Discussing strategy of parties involved in the amiga-market (Hardware/OS)

[spirantho]

@ElPolloDiablo

Not sure what you mean by "hoax system"...? Do you mean the netbook? That wasn't their fault, they were caught between a rock and a hard place there (the price went up massively so if they delivered, they got yelled at and nobody would buy it because of the price - if they didn't deliver, they got yelled at and nobody could buy it, but at least they wouldn't go bankrupt).

I know what you mean about due dates - they're never accurate. That's not a Hyperion thing, that's a general industry thing. That's why these days they just say "When it's done" (sensible).

[OlafS3]

@Boot_WB

Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing we need. Healthy discussion - not bitter sniping and carping.

I completely understand what you mean about the price of the X1000, but I think you misunderstand the reason for its existence.

Yes, it exists to help AmigaOS develop by feeding it cash via sales, but that's not the real issue. The real issue is simply one of market forces.

There is a market for the X1000. This has been proven by its success, and the repeated production runs. That's what it's sold.
It also has the benefit that because it's a very powerful (for an Amiga) machine, productivity of users developing on it will go up slightly. Not a lot, but when you're recompiling MAME for the 10th time, believe me it helps!

It's unfortunate that there's not more money from sales of the X1000 going into the OS4 development, but that wasn't really the purpose.

As concerns multi-processing, there are the foundations of multi-processor code in 4.1.6, but no - not really multi-processing yet. I think there may be beta testing going on, but that's really a 4.2 thing I think.

If AmigaOS 4.2 does get released by the end of 2014, I'll quote you on this.

And again - thanks for the post.  It's good to have healthy discussions, and criticism.

I understood Trevor when he started the X1000 project (he wanted to create a super geek AmigaOS system for his personal pleasure). I still think that the time of "custom hardware" is long over but to a certain degree I understand his motivation. I do not understand his motivation for the two new systems he is now doing. One is replacing X1000 and (as I understand it) will be similar priced as the X1000. So all people who think X1000 is too expensive for them and the Acube hardware too weak will be very propably disappointed. New users from outside? No chance. All is left is the existing AmigaOS community but those who can afford (and were willing to) already own a X1000. Perhaps some will buy everything what is offered at any price but develop new hardware for such a small wealthy group? What sense make it? To offer new cheap options and a mobile solution might have made sense but this? I do not understand him... He will not stop it now because there is already money invested in the project but it is very strange to me.

[spirantho]

I understood Trevor when he started the X1000 project (he wanted to create a super geek AmigaOS system for his personal pleasure). I still think that the time of "custom hardware" is long over but to a certain degree I understand his motivation. I do not understand his motivation for the two new systems he is now doing. One is replacing X1000 and (as I understand it) will be similar priced as the X1000. So all people who think X1000 is too expensive for them and the Acube hardware too weak will be very propably disappointed. New users from outside? No chance. All is left is the existing AmigaOS community but those who can afford (and were willing to) already own a X1000. Perhaps some will buy everything what is offered at any price but develop new hardware for such a small wealthy group? What sense make it? To offer new cheap options and a mobile solution might have made sense but this? I do not understand him... He will not stop it now because there is already money invested in the project but it is very strange to me.

My understanding is that he wants to concentrate on the higher end of the market, leaving Acube to do the lower end. I think that's a perfectly reasonable business plan.

The aim of the Cyrus is obvious - to replace the X1000. As the PA6T is so elusive and expensive, he needs a replacement - that's what the Cyrus is.

As for pricing, though - honestly nobody knows the pricing yet. We've heard vague suggestions and possibilities but when it comes down to it everybody here knows the same amount - i.e. nothing. A heck of a lot can change between now and when the Cyrus hits the market. I don't think it's fair to attack anyone on what the price might be.

[Mrs Beanbag]

@Mrs_Beanbag

I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).

Well I don't really understand any of Hyperion's business decisions but it seems like the perfect platform (and already existing).

Any reason not to port AROS to it?

[OlafS3]

Well I don't really understand any of Hyperion's business decisions but it seems like the perfect platform (and already existing).

Any reason not to port AROS to it?

