Post by: OlafS3 on February 13, 2015, 11:08:55 PM
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/de/insolvenz/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
in english:
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/en/bankruptcy/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
Hyperion is bankrupt?
Post by: carvedeye on February 13, 2015, 11:14:45 PM
Post by: Gulliver on February 13, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Post by: kolla on February 13, 2015, 11:39:48 PM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 13, 2015, 11:48:50 PM
Post by: CodePoet on February 13, 2015, 11:51:32 PM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 13, 2015, 11:57:44 PM
(http://cdn3.coresites.mpora.com/whitelines_new/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/zebra-sharks.jpg)
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 12:03:34 AM
[Edit] That would explain why they released 4.1 FE. Either to get a quick buck before it ends or to give the community the last fruits of their labour before the end.
Will Trevor buy them now?
Post by: mingle on February 14, 2015, 12:07:04 AM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 12:12:26 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783931
Is it confirmed that it's OUR Hyperion?
I wondered about that, too. Not much coming up on the google...
Post by: Lionheart on February 14, 2015, 12:19:22 AM
Quote from: Hyperionmp
Who ever said that there would be a "return"? The cost of the Amiga litigation has put that prospect off for many years to come if ever.
Also, please no business advice.
We'll take our advice from people like Trevor, Matthew Leaman, Steven Solie (who came up with the "Hyperion Blog"), Jens S. from Individual, Michael from Cloanto etc. i.e. people and developers who have put their money where their mouth is or have actually contributed significantly to AmigaOS development.
Take a look at Trevor's recent Blog post and the picture he posted from the meeting in Brussels.
Those are the people that Hyperion management relies on for decision making.
And even if you think they are bad decisions, it is our money and we can spend it any way we want, yes, even on AmigaOS development.
Source (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35809&forum=33&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0#703022)
Funny how that worked out for you. :)
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 12:21:09 AM
Quote from: Lionheart;783934
Funny how that worked out for you. :)
http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=rimshot&play=true
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 12:25:39 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783931
Is it confirmed that it's OUR Hyperion?
[Edit] That would explain why they released 4.1 FE. Either to get a quick buck before it ends or to give the community the last fruits of their labour before the end.
Will Trevor buy them now?
if you look at this site:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/
there is this text:
"Hyperion and Individual Computers sign license agreement
Brussels, March 9, 2013
Hyperion Entertainment CVBA (Belgium) and Individual Computers GmbH (Germany) have signed a license agreement for use of Kickstart 1.3 and Kickstart 3.1 ROMs in processor accelerators for Amiga 500, Amiga 1000, Amiga 2000 and Amiga 2500."
and in the link I posted is "Hyperion Entertainment cvba"
Post by: XDelusion on February 14, 2015, 12:29:39 AM
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on February 14, 2015, 12:38:51 AM
Post by: XDelusion on February 14, 2015, 12:42:20 AM
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;783938
Good job finding that. Next achievement Amithlon will be restarted or open sourced.
Now that would be cause for celebration!!!
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 12:44:09 AM
Quote from: XDelusion;783939
Now that would be cause for celebration!!!
Unfortunately I have read that the developer of amithlon deleted amithlon and all of his backups because he was so angry.
Post by: slaapliedje on February 14, 2015, 12:48:33 AM
I'm sure someone somehow will buy it right up and just keep on trucking with it. Only makes sense for it to be Aeon.
slaapliedje
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 12:50:14 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;783940
Unfortunately I have read that the developer of amithlon deleted amithlon and all of his backups because he was so angry.
When? Why?
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;783940
Unfortunately I have read that the developer of amithlon deleted amithlon and all of his backups because he was so angry.
Why is that?
Also, I read at *ahem* Moobunny that the rights to AmigaOS 4 is not transferable according to their deal with Amiga Inc. (unless McEwan agrees) which would mean that HE could not transfer the OS to Trevor for example before the bankrupsy. The only chance now is to buy the whole company.
Could this be right?
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 12:53:44 AM
Quote from: ChaosLord;783944
When? Why?
I would have to search for the links. If I recall right he needed a license for the roms and there was a problem between Haage&Partner and AmigaInc. and he was between. At the end it seems he has deleted everything before he left the community (very unfortunately :( )
Post by: Rob on February 14, 2015, 12:58:48 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;783946
I would have to search for the links. If I recall right he needed a license for the roms and there was a problem between Haage&Partner and AmigaInc. and he was between. At the end it seems he has deleted everything before he left the community (very unfortunately :( )
Left the community? Bernie (umisef) is still around to this day.
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2015, 01:13:58 AM
(http://www.amiga.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=204&pictureid=1251)
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 03:17:28 AM
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 03:41:36 AM
Quote from: klx300r;783954
guys you really think A-Eon & Amigakit didn't know this was coming for a while now? They have spent alot of time & money getting new hardware and the AmiStore up & running recently and have been saying for a while that they have been working on many 'other' Amiga related projects. Looks like this one yet again came out before they could make a formal announcement ;-)
Whoa! It's like Déjà Vu all over again! Same thing I was thinking! :hammer:
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on February 14, 2015, 04:00:18 AM
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 04:07:30 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;783914
i have just read that on amiga-news:
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/de/insolvenz/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
in english:
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/en/bankruptcy/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
Hyperion is bankrupt?
Does this mean MorphOS won the war?
Post by: Gulliver on February 14, 2015, 04:16:24 AM
Quote from: ChaosLord;783957
Does this mean MorphOS won the war?
The war was lost like a decade ago by all parties.
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 04:19:29 AM
Quote from: ChaosLord;783957
Does this mean MorphOS won the war?
lol MorphOS still runs on old Macs and AROS still runs on everything else & this has been the case for quite some time:) don't start waving white flags yet Me Lord...there just might be a few Revive spells yet to be cast:)
on a serious note it's GREAT to see you're feeling better nowadays and typing away here more often! alas does this mean we'll be seeing a new Total Chaos AGA update;)
Post by: Duce on February 14, 2015, 04:32:47 AM
And when I think back about the minor qualms I had about having to once again pay for 4.1 FE after paying $100+ for an eternally "in beta" 4.1 update 1-6, the absolute hellscorn I got from some people when I said I felt it was a bit of a "cash grab" and a bit of a screw over to current OS 4.1 customers and faithfuls like myself, and the hateful PM's I got about it, I gotta chuckle.
People told me I was a negative plague amongst the NG Amiga scene, that "it's only $30, after all". $30 isn't much, but it was about $30 more than I wanted to pay after effectively paying $100+ for my original copy of 4.1 and being a paying beta tester/developer for the last 7 years. I recall one person telling me "you're the problem with the Amiga scene" because I dared question things. Welp, this "problem with the scene" has an extra $30 in his wallet to spend on good beer this weekend, I didn't buy 4.1 FE, and if I did, I'd be let down badly right about now.
It doesn't make me love my SAM and OS4 any less, though - and I hope talks are well underway so development continues on it, because I will continue to use it. I like it. You might not - and that's just fine. You, or I, for that matter - might not have ever cared for Hyperion's strong armed, egotistical manner of handling the franchise, but that's moot. I'm not a big fan of Microsoft's internal monopoly and politics either, but I use their products 99% of the time. I have no plans to get rid of my SAM (or MOS boxes) anytime soon.
I just hope the rights to OS4 get into the hands of someone that has some sense. The sense to realize that $3000+ PPC machines are not going to keep the OS4 scene thriving. You've cut off your nose to spite your face, and that pains me when the OS in itself is such a joy to use. But for 90% of people, it's not a $3000 joy - but I bet if you offered OS4 for PPC Mac, copies would fly off the proverbial shelves.
To whoever ends up with the rights - do the right thing. While PPC Mac's are not growing on trees anymore, please realize that you would sell many times the copies of the OS if you simply ported OS4 to the Mac PPC. The $3000 boutique style "super computer that can't even run an office suite" model isn't working. Cost of involvement in the OS4 platform is far too high to get the developers knocking on your door. You (and I) will be left behind for the cheaper platform, even in such a niche market.
No one is buying these to run paint programs, or silly ActiveX style desktop enhancement suites. No one is buying these to run rendering programs that run faster on an 8 year old PC. What people would really like to do is use these machines all day, every day, for their daily tasks. Word processing. Web browsing. Social media. The same things we do on our mainstream machines. $3000 machines isn't going to get us there anytime soon, but you will always, always have a market for them should you make them. You may not sell 10,000 a quarter, but you might also increase OS sales 50 fold if the darned OS ran on cheaper systems.
Nothing to me was more disappointing with my SAM purchase than the day I had to reach for my $50 cellular phone to look something up on the internet because the browser on the SAM would crash.
Post by: mingle on February 14, 2015, 04:54:26 AM
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 05:03:17 AM
Quote from: klx300r;783959
on a serious note it's GREAT to see you're feeling better nowadays and typing away here more often!
Thanx dewd! :) But if u see me type less than 66,666 chars per day on forums then it means I feel megafantastically awful.
I abandoned the Amiga forums, (even the responsible mature fun happy interesting AmigaCoding one too) for well over a year. I really didn't think anybody noticed I was gone. Also, I just kinda started assuming that everybody else left the Amiga community too and that everything had died. (This is because the amount of traffic on Amiga.org is quite a lot less these days than it used to be 5 years ago. Kinda sad.)
But now I got tricked into coming back and HEY! A bunch of my fave AmigaScenerz are still here!
Like that cRaZy klx300r dude. A very nice friendly chap that one. He is not dead after all! He is still chatting away as usual! :)
Quote
alas does this mean we'll be seeing a new Total Chaos AGA update;)
Well we can dream :)
But so far I am moving at the speed of the Greenland Ice Sheet.
In the dead of Winter.
During the last Ice Age.
So prob nothing will happen. But I do think up new spells all the time.
I really need to brainwash a new 99th level MegaC0der into being the main coder so I can be the assistant. That would work out 10,000x better than the current situation.
I also am having various hardware problems that I can't deal with.
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 05:10:13 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;783958
The war was lost like a decade ago by all parties.
When I set up the question I was expecting to get back an answer along the lines of "OS 3.x won the war years ago" or "OS 3.x won the war before it began, in the 1990s" or "680x0 has been winning the war every single day for 30 continuous years" :D
Post by: Cosmos on February 14, 2015, 05:36:47 AM
Quote from: ChaosLord;783964
When I set up the question I was expecting to get back an answer along the lines of "OS 3.x won the war years ago" or "OS 3.x won the war before it began, in the 1990s" or "680x0 has been winning the war every single day for 30 continuous years" :D
The PowerPC was a trap since the beginning by Bill Gates & Steve Jobs for killing the 68k evolution, killing Commodore & Atari, and for losing our time & energy on a dead-end...
Business is war... Be lucid, please...
:)
Post by: slimf on February 14, 2015, 06:08:10 AM
Believe me, he didn't want to go x86 - he had to because PowerPC simply was not in the race. They couldn't build machines fast enough on that architecture for a reasonable amount of money - so they did the smart thing and moved.. Amiga backed the wrong horse (PPC)..
It's a shame, but there was no conspiracy between Steve Jobs and Bill Gates to kill of competition - there wasn't any.
Post by:
Post by:
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2015, 06:45:32 AM
Quote from: slimf;783966
Commodore, Atari and others were already dead and buried when Steve Jobs decided to go x86.
Hate to burst your bubble, but Steve Jobs went from m68k to i486 in 1993 with NeXTStep, before Commodore went bust. He was not at all part of the PowerPC frency, Apple did that without him, and the first incarnations of what would become OSX, namely Rhapsody, was on x86 only.
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2015, 06:51:41 AM
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 06:56:33 AM
All is OK! It ain't over til the fat lady sings.
Chris
Post by: Senex on February 14, 2015, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: OlafS3;783940
Unfortunately I have read that the developer of amithlon deleted amithlon and all of his backups because he was so angry.
Not deleted. (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/256170.shtml)
Post by: Cosmos on February 14, 2015, 07:07:42 AM
Steve Jobs was reported to be extremely worried about the Amiga, but fortunately for him and Apple, Commodore had absolutely no idea what they were doing"
==> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2005/01/amiga/
:)
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on February 14, 2015, 08:48:22 AM
http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/02/14/hyperion-says-the-news-of-our-demise-is-greatly-exaggerated/ (http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/02/14/hyperion-says-the-news-of-our-demise-is-greatly-exaggerated/)
Post by: spirantho on February 14, 2015, 08:51:01 AM
I don't believe it.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 08:51:15 AM
Quote from: AmigaOldskooler;783978
Hyperion says: "The news of our demise is greatly exaggerated":
http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/02/14/hyperion-says-the-news-of-our-demise-is-greatly-exaggerated/ (http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/02/14/hyperion-says-the-news-of-our-demise-is-greatly-exaggerated/)
"This is the result of an unfortunate administrative mishap by a third party and is in the process of being addressed/cleared up."
someone with access to the account of Hyperion on amigaworld. Whatever this exactly means
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 08:53:13 AM
Quote from: spirantho;783979
Surely you don't mean... that somebody was wrong on the internet?!
I don't believe it.
no it was not the internet.
"while in Belgium whilst it comes to administrative and judicial matters"
if the information itselve would be wrong they could simply ask for correction (even in belgium). I think that is EU law.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 09:01:41 AM
Quote from: Senex;783972
Not deleted. (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/256170.shtml)
thanx for clarification. I read it somewhere when I was searching for informations about Amithlon but obviously the informations was wrong
@Bernd Meyer
you obviously are still around (at least reading). Why do you not use Aros Rom Replacements for Amithlon? It would be great to have it again, there would be a lot of people willing even to pay for it
Post by: guest11527 on February 14, 2015, 09:37:10 AM
Regardless of this process, it means also that - in worst case - the assets of the company are sold, or remain the property of the curator if they cannot be sold. In other words, it could mean that the rights on AmigaOs will be lost in space and time, owned by someone who does not even know what this is all about, and all hope to do anything in this market will be lost forever.
On the bright side, this is at least a very clear indicator that the business model of Hyperion was/is non-working, and it means that - in case they will be able to re-finance themselves - they have to re-think their model (or rather, the curator will have to help them). That could also mean that there is a slight chance that they might probably learn that there is a (albeit small) demand for AmigaOs in the retro-market, and there is a life in AmigaOs beyond PPC, since PPC did apparently not work so well.
Anyhow, who knows what the future will bring. We can only just wait and see.
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 09:37:22 AM
I mean, being thought of as gone bust is ... really really bad, right? This way of handling it actually doesn't make me all convinsed that they havn't gone insolvent. Unless they are late starters and the overdrive will be underway this afternoon or something.
OK, we need some fact checking now. Bankrupsy handlings are public documentations in Sweden. Is it the same in Belgium? Can someone check what is really going on?
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 09:57:48 AM
http://www.eurojuris.be/en/node/37684
I've e-mailed him and asked him if he is the curator and if so, what is going on? Hopefully he will answer me. If he does, I will post his reply here (as I don't have a working AmigaWorld account).
Post by: guest11527 on February 14, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783984
I mean, being thought of as gone bust is ... really really bad, right? This way of handling it actually doesn't make me all convinsed that they havn't gone insolvent.I don't think anybody doubt that they have not. But you confuse two things here: Being insolvent, and going out of business. Being insolvent means: "I cannot pay my employees and my bills right now". Going out of business means "I stop by buisness". If you are insolvent, the curator cares for handling of the affairs. What belgium law has to say about this I do not know, but in Germany, employees would receive some partial payment by the state for a short while, until the issue is resolved. It is not unusual that an insolvent company finds some way to refinance itself, and it will then be back in business soon. Only if all attempts fail, the company goes down.
Quote from: Yasu;783984
OK, we need some fact checking now. Bankrupsy handlings are public documentations in Sweden. Is it the same in Belgium? Can someone check what is really going on?
I neither know Belgium law, but in German law, it is also public. Actually, I believe it is reasonable to expect that in any law because it means that any investor or contractor of such a company should have a chance to protect his interest. Otherwise, a company just could go out of business, taking all the assets with them, and found a new one, ignoring the interests of its contractors. This sounds outright illegal to me.
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 10:29:00 AM
Well, I do know the difference but it's still a lot more serious than "just a misunderstanding" that HE claims. But sure, insolvent would mean that Trevor can invest money into the business, keeping it floating. Other than that it does look bleak. From what I know HE only have two paid employees. So if they can not pay their bills then they really don't have much chance of finding ways to do so.
Laws can be very different from country to country. But I suspect that they are quite alike in the EU.
Post by: A1260 on February 14, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 10:40:02 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783987
@Thomas_Richter
Well, I do know the difference but it's still a lot more serious than "just a misunderstanding" that HE claims. But sure, insolvent would mean that Trevor can invest money into the business, keeping it floating. Other than that it does look bleak. From what I know HE only have two paid employees. So if they can not pay their bills then they really don't have much chance of finding ways to do so.
Laws can be very different from country to country. But I suspect that they are quite alike in the EU.
I can only say about Germany but propably it is similar in all european countries (i will look at Belgium law for fun too). There is someone that has to get money from you and requests it and you do not have it. The company can have lots of work, insolvency only means there is not enough on your bank account at a certain point of time. This person takes the evidences (contracts and so on) to court. The court checks it and send you a new request (with additional fees for the court). if you do not pay this too you are officially insolvent and a attorney is appointed by court who takes control on everything. The company still is active but every bigger expense has to be approved by the official attorney. That is how I know it from germany.
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 10:40:08 AM
"The company announced to start an opposition procedure according to the Belgian Bankruptcy Act. In that case the Court can take a decision to annul the first Court decision which means it is like no insolvency proceeding has even been pronounced."
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 10:44:15 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783990
I just got this reply from the curator:
"The company announced to start an opposition procedure according to the Belgian Bankruptcy Act.%&$#?@! In that case the Court can take a decision to annul the first Court decision which means it is like no insolvency proceeding has even been pronounced."
It sounds like one court declared them bankrupt but they still have options to let it check by another court.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 10:46:47 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783990
I just got this reply from the curator:
"The company announced to start an opposition procedure according to the Belgian Bankruptcy Act.%&$#?@! In that case the Court can take a decision to annul the first Court decision which means it is like no insolvency proceeding has even been pronounced."
this is interesting:
http://www.lawyersbelgium.com/bankruptcy-procedure-in-belgium
sounds more or less like in Germany
Post by: alphadec on February 14, 2015, 11:07:11 AM
So like I have said before the only future for amiga is the users builds a amiga fpga, for users.
Post by: AmiDude on February 14, 2015, 11:14:19 AM
Finally the PPC OS4.0 joke is over! It's time now for the software developers & hardware ingeneers (with an Amiga heart) to concentrate on our beloved 68k Amiga again!
:pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 11:23:22 AM
But even if they survive it raises a difficult question: who went to court to declare the insolvency and why?
Post by: guest11527 on February 14, 2015, 11:29:31 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783997
They are not dead yet.
But even if they survive it raises a difficult question: who went to court to declare the insolvency and why?
I don't know what happened, but in situations with no money coming in and your company not being able to pay, the best you - as a company owner - can do is to declare your company insolvent yourself. Actually, *not* doing that in such a situation can cause a lot of trouble (as in: It is even illegal not to in Germany, you are required to do so.) "Insolvenzverschleppung" is the German term for that.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 11:31:28 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783997
They are not dead yet.
But even if they survive it raises a difficult question: who went to court to declare the insolvency and why?
+1
it is too early "to dance on the grave" but it is not just a "misunderstanding" either. Obviously someone who can proof that they have to pay him has gone to court. Either they can proof that the request is wrong or pay or be bankrupt.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 11:34:06 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783997
They are not dead yet.
