Discussing strategy of parties involved in the amiga-market (Hardware/OS)

[OlafS3]

To have a thread more related to general discussions (even if they not change anything and the companies/teams involved do not react on them) I create this thread.

[OlafS3]

I disagree with the strategy of a-eon at the moment. As I said I do not think that two high-prized and for most users unaffordable new computers are priority at the moment. When I understand Trevor correctly it would have been possible to produce something cheaper but that would have been competition to Acube (what he wants to avoid). Cooperation is ok but cooperation against the needs and wishes of the customers (and expecially potential customers)?. I hope that they rethink the plans and offer something more affordable.

[OlafS3]

But why would you want it? It only has a couple of expansion ports,. The CPU is 2Ghz dual core. That is almost the speed of a netbook.

ARM is becoming the No. 1 platform. They may decide to port to ARM which must be less difficult than x86/x64. It's still 32-bit too.

I also worry that by the time they do anything the boat will have already left and Amiga remain a declining hobby.

But a ARM or X86 port of AmigaOS is completely out of scope. They want to make money with it, porting would mean a huge investment (time) to do. Hyperion wants to get paid for it, who will do it? Even for Trevor it would propably be too much. Or Hyperion (Ben H.) changes his mind and pays for it. But I have never heared of that they even think about it. And that Trevor pays for new high-end and high-prized PPC hardware does not sound of a change too. So only chance if they would "upgrade" the lower to midrange systems (means better hardware for the money).

On MorphOS team it is different because they are somehow in the middle between AROS and AmigaOS, commercial/closed source but not as much as Hyperion. They will make the shift to ARM/X86/X64 somewhen.

[OlafS3]

You are ofcourse free to start a kickstarter to get AOS4.x ported to arm or what ever, but I don't think you will be able to raise the money though.

I think you are right there. So cheaper hardware would the only chance (if you want to use AmigaOS)

[OlafS3]

I ll welcome and buy x86 version of MorphOS. But that is kind of on longer stick then X1000 AMP/SMP etc.

Seems Hyperion will stick with PPC at least until OS grows mature. Which is not bad at all - its the PPC users that will make transition and growth possible, as it is with MorphOS.

People should take their own decisions, and we should welcome it. But this kind of bashing puts A.org to Moo level. :mickeymouse:

"Moo level"

still a long way to go

I disagree with you there. Not the "PPC User" make transition and growth possible but winning back people from outside for the community (ex-amigans, users and expecially developers)

[OlafS3]

Currently PPC users makes it possible until OSs (MorphOS/OS4) are mature enough to go ARM (I prefer it to x86 even there are few ARM desktops - but they could aim tablets and smartphones like Amiga Inc planned).

Best would be to have one such OS and teams united (and it called AmigaOS 5 and hardware AmigaOnes since C-USA killed any hope of any good Amiga computer) or they will compete again just on larger market.

Even some better cooperation in current PPC markets would win more hearts and efforts, but team seems to be just too proud and stabborn.

Overall, no one has a long long term strategy, but everyone does its best in current circumstances.

Wining hearts of all ex Amigans? Hardly ever. Most were gamers. But we actually need a competitive OS in world of just 3 OSs (Win - mac OS X - Linux).

All ex-Amigians? Certainly not but would be nice of course :laugh1:

It would be enough to have say 50.000 - 100.000 users again. It is only a fraction of the former community but would be enough for commercial development (to some degree). Even then we would not compete with Windows or Linux but at least the community would be visible again. Being happy to satisfy the interest of a couple of hundred wealthy users brings no future. To support used Macs is at least offering better chances but it will not win the future either. The future can only be supporting new modern standard mass-produced hardware. Custom boards (whatever parts are used) are always much more expensive and only justifyable if they offer a real benefit. Custom for custom sake makes no sense to me.

[OlafS3]

@thread

There is no sense is discussing all options concerning h/w or s/w strategy from the Hyperion/Amiga OS4 side.
Too many limitations exist in the stipulated judgment between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion CVBA.

(1)They have clearly stated that they do not want the advice of anyone except their own close circle. This is a fact. Part of the reason is that a firm understanding is needed as to what the lawyers will jump on and what they will not. Anyone outside that circle simply will not have that information at their disposal.

Source

(2)see (1)

#6

They should at least hear on their customers...

