Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => MorphOS => MorphOS -- Application questions and support => Topic started by: aracnet on June 27, 2010, 07:33:06 AM
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I really want to understand how legal is morhos? I mean as i know they do not have any licence from Amiga Inc. but their software is said that completable with Amiga OS 3.x series without any kickrom. How it is possible?
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I really want to understand how legal is morhos? I mean as i know they do not have any licence from Amiga Inc. but their software is said that completable with Amiga OS 3.x series without any kickrom. How it is possible?
Abox has a compatible API.
But seriously, at this point, how can it be any less "legal" than AmigaOS?
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Abox has a compatible API.
Exactly. And Ben Hermans has a hell of a lot to answer for regarding the instigating of this particular rumour.
But seriously, at this point, how can it be any less "legal" than AmigaOS?
It's legality was never in question, any more than AROS's was. Unless you were the above mentioned lawyer or an OS4 fanatic.
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How it is possible?
It is possible, because cloning API of an operating system, based on publicly available documentation, is perfectly legal.
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Really, now that I think if it.
MorphOS is to AmigaOS as WINE is to Windows (and kickstart would be BIOS)
Obviously if anyone could sue something out of existence, it would be Micro$oft.
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Even *if* there *might* have been some code snippets in the first releases of MorphOS that *might* have been *lent* from OS3.x (which i personally don't believe!) - we are at MorphOS version 2.5 now! So AFAIK there's nothing illegal about it - it is it's own operating system, API compatible to AmigaOS 3.x. I would compare it to UNIX/LINUX - both show similar or identical APIs (POSIX) - even if SCO tried to sue LINUX supporting companies for years without success...
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I really want to understand how legal is morhos?
Fully legal.
I mean as i know they do not have any licence from Amiga Inc. but their software is said that completable with Amiga OS 3.x series without any kickrom. How it is possible?
It is possible because copyrights apply to implementations not ideas. It's perfectly legal to replicate functionality as long as you don't do it by copying the source code. Also, when creating MorphOS we were careful to avoid any Commodore patents (for instance menu multiselect).
Over the years many individuals have claimed that MorphOS would somehow be illegal. Ben Hermans (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/) has been one of them. Considering he has some legal training he should know better than present such obviously frivolous and unsubstantial claims (see Fear, uncertainty and doubt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt))
The most ridiculous claim (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1028650138&category=forum) was that someone would have found AmigaOS 3.1 code from MorphOS by disassembling MorphOS binaries. When asked to produce the evidence, nothing was presented. Considering that the AmigaOS is 68000 code and MorphOS is fully PowerPC native you can pretty easily call this bull manure.
MorphOS does not contain any AmigaOS source code and never has. MorphOS is fully legal.
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MorphOS should get their own forum or if they have one.. use it. MorphOS isn't Amiga and Amiga isn't MorphOS.
They just come here to market their software that is all, but I guess there is nothing wholly wrong in doing that.
But at the end of the day MorphOS will take it's own route and go where it wants (and die eventually) where as Amiga OS still has the brand name in a positive light and will live a good while yet. I have loads of mates in the 30+ age range who still fondly remember the Amiga for what it represented even if they didn't own one themselves.
Brand name means alot to alot of people and Amiga was the one brand that at that time in history had the technological edge over all its competitors - of course Commodore was badly managed and marketed and thus they killed the Amiga we knew back then. I firmly believe that if Commodore had the brains, the direction and the commitment and proper marketing in place there would be no Apple today and Microsoft would have been relegated to developing their productivity software only such was the technological advantage the Amiga had at that time.
Back to 2010. Retro-gaming is big once again as a new generation discovers the 'golden years in computing' - Hyperion/A-Eon needs to capitalise on this fast and progressively market this thing in the summer across the four corners of the internet. Don't spend too much time on it, but make sure that the X1000 can easily load .ADF files more seamlessly. For offline marketing they should focus on what has for a long time been the spiritual home of the Amiga - Europe.
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Brand name means alot to alot of people and Amiga was the one brand that at that time in history had the technological edge over all its competitors
This is not the case anymore. While MorphOS continues developments based on frameworks founded by AmigaOS 3, AmigaOS 4 programmers are determined to add random elements of other operating systems (Linux mainly). It is done to make ports of Linux programs easier. There is no innovation in OS4 and it slowly becomes a (poor) Linux emulator.