But even if they survive it raises a difficult question: who went to court to declare the insolvency and why?
when someone in germany goes to court it normally means he is hoping to get his money (or at least some of it) and the debitor is not willing or able to pay it voluntary (most cases not able to).
Post by: AmiDude on February 14, 2015, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: Yasu;783997
They are not dead yet.
"Dead" is perhaps premature... How about "One foot in the grave", then? ;)
Post by: Spectre660 on February 14, 2015, 11:43:03 AM
Can happen when your lawyer does not show up for the case or failing to file documentation on time.
can be caused by miscommunication of the date and time for the court matter or no notification being given by the court due to an "Administrative error" .
Quote from: OlafS3;784000
+1
it is too early "to dance on the grave" but it is not just a "misunderstanding" either. Obviously someone who can proof that they have to pay him has gone to court. Either they can proof that the request is wrong or pay or be bankrupt.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
Quote from: Spectre660;784004
Looks like what could happen when a default judgement is given.
Can happen when your lawyer does not show up for the case or failing to file documentation on time.
can be caused by miscommunication of the date and time for the court matter or no notification being given by the court due to an "Administrative error" .
but there is obviously a claim against them otherwise no court would be active. We will see what happens.
Post by: ElPolloDiabl on February 14, 2015, 11:53:53 AM
Post by: Spectre660 on February 14, 2015, 11:58:25 AM
But there are a couple companies who have a vested interest in the survival of the powerpc version of AmigaOS 4.x that Hyperion could have approached for help if they did not have the funds to settle a debt.
Quote from: OlafS3;784005
but there is obviously a claim against them otherwise no court would be active. We will see what happens.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: Spectre660;784008
True.
But there are a couple companies who have a vested interest in the survival of the powerpc version of AmigaOS 4.x that Hyperion could have approached for help if they did not have the funds to settle a debt.
Yes and no. Getting the money to survive the crisis is one thing but a company needs resources for development to pay people that work for them including freelancers. If they just have enough money to survive as a company AmigaOS development also stalls (except some people contributing voluntary). But we cannot know, most is in the dark right now.
Post by: Terminills on February 14, 2015, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: Spectre660;784008
True.
But there are a couple companies who have a vested interest in the survival of the powerpc version of AmigaOS 4.x that Hyperion could have approached for help if they did not have the funds to settle a debt.
Or one of them is listed as a creditor. ;)
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: Terminills;784011
Or one of them is listed as a creditor. ;)
Now THAT would be interesting!
Post by: kolla on February 14, 2015, 01:13:24 PM
Quote from: Cosmos;783973
Steve Jobs was reported to be extremely worried about the Amiga, but fortunately for him and Apple, Commodore had absolutely no idea what they were doing"
==> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2005/01/amiga/
:)
Hardly accurate, Steve Jobs had other worries. He left Apple in september of 1985 to start NeXT.
Post by: Boot_WB on February 14, 2015, 01:47:21 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;783967
Jesus Christ guys. Thanks for finding this. I ordered a system from Amigakit and it' been on pending for a week now and was wondering what was going on. I sent an email to them to cancel the order and send a refund right away. Good find and amazing community.
Congratulations.
Anyone else who has completed recently, or is in the process of buying, should check out the Uk consumer contracts regulations
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations
Which replace the distance selling regulations as of last year.
Summary: right to return up to 14 days after delivery.
Or wait and see how the bankruptcy proceedings go.
Post by: Madshib on February 14, 2015, 02:44:49 PM
Post by: Terminills on February 14, 2015, 03:11:24 PM
Quote from: Madshib;784025
Hopefully it will be open sourced. Is this a possibility?
No it isn't possible. Hyperion own a license to modify not ownership.
Post by:
Hello Charles,
Your system has been being built this week, it takes a few days to assemble the system and install the software and quality test it before dispatch. It is almost completely assembled now.
The AmigaONE X1000 is from A-EON Technology, not Hyperion. A-EON has not gone bankrupt.
Post by:
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 03:30:15 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784030
Am I overreacitng?
Yup.......
Post by:
Post by: guest11527 on February 14, 2015, 03:34:12 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784030
Am I overreacitng?
At this point - likely. Just because a company is insolvent does not mean that it is going out of business. It is, however, a good indication that something is wrong with their business model. That, however, is probably old news.
Thus, if you expected a brilliant new fancy Os on a brilliant new powerful shiny hardware, I believe you were wrong to begin with. On the other hand, if you expected a hobby system you can play with, then that won't go away regardless of Hyperion being in or out of business. Development will always be slow, and the whole system will never be mainstream anyhow. It's not that Hyperion was fast in delivering bugfixes or a stable Os in first place - how could they with all the limited man power, no surprise, and I don't even have bad feelings about this. It is pretty much what you should expect if you invest in such a system. Which is, quite frankly, the reason why I don't... I don't get the point for my use cases. But it's your hobby, and I certainly don't want to talk you out of it.
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 03:38:46 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784030
but that's really crossing the ethical line and looking the other way. Am I overreacitng?
I think that all depends on whether they know something that we don't and just can't state it at this moment in time. When you're spending a lot of cash on a computer then I don't blame you for wanting to know what support you're going to get for both the hardware and OS. I really like my X1000, but I'm certainly watching events here with more than just casual interest.
I'm going to wait for official statements from the real parties involved here. We can speculate all day (god knows we've all done that over the years over various subjects), but I'm going to wait for some hard facts posted in public by reliable parties.
Post by: Terminills on February 14, 2015, 03:44:12 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784037
but I'm going to wait for some hard facts posted in public by reliable parties.
Who would that be? I would think the Belgian government would be pretty "official"
Post by: OlafS3 on February 14, 2015, 03:46:02 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784032
How's that Gizmo? Can you explain?
I would say that too. The OS itself is still running like before and will continue to do so. The driver support is from A-eon anyway. The only thing affected is how will development be after "Final Edition" but it was said already that nobody should wait for it (4.2). So if your interest is to use AmigaOS and you can afford it then go for it.
Post by:
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 03:49:24 PM
Quote from: Terminills;784039
Who would that be? I would think the Belgian government would be pretty "official"
Well, it would be someone like Hyperion themselves, or A-EON or Amigakit. As opposed to those posting guesses based on their biased positions on personal wishes.
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 04:00:26 PM
An AmigaONE X1000 takes many hours for us to assemble, install OS, RadeonHD and other drivers and then configure to the customer's exact requirements of their order. Its a custom built computer, carefully hand assembled with care- not a system that rolls off a production line.
This is the process that your system has been through this week. Every system gets quality control tested then for a few days to ensure there are no issues on delivery due to the logistics of shipping such a large package around the world.
The system is from A-EON Technology and is supplied with full warranty. Hyperion's arrangements do not affect warranty or functionality. A-EON has invested heavily in software for the AmigaONE X1000 and will continue to do so in future. AMIStore is a large commitment and some exciting software releases are due in May for existing X1000 customers. None of this investment comes from Hyperion or is affected by Hyperion.
Quote
I will ever buy anything form Amigakit againThat's of course disappointing.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 04:08:02 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784032
How's that Gizmo? Can you explain?
Without trying to come off flippint and with all due respect, you're not conducting business with Hyperion. You're conducting business with AmigaKit. Again with no disrespect towards your intentions, you seem angry and that anger, IMHO, is misdirected. AmigaKit is a very reputable company. :)
Arggg! I must go for now and shovel more snow... c'mon spring!
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 04:14:55 PM
trust me when I say you want Amigakit to take their time assembling and stress testing your new custom made X1000 to make sure it's 100% when it arrives at your house. It's a big stress to package it up and send it back across the pond so let them make sure it's right :)
PM sent.
Post by: cgutjahr on February 14, 2015, 04:18:30 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784044
you're not conducting business with Hyperion. You're conducting business with AmigaKit.
He's buying a ridiculously expensive product who's only reason for existance is "it is running AmigaOS". Now the company funding further OS4 development seems to be in severe trouble. Rethinking his decision to buy a X1000 makes sense, IMHO. Personally, I don't think OS4's situation has changed much, but if he comes to a different conclusion...
And depending on how much Amigakit/A-EON know, at least their claims that the system would include AmigaOS 4.2 and multicore support one day might have been... unfortunate.
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
Quote from: klx300r;784045
@ cpaek72
trust me when I say you want Amigakit to take their time assembling and stress testing your new custom made X1000 to make sure it's 100% when it arrives at your house. It's a big stress to package it up and send it back across the pond so let them make sure it's right :)
PM sent.
That's so true.
Wait until you see the way it is packed! I think a tank could have run over the box without denting the X1000 inside due to all of the padding. :D
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 04:20:01 PM
It has taken quite a while to assemble his system this week to his bespoke requirements. He has been refunded now and we will be disassembling his system down next week.
Post by:
I purchase from Ebay all the time and I know what I'm getting into when I purchase a product with no support, because the seller clearly states that it's been used or is a retro product. But when you purchase a new computer Amiga or not, you expect certain things to be out in the open and Hyperion being bankrupt is a little small detail that just got leaked. Amigakit sounds like they've known for a while from the email they sent me. If it stated on their website that os4 currently has no support from Hyperion then I would have purchased with a sound mind, but no one wants this information to be out there, especially the guys that are creating hardware that rely on os4 to be their main operating system. To say that to buy into Amiga is to let go of all notions of consumer rights is ridiculous. Do you disagree Gizmo?
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 04:29:39 PM
I don't know your full situation with Amigakit so can't really comment on it. I just want to let you know that my X1000 won't be for sale anytime soon, just like my A1000 & A1200 and I intend to keep the party going :hammer::)
btw, guess you figured out that I'm a glass half full type of guy;)
Post by:
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 04:35:40 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784049
Look they gave me my refund and I am not angry. I only want the information to be out there so that no one else makes a purchases without clearly knowing all the facts. They are selling the x1000 system with os4 FE as the main operating system on their website. Let's not be fanboys here and clearly see the situation as it is.
I purchase from Ebay all the time and I know what I'm getting into when I purchase a product with no support, because the seller clearly states that it's been used or is a retro product. But when you purchase a new computer Amiga or not, you expect certain things to be out in the open and Hyperion being bankrupt is a little small detail that just got leaked. Amigakit sounds like they've known for a while from the email they sent me. If it stated on their website that os4 currently has no support from Hyperion then I would have purchased with a sound mind, but no one wants this information to be out there, especially the guys that are creating hardware that rely on os4 to be their main operating system. To say that to buy into Amiga is to let go of all notions of consumer rights is ridiculous. Do you disagree Gizmo?
No, I do not disagree with your decision to cancel based on your personal feelings, which is why I said "no disrespect towards your intentions". :)
And, as more info comes out on Hyperion, you might change your mind and could always reorder later.
@AmigaKit
Probably won't get an answer to this but, are you still selling the X1000 with the intent of delivering OS4.2 (for free) or in any manner?
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: amigakit;784048
@klx300r
It has taken quite a while to assemble his system this week to his bespoke requirements. He has been refunded now and we will be disassembling his system down next week.
sorry to hear that as someone who used to work in a 'custom' furniture manufaturer many years ago I can totally relate. Not knowing all the details involved in this transaction, I can only recommend that you be totally up front with future customers about realistic turn around times.
Post by: klx300r on February 14, 2015, 04:40:56 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784051
I'm glad KLX300r. I really did want the system and I will consider it if someone picks up the pieces of this os4 debacle. If it's a slight slippage and they figure out to carry on that would be great. I'm not here to bring down the x1000 as I think it's a great system.
fair enough :) Our community has always been helpful to each other through good times and the bad and I'm sure we'll be here for many more years yet as 'they' tried to kill us for good too many times and WE THE COMMUNITY are still here in 2015!!! without US there is no 'Amiga' :hammer:
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 04:42:11 PM
Quote
Amigakit sounds like they've known for a while
I am sorry- this is plain wrong, we did not know for a while at all. We are in close relationship with A-EON projects which are ongoing for benefit of the X1000 system and future systems.
Quote
If it stated on their website that os4 currently has no support from Hyperion
The Hyperion Support Forums and all websites are fully operational and are going nowhere. There is no change to any support mechanisms from us, A-EON or Hyperion. If there ever was in the future, AmigaKit and A-EON would step in and provide alternative Support mechanisms.
Quote
I can only recommend that you be totally up front with future customers about realistic turn around timesIt is stated on our website in our shipping guides and when you place an order in Checkout that all built to order computer systems have an assembly time of up to 10 business days. This is to allow us to configure the system to customers needs and fully quality test it. In fact to pack and X1000 takes a few hours just in itself as we double box the system and shrink wrap every component to keep it safe in transit.
Post by:
Post by:
Post by: Kremlar on February 14, 2015, 04:48:25 PM
Curious about the "many hours" it takes to assemble these systems. Is this an over exaggeration? It takes about 30 minutes to assemble a PC nowadays. What is different about an X1000?
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 04:53:06 PM
From AW!
Hyperionmp
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 13-Feb-2015 23:42:38 [ #60 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 466
From: Unknown
@OlafS25
The quote a famous writer: "the news of our demise is greatly exaggerated" ;)
This is the result of an unfortunate administrative mishap by a third party and is in the process of being addressed/cleared up.
This may take a while as everything takes a while in Belgium whilst it comes to administrative and judicial matters.
Those dancing on our grave, sorry guys, no party here ;)
Hyperion Entertainment Directors
Post by:
Quote from: klx300r;784054
fair enough :) Our community has always been helpful to each other through good times and the bad and I'm sure we'll be here for many more years yet as 'they' tried to kill us for good too many times and WE THE COMMUNITY are still here in 2015!!! without US there is no 'Amiga' :hammer:
I have the 500, 1200 and the 2000. I love the Amiga, both original and NG. It's more the community than the hardware. You see a lot of infighting between the two groups, but I'm agnostic to the whole thing and just love what it gave me in the past and I want to give back to it by supporting future hardware as well.
I purchased os4 for classic and will check it out before committing to a full on NG system in the future. Should have listened to the forums earlier when someone actually suggested that.
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 04:53:30 PM
Before a customer purchases an AmigaONE X1000, in Checkout it states that the build will take up to 10 days, so customers know before they buy it won't be simply pulled off a shelf and packed immediately. Remember that every X1000 is different, assembled bespoke to the customer's order with care. This is not a low cost budget PC that is quickly thrown together.
The customer in question here opened a Support Ticket within 1 day asking why we had not shipped the X1000, we responded immediately and explained that it would be a week or so before it would be despatched from us.
Our order history pages also provide customers with updated information on the system build.
Post by:
Quote from: amigakit;784062
@Kremlar
Before a customer purchases an AmigaONE X1000, in Checkout it states that the build will take up to 10 days, so customers know before they buy it won't be simply pulled off a shelf and packed immediately. Remember that every X1000 is different, assembled bespoke to the customer's order with care. This is not a low cost budget PC that is quickly thrown together.
The customer in question here opened a Support Ticket within 1 day asking why we had not shipped the X1000, we responded immediately and explained that it would be a week or so before it would be despatched from us.
Our order history pages also provide customers with updated information on the system build.
Hey Amigakit, that's totally a lie. I asked why the order I place was on pending. I wanted understand your ordering system and was not sure if the order had gone through. When you explained to me how it all worked I was fine with waiting. I did not expect the order to ship through in a single day. Wow, your lack of truth is truly disturbing here. I could post all of our correspondence on this forum for everyone to see, but I would rather not. You should post my address and my credit card info while your at it.
Post by: Lionheart on February 14, 2015, 05:03:19 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784060
@ All,
From AW!
Hyperionmp
Re: Hyperion Entertainment bankrupt?
Posted on 13-Feb-2015 23:42:38 [ #60 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 466
From: Unknown
@OlafS25
The quote a famous writer: "the news of our demise is greatly exaggerated" ;)
This is the result of an unfortunate administrative mishap by a third party and is in the process of being addressed/cleared up.
This may take a while as everything takes a while in Belgium whilst it comes to administrative and judicial matters.
Those dancing on our grave, sorry guys, no party here ;)
Hyperion Entertainment Directors
Whether or not that is true remains to be seen. However, it seems a little odd that someone posted that with Hyperion's account on Amigaworld.net while Hyperion hasn't even made an announcement addressing it on their own forum.
Post by: NorthWay on February 14, 2015, 05:19:23 PM
Quote from: Yasu;783997
who went to court to declare the insolvency and why?
In Norway the IRS equivalent will send you to court if you don't pay your taxes or have otherwise outstanding payments to the government.
Post by: modrobert on February 14, 2015, 05:24:01 PM
Jokes aside, Amiga Operating Systems tend to age really well with or without companies backing the development, perhaps even better without, the community takes care of that.
The X1000 is really an impressive hardware design in my opinion, which actually requires Linux to support both CPU cores and full 4GB RAM configuration. My point is that even if the future of Amiga OS 4.x is uncertain, the hardware still have OS support. The only thing holding me back is the price, but you can't expect PC prices without mass production for a custom design like this.
Post by: Rob on February 14, 2015, 05:26:04 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784061
I have the 500, 1200 and the 2000. I love the Amiga, both original and NG. It's more the community than the hardware. You see a lot of infighting between the two groups, but I'm agnostic to the whole thing and just love what it gave me in the past and I want to give back to it by supporting future hardware as well.
I purchased os4 for classic and will check it out before committing to a full on NG system in the future. Should have listened to the forums earlier when someone actually suggested that.
To be honest I thought that all the infighting might have put off altogether. Hope you have fun experimenting with the classic version on UAE.
Post by: ChuckT on February 14, 2015, 05:39:53 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784049
Look they gave me my refund and I am not angry. I only want the information to be out there so that no one else makes a purchases without clearly knowing all the facts. They are selling the x1000 system with os4 FE as the main operating system on their website. Let's not be fanboys here and clearly see the situation as it is.
I purchase from Ebay all the time and I know what I'm getting into when I purchase a product with no support, because the seller clearly states that it's been used or is a retro product. But when you purchase a new computer Amiga or not, you expect certain things to be out in the open and Hyperion being bankrupt is a little small detail that just got leaked. Amigakit sounds like they've known for a while from the email they sent me. If it stated on their website that os4 currently has no support from Hyperion then I would have purchased with a sound mind, but no one wants this information to be out there, especially the guys that are creating hardware that rely on os4 to be their main operating system. To say that to buy into Amiga is to let go of all notions of consumer rights is ridiculous. Do you disagree Gizmo?
I see it as a mutual responsibility. It involves a third party so you should be going after Hyperion for them not announcing their condition but since no money changed hands, do they owe you anything when they aren't dealing directly with you?.
The other issue is that Commodore went bankrupt years ago and there is a big difference between a company like Commodore and Hyperion that has maybe two or more employees. This is a hard market because anything you buy today is already obsolete from products being in the pipeline and if Commodore went out of business then what makes you think that another provider has a better chance long term? Just look at the browser wars for IBM; Companies like Sun have to give away their products for free and companies like Google are giving their search engine away for free but they make their money on advertising and search.
You could have asked the company for a financial statement to see their financial viability.
There is a difference between Ebay and another company. When I buy from Ebay, I know that most of the time I'm getting "used" and when you buy from "Amigakit", you are getting old stock or new stock. When you buy from the public on Ebay, you are getting the product from a non-professional who may or may not represent the condition of the product. When you are buying from Amigakit, you are getting what you ordered.
Lets see some benchmarks of Amiga computers today against the PCs of today. You are going up against the most powerful software and hardware in the world. It is your mutual responsibility to understand that there are other options.