[OlafS3]

Holy crap olaf. You sound like a broken record. Grow up. and let those wanting to buy an x1000 buy one. And let them have fun with it.
Oh, and since all you talk about is price... why is there still life in aos4 and mos camps? Shouldn't all people have joined the superior aros, since its free?

I am not in the "about buying X1000" thread so I can disagree or not. Regarding price... I talked to a number of former known developers (mostly AmigaOS) who left because of price. And besides I do not believe that the existing users will change their minds (whatever one of the OS offers and how superior it might be). There was no mass movement after MorphOS 3.2, there will be no new users after the next big update of AmigaOS (whenever it will be). Noone outside cares for "Amiga" anymore (it is only about number of users that means potential buyers). I am grown up, thanx, how about you? How do you think people will look at you when you try to sell your "Super"-"AmigaOS", the "true Amiga-successor" how some call it and the "only Amiga"

[OlafS3]

You'd have a heck of a job getting an ARM as powerful an SOC as the ones on the PowerPC boards we have now. It's a fantastic embedded processor but it's not designed for the same systems as PowerPC.

Re the thread:
I think Olaf has every right to argue about the X1000 and OS4 in this thread. This is where it should be.
Contrary to popular belief, most OS4 users are willing to discuss OS4, their NG Amigas in a constructive way. We're not just sheep going for the brand name, we just happen to prefer OS 4 (and what's so wrong with that?). If Olaf thinks that AmigaOS is going the wrong way, then as this is a discussion forum about Amigas, what better place for it?

What OS4 users are sick of is incorrect information being thrown about the place (like incomplete drivers. For goodness' sake - so you have to use an ethernet card for now? So what? It's hardly a show-stopper! And as for the 3D graphics, you can happily use a non HD Radeon for now. It's really not an issue - ask anyone who actually owns one). We're also sick of being lumped into one group of people who apparently don't know what they're talking about, and who are obviously stupid because they didn't choose whatever flavour someone else did.

Maybe - just maybe - this can be a thread where things start to change for the better, where AmigaOS4 users can respect and be respected by the people who believe for whatever reason that AmigaOS 4 isn't for them.

Use this thread to discuss the pro's and con's of the NG Amigas, NOT threads announcing the arrival of more stock (which is emphatically not the place for such discussion).

If we can get people to respect each other's choices on this forum, more people will come back and maybe it'll stop being such a hostile place for people who happen to use AmigaOS 4.

End of preaching

(I count myself an AmigaOS 4 user for the purpose of simplifying this thread, though I use others too)

+1

it should be possible for "grown ups" to discuss (and even disagree) without all the time using "stereotypes" and start to bash each other when you talk about facts and not insult others and their choices.

@Mrs_Beanbag

I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).

@Boot_WB

"SMP" is a wide area with lots of definitions and concepts. I read a discussion on aros-exec on it (I think it was called AMP or ASMP I cannot remember) that could be used without breaking compatibility (I think it is similar to PowerUP). The disadvantage is that only special adapted software benefits from it. Other concepts would create lots of problems with existing software. So if Hyperion really implements "SMP" with a concept that every software benefits of (without adaption) then I will make a deep bow to them. But I do not believe that.

[OlafS3]

@Boot_WB

Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing we need. Healthy discussion - not bitter sniping and carping.

I completely understand what you mean about the price of the X1000, but I think you misunderstand the reason for its existence.

Yes, it exists to help AmigaOS develop by feeding it cash via sales, but that's not the real issue. The real issue is simply one of market forces.

There is a market for the X1000. This has been proven by its success, and the repeated production runs. That's what it's sold.
It also has the benefit that because it's a very powerful (for an Amiga) machine, productivity of users developing on it will go up slightly. Not a lot, but when you're recompiling MAME for the 10th time, believe me it helps!

It's unfortunate that there's not more money from sales of the X1000 going into the OS4 development, but that wasn't really the purpose.

As concerns multi-processing, there are the foundations of multi-processor code in 4.1.6, but no - not really multi-processing yet. I think there may be beta testing going on, but that's really a 4.2 thing I think.

If AmigaOS 4.2 does get released by the end of 2014, I'll quote you on this.

And again - thanks for the post.  It's good to have healthy discussions, and criticism.