You must ask Jason for it. He is maintaining the PPC branch. And of course you need the drivers for it (I have no clue how the hardware looks like, what graphic chip is used and so on). If drivers are available it might be possible.

At the moment most priority is on the ARM branch to get cheap devices.

[Fats]

If you feel this latest thread is yet another in a long line of "waste of time" discussions about something that cannot be changed; it is your prerogative to think that way but you should not really be upset because no one is forcing you to read them.

I could agree if the thread was properly named as "Another OS4 bashing attempt" or "For those who have been living under a rock: I don't like AEon's strategy".

I think Olaf has every right to argue about the X1000 and OS4 in this thread. This is where it should be.
Contrary to popular belief, most OS4 users are willing to discuss OS4, their NG Amigas in a constructive way.

Problem is that currently any constructive OS4 discussion is almost impossible on aorg as a handful of posters fill all these threads with how wrong the OS4 strategy is. I would be very happy if this thread could in the end change that situation. Reason I still read OS4 threads is just in the hope for once an actual discussion could take place and not a repetition of the theme of the cost of OS4 hardware; or how evil Ben Hermans is; or how much better MOS is; ...

[Fats]

Some people are claiming Hyperion should follow the same strategy as the MorphOS team and port OS4 to Macs. I feel it is just good that Hyperion and MorphOS team have different strategies so people who like new hardware can choose the OS4 route, the ones who don't mind running an Amiga OS on second hand and cheaper hardware can go the MOS route (or even AROS).
If both teams would follow the same strategy I think the direct competition would be more harmful than advantageous in such a small community.
Or is there something the Mac with MOS users are missing ?

[OlafS3]

Some people are claiming Hyperion should follow the same strategy as the MorphOS team and port OS4 to Macs. I feel it is just good that Hyperion and MorphOS team have different strategies so people who like new hardware can choose the OS4 route, the ones who don't mind running an Amiga OS on second hand and cheaper hardware can go the MOS route (or even AROS).
If both teams would follow the same strategy I think the direct competition would be more harmful than advantageous in such a small community.
Or is there something the Mac with MOS users are missing ?

i have sent the link to this thread to Trevor in the hope that he explains his ideas. Perhaps we (or at least I)  just do not understand the big picture or concept.

[gertsy]

i have sent the link to this thread to Trevor in the hope that he explains his ideas. Perhaps we (or at least I)  just do not understand the big picture or concept.

I'm sure Trevor would be more than happy for other players to enter this booming market with more enlightened business strategies for a product that 'aint got a speakable market.  "Bring on the competition" I'm sure he'd agree.

Let me know when you've got your business plan together Olaf.  Post it here, we'll all have a read of it, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to help sponsor your strategy.

[Crumb]

I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).

Hyperion can release AmigaOS4 for whatever platform they want after winning the trial. E.g.: nobody paid for the Pegasos2 and Classic ports.

They probably killed Moana because they couldn't have huge profits on each unit like they do selling boards with embedded cpus (slower than the ones used 10 years ago) for premium prices. They didn't note that selling 3000 units for 100€ produces both more users and profits than selling 100 units for 3000€ (specially if you discount the real costs of producing the hardware). The difference is that if 1% of that buyers are developers you end up with 30 developers instead of only one, thus increasing the software base and the value of the platform.

[OlafS3]

I'm sure Trevor would be more than happy for other players to enter this booming market with more enlightened business strategies for a product that 'aint got a speakable market.  "Bring on the competition" I'm sure he'd agree.

Let me know when you've got your business plan together Olaf.  Post it here, we'll all have a read of it, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to help sponsor your strategy.

Thank you. You will be the first I will inform :-)

[spirantho]

They probably killed Moana because they couldn't have huge profits on each unit like they do selling boards with embedded cpus (slower than the ones used 10 years ago) for premium prices. They didn't note that selling 3000 units for 100€ produces both more users and profits than selling 100 units for 3000€ (specially if you discount the real costs of producing the hardware). The difference is that if 1% of that buyers are developers you end up with 30 developers instead of only one, thus increasing the software base and the value of the platform.

I'm fairly certain they killed Moana because it would have destroyed the market for new hardware, and would have limited us to old PowerMacs.