Post by: ChuckT on February 14, 2015, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Cosmos;783965
The PowerPC was a trap since the beginning by Bill Gates & Steve Jobs for killing the 68k evolution, killing Commodore & Atari, and for losing our time & energy on a dead-end...
Business is war... Be lucid, please...
:)
I don't think the owners of Commodore went to bed broke and penniless. I think they got to a certain point where they didn't invest any more money into the business while they were taking home big money.
Ask yourself why there wasn't a Vic III chip? Ask yourself why there wasn't an 80 column Commodore 64. Ask yourself why there wasn't a 6502 computer with LCD screen. Ask yourself why Commodore had the money to make a SID chip but never go any further developing a more advanced sound chip.
Ask yourself why Apple could survive at charging three times as much as Commodore and survive and why Commodore just didn't raise prices to survive?
Why did Amiga have to have all of those advanced things to survive instead of being more Commodore 64ish? Having three coprocessors to design for takes longer than program and design for one.
I think if Commodore came out with a SID 2 chip, a Vic 3 chip, a basic Amiga without all of those co-processors, an LCD 6502 computer then there would have been a future but you have to re-invest in your company and not run it into the ground.
They were basically gouging their Amiga customers. They upgraded the computers from an Agnus chip to Fat Agnes, updated the operating system and charged more for all those updates and it alienated customers because it put customers on a faster pace to buy. Back then I bought an Amiga 500 and people told me it was a lot of money and I couldn't convince them to buy because of that. The upgrading and fast pace made people's computers incompatible with running the latest software. People bought an Amiga without a hard drive and couldn't do things without a hard drive. And upgrading the Amiga 500 to the capabilities of an Amiga 200 just cost more and it would have better if they just kept the Amiga 1000 case and keyboard. The rat race for more more more became too expensive for people and alienated their audience because then you have a smaller user base. Peripherals were cheaper for the IBM and Amiga users were being gouged so when there is a demand for high priced components, you are actually running a boat like Commodore and the USS Commodore became a cruise ship charging cruise ship prices instead of being a ferry. Lower prices = more customers which could equal more profits. When you raise prices, the supply and demand is affected and you sell less computers for less profits.
Think about this: You just bought an Amiga, it was an expense and six months later, Commodore upgrades it. You're catering to a select few and alienating everyone else.
So ask yourself: Did the owners take too much money out of the company?
Post by: Lionheart on February 14, 2015, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: modrobert;784068
The X1000 is really an impressive hardware design in my opinion, which actually requires Linux to support both CPU cores and full 4GB RAM configuration. My point is that even if the future of Amiga OS 4.x is uncertain, the hardware still have OS support. The only thing holding me back is the price, but you can't expect PC prices without mass production for a custom design like this.
It was an impressive hardware design more than 10 years ago, but certainly not today and especially not with a $3,000 price tag. Unlike the original Amiga, the X1000 has neither a hardware or price advantage. Its only real selling point is that it is able to run Amiga OS4, which is only an advantage when selling to die-hard Amiga fans as even Linux can do more than it. And why buy an X1000 to use Linux when you can by a more powerful PC for less than 1/3 the price of an X1000?
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 07:03:36 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784079
It was an impressive hardware design more than 10 years ago, but certainly not today and especially not with a $3,000 price tag. Unlike the original Amiga, the X1000 has neither a hardware or price advantage. Its only real selling point is that it is able to run Amiga OS4, which is only an advantage when selling to die-hard Amiga fans as even Linux can do more than it. And why buy an X1000 to use Linux when you can by a more powerful PC for less than 1/3 the price of an X1000?
That's your opinion. Many would disagree. ;)
I think it is worth the price tag and so I bought one.
The reason I didn't buy a cheap PC to run Linux is because I don't want to run Linux, I want to run OS4 so that is the selling point that counts.
Your argument is like telling someone who paid $30,000 for a Harley Davidson that he should have bout at $15,000 Kia because the Car has 4 wheels and airbags. You're missing the point that the guy wanted a motorbike. :D
Post by: ferrellsl on February 14, 2015, 07:15:26 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784083
That's your opinion. Many would disagree. ;)
I think it is worth the price tag and so I bought one.
The reason I didn't buy a cheap PC to run Linux is because I don't want to run Linux, I want to run OS4 so that is the selling point that counts.
Your argument is like telling someone who paid $30,000 for a Harley Davidson that he should have bout at $15,000 Kia because the Car has 4 wheels and airbags. You're missing the point that the guy wanted a motorbike. :D
Sorry, but I have to agree with LionHeart. There's nothing compelling enough about an outdated operating system such as OS4 that would make me pay $3K USD for hardware to run it on. A few years back (2008) I was able to purchase one of the last PegII systems produced and I bought a copy of OS4 and MorphOS to go with it. My total investment was less than $850 USD but even then all I had was a moderately expensive paperweight. The X1000 hardware performs on the level of PC system from 10 years ago, there's barely any 3D GPU support and no OS4 productivity software. Sad that nothing has really changed in the 7+ years that I made my PegII/OS4 purchase except for the price of the hardware and its availability. I realize that Amigas are your hobby but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of the merits of OS4 and the X1000, especially if they don't have as much disposable income as you.
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 07:24:36 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;784087
Sorry, but I have to agree with LionHeart. There's nothing compelling enough about an outdated operating system such as OS4 that would make me pay $3K USD for hardware to run it on. A few years back (2008) I was able to purchase one of the last PegII systems produced and I bought a copy of OS4 and MorphOS to go with it. My total investment was less than $850 USD but even then all I had was a moderately expensive paperweight. The X1000 hardware performs on the level of PC system from 10 years ago, there's barely any 3D GPU support and no OS4 productivity software. Sad that nothing has really changed in the 7+ years that I made my PegII/OS4 purchase except for the price of the hardware and its availability. I realize that Amigas are your hobby but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of the merits of OS4 and the X1000, especially if they don't have as much disposable income as you.
You might argue that there's nothing YOU would pay for. However I disagree because there is something I would pay for. However, it is a purely personal thing. You'll never convince me to buy an iPhone at any price as I have no interest in one.
This isn't about cost or we would all be driving Kia cars. Meanwhile, there are options for everybody's price range, starting at UAE+OS4 and going up to X1000+OS4.
The X1000 (taking inflation into consideration) is still less than I paid in the 80s for my original A2000 setup.
On the plus side, things do seem to be moving along. Open Office is a desperately needed piece of software that will make a huge difference to the platform.
Post by: Lionheart on February 14, 2015, 07:27:08 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784083
That's your opinion. Many would disagree. ;)
I think it is worth the price tag and so I bought one.
The reason I didn't buy a cheap PC to run Linux is because I don't want to run Linux, I want to run OS4 so that is the selling point that counts.
Your argument is like telling someone who paid $30,000 for a Harley Davidson that he should have bout at $15,000 Kia because the Car has 4 wheels and airbags. You're missing the point that the guy wanted a motorbike. :D
No, my argument is more like telling someone who bought a 10 year old Harley Davidson for $30,000 that they could get a brand new one for around $8,399.
Take out the Amiga name from the system entirely and I doubt you would have spent $3000 on a system that is more than 3 times the cost of a new PC and that is running on 10 year old hardware. That kind of business model gives die-hards fans something to drool on but doesn't increase your user base. The name only works as long as there are people around who still remember it.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 07:35:29 PM
Right on the money! I drove a rental KIA, I prefer my Subaru WRX 1000 times better.
Iv'e driven a windows machine, so what. I prefer Amiga!
Chris
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 07:37:21 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784090
No, my argument is more like telling someone who bought a 10 year old Harley Davidson for $30,000 that they could get a brand new one for around $8,399.
Take out the Amiga name from the system entirely and I doubt you would have spent $3000 on a system that is more than 3 times the cost of a new PC and that is running on 10 year old hardware. That kind of business model gives die-hards fans something to drool on but doesn't increase your user base. The name only works as long as there are people around who still remember it.
I agree that cheaper options would be nice. I wouldn't have minded paying half of what I did. However, it isn't my business model and I don't make the product. So for now I pay what I have to in order to get the product I want and hope that by keeping it ticking over now it will live to become cheaper down the road.
I bought a C-One motherboard which was an expensive choice at the time, but I did it to keep development of FPGA projects going. While the C-One now gathers dust, it did evolve into the Chameleon64 which was a cheaper and more powerful option. So to that extent I view my investment in the C-One as worthwhile. I hope the X1000 proves to be a similar case.
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 07:39:26 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784091
@Darrin,
Right on the money! I drove a rental KIA, I prefer my Subaru WRX 1000 times better.
Iv'e driven a windows machine, so what. I prefer Amiga!
Chris
I'm driving around West Texas in a rental Hyundai right now. On the 18th my new 2015 Mustang gets delivered from the Ford factory. I know which one I'm going to enjoy more (not that this Hyundai SUV isn't bad for a work vehicle). ;)
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
Nice pick! Would give me a run for the money, unless the roads are wet. :)
Chris
Post by: apsturk on February 14, 2015, 07:44:45 PM
"you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of the merits of OS4 and the X1000". Its 2015 and at Amigakit the price is $200 less that when I placed my order before Christmas. It's now $2709.37, $800 less that a Amiga A4000 over 20 years ago. My first Amiga was in 2013, I never owned one before and now I own 13 of them + my new A-Eon AmigaOne X1000. I will also buy a AmigaOne X5000 as well. I love the OS and A-EON & Amigakit and all the others that work so hard. THANKS
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784096
I'm driving around West Texas in a rental Hyundai right now. On the 18th my new 2015 Mustang gets delivered from the Ford factory. I know which one I'm going to enjoy more (not that this Hyundai SUV isn't bad for a work vehicle). ;)
Nice choice! But I wouldn't give up my Nissan 350Z for anything!
Post by: Faerytale on February 14, 2015, 07:46:04 PM
Post by: Darrin on February 14, 2015, 07:49:29 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784101
Nice choice! But I wouldn't give up my Nissan 350Z for anything!
That's a nice looking car. Does it come in a soft-top? I like my convertibles. I want to feel the wind rushing through my hair while I still have hair! :D
Edit: I see it does! Very nice. Nowhere to put the kids though.
Post by: modrobert on February 14, 2015, 07:49:57 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784079
It was an impressive hardware design more than 10 years ago, but certainly not today and especially not with a $3,000 price tag. Unlike the original Amiga, the X1000 has neither a hardware or price advantage. Its only real selling point is that it is able to run Amiga OS4, which is only an advantage when selling to die-hard Amiga fans as even Linux can do more than it. And why buy an X1000 to use Linux when you can by a more powerful PC for less than 1/3 the price of an X1000?
Linux can always do more on any hardware, that is a rule with few exceptions these days, but it doesn't prevent me from enjoying other operating systems as well.
My subjective comment regarding X1000's impressive hardware design was specifically within the PowerPC architecture. The idea of bringing the XMOS chipset into the mix (Xena), that Xorro port with all those GPIO pins just waiting for new hardware project ideas which runs independently from the CPU (I'm drooling just thinking about it). I never claimed that X1000 outperforms current PC hardware. Also, having used Linux on PowerPC in the past I can tell you that there is special kind of feeling you get compared to any kind of x86/x64 based architecture, it's just smooth and without lag even when the system is under load. I haven't tried AmigaOS 4.x on X1000 specifically, but considering it's less bloated than Linux I assume it is really fast.
Thinking of performance, even my A1200 boots WB 3.1 faster than any modern OS on the latest PC tech, it even boots faster than my phone, so in that aspect it outperforms everything else. ;)
Quote from: Darrin;784083
Your argument is like telling someone who paid $30,000 for a Harley Davidson that he should have bout at $15,000 Kia because the Car has 4 wheels and airbags. You're missing the point that the guy wanted a motorbike. :D
I agree.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 07:52:10 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784103
That's a nice looking car. Does it come in a soft-top? I like my convertibles. I want to feel the wind rushing through my hair while I still have hair! :D
Edit: I see it does! Very nice. Nowhere to put the kids though.
Sure does! The new Z model is now the 370Z but me no likey the look.
Posi-track BABY! That's what I'm talkin bout! :lol:
Right, it's a 2 seater - I've owned a 2 seater of some sort since 1984!
Oh, and about 7 Z's!
Sorry.... OT.... Back to Hyperion.....
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: Darrin;784089
. Meanwhile, there are options for everybody's price range, starting at UAE+OS4 and going up to X1000+OS4.
?????
Are you saying UAE runs OS4?
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 08:02:35 PM
Quote from: apsturk;784100
My first Amiga was in 2013, I never owned one before and now I own 13 of them + my new A-Eon AmigaOne X1000. I will also buy a AmigaOne X5000 as well. I love the OS and A-EON & Amigakit and all the others that work so hard. THANKS
You are a wonderful person and a very kewl dude! :buddies:
p.s. This site has a severe lack of appropriate smileys.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 08:02:36 PM
Quote from: chaoslord;784107
?????
Are you saying uae runs os4?
sure does! :)
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 08:03:03 PM
Thanks for the order of the AmigaONE X1000 - it was very much appreciated. I hope you are having fun with it. We will have some nice software announcements in May for your X1000 :)
The reason the price has gone down is that the US Dollar has gone down recently against the GBP so this has made the price cheaper.
@Darrin
Off topic, have fun with the new Mustang
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784110
sure does! :)
Why does Multiquote never ever ever ever work for me?
I guess we are talking about the 680x0 version of OS4 that Hyperion ceased development of at v4.0? Is that correct?
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 08:07:52 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;784112
Why does Multiquote never ever ever ever work for me?
I guess we are talking about the 680x0 version of OS4 that Hyperion ceased development of at v4.0? Is that correct?
Nope.... use OS4.1FE Classic... :)
EAB is sooooo chock full of info on how to emulate PPC on WinUAE and running OS4.1FE it's not funny! :lol:
Post by: pVC on February 14, 2015, 08:12:44 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;784112
I guess we are talking about the 680x0 version of OS4 that Hyperion ceased development of at v4.0? Is that correct?
There never was 68k version of OS4. It's been PPC always, except some 68k components...
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: ChuckT;784073
a basic Amiga without all of those co-processors...
They were basically gouging their Amiga customers. They upgraded the computers from an Agnus chip to Fat Agnes, updated the operating system and charged more for all those updates and it alienated customers because it put customers on a faster pace to buy...
Think about this: You just bought an Amiga, it was an expense and six months later, Commodore upgrades it. You're catering to a select few and alienating everyone else.
Man, what is this crazy-talk? The problem with the Amiga was that Commodore didn't upgrade it enough! Upper management was too busy sucking the coffers dry on private jets, and not spending enough on R&D or engineering. The Amiga was revolutionary for it's time *because of the custom chips*. To remove those you'd take away everything that made it unique, and make something wholly incompatible, since the system relied on those chips, in any case. And everything after that was a stop-gap, they had no more revolutions. Even AGA came out three years too late, by 1992 it's capabilities were already surpassed by every games machine and computer on the market.
Would you prefer they'd never upgraded? Never released any new products? Just sat stagnant with the original designs from 1985? They'd have never made into the '90s, let alone still be interesting to hobbyists today.
Anyhow, TL;DR, completely irrelevant to the discussion about Hyperion. Bye!
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 08:18:26 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784110
sure does! :)
Quote from: gizmo350;784113
Nope.... use OS4.1FE Classic... :)
EAB is sooooo chock full of info on how to emulate PPC on WinUAE and running OS4.1FE it's not funny! :lol:
That is just totally crazy! :crazy:
I just fell out of a timewarp.
The last time I read EAB the coders were all like Commander Adama 'No PPC Emulation while I am in command of this ship!'. They were all like 'ppc is useless. We will never have that.' But now you are saying they allow PPC emu? And is it any good? How fast is it? How compatible?
Holy crap you have exploded my brain!!!!
p.s. once again there is no appropriate smiley for how I am feeling at this moment.
Post by: ChaosLord on February 14, 2015, 08:22:19 PM
Quote from: pVC;784114
There never was 68k version of OS4. It's been PPC always, except some 68k components...
Ah yes you are right! I am sorry! I got mixed up. I was thinking of the v4.0 of OS4 that runs on Classic hardware. Like an A1200 with a PPC card. I call that OS4 Classic. (but it never had anything to do with 680x0).
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 08:27:02 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;784118
That is just totally crazy! :crazy:
I just fell out of a timewarp.
The last time I read EAB the coders were all like Commander Adama 'No PPC Emulation while I am in command of this ship!'. They were all like 'ppc is useless. We will never have that.' But now you are saying they allow PPC emu? And is it any good? How fast is it? How compatible?
Holy crap you have exploded my brain!!!!
p.s. once again there is no appropriate smiley for how I am feeling at this moment.
Most peeps (that like it) say to use a hefty Intel i7...
I have an 8GB i5 that I want to try it on.... just gotta get it on order! I was just gonna post AmigaKit's link to the product but they are now out of stock! I HATE ME sometimes!
@AmigaKit... please don't say that you won't get anymore!
HAHAHAHA! I love it when MiggyPeeps discover something new!
P.S. Glad you're feeling better ChaosLord!
Post by: Yasu on February 14, 2015, 08:48:27 PM
Can someone shed some light into this topic?
Post by: Kremlar on February 14, 2015, 08:52:38 PM
Quote
Remember that every X1000 is different, assembled bespoke to the customer's order with care. This is not a low cost budget PC that is quickly thrown together.
What's different? Different video card, amount of RAM, hard drive or SSD? How does that add to the assembly time of a system? Each X1000 has the same motherboard, processor and chassis (white/black), so if anything I would think that would make them QUICKER to assemble.
When building a random cheap PC there are always variables that can't be accounted for unless you are using the same motherboard and chassis over and over again.
How long does it take to mount the motherboard in the chassis? Mount a hard drive? Plug in some RAM and a video card?
Now, the software portion of the process might take some time, and apparently the shipping process, but I imagine you guys have done a lot of AmigaOS 4 systems. Since the variables are so few I would imagine you guys would have the process down pat by now.
Unless the failure rate of motherboards, CPUs or the other components is high it really shouldn't take that long to assemble and install the OS and drivers.
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784122
Most peeps (that like it) say to use a hefty Intel i7...
I have an 8GB i5 that I want to try it on.... just gotta get it on order! I was just gonna post AmigaKit's link to the product but they are now out of stock! I HATE ME sometimes!
@AmigaKit... please don't say that you won't get anymore!
Dang! I just put that in my shopping cart on their site last night, too, and now I see it's gone. :(
You know, there's a funny correlation to goth clubs here in the Washington, DC, area, in all this. Everybody always attends the first night of a new club, and the last night. And then they say "Man, this club is so great, why is it closing?" Well maybe if people had attended any of the other nights, it would've made enough money to stay open.
Amiga is like that. Maybe if we'd ordered our copies of 4.1 FE Classic a month ago, Hyperion would've had enough money to stay afloat. *sigh*
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 08:55:15 PM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 08:59:14 PM
Quote from: amigakit;784130
Please pre order now from us and we will get more next week. Thanks.
Could you post a link for Classic? It's not coming up on the search anymore. Just the other versions:
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 09:06:54 PM
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1222
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 09:23:32 PM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 09:28:14 PM
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 09:32:29 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784142
+1! Don't know when I'll have time to play with it, but it'll be a good conversation piece, right? LOL :lol:
@OM....
(http://erinina.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/cat-catwithpawraisedhighfive.jpg#cat%20high%20five%20426x498)
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 09:33:16 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784147
@OM....
