RE: Schizophrenia, drugs link?

[X-ray]

@ AccyD:

That comment of mine 'that was good' was aimed at Blobzie's 'I'm in two minds' reference to the schizophrenia, not any lewd undertone you might have dreamed up.

[KennyR]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
If we take a look at the past, humans have always lived with drugs, all kinds of drugs (no not XTC or LSD, but maybe natural drugs wich equals these).
So it has to be that the human body/brain has adapted to many of these drugs.

It hasn't, or they wouldn't have an effect. Many of the things in our diet that effect other animals but don't effect us have been 'evolved around'. For example, feeding chocolate to dogs is a good way to kill them. The thiobromine that does this has little to no effect on us.

Certainly there hasn't been long enough or wide enough usage by humans of recreational drugs to evolve a response. But be sure if that response did evolve it would either cancel out the effect of the drug, or make us totally dependent, and so an evolutionary dead-end. Either way, it's not a positive thing.

[AccyD]

@X-Ray

I wasn't meaning that you were making a lewd comment, the childishness of the comment was the fact that you are applauding the comment by Blobrana about a serious mental illness.

P.S. How the hell did you think I thought you were being lewd???

[X-ray]

Well, AccyD, since you directed your "..these jokes were funny when I was 12.." at my response to Blobzie, rather than at Blobzie herself who made the comment, I assumed you found some hidden lewd meaning in my reply to her, which of course is non-existent.

Thanks for outlining what it was that you found childish. Why I liked Blobzie's comment is because she linked the three letter acronym discussion to the schizophrenia discussion cleverly. I stand by it, it was good. If you reckon I'm childish for saying that, then I think you have misinterpreted my reply to Blobzie.

[Cyberus]

KennyR wrote:
 For example, feeding chocolate to dogs is a good way to kill them.

/Me pictures Kenny wandering around feeding chocolate to unsuspecting dogs...

[cecilia]

X-ray wrote:
Thanks for outlining what it was that you found childish. Why I liked Blobzie's comment is because she linked the three letter acronym discussion to the schizophrenia discussion cleverly. I stand by it, it was good. If you reckon I'm childish for saying that, then I think you have misinterpreted my reply to Blobzie.

hey, i got the joke and also found it clever and funny.

anyway, one of the main reasons i've never taken drugs is because i like my brain healthy and working at top condition.

but, i have noticed that some people seem to self-medicate because there seems to be something different going on with their brain chemistry. that is, they seem irritated with some internal condition and take drugs to try and balence this irritation out. and i get this sense from long talks with people who are alcoholic (members of AA, so not drinking now, but have spend years trying to understand their condition), and other drug users who are not taking drugs now. so, THEY think they self-medicated.

if americans could get away from making value judgements about people taking drugs and actually try and figure out what the heck is going on, we might actually find the light at the end of the tunnel on this issue. but as long as people want to throw everyone in jail, nothing will improve and the wrong people will make money on the broken lives of drug users.

[anakirob]

@cecilia: you are the only person posted to this thread who seems to get the point I was trying to make. (and you probably didn't even read the original post :lol: )

Shizophrenia, we all seem to agree, is a chemical imbalance in the brain. This imbalance is distressing to a sufferer of this disease, and when pharmaceutical medicine cannot help, many seek alternative medication (or maybe just too paranoid to see a doc.).

When the substance is Alcohol, nobody minds too much because it's legal. When it's heroine / opium, nobody notices because this is an anti-psycotic. But when it's weed, everybody gets upset, because this is, although illegal in most countries, a popular recreational drug and (ignorant + bigoted) cops / teachers / parents tend to need as much ammunition as they can get in an anti-marijuana argument.

Unfortunatley, the link between mental illness and cannabis CANNOT be explored objectivley in any country where it is illegal / prohibited (even holland). This is a sad fact. Some doctors have tried, all have stumbled over the same hurdles.

Even if weed does make you psycho, Marijuana is in my opinion far less harmful than alcohol. I have seen many a drunk get violent or sleazy and generally do things which they would not do normally. I have never yet seen someone do crazy stuff because they are stoned (they can rant a bit though).

Oh, and everybody who said something like "I DON'T TAKE DRUGS" in this thread...

...Everything you put into your body affects your neural chemistry. Every time you eat food, your body makes endorphins (babies can be given a little sugar as a mild analgesic), this is especially true for some foods such as chocholate, cheese, red meat. Maltrexone (i think it's called) the drug which blocks the endorphine receptors can cure a chocholate addict as much as it can cure a "smack-head". Processed sugar is a stimulant more powerful than amphetamine, but most of us are addicted to this at an early age, so we don't notice. So therefore. YOU DO TAKE MIND ALTERING DRUGS EVERY DAY! Just not the illegal ones.

[cecilia]

Oh, and everybody who said something like "I DON'T TAKE DRUGS" in this thread...

don't play the semantic game with me, my dear! I know exactly what I said and exactly what I mean.