It's as a result of their killing Moana that we have machines that support PCI-E, multi-core, USB 3 etc. (even if we can't use their potential fully yet, we have the hardware for it).
If Moana was still around, we'd all be strongly limited to small Macs instead of the good, expandable hardware we have now.

Supporting Moana would have been tying AmigaOS 4 down to the past, and that's what they're trying to get away from.

[OlafS3]

I'm fairly certain they killed Moana because it would have destroyed the market for new hardware, and would have limited us to old PowerMacs.

It's as a result of their killing Moana that we have machines that support PCI-E, multi-core, USB 3 etc. (even if we can't use their potential fully yet, we have the hardware for it).
If Moana was still around, we'd all be strongly limited to small Macs instead of the good, expandable hardware we have now.

Supporting Moana would have been tying AmigaOS 4 down to the past, and that's what they're trying to get away from.

Someone said (when I remember right) connecting the OS to exotic hardware is a kind of natural copy-protection (in opposite to what could have happened with Moana). And I do not know how fast and compatible emulated environments are. On the other hand more user and sold licenses (even if some would be illegal copies)

[vox]

Someone said (when I remember right) connecting the OS to exotic hardware is a kind of natural copy-protection (in opposite to what could have happened with Moana). And I do not know how fast and compatible emulated environments are. On the other hand more user and sold licenses (even if some would be illegal copies)

Don`t forget Moana was a stop gap solution BEFORE SAM 440 arrived at times of OS 4.0 Classic, and that it would harm ACube too.

Once in wagon with hardware partners, no matter how

On natural protection of rare hardware, I see Apple still takes the same logic when limiting its MacOS X only to its hardware, even its x86.

While counting on wild numbers seems good, as well as cheap hardware, you must understand that interest in Amiga like OSs is also just on old warriors and holds no meaning to overall world. Also, MorphOS team has reverted to PPC Macs when left by Genesi as only route.

Preferably flourishing solution would be building a new Acube system as middle, while lowering price of SAM 460 Lite and having 3D drivers for RadeonHD. That would be quite reasonable, fast and a bit modern OS4 system.

Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.

And nothing brings developers per se, except bounties (money). I don`t see way much development on AROS file depots (not at least more then on Morph and OS4 and file depots) even its free and can be run on almost anything. So there is no easy way out.

[OlafS3]

Don`t forget Moana was a stop gap solution BEFORE SAM 440 arrived at times of OS 4.0 Classic, and that it would harm ACube too.

Once in wagon with hardware partners, no matter how

On natural protection of rare hardware, I see Apple still takes the same logic when limiting its MacOS X only to its hardware, even its x86.

While counting on wild numbers seems good, as well as cheap hardware, you must understand that interest in Amiga like OSs is also just on old warriors and holds no meaning to overall world. Also, MorphOS team has reverted to PPC Macs when left by Genesi as only route.

Preferably flourishing solution would be building a new Acube system as middle, while lowering price of SAM 460 Lite and having 3D drivers for RadeonHD. That would be quite reasonable, fast and a bit modern OS4 system.

Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.

And nothing brings developers per se, except bounties (money). I don`t see way much development on AROS file depots (not at least more then on Morph and OS4 and file depots) even its free and can be run on almost anything. So there is no easy way out.

Application development is a problem because you need much more users to justify commercial applications. There is only the chance to get some ports or have idealists doing it without too high expectations. For games there is a bigger chance if at least opensource 3D engines are ported because these are used nowadays for many indy games. I am also looking forward to see Antyriad Gx engine on AROS. Another idea is to get more tools support for Amiga game development (and thus making it more professional). The idea is to use professional tools from Windows/Linux to create level design, graphic, sound and so on and use it for Amiga game development. Example from someone is the developer who is creating a Hollywood plugin to use graphics from his tool. So a lot of things can be done.

[Crumb]

Last generation of G5 include PCIe (not that it matters much) and some models 4 cpu cores.

As long as "new hardware" doesn't provide the same performance as nearly 10 year old hardware I don't see the point in "new hardware". If I was concerned about that I would buy a brand new Efika fron Directron but I prefer more performance.

Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.

That would still be 10 times more than the number of x1000 sold and zero investment in hardware development costs. In case you haven't noticed yet "Amiga" word could increase the interest so you could expect more sales.