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It is possible, because cloning API of an operating system, based on publicly available documentation, is perfectly legal.
So they are some documentations which says how AmigaOS 3.x behave in which situations? Do we have chance to find them are there opensource?
Or Morphos team make reverse-engineering to get behaviors of AmigaOS 3.x?
Also if it is in API level completable why AROS can not do same as morphos even it needs UAE in some how?
But seriously, at this point, how can it be any less "legal" than AmigaOS?
After agreement wit Amiga Inc. and Hyperion I think there is no problem for now for AmigaOS 4.x serries.
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MorphOS should get their own forum or if they have one.. use it. MorphOS isn't Amiga and Amiga isn't MorphOS.
For many people, neither is any of the AmigaNG stuff, including but not limited to OS4.
They just come here to market their software that is all, but I guess there is nothing wholly wrong in doing that.
Because the OS4 crowd totally don't use this place for the same. Your post being a wonderful example of this btw.
You'll note that the vast majority of traffic for this site deals with issues concerning the classic Amiga.
But at the end of the day MorphOS will take it's own route and go where it wants (and die eventually) where as Amiga OS still has the brand name in a positive light and will live a good while yet.
You are kidding right? Whilst either OS is tied to PPC, they are dead ends. Further the Amiga brand name has earned itself a position not unlike that of Scientology within the IT world.
It is remembered outside of the community by two groups primarily: Those who used them during the C= days, and those who got screwed over the various scams committed during the early part of this decade by the current lot.
Back to 2010. Retro-gaming is big once again as a new generation discovers the 'golden years in computing' - Hyperion/A-Eon needs to capitalise on this fast and progressively market this thing in the summer across the four corners of the internet.
Except that their offerings don't yet support the retro crowd anywhere near as well as UAE on affordable hardware. And then you have Minimig, which for the same retro crowd is going to be able to offer a much more authentic feel than UAE on any platform.
but make sure that the X1000 can easily load .ADF files more seamlessly.
So what you want is for the X1000, which will cost "north of £1500" to be marketed as a UAE box? Even when the OS4 version of UAE is markedly less advanced than the windows version, and when fpga based solutions costing a fraction are available now?
I swear every time I read this sort of tripe, the reasons for my misgivings over AmigaNG are made all the more clear.
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So they are some documentations which says how AmigaOS 3.x behave in which situations? Do we have chance to find them are there opensource?
The APIs are public, see programming manuals written for the Amiga. The reason they're public is to allow developers to come to the platform and make software for it.
Haiku uses the same technique of reverse engineering based on the available APIs for BeOS. It too is completely Legal.
Also if it is in API level completable why AROS can not do same as morphos even it needs UAE in some how?
*Sigh* API compatible, not binary. What this means is if you have the source code for an amiga program, you can compile it for both AOS and AROS and it'll work on both with little or no modification.
An emulation layer is present on MorphOS, OS4 and being developed for AROS currently so as to allow programs compiled to run on original hardware to run on the newer stuff.
After agreement wit Amiga Inc. and Hyperion I think there is no problem for now for AmigaOS 4.x serries.
There is no problem for AROS or MorphOS either.
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So they are some documentations which says how AmigaOS 3.x behave in which situations? Do we have chance to find them are there opensource?
It is nicely documented how the API has to behave in the developer documentation from C=.
Also if it is in API level completable why AROS can not do same as morphos even it needs UAE in some how?
AROS 68k is pretty compatibe. AROSx86 has the problem of the inverse endianness with the processer which makes sharing stucturres between a 68k app and a x86 OS pretty complicated, It is easier in that case to just use UAE. Note that recently there are improved approaces for AROS to get better 68k comapbility/usability.
Also note that AROS just isn't that progressed yet as MorphOS is already. But it gained pace.
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Maybe, but MorphOS won't catch on in the real world that I live in. If MorphOS really cared about the Amiga (which clearly they do to an extent as they based their whole OS around it) and ($$$) wanted to make some real money they should ditch MorphOS and join AOS4.1 as thats where real money lies.
The MorphOS team have proved they can make a working OS and have played their cards and showed they have some real talent; now is the time to put it all to some real use and support the platform - the Amiga. All it takes is one phone call.
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So they are some documentations which says how AmigaOS 3.x behave in which situations? Do we have chance to find them are there opensource?
