Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4

[kolla]

@QuikSanz -

The Apollo core does have an MMU implementation. However it is not backwards-compatible with previous Motorola designs.

It supports new features such as non-executable memory. This is pretty much an expectation of any modern MMU. The MMU has a "modern, forward-looking" design instead of being compatible with 20+ year old designs in the 68060 and earlier generations.

I am speculating that the MMU in Apollo Core is mostly used to move memory addresses around so that AmigaOS and its apps find what they expects at the addresses they expects. With multithreaded I/O-operatings, legacy I/O, DMA, SAGA and kickstart protection, it should be quite busy already.

[gregthecanuck]

I believe it is also a dual-ported design. It also solves cache coherency issues present in older 68K generations... but don't quote me on that...  going by my conveyor-belt memory.

[QuikSanz]

But my question is: can some missing stuff be dealt with by some programming (software).

[gregthecanuck]

But my question is: can some missing stuff be dealt with by some programming (software).

Sure.

On the FPU - there is the 'femu' emulation software.

On the MMU - any tools or utilities that use MMU functionality would need an update to detect the 68080 MMU and call it correctly. However, as far as I know, the MMU has not been exposed to programmers at the point. The design may still be in flux...

[QuikSanz]

Sure.

On the FPU - there is the 'femu' emulation software.

On the MMU - any tools or utilities that use MMU functionality would need an update to detect the 68080 MMU and call it correctly. However, as far as I know, the MMU has not been exposed to programmers at the point. The design may still be in flux...

One more time. There is FEMU emulation software and ZERO FPU on board.

There is MMU unknown software onboard. So MEMU? emulation possible?

[BSzili]

So what are the existing features?

It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this

[gregthecanuck]

One more time. There is FEMU emulation software and ZERO FPU on board.

There is MMU unknown software onboard. So MEMU? emulation possible?

I see where this is going. I am trying to give you what I understand to be the most up to date information. If this product isn't for you then there are other great accelerator products out there.

[Niding]

It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this

Thats because you seemingly dont want to read what many has been saying;

-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.
-I enjoy the responsive Workbench.
-I enjoy the productivity + music in the background without the system grinding to a halt.

Im not a developer or a poweruser, so my list probably seems like "lol", but Im pretty sure userfriendliness and responsiveness of the system is a BIG positive for most people.

Ofcourse its a mixed bag for developers based on what Ive read. More powerful design, but lackluster in development tools for the Vampire spesific core features. I get that.

I guess you could respond with "The points you listed you could get from WinUAE and Amikit!" or "a beefed up A4000 with xyz cards would be able to deliver the same".
Yes, but at what pricetag?
Emulation is free ofcourse, but A4000 and legacy hardware, nope.

[psxphill]

-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.

Why do you hate Indivision?

[Niding]

Why do you hate Indivision?

Who says I hate Indivision? I got a Mk 2 in my A1200, but compared to the overall exprience I have with my V600, I dont miss using it.
It defintly served its purpose (and still does, the few times I boot up my A1200).

[psxphill]

Who says I hate Indivision?

You said that you enjoyed using HDMI without Indivision, which implies that using HDMI with Indivision wasn't enjoyable.

If you were neutral about Indivision then you wouldn't have mentioned it.

How do you think your girlfriend would feel if you said "I enjoy going to the cinema without my girlfriend".

That has been kind of the point we've been making, and I don't know about you, but I feel like I've been butting my head against a wall.
'Sounds like a good idea, if compatibility with standard fpu and mmu operations is incorporated into the design'.

I still don't see why that is an unreasonable request.

It appears to me that all requests are considered unreasonable, because if it was reasonable then Gunnar would have implemented it already.

He has previously said that he wants to sell apollo as an embedded softcore, similar to arm, where most people don't need 680x0 fpu and mmu compatibility. Even if he targeted people looking for a coldfire or cpu32 replacement, most of them didn't have an fpu or mmu and those that did weren't 680x0 compatible either. This is his justification, you would need to show that there is money to be made by supporting them. He only needs enough people in the Amiga market to prove that his design works & there are enough people that overlook the lack of fpu & mmu to achieve that.

If apollo does take off like arm has, then I think it's incredibly likely that he'll walk away from the ungrateful Amiga market and take his closed source code with him.

[Niding]

@psxphill

You are just fishing for conflicts.

Indivision is something many of us can compare and relate to. I enjoy Jens's hardware, and as I said, it has served its purpose. But compared to the userfriendliness of Vampire it has its shortcomings. That is obviously not only down to the Indivision, but the fact that my Blizzard 030 lacks the power to run Workbench well enough when you increase the resolution and colors+music in the background.

Making the girlfriend argument is pure bullcrap. Shes not a tool to be used for a certain pupose. Computers are, and they dont have feelings. Im sure Jens dont mind and understand the difference in hardware, plus he has gotten money from me several times.

[Linde]

Why do you hate Indivision?

The logical leap from "I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision" to this is almost impressive.

[psxphill]

The logical leap from "I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision" to this is almost impressive.

No, it's exactly what was written. I cannot be held responsible if english is not your first language.

It's a much bigger leap from:

"I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision"

to:

"I enjoy Jens's hardware, and as I said, it has served its purpose. But compared to the userfriendliness of Vampire it has its shortcomings. That is obviously not only down to the Indivision, but the fact that my Blizzard 030 lacks the power to run Workbench well enough when you increase the resolution and colors+music in the background."

Which is still not clear why vampire hdmi output is more enjoyable than Indivision. If it's only the CPU the affects it then it nullifies the point entirely.

Making the girlfriend argument is pure bullcrap.

My interpretation is the correct english interpretation, there are no magic get out clauses because one is a person.

Here is another analogy: "I enjoy going out without my phone". It's safe to infer that you don't enjoy going out WITH your phone, or you'd write the sentence differently.

You either meant what you wrote or you didn't. Being so defensive about it makes it look like I was right, I'm prepared to accept that you didn't really think about what you wrote and you like being abusive when questioned.

[Niding]

"there are no magic get out clauses because one is a person."

Wow.

[mongo]

No, it's exactly what was written. I cannot be held responsible if english is not your first language.

English is my first language. You're wrong.

Here is another analogy: "I enjoy going out without my phone". It's safe to infer that you don't enjoy going out WITH your phone, or you'd write the sentence differently.

No. It's not safe to infer that at all. It is totally possible to enjoy going out without your phone and enjoy going out with your phone. Also, that statement in no way implies that you hate your phone, as you seem to think.