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AuthorTopic: RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?  (Read 3594 times)

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Offline Dandy

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2004, 08:29:43 AM »
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T_Bone wrote:
...
In the set of people who don't have schizophrenia, marijuana reduces the brains natural ability to produce and regulate antipsychotic chemicals.
...

Why would people, who don't have schizophrenia, need to produce antipsychotic chemicals at all?
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T_Bone wrote:
...marijuana just isn't good for you, and has negative effects on your brain.

Nonsense.
MaryJane starts up the brain - and that's exactly what mankind needs most urgently!

Giving todays techniques to a wide mass of humans (e.g. cars, guns) and making them use these *WITHOUT* thinking about the consequences first just for profit reasons has negative effects on our whole planet!

As it is not very reasonable to talk about things without having the faitest idea of what you are talking about, you should perhaps start using maryjane for a period of - lets say 30+ years - and then come back to me to discuss our experiences.
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T_Bone wrote:
The fact that marijuana doesn't make people violent isn't a good thing, it's just the absence of a bad thing.

But the fact that it calms down violent people and makes them peaceful and friendly is a good thing - isn't it?
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T_Bone wrote:
As a devils advocate ...

George double u B.?
 :-D
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T_Bone wrote:
...though, why should Marijuana be legal, when people like me, who have a legitamate need for certain drugs, have to go to a doctor to get them?

Why should it be legal in the US to sell maschine guns in the super market - possibly even to Teenies - while they are psychotic about possible terror assaults???
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T_Bone wrote:
 Why should a stoner get to take a recreational drug he can buy off the street legally, when I have to get special permission (a prescription) for drugs I *have* to have?

Why should a T_Bone get drugs at all (needed or not), while he is so valiantly against any form of drugs?
 :-?
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T_Bone wrote:
Why do medical marijuana advocates not care that I need a prescription for my drugs?

Perhaps just because they don't know you exist?
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T_Bone wrote:
And why marijuana? Opium isn't destructive to any organs in the body, even if addicted to it for decades. Why shouldn't that be legal as well? It's better for you than marijuana.

How can you know what is good for *ME* and what not?
We do not even know each other!
But good idea - I'll give Opium a try...
 :-P
(Gebt dem Opi Opium, denn Opium haut den Opi um!)
 :-D
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline KennyR

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2004, 08:45:48 AM »
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Dandy wrote:
Why would people, who don't have schizophrenia, need to produce antipsychotic chemicals at all?


Because they're the chemicals that have evolved to suppress primitive drives. Without them you wouldn't think much about cutting the head off a housecat to see how it bleeds, for instance.

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How can you know what is good for *ME* and what not?
We do not even know each other!


Because he (and me) are 99.9999999% genetically similar to you?

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But the fact that it calms down violent people and makes them peaceful and friendly is a good thing - isn't it?


Yeah, right, then they get down to the last snickers bar and all friggin' hell breaks loose!
 

Offline Dandy

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2004, 11:24:31 AM »
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KennyR wrote:
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Dandy wrote:
Why would people, who don't have schizophrenia, need to produce antipsychotic chemicals at all?

Because they're the chemicals that have evolved to suppress primitive drives. Without them you wouldn't think much about cutting the head off a housecat to see how it bleeds, for instance.

Hmmmm - as far as I understood what was written here, the psychotic people need these chemicals to suppress the symptoms of their illness.

And if they use cannabis products, you are afraid their receptors for these antipsychotic chemicals are blocked by THC.

May be - I don't know.
But as long as one is not psychotic that does not matter at all - or did I get something wrong?

But if one is psychotic and uses sedative Cannabis products instead of his own antipsychotic chemicals - I can't see what's wrong with that, as long as the effect remains the same...

But what do they need to suppress with antipsychotic chemicals, if they are not psychotic at all?
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KennyR wrote:
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Dandy wrote:
How can you know what is good for *ME* and what not?
We do not even know each other!

Because he (and me) are 99.9999999% genetically similar to you?

So you agree with him that Opium is better for you (and me) than cannabis?
O.K. - I'll give it a try!
 ;-)
KennyR wrote:
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Dandy wrote:
But the fact that it calms down violent people and makes them peaceful and friendly is a good thing - isn't it?

Yeah, right, then they get down to the last snickers bar and all friggin' hell breaks loose!