(http://boardgamegeek.com/camo/c867d345d9310b74a2e186c0bed777303615f7ab/687474703a2f2f73636f74747364616c656c7578757279686f6d6570726f2e636f6d2f66696c65732f323031342f30362f48696768466976654361742e6a7067)
Awwww :D
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 09:46:26 PM
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 09:55:09 PM
Quote from: amigakit;784154
Thanks guys !
NO! Thank YOU AmigaKit! It's very rare these days that a vendor such as yourself takes the time to help their customers on an active website (even though it's yours) :lol:
Post by: Rob on February 14, 2015, 10:07:07 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784126
Question: _IF_ Hyperion stays bankrupt, what will happen to AOS 4? AFAIK there are some clauses with Amiga Inc. that makes the whole thing complicated.
Can someone shed some light into this topic?
If you wish to speculate you might want to familiarise yourself with the settlement agreement.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BxlY9g_OfLqDZTQyNGFkYzEtZDI5Zi00YzcxLThhODYtODcyZTg0M2I4MzQ1&hl=en
Two things I gleaned from it are;
1. Transfer of the licenses requires approval of the Amiga Inc.
2. The Agreement also affords the same rights it does to Hyperion to any parent or successor of Hyperion or any transferee. This suggests that outright purchase of Hyperion may not require any formal approval from Amiga Inc in order to exercise the rights granted to Hyperion in the agreement.
I don't claim to be any authority on this and others may interpret it differently.
Personally I don't think it's really worth worrying about for now. My X1000 still functions, A-EON are still working on the software they have promised and OS development is still ongoing.
Aside from a possible shortage of retail copies of OS4.1FE nothing has changed on the ground for now.
If Hyperion's appeal does fail in may be of concern to us but until such a time the status quo is maintained.
Post by: amigakit on February 14, 2015, 10:15:46 PM
:)
@rob
We have some nice software coming through soon. We are talking to key developers and obtaining agreements with them.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 10:24:47 PM
Z's are very nice but getting too old for a stick. Next dream is a Nissan GTR, yum.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784160
@gizmo350,
Z's are very nice but getting too old for a stick. Next dream is a Nissan GTR, yum.
Before I bought a brand new one in 2003, I drove both a stick and an auto... that six speed stick was ridiculously slow to get thru the gears... VERY quick to get up to speed though. The stick just wasn't gonna cut it (my 280ZX Turbo 5 speed was the bomb though!). Then I drove the 5 speed auto with triptronic - whilst turning off the traction control. HOLY CRAP! Manually shifting the triptronic makes the car a rocket! It is just habit now that everytime I get in the car I trun off the traction control. I bought the auto triptronic Touring model immediately! :)
Nissan GTR - oh yea baby! I have a Hot Wheels of one! :roflmao:
That's why my screen name is gizmo350.... (except I forgot to capitalize Z when I signed up) - 350Z! I'm just plain giZmo over at zcar.com
Oh, and I still have my '73 right hand drive Fairlady Z that I brought back from Japan in 1986. It now has a 2.8 liter fuel injected motor in it from an '82 280Z donor - also an auto!
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 10:50:24 PM
Post by: amigadave on February 14, 2015, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: ChaosLord;784118
That is just totally crazy! :crazy:
I just fell out of a timewarp.
The last time I read EAB the coders were all like Commander Adama 'No PPC Emulation while I am in command of this ship!'. They were all like 'ppc is useless. We will never have that.' But now you are saying they allow PPC emu? And is it any good? How fast is it? How compatible?
Holy crap you have exploded my brain!!!!
p.s. once again there is no appropriate smiley for how I am feeling at this moment.
I guess you have been busy under some rock (probably work, or personal life related) for the past year or so, while all the talk about adding PPC emulation to WinUAE has been going on.
Welcome back from your timewarp!
I have not tried OS4.1FE on WinUAE, or taken a good look at how fast it can run, since I have an X1000 to run OS4.x, but I would be interested in reading some test results that show real world performance results on varying PC hardware, to see just how useful, or fun AmigaOS4.1FE can be under emulation.
I have been highly critical of Hyperion due to many of their decisions over the last 10+ years, but I agree that lowering the price for AmigaOS4.1FE and making it available for people to run via WinUAE emulation is one of the smartest things they have done in many years, if not the smartest thing they have ever done. Now just about anyone can try AmigaOS4.1 and decide for themselves if it is something they want to continue to use and/or invest further by obtaining dedicated PPC hardware to run it on. It is not quite as good an option (IMHO) as the free 30 minute demo version of MorphOS, to introduce interested users to the platform, but it is 1,000 times better situation than we had before WinUAE added PPC support and users had to buy new or used PPC hardware costing between ~$500 to $3,000+ to run AmigaOS4.x.
My 2 cents.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 10:55:30 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784166
Lol, I have a 1970 Datsun P/U in good shape I'm thinking of a V6 to replace the 1600 to 1800 upgrade I've had in it for ever. Add limited slip, auto trans and done.
Man, I wish I could get an LSD for my Fairlady! Can't find one... or pay a fortune if I could! I think an Amiga PPC card @270MHz would cost more though! :hammer: Last summer I just installed brand new 7/8" bars, front and rear from Stillen - need to give 'em a workout! :laugh1:
1970? Is the body in good shape? That would fly with a 1.8! My Fairlady weighs less than 2000 pounds - what's yours weigh?
Sorry OT again peeps!
Post by: amigadave on February 14, 2015, 11:06:27 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784166
Lol, I have a 1970 Datsun P/U in good shape I'm thinking of a V6 to replace the 1600 to 1800 upgrade I've had in it for ever. Add limited slip, auto trans and done.
Those old Dastun pickups and 510's were awesome and the P/U's ran forever. I can't believe that they let Toyota take over their market share in the small P/U segment without a fight. Does Nissan even import a pickup to the USA anymore? I can't remember seeing a Nissan pickup for a very long time.
The Toyota small pickups were better when they only offered 4 cylinder engines, IMO, as they were bullet proof and would run for 200,000 to 300,000 miles quite often. The V6 engines are not as trouble free, but then none of the modern engines are as reliable it seems these days, and working on any of them has become a nightmare (currently have my 4.0L V6 Dodge Nitro taken apart trying to track down an over-heating problem and cursing every minute I work on it. Why would any auto engineer think it is okay to put the thermostat and coolant temperature sensor at the very rear of an engine against the firewall, so that you are forced to remove the entire intake manifold just to see it, let alone trying to get wrenches or sockets on the fasteners to replace those items).
Have fun with your 1970 Datsun pickup, at least it should be easy to work on. Now back to the original topic.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 11:08:50 PM
Barely weighs at 2000 Pounds but has a 1 ton payload, Fitting more than half ton in the small bed is hard though. 1.8L has more torque with the same HP than 1.6L so not really faster but can pull better. BTW, all of it is in good shape bodywise except the cabin floor. Easily replaced.
Chris
PS: sorry folks, but I had to go OT. Even though it was getting stale.
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 14, 2015, 11:23:12 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784167
I have been highly critical of Hyperion due to many of their decisions over the last 10+ years, but I agree that lowering the price for AmigaOS4.1FE and making it available for people to run via WinUAE emulation is one of the smartest things they have done
Maybe I missed the posts on this, but where did Hyperion actually provide any help on this at all? From what I've seen they've been actively opposed to it (like that poor guy with his D-UAE thing recently). I thought it was all the author (authors?) of WinUAE who did all the work.
Not trying to start a flame-war, just curious! ;)
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 11:27:58 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784170
@gizmo350,
Barely weighs at 2000 Pounds but has a 1 ton payload, Fitting more than half ton in the small bed is hard though. 1.8L has more torque with the same HP than 1.6L so not really faster but can pull better. BTW, all of it is in good shape bodywise except the cabin floor. Easily replaced.
Chris
PS: sorry folks, but I had to go OT. Even though it was getting stale.
@QuikSanz
Sorry last OT promise....
Here's a real quick vid of the Fairlady doin a nut in a really rough abandoned parking lot so going not too fast cause I didn't wanna tear up these brand new tires (still did though)....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0A-DeR742k
Racing the 350Z - doesn't look like I'm going very fast but doin about 120 in that 3rd turn!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpCEei9Xh-c
Post by: amigadave on February 14, 2015, 11:28:32 PM
Quote from: Terminills;784027
No it isn't possible. Hyperion own a license to modify not ownership.
It's too early for an April Fool's joke, so I guess I need to look into the possibility that this story may be true.
I would need to talk to Number 6 to get a clear (as clear as possible) explanation of the results of the agreement finally decided upon between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion and the courts/judge, when they resolved all of their lawsuits against each other.
I was under the impression that Hyperion owns AmigaOS4.x outright, not just a license to continue development of it, but then I never did look at the exact wording of the settlement, as it was not that important to me when it originally happened. The rights to AmigaOS3.x and previous versions are much less clear to me (not that AmigaOS4.x is very clear to me), but I won't be surprised if Hyperion is able to sell the rights to AmigaOS4.x and that it can continue to be developed without any interference from Amiga Inc.
I will be disappointed if someone does not buy and continue to develop AmigaOS4.x. My hopes are that if this story is true, that Hyperion is successful in selling the rights to continue to develop AmigaOS4.x to someone who will do a better job at completing AmigaOS4.2 quicker, or that they will Open Source AmigaOS4.x (highly unlikely).
Edit: This is most likely just a misunderstanding and an over reaction by the community (as usual).
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 11:31:08 PM
They have the Titan but they have brought back the Frontier, new mini.
Chris
Post by: QuikSanz on February 14, 2015, 11:34:19 PM
Can't drift at all in the WRX except in snow, all wheel traction control won't let it happen.
Post by: Terminills on February 14, 2015, 11:49:13 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784174
It's too early for an April Fool's joke, so I guess I need to look into the possibility that this story may be true.
I would need to talk to Number 6 to get a clear (as clear as possible) explanation of the results of the agreement finally decided upon between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion and the courts/judge, when they resolved all of their lawsuits against each other.
I was under the impression that Hyperion owns AmigaOS4.x outright, not just a license to continue development of it, but then I never did look at the exact wording of the settlement, as it was not that important to me when it originally happened. The rights to AmigaOS3.x and previous versions are much less clear to me (not that AmigaOS4.x is very clear to me), but I won't be surprised if Hyperion is able to sell the rights to AmigaOS4.x and that it can continue to be developed without any interference from Amiga Inc.
I will be disappointed if someone does not buy and continue to develop AmigaOS4.x. My hopes are that if this story is true, that Hyperion is successful in selling the rights to continue to develop AmigaOS4.x to someone who will do a better job at completing AmigaOS4.2 quicker, or that they will Open Source AmigaOS4.x (highly unlikely).
Edit: This is most likely just a misunderstanding and an over reaction by the community (as usual).
The issue with open sourcing is this. Hyperion own AmigaOS4 however AmigaOS4 is based on AmigaOS 3 sources. Hyperion's license was to use modify AmigaOS 3 to create new versions of AmigaOS. Therefore it can never be open sourced as it's base doesn't belong to Hyperion.
Post by: amigadave on February 14, 2015, 11:49:47 PM
I like those old "Z" cars much better than the looks of the new ones. 1960's, & 70's were great times for modifying & driving (racing on back streets) cars.
Post by: Rob on February 14, 2015, 11:51:03 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784168
Man, I wish I could get an LSD for my Fairlady! Can't find one... or pay a fortune if I could! I think an Amiga PPC card @270MHz would cost more though! :hammer: Last summer I just installed brand new 5/8" bars, front and rear from Stillen - need to give 'em a workout! :laugh1:
1970? Is the body in good shape? That would fly with a 1.8! My Fairlady weighs less than 2000 pounds - what's yours weigh?
Sorry OT again peeps!
Are either of these the diff you need?
http://shop.quaife.co.uk/differentials?manufacturer=53&model=438
Had a Quaife ATB diff in my Ford Escort since I got the gearbox rebuilt back in 2012.
Post by: amigadave on February 14, 2015, 11:54:51 PM
Quote from: Terminills;784177
The issue with open sourcing is this. Hyperion own AmigaOS4 however AmigaOS4 is based on AmigaOS 3 sources. Hyperion's license was to use modify AmigaOS 3 to create new versions of AmigaOS. Therefore it can never be open sourced as it's base doesn't belong to Hyperion.
Is there any point at which AmigaOS4.x could separate itself from the AmigaOS3.x 68k sources and be considered it's own IP, or will it forever be tied to the previous source code it is based on?
Not being a programmer, I don't know all the rules regarding IP rights and if/how they can be transferred, but I agree that the messed up history of the Amiga IP makes it difficult, if not impossible to figure out.
In any case, I doubt that Hyperion is really bankrupt (or that the bankruptcy will not be reversed. When things like development of AmigaOS4.x don't make any profits, the details that keep them going can be overlooked by the people in charge, because the people responsible are busy with other things that pay the bills and make them real money, like when Amiga Inc. forgot to renew their website and let it expire for a time. So maybe Ben Hermans slipped up on something, and this bankruptcy judgement happened accidentally?) I don't think that development will cease for AmigaOS4.x, just look at how many obstacles have been overcome through the years to get us to where we are today (it can't stop until I get my free copy of AmigaOS4.2 for my X1000). :lol:
Post by: giZmo350 on February 14, 2015, 11:56:29 PM
HATE the traction control! :furious: LOL
@AmigaDave
Yea, I love my FairladyZ - that straight six is sooooooo easy to work on! Actually, the whole thing is easy to work on! :) When I swapped the engine with the auto tranny still attached, it literally took like an hour to drop it in and bolt it up with a cherry picker - by myself! I wanna go drive it right now but there's 3 feet of snow on the ground! :(
Post by: Terminills on February 14, 2015, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784180
Is there any point at which AmigaOS4.x could separate itself from the AmigaOS3.x 68k sources and be considered it's own IP, or will it forever be tied to the previous source code it is based on?
Not being a programmer, I don't know all the rules regarding IP rights and if/how they can be transferred, but I agree that the messed up history of the Amiga IP makes it difficult, if not impossible to figure out.
In any case, I doubt that Hyperion is really bankrupt (or that the bankruptcy will not be reversed) and that development will cease for AmigaOS4.x (it can't until I get my free copy of AmigaOS4.2 for my X1000). :lol:
The only way to do it is to hire a new development team that has never seen the source and reverse engineer it. At this point you would be better off starting off with Aros or MorphOS.
As for bankruptcy. As of right now they are bankrupt and waiting to see if their appeal is approved. What we know is they have started opposing the judgement. That however doesn't guarantee that the judgement will be vacated.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 15, 2015, 12:01:19 AM
Quote from: Rob;784179
Are either of these the diff you need?
http://shop.quaife.co.uk/differentials?manufacturer=53&model=438
Had a Quaife ATB diff in my Ford Escort since I got the gearbox rebuilt back in 2012.
@Rob
Not sure if 110mm or the 115mm but yea, the R180 would be it! I guess it would depend on the diameter of the splined input shaft... Hmmm, I'll have to figure that out. I'm pretty sure I have a set of old drive shafts to measure from. Geee, didn't know anyone was manufacturing new diffs! Pricey! Thanks for the link!
Lifetime warranty - might be putting that to the test!
Post by: QuikSanz on February 15, 2015, 12:41:47 AM
Over this way there is a place called " Driveline Specialties " Will fit anything to anything!
Post by: magnetic on February 15, 2015, 12:47:31 AM
Quote from: ChaosLord;783957
Does this mean MorphOS won the war?
Did you know that "morphos" was supposed to be "Amiga os" and certain ppl on the so called "red" side screwed it all up? thats why the war exsited until now. (one of the many reasons)
Post by: magnetic on February 15, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Post by: giZmo350 on February 15, 2015, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784187
@gizmo350,
Over this way there is a place called " Driveline Specialties " Will fit anything to anything!
If I had the bucks I would just go nuts and put in an R200 LSD w/CV shafts and overcoils with disk brakes and new mounts and hubs in the rear! I just need to find a stock R200 LSD from and '83 Z. I could kick myself for not getting one on the internet (from anywhere) 20 years ago. Honestly I haven't looked for one in so long and with ebay around for so long now that I'll bet there just aren't any more.
This looks cheap though... :lol: Would still need to get an R200.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Datsun-240Z-280Z-300Z-350Z-370Z-R200-Limited-Slip-Differential-Conversion-Kit-/251634230874
One thing I like about the Z independent rear suspension is the two U-joints in each of the half-shafts - they can just be swapped out for a different input.
Chris is this the place?
http://www.drivelineservice.net/ or do you have a link? Not finding with Google... You're in California? Any good junkyards out there that haven't been molested severely?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 15, 2015, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784189
why would you guys hijack one of the most important threads in a while with talk about your modded ricers? lolol
I was about to chime in and tell these guys to get real cars, but I like 'em, so let it slide. :laughing:
Post by: giZmo350 on February 15, 2015, 01:05:05 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784189
why would you guys hijack one of the most important threads in a while with talk about your modded ricers? lolol
Sorry.... for the hijack...
RICER? No rice here! Definition of ricer at urban dictionary "Any person who adds tasteless modifications to a perfectly normal automobile. "
Post by: eliyahu on February 15, 2015, 01:12:53 AM
magnetic brings up a good point. let's try and stay on topic. ancient history about camp wars are off-topic. and, er, so are discussions on late-model japanese sports cars. ;)
if you guys want, you're welcome to start other threads, but let's keep this thread focused on hyperion and its current predicament, please. thanks.
-- eliyahu
Post by: QuikSanz on February 15, 2015, 01:26:46 AM
Looks like the original place I used has gone away. Should be something in your area.
Only the truck has been modified. Header, Weber carb and electronic pointless ignition.
won't mess with the Subi.
Post by: amigadave on February 15, 2015, 01:26:51 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784189
why would you guys hijack one of the most important threads in a while with talk about your modded ricers? lolol
This thread will surely turn out to be nothing but speculation and over reaction to an oversight, plus many assumptions.
Never the less, I have moved my portion of any further car talk to PM prior to your above request.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 15, 2015, 01:28:06 AM
Yup!
Post by: Yasu on February 15, 2015, 01:33:25 AM
Quote from: amigadave;784196
This thread will surely turn out to be nothing but speculation and over reaction to an oversight, plus many assumptions.
Never the less, I have moved my portion of any further car talk to PM prior to your above request.
In what universe is being declared bankrupt by a court an oversight? In Hermans?
Post by: Kremlar on February 15, 2015, 01:50:33 AM
Quote
In what universe is being declared bankrupt by a court an oversight? In Hermans?
Yep. If they somehow pull out of this it won't be long, unless Ben Hermans has a lot more money he wants to burn through.
I mean, how much $ are they possibly bringing in?
Post by: amigadave on February 15, 2015, 02:21:40 AM
Quote from: Yasu;784198
In what universe is being declared bankrupt by a court an oversight? In Hermans?
Do you know what events led up to the judgement? Do you know that Hyperion was aware of the proceedings, so they could defend their position? In many places, when one party or the other does not show up in court, a judgement against them is automatic.
I don't have the facts, but have read some unconfirmed reports that court notices may have been delayed from reaching the people who could have stopped this from happening. I reluctantly share this info, as I don't like to spread unconfirmed information (rumors), until I know the facts. I encourage everyone to calm down until we know more FACTS!
Post by: kolla on February 15, 2015, 03:20:56 AM
Post by: modrobert on February 15, 2015, 03:23:48 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784171
Maybe I missed the posts on this, but where did Hyperion actually provide any help on this at all? From what I've seen they've been actively opposed to it (like that poor guy with his D-UAE thing recently). I thought it was all the author (authors?) of WinUAE who did all the work.
