how would you attract developers?
I don't think those are really the point, at least not in the initial phases of development. Any new OS is going to start off as a hobby project, and remember the golden rules of small software development: "Every good work of software starts by scratching a developer's personal itch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar#Guidelines_for_creating_good_open_source_software) and "Large programs that work start off as small programs that work." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall's_law)
I don't think anything good is going to come out of trying to create a new OS around marketing considerations. Rather, you'd do better to find an OS paradigm that interests you, do your best to do a good implementation of it, and see if what you have interests anybody else. Remember, Linux started off as a college student's hobby project to learn 386 assembler!
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But, if and this is a mighty big if, you contribute anything to Linux won't you have to share it with the public?
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No, the GPL doesn't require you to redistribute your modified version of someone else's source - it just sets the terms under which you're allowed to if you do decide to.
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But, if and this is a mighty big if, you contribute anything to Linux won't you have to share it with the public?
Not necessarily...
If you use GPL code in your code, then basically yes..
But if you write a teriffic driver from scratch for say ... a video capture card, you can release it as binary only and you don't have to share the code with anyone.
Now, binary releases are problematic and you won't garner friends in the community, but you can do it. GPL doesn't mean everything is for everyone..
desiv
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But, if and this is a mighty big if, you contribute anything to Linux won't you have to share it with the public?
As mentioned: If you use code from a GPL project, then your resultant software must also be GPL.
However, open source and closed source can co-exist in a system. F.X. My linux system has closed source video card drivers, and games like Quakewars
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However, open source and closed source can co-exist in a system. F.X. My linux system has closed source video card drivers, and games like Quakewars
Exactly... I have several binary Linux games that are close source as well..
er..
(rm ~/BittorrentDLs/Quakewars_source.tgz :nervous: )
Yeah..
:lol:
desiv
(p.s. No, I don't have Quakewars source...)
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You aint gonna believe this but... :)
I've just found another shiny silver teaspoon inside an old shoe under me bed... :D
I found it when I was chasing a spider that ran under there after it stole me pizza... :)
We're happy... are you happy... :)
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aros 68k is going to be/is binary compatible, any other aros platform - certainly not. (transparent) emulation would have to be used (which is in works as far as i understand) which is exactly how mos and os4 dealt with it.
@franko: so there is no need for uae on aros68k of course. that wouldnt make sense.
@hotrod: whats wrong with os3.1 as base? i dont see that much that os 3.5-3.9 added to that, except some minor functionality that aros provides nevertheless and some ugly icons. besides the looks of os4 are not that much better too, the icons and the default skin especially. and the functionality of its workbench reminds me of the times of 3.x as well. not that it was sooo bad.
You make it sound like not much has happened between 3.1-4.1 which must be a joke or you not knowing what you're talking about. Regarding the icons for AOS 4.1 upd 2 I think they are beautiful.
Either way, AROS needs to get "minor functionality" added and look better. Not that it's all that is needed, it just doesn't feal mature enough yet and behind both aos and mos.
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You make it sound like not much has happened between 3.1-4.1 which must be a joke or you not knowing what you're talking about. Regarding the icons for AOS 4.1 upd 2 I think they are beautiful.
Either way, AROS needs to get "minor functionality" added and look better. Not that it's all that is needed, it just doesn't feal mature enough yet and behind both aos and mos.
I think we could cut that word 'minor' out of the paragraph. There are large gaps in AROS functionality. I like the project and think it has a great future, but as you've pointed out AOS4 and MOS are definitely more complete and polished.
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You make it sound like not much has happened between 3.1-4.1 which must be a joke or you not knowing what you're talking about. Regarding the icons for AOS 4.1 upd 2 I think they are beautiful.
Either way, AROS needs to get "minor functionality" added and look better. Not that it's all that is needed, it just doesn't feal mature enough yet and behind both aos and mos.
would like to hear about these groundbreaking features. usb2 anyone? firewire? overall fast accelerated 3d support? nice productivity package included? perhaps hardware compositing, skin system and windows shadows are worth to name?
beautiful icons, okay, they are acceptable if not much to my liking. and as i said, aros and glowicons are ugly too, no excuse, morphos would get a better overall note.
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would like to hear about these groundbreaking features. usb2 anyone? firewire? overall fast accelerated 3d support? nice productivity package included? perhaps hardware compositing, skin system and windows shadows are worth to name?
beautiful icons, okay, they are acceptable if not much to my liking. and as i said, aros and glowicons are ugly too, no excuse, morphos would get a better overall note.
>morphos would get a better overall note
USB2-yes
Firewire-soon
Fast 3d support-yes (and soon to be improved)
Productivity package-Something ALL NG systems could use
hardware composting-I want GPU acceleration myself
Skin system-many skin types (although Windows has us all beat)
Overall MorphOS does come out (in comparison) with a best feature set, but its been around longer.
AOS4 is steadily improving
And AROS is usable (although it still has more than a few rough edges).
Overall, its pretty amazing that we have 3 NG OS, good emulation, and continuing support for legacy hardware. Actually damned amazing for a 'dead' system.
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Overall, its pretty amazing that we have 3 NG OS, good emulation, and continuing support for legacy hardware. Actually damned amazing for a 'dead' system.
+1
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(double post)
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I think we could cut that word 'minor' out of the paragraph. There are large gaps in AROS functionality. I like the project and think it has a great future, but as you've pointed out AOS4 and MOS are definitely more complete and polished.
Not that I disagree with this, I think we need to keep in mind that MOS and OS4 are both profit driven products while AROS is a community or hobby based OS.
You can't expect one camp to keep up with the other if the resources and foundation are based off of a totally different structure.:hammer:
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Not that I disagree with this, I think we need to keep in mind that MOS and OS4 are both profit driven products while AROS is a community or hobby based OS.
You can't expect one camp to keep up with the other if the resources and foundation are based off of a totally different structure.:hammer:
Absolutely true. And while I was skeptical about AROS ever reaching what seemed to be pretty high goals, I'm not anymore.
AROS will soon reach V1.0. Icaros looks nice. I am impressed.
I expect this OS to continuously improve.