 :-?  :-?  :-?
I'm not sure if I fully got what this is meant to mean - please keep in mind that I'm not a native English speaker...
 :-?  :-?  :-?  
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2004, 11:51:09 AM »
anakirob wrote:
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Nobody cares about alcohol or opiates? Opiates are antipsychotics? People get more upset about weed than heroin?? Where the heck do you live?

If you would take another look at my post I DID NOT SAY "Nobody cares about opiates." I said nobody notices [the link between the disease and the substance abuse] because it's anti-psychotic.


You said nobody cares. You framed the context with the previous sentence that said nobody cares about alcohol because it's legal. You said that opiates are anti-psychotic  therefore nobody cares about it. What I was laughing at wasn't that you said that Opium was antipsychotic, but that that would be a reason that people don't care about heroin. People *DO* care obviously, even in regions where marijuana is legal heroin is still regarded as evil, so I was wondering where you were that tolerated heroin?

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And yes. Opium (morphine, heroine, etc.) ARE TOO anti-psych! Look it up if you do not believe me.
BTW...
I live in Australia (Tasmania), where most people speak english as their native language. If only you knew how to read it properly we would not have such poor communications :-P .
[Yankees don't speak proper English (but they like to believe they do), they speak American-English]


You don't understand my accent?  :lol:  Maybe I've been down south too long. ;-)
this space for rent
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2004, 12:24:15 PM »
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Dandy wrote:

Hmmmm - as far as I understood what was written here, the psychotic people need these chemicals to suppress the symptoms of their illness.


That's one reason for the presence of Anandamide, yes, but I doubt that's the only role it plays.

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And if they use cannabis products, you are afraid their receptors for these antipsychotic chemicals are blocked by THC.


THC doesn't block the receptors, it triggers them, causing the brain to think it's overproducing Anandomide, conditioning the brain to produce less in all instances where it feels the need to produce any at all. THC also destroys these receptors, so that even if the brain still is able to produce enough Anandamide in a situation it feels it needs to, the receptors won't be responsive to it.

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May be - I don't know.
But as long as one is not psychotic that does not matter at all - or did I get something wrong?


Depends... We know that schizophrenics who fare well are able to produce and respond to Anandomide quite well, while those that fare worse generally have rather low levels of Anandomide. What's still being studied is what role Anandomide deficiencies (or at least the lack of the ability to produce Anandomide) have on the developement on mental illness.

The problem is, there are no people that "are not psychotic." Everyone's brain is psychotic at times, that's the reason for the Anandomide system in the first place.

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But if one is psychotic and uses sedative Cannabis products instead of his own antipsychotic chemicals - I can't see what's wrong with that, as long as the effect remains the same...


The effect isn't the same. Schizophrenics symptoms are WORSE in the presence of THC, not better. THC only makes your brain THINK it's being flooded with Anandomide. Similar to the way Carbon Monoxide makes your brain THINK it's getting oxygen, but it isn't, yet you don't feel like you're suffocating, even though you're not getting enough oxygen.

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But what do they need to suppress with antipsychotic chemicals, if they are not psychotic at all?


The brain is always suseptible to psychosis, that's why the system is in place to deal with it. I guess the brain is like an OS, and Anandomide could be the Memory Protection. The lack of memory protection isn't necessarily bad if nothing happens, but without memory protection, if something misbehaves, the system gets corrupted.
[/quote]

[/quote]
So you agree with him that Opium is better for you (and me) than cannabis?
O.K. - I'll give it a try!
 ;-) [/quote]

Recreational use is harmfull obviously, but opiates are quite safe. the biggest threat from prescribed opiates is overdose... not of the opiates, but of the Tylenol added to it. (The APAP is Tylenol)

It's quite a shame really that opiates have been abused by those predisposed to chemical masterbation, causing the world to shun opiates as a painreliever, as it is quite safe and effective. I see people who take way more over the counter Tylenol or Advil than is healthy, when they could be taking an opiate under a doctors supervision and not kill their liver and kidneys the way the Tylenol and Advil do. Hell, someone on these boards posted a picture of empty tylenol wrappers he's used due to pain from a previous surgery, and I couldn't help but get angry at their doctor for not prescribing an effective painkiller, instead letting him take this over the counter garbage that is probably not even working too well, and who knows what it's doing to their liver?