Not trying to start a flame-war, just curious! ;)
Yes, this is possible due to the PPC support added by Toni Wilen.
Quote
WinUAE 3.0.0 (17.12.2014)
==========================
New emulated hardware:
- PPC CPU emulation. CyberStorm PPC and Blizzard PPC boards emulated
using QEMU PPC core, on-board SCSI supported.
- Other accelerator boards emulated (Blizzards, CyberStorms, Warp
Engine, TekMagic, A2630), including on-board SCSI if available.
- More SCSI expansion boards emulated (Fastlane, Oktagon, Blizzard Kit IV)
- CD32 Full Motion Video cartridge emulation.
- CDTV-CR emulation.
- A590 XT hard drive emulation.
Post by: Matt_H on February 15, 2015, 03:52:39 AM
It bears repeating: bankruptcy does not necessarily equal out of business. For instance, Kodak recently declared bankruptcy, restructured, and came out of it. RadioShack just declared bankruptcy and is attempting to restructure (whether they'll be successful remains to be seen) but for the moment their day-to-day operations are proceeding normally. Commodore filed under s different part of the US bankruptcy code and went straight to liquidation.
There's so much speculation flying around, but I'm leaning towards this being an administrative mix up. For Kodak, RadioShack, and Commodore, the writing was on the wall for months or years before the bankruptcy. We haven't seen that here with Hyperion - and remember they just launched a new product which would have required cash on hand to manufacture. We know that OS4 revenues are minuscule and any "normal" business would have gone bust long ago. The fact that they've held on this long suggests to me that they are a very non-traditionally structured business with very low overhead. (We know that virtually all OS4 development is by volunteers.) An administrative error in those circumstances seems very possible.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 15, 2015, 04:21:47 AM
;)
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 15, 2015, 04:36:32 AM
Quote from: Matt_H;784206
RadioShack just declared bankruptcy and is attempting to restructure (whether they'll be successful remains to be seen)
Radio Shack is closing thousands of stores. The ones near me have already closed. The ones that are remaining open are being bought by Sprint, although they're going to brand them Sprint-Radio Shack. That's the most recent I've heard. Sucks, but they haven't sold anything of interest to me there in years. Just would drop in for the occasional cable if I needed it "right away" for a job. :(
Post by: Plaz on February 15, 2015, 04:37:19 AM
Quote from: klx300r;783954
guys you really think A-Eon & Amigakit didn't know this was coming for a while now?
One company hide their financials from another company? Nah, that never happens. ;)
Plaz
Post by: Hattig on February 15, 2015, 08:11:36 AM
Post by: Kronos on February 15, 2015, 08:34:12 AM
Quote from: Matt_H;784206
For Kodak, RadioShack, and Commodore, the writing was on the wall for months or years before the bankruptcy. We haven't seen that here with Hyperion - and remember they just launched a new product which would have required cash on hand to manufacture.
Actually the writings have been on the wall for quite some time, it's just that some refused to look.
Hey one might even argue that this outcome was predictable form day one and only the massive delay is thze suprise....
As for Hyperion having just launched a product...... perfect time to go after outstanding debts (either directly or via a court).
Post by: Manu on February 15, 2015, 11:27:19 AM
Quote from: Darrin;784083
That's your opinion. Many would disagree. ;)
The reason I didn't buy a cheap PC to run Linux is because I don't want to run Linux, I want to run OS4 so that is the selling point that counts.
And in this sick community you could have a computer locked in a black box running OS4 and they couldn't tell a difference from a X1000 running OS4, but the moment you tell them it's in fact a Pentium IV running the x86 version of OS4 (made that up of course) they'd run away screaming and never come back. That's what's so sick about this PPC worshiping community.
Post by: apa on February 15, 2015, 12:12:17 PM
(A few people in the thread (most not, thanks) seems almost happy if this were true - can't understand what you trolls are doing in an Amiga forum if you don't want the Amiga OS to continue be released.)
Post by: OlafS3 on February 15, 2015, 12:26:39 PM
Quote from: apa;784230
I hope that everythings ok with Hyperion, so that we can look forward to more releases.
(A few people in the thread (most not, thanks) seems almost happy if this were true - can't understand what you trolls are doing in an Amiga forum if you don't want the Amiga OS to continue be released.)
"Amiga" is not only "AmigaOS" today ...
Post by: Yasu on February 15, 2015, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784201
Do you know what events led up to the judgement? Do you know that Hyperion was aware of the proceedings, so they could defend their position? In many places, when one party or the other does not show up in court, a judgement against them is automatic.
I don't have the facts, but have read some unconfirmed reports that court notices may have been delayed from reaching the people who could have stopped this from happening. I reluctantly share this info, as I don't like to spread unconfirmed information (rumors), until I know the facts. I encourage everyone to calm down until we know more FACTS!
I'm just having a difficult time accepting the idea that Ben Hermans was one day going to work, whistling some peppy song because everything is going his way. He goes to the office, say hello to his coworkers and recieve the good news that AOS 4FE is selling well. And then he sees a letter at his desk, he opens it and see that the court of Belgium has for no reason at all decleared Hyperion bankrupt.
"There must be some mistake. Why haven't I heard of this matter before? We are paying our bills and our taxes and even making some money". He calls the court and the judge in question tells him:
"Oh, some guy sent us a letter the other day claiming he hasn't been paid and that you have no money to pay him. Because we are the court of Belgium, runned by third rate burocratic saps we of course believed him on the spot and without making any kind of investigation of the state of the company we declared it bankrupt. Because that's what we do. Are you now telling me he was lying? But ... he seemed so honest! I ... Oops, I did it again. File a complaint and maybe, just maybe, we will be nice enough to do our job and fix this. Unless we are out for lunch. Good bye."
Ben Hermans hang up the phone, he stands quiet for some very long seconds shaking, and then shouts "DAMN THIS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY AND IT'S LOUSY JURIDICAL SYSTEM!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!"
Sure, maybe they will rebound. It's perfectly possible. And I would welcome that for the sake of the community and all the people who wants to use and keep using their favourite OS. But let's face it, unless Belgium is like what I described above then this happened because the court did it's job and came to the conclusion after an investigation that yes, Hyperion is in their conclusion bankrupt.
[Edit] I also have a hard time believe that such a small company forgot to open or lost the hypothetical mail with the court hearing. My dad had a small company and he got some 30 mails a day. He opened all and read most of them. Especially if it seemed important.
Post by: Terminills on February 15, 2015, 12:44:16 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784232
I'm just having a difficult time accepting the idea that Ben Hermans was one day going to work, whistling some peppy song because everything is going his way. He goes to the office, say hello to his coworkers and recieve the good news that AOS 4FE is selling well. And then he sees a letter at his desk, he opens it and see that the court of Belgium has for no reason at all decleared Hyperion bankrupt.
"There must be some mistake. Why haven't I heard of this matter before? We are paying our bills and our taxes and even making some money". He calls the court and the judge in question tells him:
"Oh, some guy sent us a letter the other day claiming he hasn't been paid and that you have no money to pay him. Because we are the court of Belgium, runned by third rate burocratic saps we of course believed him on the spot and without making any kind of investigation of the state of the company we declared it bankrupt. Because that's what we do. Are you now telling me he was lying? But ... he seemed so honest! I ... Oops, I did it again. File a complaint and maybe, just maybe, we will be nice enough to do our job and fix this. Unless we are out for lunch. Good bye."
Ben Hermans hang up the phone, he stands quiet for some very long seconds shaking, and then shouts "DAMN THIS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY AND IT'S LOUSY JURIDICAL SYSTEM!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!"
Sure, maybe they will rebound. It's perfectly possible. And I would welcome that for the sake of the community and all the people who wants to use and keep using their favourite OS. But let's face it, unless Belgium is like what I described above then this happened because the court did it's job and came to the conclusion after an investigation that yes, Hyperion is in their conclusion bankrupt.
[Edit] I also have a hard time believe that such a small company forgot to open or lost the hypothetical mail with the court hearing. My dad had a small company and he got some 30 mails a day. He opened all and read most of them. Especially if it seemed important.
LMFAO best post ever!
Post by: itix on February 15, 2015, 12:50:29 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784201
Do you know what events led up to the judgement? Do you know that Hyperion was aware of the proceedings, so they could defend their position? In many places, when one party or the other does not show up in court, a judgement against them is automatic.
How can such pro lawyer like Benjamin Hermans miss coming to the court?
Quote
I don't have the facts, but have read some unconfirmed reports that court notices may have been delayed from reaching the people who could have stopped this from happening. I reluctantly share this info, as I don't like to spread unconfirmed information (rumors), until I know the facts. I encourage everyone to calm down until we know more FACTS!
it is only a rumor when Hyperion bankruptcy is the fact.
Post by: itix on February 15, 2015, 12:53:53 PM
Quote from: amigadave;784167
I have been highly critical of Hyperion due to many of their decisions over the last 10+ years, but I agree that lowering the price for AmigaOS4.1FE and making it available for people to run via WinUAE emulation is one of the smartest things they have done in many years, if not the smartest thing they have ever done.
According to Hyperion it is not legal to run OS4 on WinUAE. See EULA on your OS4 DVD.
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 15, 2015, 01:10:55 PM
Quote from: cpaek72;784030
there is no way I'm going to have the x1000 sent to me with this currently going on. Amigakit is pretty unbelievable. I know they probably need my money, but that's really crossing the ethical line and looking the other way. Am I overreacitng?
No you are certainly not overreacting. It would be outright illegal for them to refuse you a refund! You have up to 14 days *after delivery* to send it back (unused of course) and reclaim a full refund including shipment costs (you pay for the return shipment though). You don't even have to provide a reason, just state that you don't want it anymore and would like a refund. If they are honest they should have already told you everything about this. They also must have provided you with a printed form you can (if you like) use for this purpose.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm (http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm)
"Returning unwanted goods
14 days to withdraw when purchasing goods
In the EU, for contracts concluded as of 13 June 2014, you have the right to withdraw from your online purchase as well as from purchases made elsewhere than in shops (e.g. from a salesman on your doorstep; by phone or mail order) within 14 days.
This “cooling off” period expires 14 days after the day you received your goods. However, if this period expires on a non-working day, your deadline is extended till the next working day.
You can choose to withdraw from your order for any reason within this timeframe - even if you simply changed your mind.
To exercise your right of withdrawal, you must unequivocally inform the trader of your decision to withdraw from the purchase. You can do this, for example, by adding a written statement to the goods that you are returning by post, or by sending a fax or e-mail. It is not enough to just send the goods back. The trader must provide you with a model withdrawal form, which you can use to inform him/her of your withdrawal but you don’t have to use it.
The trader must give you a refund within 14 days from receipt of your withdrawal notification, but can delay refunding you if he/she has not received the goods back or evidence that you have sent them back. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase. However, the trader may charge you additional delivery costs if you specifically requested non-standard (express) delivery. You will have to pay the costs of returning the goods to the trader.
For bulky goods (such as large household equipment), the trader must give you at least an estimation of the cost of returning the goods. You must send the goods back within 14 days of informing the trader that you wanted to withdraw.
Check that the trader informed you that you would have to bear the cost of sending the goods back during the cooling-off period. If not, he/she must also bear that cost. Bulky goods bought from a door-to-door salesman and delivered to you immediately must, however, be collected by the trader at his own expense."
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 15, 2015, 01:12:39 PM
Quote from: amigakit;784062
@Kremlar
Before a customer purchases an AmigaONE X1000, in Checkout it states that the build will take up to 10 days, so customers know before they buy it won't be simply pulled off a shelf and packed immediately. Remember that every X1000 is different, assembled bespoke to the customer's order with care. This is not a low cost budget PC that is quickly thrown together.
Oh My God, did you just say that?!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
It's a *motherboard*, it has the same form factor, the same screw holes, it fits in standard PC chassis, it has the same connectors, power supply, etc as any PC. This or that GFX card, this or that HDD, this or that optical drive - how does that matter? Anyone with a screw driver and the slightest hunch will put together a PC (which this essentially is, although insanely overprised and severely underpowered) in about *an hour*! You may take up to 10 days to do that job, which is fine I suppose as long as your customers are happy with it, but please don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming that this divine precious gem of a motherboard would be so special it requires some magical gear, breath from angels, and hair from unicorns to be assembled and that it can only happen when the moon is in a certain phase and aligned with Jupiter. Christ...
:roflmao:
Post by: som99 on February 15, 2015, 01:56:05 PM
Lets see what happens, it's expensive to run that space station ^^
Post by: takemehomegrandma on February 15, 2015, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: AmigaOldskooler;783978
Hyperion says: "The news of our demise is greatly exaggerated":
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#751549 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#751549)
LOL!
Maybe that person (Ben Hermans? Not easy to know with Hyperions constant anonymous posting policy) didn't meant for it to happen, maybe he didn't want it to happen, or maybe he is simply living in denial. Because those formal public records surely tells a different story! The smoke-and-mirror post obviously had its intended effect though, since a lot of you are dancing and singing the "everything is fine and business as usual" song now because of it... ;)
In any case, Mr Bert Dehandschutter is probably a more relevant source of info at this point than Mr Hermans. :)
Quote from: Yasu;783990
I just got this reply from the curator:
"The company announced to start an opposition procedure according to the Belgian Bankruptcy Act. In that case the Court can take a decision to annul the first Court decision which means it is like no insolvency proceeding has even been pronounced."
This mean that it wasn't Hyperion themselves who voluntarily filed for bankruptcy, but someone else did it for them. Interesting! But bankrupt they are! :)
Here is Hyperion:
1) Unpaid developers (and perhaps other debts as well)
2) Hyperion hasn't had a viable business going for a long time, since their income is so low they don't even have no VAT liability anymore (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/250563.shtml) since over a year back. A hot dog vendor makes more money!
3) Meaning there can't be any paid employees at all, and nothing else that cost money. "Managing Director" this, "Director Legal" that, fulltime employed developers, etc, etc. Bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! and lies!
4) The Friedens faded out of the picture after OS4.1.2 release (court documents from Amiga Inc <-> Hyperion trials showed us that Hyperion owned them something in the line of two millions if memory serves me right), as did many (all?) others, replaced by "ssolie" who *never* was a real employee (but fancy made up titles), and a couple of other, lesser volunteer workers who came and went during the years that followed. Development stagnated, for two releases the very same "AmigaOS3.1 with UAE integrated" feature was the main selling point. The 4.1.6 version bump release had the *only* feature of including some kind of package manager so that the volunteer free-time coders could push smaller sporadic updates of individual components without the work of having to put together a proper, full release.
5) The former Hyperion founding partner Evert Carton (jorit2 @ AW.net), who probably has more insight than anyone else in Hyperion dealings (at least up to a certain point), seems *very* eager to clear his name (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/250565.shtml) from any responsibility and liability concerning Hyperion (almost afraid of repercussions of Hyperion dealings I'd say):
"I should not be a partner, I'm actually quite sure the legal paperwork for this has been filed and was also published (this is a requirement for it to be effective)
Bummer that the site where the publication is available has the same flaws (among others) as eg USPTO in that you cannot directly link to it)
But you can go here:
http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/tsv/tsvn.htm
That get's you a form, fill in
0466380552 in the first field (Ondernemingsnummer: say "Company Id") , and hit the button "Opzoeking" right above it
You'll see that it found 7 documents. Then hit the button "Lijst" to the right, it will get you a list of publications.
You want the first document in the list. Click the link "Beeld"
You will see a PDF that (translated) reads "Mister Evert Carton has, effective Feb 1 2011, effective immediately, resigned as director from Hyperion Entertainment"
It's this document that I could use, and have used, and being effective at it, to fend of any calls to my liability, no further questions asked, by official and non official organizations, it is in other words sufficient legal proof that I am no longer a partner and no longer liable. It's effective on the date of publication, the date of publication being indicated by the stamp Apr 4 2011."
Why does he, who has had full insight in Hyperion dealings, feel the need to "fend off any calls to his liability" from official and non official organizations, one might wonder? Why is he so eager to have sufficient legal proof that he is no longer a partner and no longer liable?
In any case, things are *not* well at Hyperion.
Post by: Matt_H on February 15, 2015, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: Kronos;784219
Actually the writings have been on the wall for quite some time, it's just that some refused to look.
Is it, though? Like I said, they have to be a tiny, unconventional shop or they would have been toast long ago. They're privately held and they've got to be independently financed as well.
Quote
Hey one might even argue that this outcome was predictable form day one and only the massive delay is thze suprise....
Fair point, but why now, all of a sudden?
Quote
As for Hyperion having just launched a product...... perfect time to go after outstanding debts (either directly or via a court).
Ah, so someone might be using the bankruptcy court as a debt collection agency. That doesn't necessarily mean they're broke, just that they're not paying someone/something. Whether that's deliberate or accidental is unclear for now.
@ thread
I notice a number of posts stating "the court declared it, it must be so!"
To which I ask: are you suggesting governmental agencies are always correct and never make mistakes that they must later reverse? Come on, I'm a pro-big-government elitist northern liberal and I know that's nonsense! :)
Remember, all we're doing is speculating. Let's save the definitive statements for later, shall we?
Post by: eliyahu on February 15, 2015, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;784242
3) Meaning there can't be any paid employees at all, and nothing else that cost money. "Managing Director" this, "Director Legal" that, fulltime employed developers, etc, etc. Bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! and lies!this is both insulting and incorrect.
Quote
4) The Friedens faded out of the picture after OS4.1.2 release (court documents from Amiga Inc <-> Hyperion trials showed us that Hyperion owned them something in the line of two millions if memory serves me right), as did many (all?) others, replaced by "ssolie" who *never* was a real employee (but fancy made up titles)...this is both insulting and incorrect.
Quote
Why does he, who has had full insight in Hyperion dealings, feel the need to "fend off any calls to his liability" from official and non official organizations, one might wonder? Why is he so eager to have sufficient legal proof that he is no longer a partner and no longer liable?and this is just plain trolling. the rest of your post is fine, though. :hammer:
-- eliyahu
Post by: eliyahu on February 15, 2015, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: Matt_H;784244
Remember, all we're doing is speculating. Let's save the definitive statements for later, shall we?absolutely. there are certain people here who want to see hyperion fail, so they do everything to make it appear they have done. there are certain people here who want to see hyperion succeed, so they do everything to make it appear this is just a minor blip.
either way -- the only people who actually know anything for certain are the belgian courts, the receiver, mr. hermans and mr. de groote, and whomever filed the claim in the first place. everybody else is just guessing based on scant evidence. i highly suggest we wait and see what happens, both with hyperion and AOS4 development. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: Matt_H on February 15, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784209
Radio Shack is closing thousands of stores. The ones near me have already closed. The ones that are remaining open are being bought by Sprint, although they're going to brand them Sprint-Radio Shack. That's the most recent I've heard. Sucks, but they haven't sold anything of interest to me there in years. Just would drop in for the occasional cable if I needed it "right away" for a job. :(
Well, my point was that the company as a whole is not going straight to liquidation. Not sure what has happened/will happen to the ones near me. But yes, very much agreed that they're great for acquiring "right away" parts. For an amateur like me who doesn't understand all the nuances of part numbers of online vendors (who often don't have detailed pictures either) being able to examine a part in person at RadioShack is very handy.
Post by: dammy on February 15, 2015, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: Matt_H;784248
Well, my point was that the company as a whole is not going straight to liquidation. Not sure what has happened/will happen to the ones near me. But yes, very much agreed that they're great for acquiring "right away" parts. For an amateur like me who doesn't understand all the nuances of part numbers of online vendors (who often don't have detailed pictures either) being able to examine a part in person at RadioShack is very handy.