The complete AmigaOS 3 documentation has been officially released on "Amiga Developer CD". While it was not free of charge, it was publicly available and anyone (including me for example) could buy one.
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Maybe, but MorphOS won't catch on in the real world that I live in.
Come on. It is not real. It's the Matrix. Wake up, Neo. ;-)
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For many people, neither is any of the
So what you want is for the X1000, which will cost "north of £1500" to be marketed as a UAE box? Even when the OS4 version of UAE is markedly less advanced than the windows version, and when fpga based solutions costing a fraction are available now?
I swear every time I read this sort of tripe, the reasons for my misgivings over AmigaNG are made all the more clear.
I was merely stating that it would be a nicety, a great bonus feature as it were; there is so much to 'Amiga' than gaming - perhaps I should have put that in brackets I didn't mean use that as a means to market the product - sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Maybe, but MorphOS won't catch on in the real world that I live in.
Neither can OS4. They are relics. Their one and only shot of making a viable niche for themselves as anything other than a hobby ended a decade ago.
If MorphOS really cared about the Amiga (which clearly they do to an extent as they based their whole OS around it) and ($$$) wanted to make some real money they should ditch MorphOS and join AOS4.1 as thats where real money lies.
There is no "real money" in the Amiga. It is a hobbyist market. The sooner you wake up to the fact the better.
The MorphOS team have proved they can make a working OS and have played their cards and showed they have some real talent; now is the time to put it all to some real use and support the platform - the Amiga. All it takes is one phone call.
This has to be one of the most saddening and slightly creepy posts I've read on here in a long, long time. Do you even know the crap that went off over the past 10 years?!
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@djrikki
MOS is a good thing for AmigaOS as it ensures good competition and evolution. it is also legal and has it's place in the Amiga ecosystem.
Leave it be and don't fuel needless flame wars.
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Snippets of it yes. We are talking about different people now with different ideas and goals and ambitions. You can't brand them (Hyperion) with the 'crap' that went off over the past 10 years. A.Inc no longer has anything to do with Amiga, Hyperion do, Hyperion are the ones taking the OS positively forward step by step.
It maybe a hobbyist market right now, but it certainly doesn't have to be this way forever. Yes you are right this is probably the final chance for the Amiga, I am not that naive I don't expect Amiga to 'take over the world'. But regardless the world is still a place of opportunities, it can't be just PC and Apple forever - every industry has to have competition or there is stagnation and no innovation. With the right management team in place and dedication there is nothing at all stopping them from taking a bigger chunk.
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MorphOS should get their own forum or if they have one.. use it. MorphOS isn't Amiga and Amiga isn't MorphOS.
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How is this related to MorphOS legal status? amiga.org is open and free for all platforms. If you don't like it, you can always leave yourself.
At least could you please start your own thread about your ranting?
We are talking about different people now with different ideas and goals and ambitions. You can't brand them (Hyperion) with the 'crap' that went off over the past 10 years.
Actually they're the very same people. Ben Hermans is again involved with Hyperion and also A-Eon. See these:
http://sintonen.fi/temp/hermans.txt and
http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans/
You expect anyone to work with people like this?
There indeed is problems, but we're not it. There is absolutely no way anyone from MorphOS would ever be involved with Hermans. I'd rather see MorphOS die off than merge it with what AmigaOS is today.
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Snippets of it yes.
So in fact the answer is no, you don't know what went off.
We are talking about different people now with different ideas and goals and ambitions. You can't brand them (Hyperion) with the 'crap' that went off over the past 10 years. A.Inc no longer has anything to do with Amiga, Hyperion do, Hyperion are the ones taking the OS positively forward step by step.
No sir, I'm not talking about different people. And if you knew your history you would understand that.
It maybe a hobbyist market right now, but it certainly doesn't have to be this way forever.
I've tried to be gentle about this but it's clearly not sinking in. Right here we go:
Amiga, in all its flavours is currently and will forever be a hobbyist market. The desktop market is saturated, mature and there isn't either the resources or money required to make even a dent into it. It's sewn up.
Yes you are right this is probably the final chance for the Amiga,
I didn't say that. I said and I quote: "They are relics. Their one and only shot of making a viable niche for themselves as anything other than a hobby ended a decade ago."
Emphasis mine. The Amiga is a hobby machine. Get used to it.