I don't take drugs that will be harmful to my body. period. I take antioxydants Because they help repair my body. exercise creates important changes in the body and that's why I do it. and so on.....

every freaking drug could be made legal and i still wouldn't take that c.r.a.p.
I don't overdo it with things like chocolate, etc.

as the Greeks used to say, everything in moderate, nothing in excess.

and, yes, i did read your original post.

[anakirob]

I'll be as semantic as I please. If you don't like it, don't take the bait.

Smoking causes lung cancer and heart disease!
Eating causes bowel cancer and heart disease! A low calorie diet has been found to increase an individuals life expectancy considerably.
(OK, so you don't get energy from tobacco smoke, but my point is still valid)
Exercise is addictive and can cause any number of injuries!

Everything you do to/with your body causes wear and tear. If you want do do something which is totally not bad for your body, you would go into cryosleep and never awaken.

I was just reading another thread on overpopulation, if everybody smoked, then this would not be such a problem as we would all die a little sooner :lol:. If I had to choose between happy and healthy (although these often go together anyway), I would choose happy, even if I do choke on my own lung tumor when I laugh with joy.

But of course I'm not advocating that you smoke anything.

P.S.
C.R.A.P. Trying to get around the amiga.org auto-censor are we? :lol:

[T_Bone]

anakirob wrote:
@cecilia: you are the only person posted to this thread who seems to get the point I was trying to make. (and you probably didn't even read the original post :lol: )

Shizophrenia, we all seem to agree, is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Who agrees with that? Actually the cause isn't that easy to pin down. As far as we know, a chemical imbalance is just a symptom of shizophrenia, the cause isn't really known.

When the substance is Alcohol, nobody minds too much because it's legal. When it's heroine / opium, nobody notices because this is an anti-psycotic. But when it's weed, everybody gets upset, because this is, although illegal in most countries, a popular recreational drug and (ignorant + bigoted) cops / teachers / parents tend to need as much ammunition as they can get in an anti-marijuana argument.

Nobody cares about alcohol or opiates? Opiates are antipsychotics? People get more upset about weed than heroin?? Where the heck do you live? :lol:

Unfortunatley, the link between mental illness and cannabis CANNOT be explored objectivley in any country where it is illegal / prohibited (even holland). This is a sad fact. Some doctors have tried, all have stumbled over the same hurdles.

What do you mean by "objectively?"

We know a few things about how the brain responds to schizophrenia. We also know that marijuana prevents the brain from responding to schizophrenia by flooding the anandamide receptors, lessening the brains ability to create anandamide, making it worse.

Just looking at the set of people who have schizophrenia, marijuana makes their condition worse. In the set of people who don't have schizophrenia, marijuana reduces the brains natural ability to produce and regulate antipsychotic chemicals. Objectively, whichever set you belong to, marijuana just isn't good for you, and has negative effects on your brain.

Even if weed does make you psycho, Marijuana is in my opinion far less harmful than alcohol. I have seen many a drunk get violent or sleazy and generally do things which they would not do normally. I have never yet seen someone do crazy stuff because they are stoned (they can rant a bit though).

I agree it's not as bad as alcohol, but alcohol is already a known evil. Marijuana is trying to be passed off as harmless and it's not. Neither is alcohol. The fact that marijuana doesn't make people violent isn't a good thing, it's just the absence of a bad thing. That's only a selling point if you're comparing it to something else. In that case, why alcohol and not opium?

Oh, and everybody who said something like "I DON'T TAKE DRUGS" in this thread...

...Everything you put into your body affects your neural chemistry. Every time you eat food, your body makes endorphins (babies can be given a little sugar as a mild analgesic), this is especially true for some foods such as chocholate, cheese, red meat. Maltrexone (i think it's called) the drug which blocks the endorphine receptors can cure a chocholate addict as much as it can cure a "smack-head". Processed sugar is a stimulant more powerful than amphetamine, but most of us are addicted to this at an early age, so we don't notice. So therefore. YOU DO TAKE MIND ALTERING DRUGS EVERY DAY! Just not the illegal ones.

Sure, everything effects you in some way, but don't we generally advocate damage controll over apathy, even for things that are legal?

I do believe it should be legal, not because I care, actually it's that I don't care :lol: I'm just tired of funding the "war on drugs."

As a devils advocate though, why should Marijuana be legal, when people like me, who have a legitamate need for certain drugs, have to go to a doctor to get them? Why should a stoner get to take a recreational drug he can buy off the street legally, when I have to get special permission (a prescription) for drugs I *have* to have? Why do medical marijuana advocates not care that I need a prescription for my drugs?

And why marijuana? Opium isn't destructive to any organs in the body, even if addicted to it for decades. Why shouldn't that be legal as well? It's better for you than marijuana.

[KennyR]

T_Bone wrote:
And why marijuana? Opium isn't destructive to any organs in the body, even if addicted to it for decades.

You forget the most major organ of all. Opium is inherently destructive to brain function. It has stunning psychological and physiological independence problems. And chronic use will eventually cause such large doses that they'll cause organ failure.

Why shouldn't that be legal as well? It's better for you than marijuana.

It's not. Once you're a marijuana addict (which IS possible, despite denials from pro-weed groups), you're a stoner. Once you're an opiate addict, your life is gone.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
And why marijuana? Opium isn't destructive to any organs in the body, even if addicted to it for decades.