No, I'm not really supportive of over the counter Opiates, but it makes MUCH more sense than over the counter Marijuana. Marijuana should be legal for other reasons... namely, it's a losing battle to treat it as a controlled substance.
this space for rent
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2004, 12:47:56 PM »
Dandy wrote:
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As it is not very reasonable to talk about things without having the faitest idea of what you are talking about, you should perhaps start using maryjane for a period of - lets say 30+ years - and then come back to me to discuss our experiences.


And if my experiences include schizophrenia, who wins? :lol:

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Quote

The fact that marijuana doesn't make people violent isn't a good thing, it's just the absence of a bad thing.

But the fact that it calms down violent people and makes them peaceful and friendly is a good thing - isn't it?


If someone's violent, they should probably be separated from the population, anyway these are the LAST people you'd want to have Anandomide deficiancies! :-)

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...though, why should Marijuana be legal, when people like me, who have a legitamate need for certain drugs, have to go to a doctor to get them?

Why should it be legal in the US to sell maschine guns in the super market - possibly even to Teenies - while they are psychotic about possible terror assaults???


That doesn't really address the question, why should marijuana be legal when I can't get the medicine I have a medical need for, legally, over the counter?

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 Why should a stoner get to take a recreational drug he can buy off the street legally, when I have to get special permission (a prescription) for drugs I *have* to have?

Why should a T_Bone get drugs at all (needed or not), while he is so valiantly against any form of drugs?
 :-?


I'm not against drugs. I take them every day :lol: [edit-  <- prescribed] I'm even for the legalization of marijuana, as I think the war on drugs costs too much and is doing more harm than good. That doesn't mean that I support drug use though. The drug war, however, has created a medical backlash in the prescribing of scheduled drugs, where people who need certain medications have a difficult time getting them. Try going to your doctor and getting an Opiate painkiller without added Tylenol. They probably won't do it, telling you that the tylenol must be there to prevent you from using the drug recreationally. basically the medical community doesn't mind if you kill your liver, so long as they can be sure you won't take the opiates in exessive ammounts.
this space for rent
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2004, 01:32:32 PM »
Can I say to this that an addiction of Marihuana is different than other addictions?
For instance, alcohol addicts need more and more alcohol to get drunk
but a marihuana addict need less marihuana to get high than someone who isn't addicted.
And there are no physical consequences when quitting the addiction.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline KennyR

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2004, 01:43:51 PM »
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Speel wrote:
And there are no physical consequences when quitting the addiction.


That's not what the medical profession says. Side effects of removing a marijuana addiction include depression and anxiety, probably because of the lack of the calm feeling the drug gives. I can't speak from experience because, although its abuse is almost the norm here, nobody ever really got addicted to it. They just had a rare chance of jumping from smoking it to smoking heroin, if it was available. (Possibly the psychotic effect, who knows.)
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2004, 03:06:39 PM »
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Can I say to this that an addiction of Marihuana is different than other addictions?
For instance, alcohol addicts need more and more alcohol to get drunk
but a marihuana addict need less marihuana to get high than someone who isn't addicted.


Probably due to the fact that there's less anandomide production capability to supress after years of fooling the brain into thinking levels were too high.

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And there are no physical consequences when quitting the addiction.


Other than the fact anandomide production capability is supressed. :-)

But again, there's no reason marijuana should be addictive. Your brain doesn't maintain anandomide levels unless it feels you are psychitoc. There's a good chance that those who are "addicted" to marijuana, are maintaining anandomide levels because they are psychotic. That's the only time a healthy brain maintains it's anandomide levels.

*IF* Marijuana is truely addictive, that means that it does indeed cause anandomide to be maintained, in which case Marijuana does indeed cause mental illness, such as schizophrenia. There is no other medical explanation for the maintenance of an anandomide baseline.
this space for rent
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2004, 03:53:39 PM »
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KennyR wrote:
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Speel wrote:
And there are no physical consequences when quitting the addiction.


That's not what the medical profession says. Side effects of removing a marijuana addiction include depression and anxiety, probably because of the lack of the calm feeling the drug gives.
Yeah, that's what I've seen too, but I said physical consequences. Now you can discuss about how physical these kinda consequences are, but I call these mental consequences because after these depressions and so, ppl become completely normal again (at least, from what I've seen), while it's really not the case with other drugs (like alcohol).
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2004, 04:47:50 PM »
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
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KennyR wrote:
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Speel wrote:
And there are no physical consequences when quitting the addiction.