But regardless the world is still a place of opportunities, it can't be just PC and Apple forever - every industry has to have competition or there is stagnation and no innovation.
It's called open source. You might want to look into it. Software is more and more becoming a commodity as the market matures.
Hardware too has long since gotten to the stage where outside of ultra high end gaming, it's "good enough". Right now the current market is pushing toward lifestyle PCs along the same lines as the iMac. Sure there are still big box systems out there, but smaller boxes with enough power are becoming more and more commonplace and laptops are now selling faster than both combined because put simply: People don't want to have hulking great towers in their homes if they don't need to.
Regular people will look at a Windows box and Mac and even once in a blue moon a Linux box and compare them for their needs. If PC World for instance started selling X1000's tomorrow at £1500, with a fully ported and optimised OS4 running on it, how well would it compare to either of those three in reality?
Answers on the back of a postcard to the usual address.
With the right management team in place and dedication there is nothing at all stopping them from taking a bigger chunk.
Except being 20 years behind the times, on a dead end cpu architecture (for desktop use),costing about x10 what a comparable box offers outside of this market does, having a tiny fraction of the developers for even just the Linux kernel and zero investment. But beyond that, sure, every chance in the world.
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MorphOS should get their own forum or if they have one.. use it. MorphOS isn't Amiga and Amiga isn't MorphOS.
"Platform X"-only sites are a dime a dozen.
The day Amiga.org officially no longer cares about the entire family of amigoid systems will be the day I leave the site.
The site caters for all things "amiga" and that's what makes it one of the very best amiga community sites there is.
Occasionally that means old arguments resurfacing between advocates of different systems (and I get as tired of those as the next man) but that's the price you pay for having a site where you can go no matter which platform you use.
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MorphOS should get their own forum or if they have one.. use it. MorphOS isn't Amiga and Amiga isn't MorphOS.
Please do not tell other users what should or should not be posted here. The owner of the site has decided to let all Amiga related platforms be discussed, as is clearly obvious if you look at the title of the category this thread is posted in.
Your posts could easily be considered outright trolling.
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It would be better if the MorphOS developers would thoroughly explain what MorphOS is in its Wikipedia page to avoid all of the confusions. Of course, neutral viewpoint is encouraged.
I'm more furious about the poor hardware conditions (the whole world neglected PowerPC) than the operating systems anyways.
Let's not fight but praise each other at best.
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Yes you are right this is probably the final chance for the Amiga,
Well now, that is something I can agree with you on. If the A1X1K is a financial-commercial failure, I can't see too much of a reason for OS4 to carry on. MOS is picking up sales with old Mac hardware, so there is a minor cash flow as incentive to carry on. I can't see the same for OS4, even SAM460 sales will most like be going to existing (although I will be an exception) SAM440 owners wanting more power.
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AOS4.1 as thats where real money lies.
I don't want some of what you have been taking because I don't think I'd ever be able to return from so far out.
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The complete AmigaOS 3 documentation has been officially released on "Amiga Developer CD". While it was not free of charge, it was publicly available and anyone (including me for example) could buy one.
From where ? Who owns it?
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From where ? Who owns it?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amiga+developer+cd
Part of it is even available for free:
http://www.haage-partner.de/download/AmigaOS/NDK39.lha
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amiga+developer+cd
Part of it is even available for free:
http://www.haage-partner.de/download/AmigaOS/NDK39.lha
Also try here (http://utilitybase.com/misc).
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You can't brand them (Hyperion) with the 'crap' that went off over the past 10 years.
If not them, who else ?
They helped making sure that MorphOS didn't get rebranded to AmigaOS.
They were the one who (9 years ago) promised to deliever an OS within 6 months at the cost of 50000$ (and than failed to deliver).
They signed those contracts tieing themselves to Amino-Clowns and AmigaOS to the boat-anchor called AmigaOne.
So whom else would you blame ? (and no, just because others also contributed doesn't mean they are any less to blame).
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WinUAE and Amikit with OS3.9 is the best option. As long as there is no compatibility between MacMorph, AROS and AmigaOS4 I do not want any of them.
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WinUAE and Amikit with OS3.9 is the best option. As long as there is no compatibility between MacMorph, AROS and AmigaOS4 I do not want any of them.
What about BPPCAmigaMorph, IBM-PCcompatibleAROS and TeronOS4.x?