Radio Shack filed voluntary for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to have the courts give them protection from their creditors. What has happened to Hyperion is not a voluntary but involuntary so that means their creditor(s) took them to court in order to force them into bankruptcy. When that happens, typically, the court will force liquidation (after giving a 30 day notice for other creditors to file for their fair share of any proceeds from those sales which I think ends March 4th, 2015) in order to resolve outstanding debts.
This is extremely serious and unless Hyperion can show there was either procedural mistake during the hearing or new evidence to be add into for the court to be considered, I highly doubt the courts will reverse themselves. That means the curator (Bert) is now running Hyperion while he does his due diligence and audit Hyperion's book keeping in order to confirm that the state and all creditors get what money is due from liquidation.
Bigger question is what is Amiga Inc going to do now.
Post by: Iggy on February 15, 2015, 04:49:50 PM
Quote from: dammy;784252
Radio Shack filed voluntary for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to have the courts give them protection from their creditors. What has happened to Hyperion is not a voluntary but involuntary so that means their creditor(s) took them to court in order to force them into bankruptcy. When that happens, typically, the court will force liquidation (after giving a 30 day notice for other creditors to file for their fair share of any proceeds from those sales which I think ends March 4th, 2015) in order to resolve outstanding debts.
This is extremely serious and unless Hyperion can show there was either procedural mistake during the hearing or new evidence to be add into for the court to be considered, I highly doubt the courts will reverse themselves. That means the curator (Bert) is now running Hyperion while he does his due diligence and audit Hyperion's book keeping in order to confirm that the state and all creditors get what money is due from liquidation.
Bigger question is what is Amiga Inc going to do now.
ACTUALLY, as a former business manager, contractor, and business owner your are VERY wrong.
This is NOT, as you put it "a very serious matter".
Its an attempt to collect a debt.
And one that would backfire in my own country where I would petition the court for chapter 11 protection.
Post by: number6 on February 15, 2015, 04:59:43 PM
Quote from: Iggy;784253
ACTUALLY, as a former business manager, contractor, and business owner your are VERY wrong.
This is NOT, as you put it "a very serious matter".
Its an attempt to collect a debt.
And one that would backfire in my own country where I would petition the court for chapter 11 protection.
In layman's terms, Belgium has a "one strike and your out" law.
Just saying...
#6
Post by: Boot_WB on February 15, 2015, 05:05:12 PM
That would be true if bankruptcy proceedings were only just beginning.
The bankruptcy proceedings are over, Hyperion had their chance to defend, lots and lots of paperwork and warnings would have been sent to their registered offices, most likely by recorded delivery, over a protracted period.
It is very serious, and whilst Hyperion may be 'rescued' (or not, plundering the assets may be cheaper than refloating the sunken boat), i doubt the ruling will be annulled.
It may also prevent certain people from holding directorship positions in future.
Either way, Hyperion will probably play Greece to AEon's Germany, with analogously punitive measures exacted for the rescue.
In the long term, probably good for OS4 if it survives the legal drama. Mind you, many of us thought that with the Hyperion vs Amiga Inc outcome...
Post by: vidarh on February 15, 2015, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Iggy;784253
ACTUALLY, as a former business manager, contractor, and business owner your are VERY wrong.
This is NOT, as you put it "a very serious matter".
Its an attempt to collect a debt.
And one that would backfire in my own country where I would petition the court for chapter 11 protection.
I agree. I've personally been on the receiving end of this, and "beat it". \
In our case it was a conflict over the validity of a debt, and we got "ambushed" with a bankruptcy hearing at a time we weren't available, even though we were clearly solvent. This happens all the time, and courts definitively are not happy when they realise. All kinds of other mistakes happens too (e.g. cases where the creditor has genuine reason to believe the company is insolvent, or even where the company itself believes it may be insolvent).
A lot of companies survive bankruptcy claims with only minor hassle. Of course, for that to matter in this case Hyperion must be solvent, or able to become solvent with the assistance of the administrator, and I have no idea if that's the case.
Post by: Yasu on February 15, 2015, 05:19:56 PM
Due to an administrative cock-up Hyperion weren't informormed about it until after the hearing. Now they have to appeal against the descision which will not be a problem, it will just take time. Development and Betatesting is going on as usual. No popcorn is required, don't panic and carry on as usual.
Post by: James2002 on February 15, 2015, 05:29:53 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784246
absolutely. there are certain people here who want to see hyperion fail, so they do everything to make it appear they have done. there are certain people here who want to see hyperion succeed, so they do everything to make it appear this is just a minor blip.
either way -- the only people who actually know anything for certain are the belgian courts, the receiver, mr. hermans and mr. de groote, and whomever filed the claim in the first place. everybody else is just guessing based on scant evidence. i highly suggest we wait and see what happens, both with hyperion and AOS4 development. :)
-- eliyahu
I like seeing people try to walk on water. :laughing:
I believe that it in appeal process. Based upon their facebook.
Message from Hyperion Entertainment Directors
The quote a famous writer: "the news of our demise is greatly exaggerated"
This is the result of an unfortunate administrative mishap by a third party and is in the process of being addressed/cleared up.
This may take a while as everything takes a while in Belgium whilst it comes to administrative and judicial matters.
Those dancing on our grave, sorry guys, no party here
Post by: Iggy on February 15, 2015, 05:38:07 PM
While I, like many of you, would wish Ben nothing but the worst of luck, it seems entirely likely that Hyperion will weather this difficulty without significant damage.
Governments, courts, and legal systems worldwide do not exist to hinder enterprise.
In fact, it is a common business principle that government and businesses partner to facilitate a beneficial business environment and assure financial success.
Would any of you care to challenge my virtually absolute conviction that this will all be worked out and that Hyperion will have no problem dealing with this...
Well, I'd be glad to rub your noses in your mistake over the months and years to come.
Jim
Post by: vidarh on February 15, 2015, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Boot_WB;784256
@Iggy
That would be true if bankruptcy proceedings were only just beginning.
That the initial proceedings are over just means that the court did not see evidence that gave them reason to throw out the initial claim, and so had reason to appoint an administrator to protect the interests of the creditors.
That's neither a big deal, nor scary if the company is actually solvent, as in that case the finding of a bankruptcy is generally invalid and can be easily overturned.
It's not at all unusual for bankruptcy courts (in general; I don't know specifics of Belgian courts) to be lenient about notification, on the assumption that an operating business will e.g. regularly process it's mail, and that the consequences of being overzealous can usually be easily rectified before it causes damage (while the converse is often not true - people can and do take the money and run). For small companies it's not that unusual for it to result in unpleasant surprises - been there, survived that (by demonstrating we had the money, and settling with a creditor we had a conflict with).
Of course, if Hyperion is insolvent, then it *is* a big deal.
Post by: Yasu on February 15, 2015, 06:07:26 PM
In Belgium anybody can file a bankruptcy claim even for 150 EUR or so. It
is a common pressure tactic used by parties who do not wish go to the usual
court process because most companies will pay rather than go through the
motions of fighting off a bankruptcy claim.
It is an abuse of procedure but in our case, matters came this far because
the company which handles our administrative seat did not hand over the
writ of summons in time for us to know about the claim.
We could easily have fended it off but now we need to overturn the judgment.
This was ofcourse not the intention of the claimant (quite the contrary)
but there you have it.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 15, 2015, 06:17:37 PM
"Well, I'd be glad to rub your noses in your mistake over the months and years to come."
And I will be here laughing at them with you!
Chris
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 15, 2015, 06:31:50 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784232
I'm just having a difficult time accepting the idea that Ben Hermans was one day going to work, whistling some peppy song because everything is going his way. He goes to the office, say hello to his coworkers and recieve the good news that AOS 4FE is selling well. And then he sees a letter at his desk, he opens it and see that the court of Belgium has for no reason at all decleared Hyperion bankrupt.
"There must be some mistake. Why haven't I heard of this matter before? We are paying our bills and our taxes and even making some money". He calls the court and the judge in question tells him:
"Oh, some guy sent us a letter the other day claiming he hasn't been paid and that you have no money to pay him. Because we are the court of Belgium, runned by third rate burocratic saps we of course believed him on the spot and without making any kind of investigation of the state of the company we declared it bankrupt. Because that's what we do. Are you now telling me he was lying? But ... he seemed so honest! I ... Oops, I did it again. File a complaint and maybe, just maybe, we will be nice enough to do our job and fix this. Unless we are out for lunch. Good bye."
Ben Hermans hang up the phone, he stands quiet for some very long seconds shaking, and then shouts "DAMN THIS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY AND IT'S LOUSY JURIDICAL SYSTEM!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!"
Just quoting your post because it is awesome. And also Exactly How The Legal System Works In My Country, in my experience. ;)
Post by: Yasu on February 15, 2015, 06:44:55 PM
Post by: Boot_WB on February 15, 2015, 11:17:52 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784245
this is both insulting and incorrect.
-- eliyahu
Ah, but which bit is which? :)
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 15, 2015, 11:20:06 PM
Quote from: Boot_WB;784304
Ah, but which bit is which? :)
;)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hsa6GCtEf78/U5z8DxYegPI/AAAAAAAAnhU/EJv5GKClnFE/s1600/10155873_10152362088986840_6776196773916683824_n.jpg)
Post by: Boot_WB on February 15, 2015, 11:22:41 PM
Post by: Iggy on February 16, 2015, 12:19:41 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784305
;)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hsa6GCtEf78/U5z8DxYegPI/AAAAAAAAnhU/EJv5GKClnFE/s1600/10155873_10152362088986840_6776196773916683824_n.jpg)
VERY good.
My coworkers will love that one.
Might have to have a tee shirt made with that located in the upper left.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 12:51:03 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784305
;)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hsa6GCtEf78/U5z8DxYegPI/AAAAAAAAnhU/EJv5GKClnFE/s1600/10155873_10152362088986840_6776196773916683824_n.jpg)
Sooo, people my REALLY love Hyperion then?
Post by: Iggy on February 16, 2015, 05:29:10 AM
Quote from: Yasu;784320
Sooo, people my REALLY love Hyperion then?
Not at all.
Frankly, were it possible, I'd like to see the moon fall on Ben.
However, this doesn't affect the fact that this legal proceeding is not significant.
AND, their are a few OS4 developers I actually like (even if they are using/developing the worse of the NG alternatives).
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 07:26:22 AM
Quote from: Iggy;784333
Not at all.
Frankly, were it possible, I'd like to see the moon fall on Ben.
However, this doesn't affect the fact that this legal proceeding is not significant.
AND, their are a few OS4 developers I actually like (even if they are using/developing the worse of the NG alternatives).
How can you be so sure it's not significant. Do you have some inside information we don't have ?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 16, 2015, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: Iggy;784333
Frankly, were it possible, I'd like to see the moon fall on Ben.
That's a lot of animosity there! Geeze you guys, it's only a computer operating system, after all! :lol:
Post by: dammy on February 16, 2015, 12:07:26 PM
Quote from: Iggy;784333
Not at all.
Frankly, were it possible, I'd like to see the moon fall on Ben.
However, this doesn't affect the fact that this legal proceeding is not significant.
Being taken to court in a forced bankruptcy is significant if actually leads to a hearing. Being taken to court by a third party (which has standing to do so) and having the court agree that the company is insolvent and assign a curator is devastating. This is not a couple of clicks of the mouse on a government db, this involves man power (I don't know how Belgium works their curator, but in the USA, curator's fees/costs are taken out of liquidation money) and such will build momentum to get this shoved through the system and finalized.
Curator will more then likely be auditing Hyperion's books, which may prove to be interesting in itself.
Post by: Rob on February 16, 2015, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: dammy;784348
Being taken to court in a forced bankruptcy is significant if actually leads to a hearing. Being taken to court by a third party (which has standing to do so) and having the court agree that the company is insolvent and assign a curator is devastating. This is not a couple of clicks of the mouse on a government db, this involves man power (I don't know how Belgium works their curator, but in the USA, curator's fees/costs are taken out of liquidation money) and such will build momentum to get this shoved through the system and finalized.
Curator will more then likely be auditing Hyperion's books, which may prove to be interesting in itself.
If it's just a case of proving that key paperwork wasn't handed to Ben on time and he is able to pay the creditor then it is not significant.
If they can't do the above then it becomes significant but reports so far suggest it isn't at that stage.
Anyway I thought you'd be furious about this. Big gubmint interfering with business and all that.
Post by: Faerytale on February 16, 2015, 01:54:54 PM
Post by: dammy on February 16, 2015, 02:32:17 PM
Quote from: Rob;784350
If it's just a case of proving that key paperwork wasn't handed to Ben on time and he is able to pay the creditor then it is not significant.
I thought Ben said it was a third party (vs a creditor)? Just who is this third party that has standing with the courts to force Hyperion into bankruptcy?
Quote
If they can't do the above then it becomes significant but reports so far suggest it isn't at that stage.
It if was just a creditor looking for their money, perhaps if it was insignificant if the debt was settled prior to the hearing. But this, in Ben's words, is a third party and they had the courts agree with them. Courts have assigned a curator who is calling for all claims against Hyperion and decide if liquidation is the only possible reasonable outcome. That sounds damn significant in my opinion.
Quote
Anyway I thought you'd be furious about this. Big gubmint interfering with business and all that.
Should you, as the big government cheerleader, be happy this has happened? Or are you just holding off until big government has audited all the accounting for tax purposes and has liquidated Hyperion? Now that's the power of Big Government only a Statist could love.
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2015, 02:36:58 PM
Quote from: dammy;784348
Being taken to court in a forced bankruptcy is significant if actually leads to a hearing. Being taken to court by a third party (which has standing to do so) and having the court agree that the company is insolvent and assign a curator is devastating.
All that is required to have standing to begin bankruptcy proceedings generally is for the company to have an outstanding, unsettled debt to you. E.g. paying an invoice too late and not heeding whatever statutory required warnings to pay.
In many countries, getting a hearing requires no more than paying a tiny fee and filling out a form.
Getting a finding of bankruptcy requires pretty much no evidence if the other party for whatever reason doesn't show up - which is not *that* unusual in the case of small companies - the scenario Hyperion has described where their registered seat/office is with a management company that has failed to pass on a document is definitively plausible (though that doesn't mean it can't also be a made up excuse).
No matter how much people here want this to be very serious, it is only serious if Hyperion actually is insolvent (and it's certainly possible they are, but as of now we don't know) and/or doesn't handle it properly.
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 02:37:53 PM
Quote
If it's just a case of proving that key paperwork wasn't handed to Ben on time and he is able to pay the creditor then it is not significant.
sorry but it sounds like the most dumb excuse one could come up with. im pretty sure the bankruptcy procedure doesnt just get started with a single bill paid a bit too late, as it seems to be suggested here and mindlessly repeated forever. the problems and the behaviour must have been notorious and therefore even if complete liquidation could be avoided this time it suggests it can happen again any other day soon. it definitely is an indication that the company is in very poor state. that means that any (further) investments will likely be lost. and i am not only speaking of money but also of feelings and contributions.
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 02:43:23 PM
Quote from: vidarh;784373
... and/or doesn't handle it properly.
they already didnt handle it properly since they let it happen to be declared bankrupt. not getting papers handed over on time.. mygod.. how much absent minded they must be. and the particular notion to hide this state of affairs from the community of people who depend on them, at least for the time being, since it would come out one day or another, indicates it is some sort of playing for time.
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2015, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: dammy;784372
I thought Ben said it was a third party (vs a creditor)? Just who is this third party that has standing with the courts to force Hyperion into bankruptcy?
What reason do you have to think a "third party" does not refer to a creditor? I read "third party" to mean "someone not the government *or* Hyperion". A reason for not referring to them as a creditor may be that Hyperion believes their claim to be invalid. But to the court they will be a creditor if they claim to be one and Hyperion isn't there to dispute it.
Quote
It if was just a creditor looking for their money, perhaps if it was insignificant if the debt was settled prior to the hearing. But this, in Ben's words, is a third party and they had the courts agree with them.
The courts agreed with the "third party" because Hyperion by their own admission was not represented at the hearing. According to Hyperion this was because the summons was not forwarded to them in time. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen, of course.
If a party does not show up, it is normal in most jurisdictions for many types of cases (including bankruptcy hearings) for the judge to treat the opposing party's evidence as true, and enter judgement accordingly, because the risk of a miscarriage of justice is small (if the company later is found to be solvent, the finding can trivially be reversed and the bankruptcy case closed; if on the other hand the judge does not grant a bankruptcy and it turns out the principals didn't show because they were busy hiding assets, the creditors may lose out big time).
Have you actually *dealt* with being on the receiving end of this? I have. As I've said before, it's no big deal *if* they're actually solvent and the story is as they've described it.
Post by: spudje on February 16, 2015, 02:49:16 PM
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 02:49:39 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;784374
sorry but it sounds like the most dumb excuse one could come up with. im pretty sure the bankruptcy procedure doesnt just get started with a single bill paid a bit too late, as it seems to be suggested here and mindlessly repeated forever. the problems and the behaviour must have been notorious and therefore even if complete liquidation could be avoided this time it suggests it can happen again any other day soon. it definitely is an indication that the company is in very poor state. that means that any (further) investments will likely be lost. and i am not only speaking of money but also of feelings and contributions.yeah, i thought the same initially, but then i looked into it with an attorney friend of mine. turns out that ben's story might not be so fishy after all. if he uses an agent for regulatory purposes -- someone who receives official mail, handles tax matters, etc. -- then it's possible that the notice was sent to said address and someone forgot to forward it along. yeah, i know that sounds a little unlikely, but it's possible.
as for being declared insolvent, that's a default judgement. if a creditor steps forward saying that they've submitted a bill a certain number of times, and there's no response, the court starts an inquiry. and if no response is given they can be declared insolvent and bankruptcy proceedings start. but they can still stand up after the fact (at least until the final report is issued) and say, no, we are alive and we can pay the bill, and then everything is overturned.
so it does seem like something from bizarro world, but ben may not be pulling our leg after all. a scenario like this is indeed possible. anyhoo -- the final report is due out in mid-march. so if it's real that hyperion is insolvent we'll know then. and if not, we should know prior to that. the one thing they can't overturn, though, is the potential loss of business this has all caused or the potential damage to their partners. so if it is indeed an issue of someone not forwarding official mail to ben, that 'oversight' has been a damn costly one.
personally since i don't have any money invested with them, i'm not bothered one way or another except that if it is true, then that's very sad for those involved and i feel bad for them. i'd also be worried about where AOS development would go from there, but only the future will tell. this is just a hobby for me, so i'm not terribly worked up about it. i'd recommend that to others, by the way. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2015, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;784375
they already didnt handle it properly since they let it happen to be declared bankrupt. not getting papers handed over on time..
You can't handle something properly if you don't know about it in the first place.
Quote
mygod.. how much absent minded they must be.
If it is the way they described it, then their registered office is a management company or law firm responsible for handling their administrative affairs. That's not at all an unusual arrangement for smaller companies (I've done that with several companies for various reasons). If so, it is not Hyperions fault if that company failed to carry out their job.
It could very well be it was Hyperion that messed up, but we don't have any evidence of that yet.
Quote
and the particular notion to hide this state of affairs from the community of people who depend on them, at least for the time being, since it would come out one day or another, indicates it is some sort of playing for time.
A bankruptcy claim is not something you generally go around shouting from the rooftops, exactly because of the type of reactions we see here.
