Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4

[kolla]

I don't, for one. I have an A2000 because it is basically bullet proof. I upgraded it to ECS, and will upgrade it further with a Vampire.

Just plain A2000 just chipram and 68000, no A2620 or A2630?

I can't afford a decked out A4000, but I DO wish I'd bought an A1200 a few years ago since that strikes me as soon as a really nice, compact system.
And if you want to get weird, you can expand an A1200 pretty far.

Yeah, been there, won't bother again.

Look, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with '040 and '060 CPUs in mind.

I don't really see what the chipset has to do with anything here, but the chipset is much more tolerable with 040 and upwards.

By the time we got there, we were in sore need of a replacement system, which we never got.

Some would argue that we did get a replacement system in retargetable graphics and audio, and the result of this which today is MorphOS.

High end Amiga are a kludged nightmare. Vampire helps simplify this situation by rendering the average Amiga a powerhouse.

Vampirised Amiga is not less kludgy, in terms of software it is very often a lot more kludgy.

Amiga snobs don't like it? Tough, because personally I think your investment in that maxed out A4000 makes you look like a fool.

Ah yes, I must be a snob. Of course, that's it. After all, I make more than twice as much per month now than what I paid to "max out" my A3000 back in 1997 with CSPPC/CVPPC. What a foolish investment that was. Never mind that the snobbish Amiga hardware I have owned also was the learning platform for at least 10-15 years, thanks to the ability to not just run AmigaOS, but also capable and modern operating systems, Linux and NetBSD. One day I should sit down and write down all the stuff I have done with and on Amiga over the years. :laughing:

[Iggy]

Just plain A2000 just chipram and 68000, no A2620 or A2630?

It used to have an A2620 (so it had a math co-processor).

I don't really see what the chipset has to do with anything here, but the chipset is much more tolerable with 040 and upwards.

The chipset didn't evolve nearly as much as the processors (Paula didn't change at all). And the design didn't really work as well as it could have with processors after the '030 because of that.

Some would argue that we did get a replacement system in retargetable graphics and audio, and the result of this which today is MorphOS.

Yes, but the developers have focused on Abox and Amiga compatibility and haven't really added any new features since 2.0 was introduced.

Vampirised Amiga is not less kludgy, in terms of software it is very often a lot more kludgy.

Valid argument.

Ah yes, I must be a snob. Of course, that's it. After all, I make more than twice as much per month now than what I paid to "max out" my A3000 back in 1997 with CSPPC/CVPPC. What a foolish investment that was. Never mind that the snobbish Amiga hardware I have owned also was the learning platform for at least 10-15 years, thanks to the ability to not just run AmigaOS, but also capable and modern operating systems, Linux and NetBSD. One day I should sit down and write down all the stuff I have done with and on Amiga over the years. :laughing:

The couldn't get past the price of entry when the Amiga was current (I make more now too).
I was selling 68K based systems that started at $1000 back then.
So Amiga hardware seemed pretty overpriced.

And its current resale value is ridiculous.

[Gulliver]

If you feel emotionally attached to Amiga hardware, the Apollo core on a Vampire V2 is a good choice.
If you are looking for speed then Amithlon or Aros are better options. A PC with UAE is not only much faster, but more compatible than anything else.
MorphOS on a Mac is also a pretty decent choice in this regard.
If you are looking for cost efficient standalone hardware, you have the FPGA Arcade and the Mist. And even a Raperri Pi might do the trick.

So the good thing is that there are choices for everyone.
The Apollo-Core sure has its place and merits, the most important being a fast hack on Amiga hardware in a time where new 68060 accelerators are non existant.
The bad thing about it, as kolla has been mentioning, is the exagerated claims on what it can actually deliver.

And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.

[LoadWB]

And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.

A lot of really good engineers suffer this, and this community lacks the luxury of a go-between for the community and the engineers.

[BSzili]

You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not even one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU, for a bigger FPGA!".

But most of all, I was "frustrated" with being told that what I use my Amiga systems for, is pointless - that the software I use, has no use, that I am idiot for using my Amiga systems for other things than "entertainment". And then an idiot for not being impressed by MPEG1 on classic systems (I mean, come on!)?

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.

I think there are many people who agree with this, but don't really bother posting about it, because it will get drowned out by all the hype.
When it comes to the Vampire you are only allowed to praise it, even if you don't own it, or what you say is "inaccurate to say the least". On the other hand if you have any criticism, you better keep it to yourself even if you own multiple cards :roflmao:

[psxphill]

And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.

He is communicating perfectly well, it's what he is communicating that is the issue.

He is a big fish in a small pond. There are loads of people in the world that could do what he is doing or are even better than him. But they are too busy earning money.

Normally it would then come down to it being a hobby where you appeal to the greatest audience, but he's not interested in that either.

It's a bit like how Trumps supporters in the US have enabled him to be in a position that he is not capable of dealing with. Sure the US is likely to survive Trump, and the apollo products are being released. It will just be less good than it could have been. Trump may have actually been a decent president if his supporters weren't alt right, sexist, racist, biggots etc as he would have more reason to appeal to decent people.