You forget the most major organ of all. Opium is inherently destructive to brain function. It has stunning psychological and physiological independence problems. And chronic use will eventually cause such large doses that they'll cause organ failure.

Of course it's addictive, but it's not likely that you'd ever suffer from any problems other than the addiction. opium overdoses are rare, it wasn't untill the black market that people started using heroin and injecting it right into their veins, causing all kinds of problems with debris getting into the bloodstream and rampant infections. Opiate overdoses are easily halted with Narcan. Used medically though, you'd see no overdoses unless your doctor was an idiot.

Why shouldn't that be legal as well? It's better for you than marijuana.

It's not. Once you're a marijuana addict (which IS possible, despite denials from pro-weed groups), you're a stoner. Once you're an opiate addict, your life is gone.[/quote]

In the east, when the price of opium doubled, millions who had used it every day simply used half as much.

Addiction is something to deal with, to be sure, but it's not a ruined life, it's just an unpleasant expierence, one that can be treated medically.

All in all, opium is probably the safest drug that can be used medically. medical opium makes much more sense than medical marijuana, but I believe the real push behind the "medical marijuana" movement isn't "medical" at all, it's recreational. "recreational" use of anything will always be dangerous, because the people looking for the high usually could care less about proper use and will just do whatever it takes to feel good. (That includes breaking the law, so forget about the law as a solution)

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
Once you're a marijuana addict (which IS possible, despite denials from pro-weed groups)

I missed that part. Anandamide receptors don't seem to be bipolar, unlike the opiate receptors which have a baseline above "zero" and induced compensation when below baseline. Addiction seems to be possible only with drugs that cause a compensatory response from the brain to a swing acrossed baseline. The brain doesn't seem to respond to Anandamide deficits at all, but apparently only to unwanted surplus. This is probably due to the fact that Anandamide itself isn't normally "maintained" at any particular levels in the brain at all, but are only produced as a response to other triggers, unrelated to the anandomide levels themselves.

IOW's... Your brain doesn't really care if your Anandamide levels hit zero. Unless your brain specifically needs to maintain a higher level of anandamide, (like if said person has schizophrenia), it isn't a problem. Anandamide levels at zero are normal anyway. (Maybe those WITH schizophrenia are able to become addicted, as schizophrenics DO maintain an anandomide baseline, but most of us don't)

Opiate receptors, on the other hand, expect to be maintained at baseline. Above this baseline, and your brain compensates one way, below this baseline, your brain compensates the other way.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

medical opium makes much more sense than medical marijuana, but I believe the real push behind the "medical marijuana" movement isn't "medical" at all, it's recreational.

Well, the Dutch government disagrees about what you believe considering this.
The Dutch government has legalized medical use of marihuana.
BUT...
The tillers who are approved to grow marihuana sell their stuff for way much more money than the next-door coffeeshop (wich sells it illegaly, in NL, officially marihuana isn't legalized)

Anyhoo, you babble quite funny and interestingly, T-Bone, but marihuana IS addictive, I got some friends who got addicted or was once addicted (and do not have the slightest tendency towards schizophrenia). And very maybe there's a link between marihuana and schizophrenia, but I never heard about a case of schizophrenia caused by marihuana. I'd be way much more worried about the amounts of tar being inhaled while smoking marihuana (but that's the same concern I have about living in the city with all those cars burning gasoline and so, you know, wich can cause smog and so)

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

I got some friends who got addicted or was once addicted (and do not have the slightest tendency towards schizophrenia).

What's a "tendancy towards schizophrenia" anyway? The brain has no anandomide baseline, and normally does not maintain levels of anandomide in the brain. If you crave marijuana, your brain is maintaining an anandomide baseline, in which case it could be said that schizophrenia and marijuana addiction are one in the same. Why else would the brain crave a maintenance of it's anandomide levels?

If marijuana is addictive, then it does cause schizophrenia. That's the only possible explanation I can think of for the brain deciding to maintain an anandomide baseline. Anandomide baselines have never been found to be maintained in those without schizophrenia.

And very maybe there's a link between marihuana and schizophrenia, but I never heard about a case of schizophrenia caused by marihuana.

Neither have I, but how do you prove what caused it? To definatively prove that it causes schizophrenia, we'd have to show that artificial anandomide maintenance leads to natural anandomide maintenance by the brain. Unfortunately, that would also suggest that marijuana is addictive.

[anakirob]

@T-BONE!

Nobody cares about alcohol or opiates? Opiates are antipsychotics? People get more upset about weed than heroin?? Where the heck do you live?

If you would take another look at my post I DID NOT SAY "Nobody cares about opiates." I said nobody notices [the link between the disease and the substance abuse] because it's anti-psychotic. And yes. Opium (morphine, heroine, etc.) ARE TOO anti-psych! Look it up if you do not believe me.
BTW...
I live in Australia (Tasmania), where most people speak english as their native language. If only you knew how to read it properly we would not have such poor communications :-P .
[Yankees don't speak proper English (but they like to believe they do), they speak American-English]