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784378
personally since i don't have any money invested with them, i'm not bothered one way or another except that if it is true, then that's very sad for those involved and i feel bad for them. i'd also be worried about where AOS development would go from there, but only the future will tell. this is just a hobby for me, so i'm not terribly worked up about it. i'd recommend that to others, by the way. :)
-- eliyahu
you have no money invested in them? i thought you have a 3000$ computer dedicated to run system they provide? well, if this is nothing, then i envy you.
now, one can get hit by a car, fly over it, land behind on his back, stand up and start the quarrel with its driver. it happened to me twenty years ago. this dosnt mean, it is likely. look, a secretary that doesnt immediately froward the most significant writing, one that contains the company to be or not to be clause, to his boss must be either nuts or ill willed. a boss that hires such an employee must be at least very naive, sorry. it is really telling about the degraded state of affairs.
and especially seeing the issue is serious, one of they first steps towards the community, if they care for them and their loyalty at all, would be to issue official explanation note on the subject, rather than let their followers repeat out of context what they posted or said somewhere in the hidden.
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
Quote from: vidarh;784382
A bankruptcy claim is not something you generally go around shouting from the rooftops, exactly because of the type of reactions we see here.
yes, but for exactly this reason they would have to issue a note on this, knowing it will now at least take time to handle it, if at all. it would have been discovered sooner or later.
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 03:31:28 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;784384
you have no money invested in them? i thought you have a 3000$ computer dedicated to run system they provide? well, if this is nothing, then i envy you.no, i don't have a $3000 system dedicated to running AOS. but even if i did it's not an 'investment,' it's a purchase of a consumable item. i also have blackberries, two cars, and some lovely new dishes. they're not an investment either. ;)
Quote
this dosnt mean, it is likely. look, a secretary that doesnt immediately froward the most significant writing, one that contains the company to be or not to be clause, to his boss must be either nuts or ill willed. a boss that hires such an employee must be at least very naive, sorry. it is really telling about the degraded state of affairs.it certainly doesn't speak well for the agent, no. i'd expect they've been sacked after this -- again, assuming the story is true, which i tend to think it is.
Quote
and especially seeing the issue is serious, one of they first steps towards the community, if they care for them and their loyalty at all, would be to issue official explanation note on the subject, rather than let their followers repeat out of context what they posted or said somewhere in the hidden.absolutely! you couldn't be more correct here.
-- eliyahu
Post by: vidarh on February 16, 2015, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;784384
now, one can get hit by a car, fly over it, land behind on his back, stand up and start the quarrel with its driver. it happened to me twenty years ago. this dosnt mean, it is likely. look, a secretary that doesnt immediately froward the most significant writing, one that contains the company to be or not to be clause, to his boss must be either nuts or ill willed. a boss that hires such an employee must be at least very naive, sorry. it is really telling about the degraded state of affairs.
I get that it seems odd, but clearly you don't have experience with this, or you would have known that it is a relatively frequent occurrence. There are many reasons for using a company handling agent of some form, but ensuring prompt and speedy mail delivery is not one of them, and it would not at all be unusual for whomever signed for the summons to not know that it was particularly urgent. Furthermore, assuming what Hermans has said is true, that person would not be a Hyperion employee, but an employee of a company that normally handle their administrative matters (this is also a relatively common arrangement).
Failure to appear because of late delivery of papers happens fairly regularly in bankruptcy cases, because timelines on purpose are often short because it is cheaper to rectify after the fact.
If Hermans' claims are true, it at most tells you something about the "degraded state of affairs" of the company handling their administrative matters.
You may very well have legitimate issues to be unhappy with Hyperion, but absent actual facts, this is not a reason. Not yet, anyway. We'll see soon enough.
Quote
and especially seeing the issue is serious, one of they first steps towards the community, if they care for them and their loyalty at all, would be to issue official explanation note on the subject, rather than let their followers repeat out of context what they posted or said somewhere in the hidden.
Their first responsibility is *to the business*. If you're subject to what you believe to be a wrongful bankruptcy declaration, the last thing you should be doing is *actually* damaging the company by drawing peoples attention to it unnecessarily, or you may very easily find yourself bankrupt through your own stupidity even if the original claim is closed.
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 03:55:07 PM
Quote
Their first responsibility is *to the business*. If you're subject to what you believe to be a wrongful bankruptcy declaration, the last thing you should be doing is *actually* damaging the company by drawing peoples attention to it unnecessarily, or you may very easily find yourself bankrupt through your own stupidity even if the original claim is closed.
and since their business seems to be bound to their target audience, the most damaging is to appear dishonest to them. which is as it is looking like now.
Post by: Boot_WB on February 16, 2015, 04:10:30 PM
Quote from: vidarh;784393
I get that it seems odd, but clearly you don't have experience with this, or you would have known that it is a relatively frequent occurrence. There are many reasons for using a company handling agent of some form, but ensuring prompt and speedy mail delivery is not one of them, and it would not at all be unusual for whomever signed for the summons to not know that it was particularly urgent. Furthermore, assuming what Hermans has said is true, that person would not be a Hyperion employee, but an employee of a company that normally handle their administrative matters (this is also a relatively common arrangement).
Failure to appear because of late delivery of papers happens fairly regularly in bankruptcy cases, because timelines on purpose are often short because it is cheaper to rectify after the fact.
If Hermans' claims are true, it at most tells you something about the "degraded state of affairs" of the company handling their administrative matters.
You may very well have legitimate issues to be unhappy with Hyperion, but absent actual facts, this is not a reason. Not yet, anyway. We'll see soon enough.
Their first responsibility is *to the business*. If you're subject to what you believe to be a wrongful bankruptcy declaration, the last thing you should be doing is *actually* damaging the company by drawing peoples attention to it unnecessarily, or you may very easily find yourself bankrupt through your own stupidity even if the original claim is closed.
Actually the last thing one should be doing is pretending to still speak on behalf of the company.
All officers are suspended, the only person who can speak for Hyperion is the administrator.
Post by: dammy on February 16, 2015, 04:10:55 PM
Quote from: vidarh;784373
All that is required to have standing to begin bankruptcy proceedings generally is for the company to have an outstanding, unsettled debt to you. E.g. paying an invoice too late and not heeding whatever statutory required warnings to pay.
Creditors are not third party. If you pay your debt late, how could they take you to bankruptcy court? They can't. If you haven't paid a bill can they take you to court for bankruptcy? No, you take them to court and get a ruling from the court that they owe you money and then you proceed to collections phase. Which will take years and more court hearing to shake any money out of the debtor which is why most business will right it off as a loss since they will spend more money then they could ever get back.
Ben didn't show up, but the court ruled against him (which is standard), but the Third Party would have to show Hyperion's financial records in order to convince a judge that the company is insolvent. That's the riddle with this, how does a third party get standing to take Hyperion to court and to show a judge that it's reasonable and prudent to rule the company is insolvent without proof? Third Party is not a creditor (if it was, it wouldn't be a third party) so what is it's interest (and the legal standing) to proceed with the hearing?
Obviously this key bit of information Ben doesn't want to share with us.
Post by: Lionheart on February 16, 2015, 04:18:40 PM
Quote from: spudje;784377
The latest A-EON press release of OctaMED acquisition (and maybe previous ones too) states "Expect to see more software acquisitions in the future." So would one of these be AOS4.x??? Hehehehe... just feeding this thread a bit more :P
At this point A-Eon would be better off buying MorphOS, getting a license to use the AmigaOS name from Amiga Inc., and renaming it AmigaOS while still offering an edition called MorphOS for PowerPC computers outside their own. This way Amiga Inc. only owns the name, not the technology.
Quote from: eliyahu;784390
no, i don't have a $3000 system dedicated to running AOS. but even if i did it's not an 'investment,' it's a purchase of a consumable item. i also have blackberries, two cars, and some lovely new dishes. they're not an investment either. ;)
Last time I checked Hyperion's OS4 cost around $150, which was added to the price of each X1000 sold. So if you invested in an X1000 you invested in OS4, which is pretty much the only reason to buy one.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 04:31:41 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784398
At this point A-Eon would be better off buying MorphOS, getting a license to use the AmigaOS name from Amiga Inc., and renaming it AmigaOS while still offering an edition called MorphOS for PowerPC computers outside their own. This way Amiga Inc. only owns the name, not the technology.
That's pretty close what actually happened in the late 90's. Amiga Inc. approached the MorphOS developers to ask them about making their OS the new AmigaOS. They talked about it, got a contract they couldn't agree on and Amiga Inc. found Hyperion instead. So if things had been a little different, we would all have used MorphOS as AmigaOS today. Makes you think, doesn't it :)
[Edit] The MorphOS Team will most probably not sell their OS. They are fiercely independent. But it wouldn't hurt A-Eon to ask/pay them to port MorphOS to their computers too. It will give MorphOS more new hardware (besides the upcoming SAM 460 support) and A-Eon get more potential costumers. And hopefully it would help cross platform porting of software, ending this endless and tiresome sandbox sized bickering.
Post by: danbeaver on February 16, 2015, 04:33:48 PM
Even if all this negativism is true (which IMHO it is speculative at best), the Amiga in concept and form has survived.
[New dishes are great too; milch fleisch parve pesach, its all good]
Post by: Rob on February 16, 2015, 04:40:44 PM
Quote from: dammy;784397
Creditors are not third party. If you pay your debt late, how could they take you to bankruptcy court? They can't.
Evert Carton seems to disagree with you there Dammy and I think he's in a much better position to know about Belgian law than you.
The important part;
"it says, that some creditor, and no, it wasn't me, stepped to the Court, asking for a bankruptcy declaration of Hyperion."
The full post (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0#751691)
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 04:44:49 PM
Quote from: danbeaver;784402
Well, that is one opinion.agreed. oh, and they're for shabbos, so fleisch. ;)
Even if all this negativism is true (which IMHO it is speculative at best), the Amiga in concept and form has survived.
[New dishes are great too; milch fleisch parve pesach, its all good]
-- eliyahu
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 04:45:55 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784401
That's pretty close what actually happened in the late 90's. Amiga Inc. approached the MorphOS developers to ask them about making their OS the new AmigaOS. They talked about it, got a contract they couldn't agree on and Amiga Inc. found Hyperion instead. So if things had been a little different, we would all have used MorphOS as AmigaOS today. Makes you think, doesn't it :)
Absolutely, many whine about being 3 NG OS's. Well this is what happened and there's no going back, maybe the biggest reason we ended up in this mess is Hyperion so maybe they deserve a bankruptcy after all these years, you can't honestly say they've run their business with success. If they stayed away maybe the real AmigaOS that became MorphOS could have come to an agreement at a later negotiations and we wouldn't even know of this split.
Less and less people buy into OS4 and when asked for reasons why they blame it on the other NG OS'es but fail to see that in year 2015 people can't justify 3000 euros for average computer hardware so the user base can only shrink. It has became a rich mans hobby.
Post by: danbeaver on February 16, 2015, 04:56:29 PM
Quote from: Manu;784409
...
Less and less people buy into OS4 and when asked for reasons why they blame it on the other NG OS'es but fail to see that in year 2015 people can't justify 3000 euros for average computer hardware so the user base can only shrink. It has became a rich mans hobby.
This is one person's opinion, but not so rich men spend 3 grand on gaming rigs to squeak an extra frame per second out of a game all the time; so the Amiga should be the hobby of only the poor, the uneducated, the huddled masses?
[I love the following pattern, http://www.pickardchina.com/results.cfm/pickard_china?pattern=2293]
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 04:58:46 PM
But it's perfectly possible that it's this hostility, or competition that has made the 3 OS'es come as far as they have. Sparring each other, taking crap from the others and feeling an need to prove their system better. So maybe, just maybe, without the 3 OS'es around to spill their anger towards each other we might have had one OS that gave up somewhere halfway without ever being useful, and the remaining users sticking with retro or fading away.
We just don't know. But we shouldn't assume that the current situation is the worst possible. This might just be the middle ground :)
Post by: Rob on February 16, 2015, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: Manu;784409
Absolutely, many whine about being 3 NG OS's. Well this is what happened and there's no going back, maybe the biggest reason we ended up in this mess is Hyperion so maybe they deserve a bankruptcy after all these years, you can't honestly say they've run their business with success. If they stayed away maybe the real AmigaOS that became MorphOS could have come to an agreement at a later negotiations and we wouldn't even know of this split.
Less and less people buy into OS4 and when asked for reasons why they blame it on the other NG OS'es but fail to see that in year 2015 people can't justify 3000 euros for average computer hardware so the user base can only shrink. It has became a rich mans hobby.
The blame lies with the weak leadership of Amiga Inc and their lack of any real interest in the existing IP.
Post by: giZmo350 on February 16, 2015, 05:03:47 PM
It's not like an apple is going to fall your head! :lol:
Post by: danbeaver on February 16, 2015, 05:07:15 PM
Quote from: Rob;784415
The blame lies with the weak leadership of Amiga Inc and their lack of any real interest in the existing IP.
This Amiga, Inc (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga,_Inc.)??
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 05:08:28 PM
Quote from: Manu;784409
Less and less people buy into OS4 and when asked for reasons why they blame it on the other NG OS'esname five.
Quote
in year 2015 people can't justify 3000 euros for average computer hardware so the user base can only shrink. It has became a rich mans hobby.at least 200 people disagree. and the X1000 isn't 3000EUR. oh, and for the record, i bought my first system for less than $600. my next machine was only $400. that may be expensive in your eyes, but it wasn't in mine. please don't take your feelings, project them on everyone else, and then draw false conclusions.
-- eliyahu
Post by: danbeaver on February 16, 2015, 05:13:35 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;784416
Why do you guys keep posting about a situation of which you don't have the facts?
It's not like an apple is going to fall your head! :lol:
If that refers to Issac Newton, no apple fell on his head; he used its mass to calculate the speed it would need to travel to be in orbit around the earth where centrifugal force is equal to centripedal force. This Calculation was used by Halley to name the comet.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 16, 2015, 05:23:00 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784418
name five.
at least 200 people disagree. and the X1000 isn't 3000EUR. oh, and for the record, i bought my first system for less than $600. my next machine was only $400. that may be expensive in your eyes, but it wasn't in mine. please don't take your feelings, project them on everyone else, and then draw false conclusions.
-- eliyahu
it is a hobby for all of us and people spend lots of money on hobbies, it is a matter of interest and available resources. I "overjumped" the PPC time so for me PPC is just another platform and has no special meaning. Others prefer AmigaOS or MorphOS just because of that so we will always have different views on it.
@Topic
We will see what happens after 4.3.. Perhaps nothing like some say, perhaps Hyperion will have big troubles like other say. I am no attorney and I do not know Belgium laws in detail, expecially I do not know what now exactly happens around it because that is only known to the appointed attorney. And even if (worst case) Hyperion really would stay bankrupt then assets are sold so I assume that there are people interested in (at least) keeping how it is, most development is done by voluntary doing it in their spare time so I do not think that much changes to current situation. And existing hardware do not stop working.
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 05:29:59 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;784421
it is a hobby for all of us and people spend lots of money on hobbies, it is a matter of interest and available resources. I "overjumped" the PPC time so for me PPC is just another platform and has no special meaning. Others prefer AmigaOS or MorphOS just because of that so we will always have different views on it.exactly. it's just a hobby, and we each have our own ways to enjoy it. well said. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: Fats on February 16, 2015, 06:43:37 PM
Post by: Lionheart on February 16, 2015, 06:55:10 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784401
That's pretty close what actually happened in the late 90's. Amiga Inc. approached the MorphOS developers to ask them about making their OS the new AmigaOS. They talked about it, got a contract they couldn't agree on and Amiga Inc. found Hyperion instead. So if things had been a little different, we would all have used MorphOS as AmigaOS today. Makes you think, doesn't it :)
Amiga Inc. wanted to outsource the development and own the source. Hyperion's problem was accepting the low amount Amiga Inc. paid them ($25,000) to develop the OS. I suspect that they'll try this again when Hyperion goes bankrupt but OS4 is obsolete and needs to be replaced the same way Apple replaced their classic version of MacOS with OSX after they bought over NeXTSTEP and brought back Steve Jobs.
MorphOS has nothing to lose and everything to gain in a deal with A-Eon. They could continue to sell MorphOS for PowerPC systems and a version called AmigaOS with added features and software for A-Cube and A-Eon. Even at the lowest price MorphOS sells their operating system (around $75 for one EfikaPPC system) they would make $15,000 if A-Eon even sells 200 and $30,000 for the same amount of computers sold if they were charging the same price Hyperion charges for each X1000 sold.
Quote from: danbeaver;784412
This is one person's opinion, but not so rich men spend 3 grand on gaming rigs to squeak an extra frame per second out of a game all the time; so the Amiga should be the hobby of only the poor, the uneducated, the huddled masses?
And for less than 3 grand they get a modern and more technologically advanced computer that can play the latest games, not a $3,000 paperweight that was obsolete almost a decade ago and that can't even run the latest software let alone the latest games.
Quote from: eliyahu;784418
at least 200 people disagree. and the X1000 isn't 3000EUR. oh, and for the record, i bought my first system for less than $600. my next machine was only $400. that may be expensive in your eyes, but it wasn't in mine. please don't take your feelings, project them on everyone else, and then draw false conclusions.
-- eliyahu
O_o Seriously? And yet you don't see the problem here? I'm sorry but how likely do you think someone is to develop new software for a user base of 200?
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 07:04:22 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784440
O_o Seriously? And yet you don't see the problem here? I'm sorry but how likely do you think someone is to develop new software for a user base of 200?i was just talking about X1000 users, which is what the post i was replying referred. the AOS4 user base is larger, but of course you're right. it is unlikely for most of the outside world to care about a user base of only a few thousand. which is why, i think anyway, A-EON is working on developing as many amiga software titles as possible -- to get the much larger base of people from the 68k days back on-board. just a guess, though.
-- eliyahu
Post by: Erol on February 16, 2015, 07:20:04 PM
is A-eon buying Hyperion?
and as for OS4.1, is Final release (THE FINAL END)?
I'm very confused.
btw, Amigaworld thread is much longer.. lol
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 07:26:23 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784418
name five.
at least 200 people disagree. and the X1000 isn't 3000EUR. oh, and for the record, i bought my first system for less than $600. my next machine was only $400. that may be expensive in your eyes, but it wasn't in mine. please don't take your feelings, project them on everyone else, and then draw false conclusions.
-- eliyahu
Oh yes for the record it's €2,826.25 add to that some shipping and maybe 2 GB ram + keyb/mouse and you're damn close. So good if you got a system for $600 I bet it's not preforming anywhere near X1000 either. But I see a point in selling a system for 600 if it's a reasonable machine and not dog slow, but I see no reason whatsoever to promote a path where users are going to cough up money in the thousands for every new generation of boards, I bet the next generation isn't going to be sold under 3000 either. What kind of business is that ? I thought the plan for AmigaOS was to grow not to make some special club where wealthy people thrive.
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 07:35:27 PM
Quote from: danbeaver;784412
This is one person's opinion, but not so rich men spend 3 grand on gaming rigs to squeak an extra frame per second out of a game all the time; so the Amiga should be the hobby of only the poor, the uneducated, the huddled masses?
[I love the following pattern, http://www.pickardchina.com/results.cfm/pickard_china?pattern=2293]
It sure is my opinion and it's not going to change in the near future either.
Post by: yssing on February 16, 2015, 07:36:44 PM
Post by: Rob on February 16, 2015, 07:37:15 PM
Quote from: Erol;784448
question so what is the official news?
is A-eon buying Hyperion?
and as for OS4.1, is Final release (THE FINAL END)?
I'm very confused.
btw, Amigaworld thread is much longer.. lol
Official news is that Hyperion has been ruled bankrupt and are currently appealing against the ruling. Anything else you read is speculation.