That's not what the medical profession says. Side effects of removing a marijuana addiction include depression and anxiety, probably because of the lack of the calm feeling the drug gives.
Yeah, that's what I've seen too, but I said physical consequences. Now you can discuss about how physical these kinda consequences are, but I call these mental consequences because after these depressions and so, ppl become completely normal again (at least, from what I've seen), while it's really not the case with other drugs (like alcohol).


If the expression of anxiety and depression in a patient due to termination of a chemical supplement isn't a physical consequence, what is a physical consequence?
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2004, 05:50:48 PM »
damage to intestines, or parts of the brain wich are damaged, you name it.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline T_Bone

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2004, 07:00:27 PM »
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
damage to intestines, or parts of the brain wich are damaged, you name it.


The whole reason anxiety and depression are expressed by the patient is that the anandomide receptors and the production of, have been damaged, physically. The physical damage happened chemically, sure, as opposed to a sledge hammer, but the damage is physical.

In the case of the receptors, permanently. In the case of the ability to produce anandomide, so far nobody has seen a case where someone who has previously been deficient has regained that ability, but that doesn't mean it's not possible, we just haven't seen it happen.
this space for rent
 

Offline anakirob

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2004, 07:37:55 AM »
Woah, It seems I touched a nerve with this topic. Anyway, I have done a bit of research (and still doing more). And it seems that medicinal usage of THC-25 is not such a ridiculous idea.

Possible medicinal uses for Tetrahydracanibonol Delta 29 (THC-29:the main psychoactive molecule in buds) include:

Anti-psychotic!? - just as opiates which bind to endorphine receptors block pain, THC-29 can block psychoses by binding to the (anawhatever) receptors.

Anti-Depressant - this works in much the same way (it would seem to me that depression must be a kind of psychoses).

Appetite stimulant - but I think surely anorexics would be harder to fool than that.

Muscle relaxant - to anyone familiar with the drug, this is obvious.

Sleep aid - after the initial high wears off, THC-29 makes one drowsy. Indeed, an addict will find it difficult to sleep without it.

Analgesic - although THC-29 does not block pain signals like opiaum / paracetemol / ibupropen. It does reduce the wavelength of the pain impulse considerably, and in a way which no other drug known to man (at this point in time) can.

Besides, what's so bad about taking a substance for recreational purposes anyway? I drink coffee every morning, and rarely does a day go by when I don't consume at least 50g of chocholate.

Offline the_leander

RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2004, 05:52:09 AM »
In my extreme youth I experimented with quite a few drugs, including, but not limited to Ganja, Liberty Cap Mushrooms (so called magic mushrooms) and heroin (with the latter, I found I suffered a massive allergic reaction to, and found the same again when I was injected with morphine in hospital awaiting treatment... seems I'm one of these very few who are allergic to something in opiate based drugs...)

I have also been at one point an Alcoholic, and no I'm not talking drinking to stupid amounts every friday night, I'm talking a couple of bottles of cheep plonk, a few beers and maybe as much as half a bottle of rum per day, every day. I didn't start out like that, it as a few here, and a few there, but it built up to that at the end.

When you wake up and your only thoughts are "Where and when am I going to get my next drink" and realise you're thinking that and the ramafications therein, you know you have a serious problem. I know its a cliche, but its true.

Comming off that amount of stuff wasn't easy, indeed it was perhaps one of the most unpleasant experiences I've yet had.

Can I drink now and stop when I've had enough? Yes, but its not easy, and I have to be fully aware of what I'm doing, in as much as counting what I've had, comparing it to what I know I could drink, and making sure what I have and what I could take are very different figures (maybe a glass or two of wine once in a blue moon, then walk away). But tbh I'd rather not have to put that much concentration into a night out, its easier just to stick to soft drinks or Tea (or at a pinch, coffee.)

I still have vague recollections to this day of what an A-hole I was when I was a drinker, and occational flashbacks to things I can't for the life of me pin down.

In short, its not something I can honestly recommend to anyone, not even people I dislike. I suspect many "recreational" drugs with prelonged or heavy use would do much the same for the person as Alcohol did to me. Which is to say utterly fubar my life for several years, and effectively leave a very large question mark on what I did during those years.

I know why I started drinking, but that isn't for public discussion.

Blessed Be,
Alan Fisher - the_leander

[SIGPIC]http://www.extropia.co.uk/theleander/[/SIGPIC]