I understood Trevor when he started the X1000 project (he wanted to create a super geek AmigaOS system for his personal pleasure). I still think that the time of "custom hardware" is long over but to a certain degree I understand his motivation. I do not understand his motivation for the two new systems he is now doing. One is replacing X1000 and (as I understand it) will be similar priced as the X1000. So all people who think X1000 is too expensive for them and the Acube hardware too weak will be very propably disappointed. New users from outside? No chance. All is left is the existing AmigaOS community but those who can afford (and were willing to) already own a X1000. Perhaps some will buy everything what is offered at any price but develop new hardware for such a small wealthy group? What sense make it? To offer new cheap options and a mobile solution might have made sense but this? I do not understand him... He will not stop it now because there is already money invested in the project but it is very strange to me.

[OlafS3]

Well I don't really understand any of Hyperion's business decisions but it seems like the perfect platform (and already existing).

Any reason not to port AROS to it?

You must ask Jason for it. He is maintaining the PPC branch. And of course you need the drivers for it (I have no clue how the hardware looks like, what graphic chip is used and so on). If drivers are available it might be possible.

At the moment most priority is on the ARM branch to get cheap devices.

[OlafS3]

Some people are claiming Hyperion should follow the same strategy as the MorphOS team and port OS4 to Macs. I feel it is just good that Hyperion and MorphOS team have different strategies so people who like new hardware can choose the OS4 route, the ones who don't mind running an Amiga OS on second hand and cheaper hardware can go the MOS route (or even AROS).
If both teams would follow the same strategy I think the direct competition would be more harmful than advantageous in such a small community.
Or is there something the Mac with MOS users are missing ?

i have sent the link to this thread to Trevor in the hope that he explains his ideas. Perhaps we (or at least I)  just do not understand the big picture or concept.

[OlafS3]

I'm sure Trevor would be more than happy for other players to enter this booming market with more enlightened business strategies for a product that 'aint got a speakable market.  "Bring on the competition" I'm sure he'd agree.

Let me know when you've got your business plan together Olaf.  Post it here, we'll all have a read of it, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to help sponsor your strategy.

Thank you. You will be the first I will inform :-)

[OlafS3]

I'm fairly certain they killed Moana because it would have destroyed the market for new hardware, and would have limited us to old PowerMacs.

It's as a result of their killing Moana that we have machines that support PCI-E, multi-core, USB 3 etc. (even if we can't use their potential fully yet, we have the hardware for it).
If Moana was still around, we'd all be strongly limited to small Macs instead of the good, expandable hardware we have now.

Supporting Moana would have been tying AmigaOS 4 down to the past, and that's what they're trying to get away from.

Someone said (when I remember right) connecting the OS to exotic hardware is a kind of natural copy-protection (in opposite to what could have happened with Moana). And I do not know how fast and compatible emulated environments are. On the other hand more user and sold licenses (even if some would be illegal copies)

[OlafS3]

Don`t forget Moana was a stop gap solution BEFORE SAM 440 arrived at times of OS 4.0 Classic, and that it would harm ACube too.

Once in wagon with hardware partners, no matter how

On natural protection of rare hardware, I see Apple still takes the same logic when limiting its MacOS X only to its hardware, even its x86.

While counting on wild numbers seems good, as well as cheap hardware, you must understand that interest in Amiga like OSs is also just on old warriors and holds no meaning to overall world. Also, MorphOS team has reverted to PPC Macs when left by Genesi as only route.

Preferably flourishing solution would be building a new Acube system as middle, while lowering price of SAM 460 Lite and having 3D drivers for RadeonHD. That would be quite reasonable, fast and a bit modern OS4 system.

Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.

And nothing brings developers per se, except bounties (money). I don`t see way much development on AROS file depots (not at least more then on Morph and OS4 and file depots) even its free and can be run on almost anything. So there is no easy way out.

Application development is a problem because you need much more users to justify commercial applications. There is only the chance to get some ports or have idealists doing it without too high expectations. For games there is a bigger chance if at least opensource 3D engines are ported because these are used nowadays for many indy games. I am also looking forward to see Antyriad Gx engine on AROS. Another idea is to get more tools support for Amiga game development (and thus making it more professional). The idea is to use professional tools from Windows/Linux to create level design, graphic, sound and so on and use it for Amiga game development. Example from someone is the developer who is creating a Hollywood plugin to use graphics from his tool. So a lot of things can be done.