[Niding]

I think there are many people who agree with this, but don't really bother posting about it, because it will get drowned out by all the hype.
When it comes to the Vampire you are only allowed to praise it, even if you don't own it, or what you say is "inaccurate to say the least". On the other hand if you have any criticism, you better keep it to yourself even if you own multiple cards :roflmao:

Maybe a few think that way, but I dont have a problem with people critizising Vampire.

Just like when people have comments about AOS4 and PPC, they say what doesnt work, which is fine, but they quite often include to the effect "its %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ing useless, omg, and anyone using it is deluded fanbois!".
I might agree with the issues they list, but why on earth they need to add less than helpful descriptions of the users and hardware/software that will only make the reciver hostile?
And then you have the predictable exchange that just makes the fronts agressive.

Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc. You get my drift.
It kinda suprises me considering we are supposed to be adults, but just cant help outselves. If we had written at work a critique like we do on these forums, I think we would find ourselves in a human resource meeting pretty quickly. I realise this is a hobby forum, so drawing that paralell is a bit off, but Im sure you are catching my drift.

For some reason whoever prefer AOS3 enjoys bashing AOS4, and vice versa. Those that enjoy AOS4, bashes MorphOS or AROS, and vice versa.

Ive found the lack of communication from hardware/software developers somewhat annoying in the past, but Ive grown to understand it seeing it basically amounts to pissing into the wind for the most part.

[psxphill]

Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.

I understand it's work in progress, but it's not progressing towards a product that would be good for the amiga community as a whole. We could go round and round in circles with me trying to explain why it's not good, but it would be like trying to explain to a pro trump supporter why upsetting mexico is a bad idea. People who don't understand it, don't want to understand it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201007/why-changing-somebody-s-mind-or-yours-is-hard-do

But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc.

I only started calling them fan boys after years of dreadful behaviour by the pro apollo supporters acting childishly towards any suggestion that gunnar disagreed with. The behaviour comes from the top down, so get gunnar to fix his attitude and the problems will all disappear. Good luck with that.

[Niding]

I understand it's work in progress, but it's not progressing towards a product that would be good for the amiga community as a whole.



I only started calling them fan boys after years of dreadful behaviour by the pro apollo supporters acting childishly towards any suggestion that gunnar disagreed with. The behaviour comes from the top down, so get gunnar to fix his attitude and the problems will all disappear. Good luck with that.

Maybe we should raise above the kid like behaviour instead of reeinforcing it? Just a thought

[psxphill]

Maybe we should raise above the kid like behaviour instead of reeinforcing it? Just a thought

There is no point in unilaterally doing it, because then it's seen as a sign of a weakness in the argument. Like taking a knife to a gun fight, "you're so stupid you think you can have a reasonable discussion with me, therefore your argument must be false".

It has to be all parties on both sides, you'll find the people who want Apollo to be the best it can be will fall in when gunnar and his supporters act reasonably.

In any event. Calling someone, who is exhibiting fan boi tendancies, a fan boi is on the tame side compared to what comes back if you give a reasoned argument for why a compatible fpu and mmu would be a good idea.

And yeah it does suck, because I want something good to buy.

[BSzili]

Maybe a few think that way, but I dont have a problem with people critizising Vampire.

Just like when people have comments about AOS4 and PPC, they say what doesnt work, which is fine, but they quite often include to the effect "its %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ing useless, omg, and anyone using it is deluded fanbois!".
I might agree with the issues they list, but why on earth they need to add less than helpful descriptions of the users and hardware/software that will only make the reciver hostile?
And then you have the predictable exchange that just makes the fronts agressive.

Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc. You get my drift.
It kinda suprises me considering we are supposed to be adults, but just cant help outselves. If we had written at work a critique like we do on these forums, I think we would find ourselves in a human resource meeting pretty quickly. I realise this is a hobby forum, so drawing that paralell is a bit off, but Im sure you are catching my drift.

For some reason whoever prefer AOS3 enjoys bashing AOS4, and vice versa. Those that enjoy AOS4, bashes MorphOS or AROS, and vice versa.

Ive found the lack of communication from hardware/software developers somewhat annoying in the past, but Ive grown to understand it seeing it basically amounts to pissing into the wind for the most part.

Basically NAxALT.

[amyren]

I was looking forward to following this thread, hoping that it could be a refreshing discussion about this new hardware and its current and possible features.
Instead it turned into what seems like an endless rant about its shortcomings and what it probably can't do at the moment (missing FPU etc), and even personal critisism of development team members.

Considering the years of non existent or very expensive hardware for the classic amiga, I can so far only manage to see the positive sides of the vampire series.

[kolla]

I can so far only manage to see the positive sides of the vampire series.

Do you want to be bombed with this kind of stuff?

Without and with FEMU.

[PPC]

Kolla only the negative side i guess, so that should cancel each other out lol

[guest11527]

Do you want to be bombed with this kind of stuff?

An incomplete FPU emulation and a bad JPEG implementation working hand in hand. You don't need an FPU for JPEG.

[Iggy]

You don't need to make this excuse everytime Vampire fails.
Floating point routines have been a part of our software base for decades.