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 07:41:21 PM
Quote from: Erol;784448
question so what is the official news?no.
is A-eon buying Hyperion?
Quote
and as for OS4.1, is Final release (THE FINAL END)?no.
Quote
I'm very confused.after the determined FUD campaign by a few folks around the forums, i'm not surprised. so let my try and help: hyperion is not genuinely bankrupt, but there was an initial decree due to a variety of circumstances (you can find the details from ben hermans over on AWN). they will be demonstrating solvency to the belgian courts to overturn the initial decree in the coming weeks. AOS4 development continues. AOS 4.2 is still under active development.
-- eliyahu
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: yssing;784454
AOS is not only for the rich, come on, come up with a better excuse.
Excuse for what? I need no excuse I'm done with it been done with it since 2005
Post by: Erol on February 16, 2015, 07:51:06 PM
@eliyahu
Thank you, the fog has lifted..
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: Manu;784459
Excuse for what? I need no excuse I'm done with it been done with it since 2005and lecturing us on why ever since. :lol:
-- eliyahu
Post by: Erol on February 16, 2015, 08:07:07 PM
its also on twitter.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 08:11:49 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784440
MorphOS has nothing to lose and everything to gain in a deal with A-Eon. They could continue to sell MorphOS for PowerPC systems and a version called AmigaOS with added features and software for A-Cube and A-Eon. Even at the lowest price MorphOS sells their operating system (around $75 for one EfikaPPC system) they would make $15,000 if A-Eon even sells 200 and $30,000 for the same amount of computers sold if they were charging the same price Hyperion charges for each X1000 sold.
I don't know about that. They would have if they didn't support the Macs because most people are simply not prepared to invest so much money into one single computer nowadays. But I would still love to see a port to these computers. I think that the one who would gain the most is A-Eon after this bankruptcy mess. Some people are probably refraining from buying X1000 and it's successors because they are afraid that AmigaOS 4 might stop being developed soon (we do have one confirmed case of that). If they at least had an Amigalike alternative like MorphOS they might buy one anyway. That said, I think most if not all people buy an A-Eon computer only for the sake of running AmigaOS 4 on it.
I think the MorphOS Team would port it for the price of one or two free computer(s) or motherboard(s). That might be a little too expensive for A-Eon if they are really not that interested.
Post by: Lionheart on February 16, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784470
I don't know about that. They would have if they didn't support the Macs because most people are simply not prepared to invest so much money into one single computer nowadays. But I would still love to see a port to these computers. I think that the one who would gain the most is A-Eon after this bankruptcy mess. Some people are probably refraining from buying X1000 and it's successors because they are afraid that AmigaOS 4 might stop being developed soon (we do have one confirmed case of that). If they at least had an Amigalike alternative like MorphOS they might buy one anyway. That said, I think most if not all people buy an A-Eon computer only for the sake of running AmigaOS 4 on it.
I think the MorphOS Team would port it for the price of one or two free computer(s) or motherboard(s). That might be a little too expensive for A-Eon if they are really not that interested.
A-Eon should give at least 3 computers and negotiate with MorphOS to sell a version of their OS for A-Eon and ACube's computers at a reduced price. However, A-Eon should get a license to use the AmigaOS name or renegotiate the license they have with Amiga, Inc., as I'm not sure if the current license they have allows them to sell hardware using the Amiga name without AmigaOS.
Post by: danbeaver on February 16, 2015, 08:49:47 PM
Quote from: Manu;784452
It sure is my opinion and it's not going to change in the near future either.And it is my money and I will spend it any way I want; and that is my opinion.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 08:58:37 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784475
A-Eon should give at least 3 computers and negotiate with MorphOS to sell a version of their OS for A-Eon and ACube's computers at a reduced price. However, A-Eon should get a license to use the AmigaOS name or renegotiate the license they have with Amiga, Inc., as I'm not sure if the current license they have allows them to sell hardware using the Amiga name without AmigaOS.
I think so too :)
I don't think Amiga Inc. will be helpful. The OS/4 guy who came and went like a storm asked him for a licence and was demanded 600.000 dollars and 5% of all the profit. I hardly would think that as either advantageous nor affordable.
Post by: number6 on February 16, 2015, 09:12:35 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784477
I think so too :)
I don't think Amiga Inc. will be helpful. The OS/4 guy who came and went like a storm asked him for a licence and was demanded 600.000 dollars and 5% of all the profit. I hardly would think that as either advantageous nor affordable.
Just curious what figure you feel is "affordable".
Six hundred dollars is out of that range?
Quote
But in case anyones interested it costs $600.00 plus a 5% royalty a year for a brand license.
Source (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37810&forum=17&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#710057)
#6
Post by: Manu on February 16, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: danbeaver;784476
And it is my money and I will spend it any way I want; and that is my opinion.
Welcome to the rich mans club then. ;)
Post by: Paulie85 on February 16, 2015, 09:37:00 PM
Quote from: number6;784479
Just curious what figure you feel is "affordable".
Six hundred dollars is out of that range?
Source (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37810&forum=17&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#710057)
#6
That seems very reasonable to me.
Post by: Terminills on February 16, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784418
name five.
at least 200 people disagree. and the X1000 isn't 3000EUR. oh, and for the record, i bought my first system for less than $600. my next machine was only $400. that may be expensive in your eyes, but it wasn't in mine. please don't take your feelings, project them on everyone else, and then draw false conclusions.
-- eliyahu
Seems silly but would you like links? :)
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
Quote from: number6;784479
Just curious what figure you feel is "affordable".
Six hundred dollars is out of that range?
It's just a name. And that price has to be added somewhere. Would you pay an extra 500$ just for the luxury to call the computer an "Amiga"? It's not like we aren't doing that already anyway.
Post by: Lionheart on February 16, 2015, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784477
I think so too :)
I don't think Amiga Inc. will be helpful. The OS/4 guy who came and went like a storm asked him for a licence and was demanded 600.000 dollars and 5% of all the profit. I hardly would think that as either advantageous nor affordable.
A-Eon is most likely already paying that amount in their license agreement with Amiga, Inc. And $600 a year and 5% in royalties shouldn't be a lot for a company selling overpriced $3,000 computers.
Amiga, Inc. doesn't have to be helpful, they just don't have to be stupid. Without someone to license the name to they might as well not even exist. They don't make or develop anything anyway. Letting go of OS4 would make their IP more useless than it already is, leaving them only able to license out the Amiga name.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 10:34:18 PM
Quote from: Lionheart;784490
A-Eon is most likely already paying that amount in their license agreement with Amiga, Inc. And $600 a year and 5% in royalties shouldn't be a lot for a company selling overpriced $3,000 computers.
Amiga, Inc. doesn't have to be helpful, they just don't have to be stupid. Without someone to license the name to they might as well not even exist. They don't make or develop anything anyway. Letting go of OS4 would make their IP more useless than it already is, leaving them only able to license out the Amiga name.
Are they? The X1000 is called an "AmigaOne" and not an "Amiga". AFAIK the "AmigaOne" name was granted to Hyperion in the 2009 agreement with Amiga Inc. Maybe Hyperion is taking a name licensing fee but I have never heard of such a thing.
And it's was not 600$ a year, but 600.000$ up front, plus 5% of all profits.
Post by: bison on February 16, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784160
@gizmo350,
Z's are very nice but getting too old for a stick.
I hope that doesn't happen to me. I'm not as agile as I used to be, but I can still push the left pedal and move that lever around.
Post by: Kremlar on February 16, 2015, 10:45:38 PM
Quote
And it's was not 600$ a year, but 600.000$ up front, plus 5% of all profits.
Where do you see that? Original quote says $600. Seems very reasonable.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 10:53:09 PM
Quote from: Kremlar;784497
Where do you see that? Original quote says $600. Seems very reasonable.
Are you referring back to me or do you have another source? I checked and my writing was "600.000 dollars".
Post by: Kremlar on February 16, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
Quote
Are you referring back to me or do you have another source? I checked and my writing was "600.000 dollars".
The source is a post someone else linked to:
http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37810&forum=17&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#710057
Post by: yssing on February 16, 2015, 11:03:27 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784488
It's just a name. And that price has to be added somewhere. Would you pay an extra 500$ just for the luxury to call the computer an "Amiga"? It's not like we aren't doing that already anyway.
People pay a lot more than that for apple puters.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 11:11:31 PM
Quote from: Kremlar;784499
The source is a post someone else linked to:
http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=37810&forum=17&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#710057
You are right. I somehow added three zeros there. 600$ isn't much.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: yssing;784501
People pay a lot more than that for apple puters.
Yeah, but Apple make the hardware and own their own brand name.
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 16, 2015, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784498
I checked and my writing was "600.000 dollars".
Funny Europeans. There'd be a lot less confusion if you guys used commas instead of periods, i.e., $600,000 as opposed to $600.000 (where that extra zero can be much more easily confused). Of course I suppose a comma in the wrong place would still make it look like $60,000. Ya just can't win, LOL. :roflmao:
Post by: ferrellsl on February 16, 2015, 11:17:41 PM
Quote from: Yasu;784504
Yeah, but Apple make the hardware and own their own brand name.
Apple doesn't manufacture anything other than smoke and mirrors. They get their hardware from the same Pacific Rim manufacturers as Dell, HP, etc...
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 11:22:30 PM
Quote from: vidarh;784393
I get that it seems odd, but clearly you don't have experience with this, or you would have known that it is a relatively frequent occurrence.
frequent occurrence? i try to work with people whom i can trust. or at least to calculate to what extent they are to be trusted. okay, oversights happen, but this is such an essential one that renders the whole service of that "3rd party" invaluable.
also, even if some court correspondence arrived too late to take opposing action, what about the cause of this all, which obviously must be a separately genuine issue. is there just another third party involved?
Post by: wawrzon on February 16, 2015, 11:26:43 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;784506
Apple doesn't manufacture anything other than smoke and mirrors. They get their hardware from the same Pacific Rim manufacturers as Dell, HP, etc...
which is why i never buy anything apple save once a lcd display im actually using till today. still, apple customers get some work done with apple devices and are apparently satisfied. it cannot be compared to anything os4 offers, except one has really lost his mind in transfer.
Post by: Yasu on February 16, 2015, 11:28:08 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;784506
Apple doesn't manufacture anything other than smoke and mirrors. They get their hardware from the same Pacific Rim manufacturers as Dell, HP, etc...
Well, OK, sure, but they still own their own brand name. A-Eon uses the name AmigaOne. Isn't that enough? Why do we need to make expensive hardware even more expensive?
Post by: eliyahu on February 16, 2015, 11:37:36 PM
Quote from: Terminills;784486
Seems silly but would you like links? :)my bluff has been called! :lol:
it's ok. i'll take your word for it, although if you have any examples handy, that'd be great. i honestly had a hard time believing people would be so childish as to drop something they liked because someone else said something they didn't like. oh well. to each their own.
-- eliyahu
Post by: Boot_WB on February 17, 2015, 12:27:01 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;784456
no.
no.
after the determined FUD campaign by a few folks around the forums, i'm not surprised. so let my try and help: hyperion is not genuinely bankrupt,
Yes. Yes they are.
All company officers are suspended and an Administrator has been appointed by the Belgian courts.
They Are Bankrupt: legally, factually, in a business sense: business operations are suspended and they have been declared bankrupt.
They are attempting to appeal against the ruling, we'll see how that goes.
Stop lying. Stop trying to warp reality: Hyperion are bankrupt. Any fool with an internet connection can prove it with current legal documents.
Quote
but there was an initial decree due to a variety of circumstances (you can find the details from ben hermans over on AWN).
Dog ate homework... Lost in the post... Etc
Just the usual bullcrap from Ben.
Ask Amiga Inc how lenient the judge should be with regard to Hyperions failure to 'dot the i's' in time.Quotethey will be demonstrating solvency to the belgian courts to overturn the initial decree in the coming weeks.
No, that chance has passed, the ruling has been made, and they're now having to appeal against the ruling.
I doubt any judge will accept incompetent business admin (failing to collect post from their registered offices) as a reason to turn back time by anulling the previous ruling. And that's taking HyperionMP's word for it on all other counts.
Post by: Terminills on February 17, 2015, 12:51:26 AM
In you opinion would that make people claiming that Hyperion not being bankrupt be the ones spreading FUD? :)
Post by: danbeaver on February 17, 2015, 12:55:35 AM
Post by: Terminills on February 17, 2015, 01:01:46 AM
Quote from: danbeaver;784519
Well I guess it is time to sit at home and cry. BooHoo, BooHoo.
Down in Whoville? :)
Post by: eliyahu on February 17, 2015, 01:02:16 AM
Quote from: Boot_WB;784516
They Are Bankrupt: legally, factually, in a business sense: business operations are suspended and they have been declared bankrupt.easy there, big fella. i'm not trying to warp anything at all. i'm just repeating my understanding of things: according to a friend of mine who actually is an attorney in france (and is familiar with how things work in belgium), the declaration does not mean the company is actually insolvent. a final report has to be issued first. but even if that wasn't the case, if i'm incorrect on the facts, then i stand corrected.
They are attempting to appeal against the ruling, we'll see how that goes.
Stop lying. Stop trying to warp reality: Hyperion are bankrupt. Any fool with an internet connection can prove it with current legal documents.
let's see how this turns out, shall we? if it turns out that in mid-march the final court decision is that hyperion is insolvent, by all means say 'i told you so.' i'm not taking any of this seriously, and i highly suggest others don't either. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: Boot_WB on February 17, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;784521
easy there, big fella. i'm not trying to warp anything at all. i'm just repeating my understanding of things: according to a friend of mine who actually is an attorney in france (and is familiar with how things work in belgium), the declaration does not mean the company is actually insolvent. a final report has to be issued first. but even if that wasn't the case, if i'm incorrect on the facts, then i stand corrected.
let's see how this turns out, shall we? if it turns out that in mid-march the final court decision is that hyperion is insolvent, by all means say 'i told you so.' i'm not taking any of this seriously, and i highly suggest others don't either. :)
-- eliyahu
Sorry dude, just makes me react to see people not only accepting and repeating Ben's assertions, but actually embellishing and rephrasing it as the de facto state of affairs when this is in opposition to the legal reality.
Again, apologies for the strong language. :)
Post by: giZmo350 on February 17, 2015, 01:08:45 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;784521
if it turns out that in mid-march the final court decision is that hyperion is insolvent, by all means say 'i told you so.' i'm not taking any of this seriously, and i highly suggest others don't either. :)Does that mean that this thread is going to continue at it's current pace till mid March... and beyond? :crazy:
-- eliyahu
This non-sense takes the fun out of remembering when computing was fun... :hammer:
I'll come back in mid April.... TTFN!!! :)
I have 3 Miggy projects to keep me busy till then anyway... :)
(http://acaciahrsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/HR_Solutions_Never_Ending_Job_Search.jpg)
Post by: eliyahu on February 17, 2015, 01:15:00 AM
Quote from: Boot_WB;784522
Sorry dude, just makes me react to see people not only accepting and repeating Ben's assertions, but actually embellishing and rephrasing it as the de facto state of affairs when this is in opposition to the legal reality.no problem. i didn't believe ben, either, by the way. that's why i asked. my understanding was that basically the trustee at this point can plan to do whatever they please with the assets, but if other creditors file against planned actions or the directors themselves demonstrate solvency, then things change. plus the directors can appeal directly to the court to overturn the decree prior to the issuance of the final report. but they had better hurry because the trustee can start running things if they really wanted to.
Again, apologies for the strong language. :)
gotta say the 'dog ate my homework thing' from ben sounded absurd, but it's possible. unlikely and demonstrative of a terrible third-party administrative agent, but possible. anyway -- i'm curious to see how things end up. depending on who the 'creditors' are, hey, a bankruptcy might be a force for good, as evert has stated over on AWN. we'll see.
-- eliyahu
Post by: wawrzon on February 17, 2015, 01:20:59 AM
in that case why are you constantly calling people trolls and spreading fud for what you admit yourself?
Post by: eliyahu on February 17, 2015, 01:27:05 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;784526
@eliyahui didn't call anyone a troll. if anyone was trolling, they'd be contacted via PM.
in that case why are you constantly calling people trolls and spreading fud for what you admit yourself?
-- eliyahu
Post by: gertsy on February 17, 2015, 01:46:46 AM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 17, 2015, 02:08:21 AM
Quote from: gizmo350;784523
Does that mean that this thread is going to continue at it's current pace till mid March... and beyond? :crazy:
Oh hell, if that's the case, you guys should go back to talking about your souped up ricers. :laughing:
Post by: Rob on February 17, 2015, 02:33:52 AM
Quote from: Terminills;784517
@Boot_WB
In you opinion would that make people claiming that Hyperion not being bankrupt be the ones spreading FUD? :)
It's the opposite of FUD so it would be DUF (Dedication Unconcern Faith).
Post by: Lurch on February 17, 2015, 02:44:10 AM
Bankrupt?
No was a mistake.
Wait until court case is finished.
GTR is king.
Post by: Rob on February 17, 2015, 02:53:13 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784549
Oh hell, if that's the case, you guys should go back to talking about your souped up ricers. :laughing:
(http://s4.postimg.org/oi1xrnea5/20140711_132443.jpg)
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 17, 2015, 03:22:37 AM
Post by: Plaz on February 17, 2015, 03:25:34 AM
(http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh331/PlazinJavelin/18b75c15-6c8e-4312-80b9-fc3cb4b324a4.jpg) (http://s544.photobucket.com/user/PlazinJavelin/media/18b75c15-6c8e-4312-80b9-fc3cb4b324a4.jpg.html)
Plaz
Post by: Terminills on February 17, 2015, 04:19:37 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;784510
my bluff has been called! :lol:
it's ok. i'll take your word for it, although if you have any examples handy, that'd be great. i honestly had a hard time believing people would be so childish as to drop something they liked because someone else said something they didn't like. oh well. to each their own.
-- eliyahu
Here's a classic. :)
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32327&forum=14
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 17, 2015, 04:26:04 AM
Quote from: Plaz;784568
uh-oh, thread just got more interesting for me. lol, How about my next 'miggy upgrade?
(http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh331/PlazinJavelin/18b75c15-6c8e-4312-80b9-fc3cb4b324a4.jpg) (http://s544.photobucket.com/user/PlazinJavelin/media/18b75c15-6c8e-4312-80b9-fc3cb4b324a4.jpg.html)
Plaz
Nice. 32-bit? :lol:
Post by: Plaz on February 17, 2015, 04:53:30 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784572
Nice. 32-bit? :lol:
Gas powered network card. Tight fit even for my A2000 case though. :)
Plaz
Post by: Manu on February 17, 2015, 06:18:02 AM
Quote from: Rob;784561
Is that a Ford Granada ? :P
Post by: bison on February 17, 2015, 06:27:05 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784549
Oh hell, if that's the case, you guys should go back to talking about your souped up ricers. :laughing:
Here's one from the factory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5F18o8xayA
Post by: OlafS3 on February 17, 2015, 09:52:14 AM
Quote from: eliyahu;784524
no problem. i didn't believe ben, either, by the way. that's why i asked. my understanding was that basically the trustee at this point can plan to do whatever they please with the assets, but if other creditors file against planned actions or the directors themselves demonstrate solvency, then things change. plus the directors can appeal directly to the court to overturn the decree prior to the issuance of the final report. but they had better hurry because the trustee can start running things if they really wanted to.
gotta say the 'dog ate my homework thing' from ben sounded absurd, but it's possible. unlikely and demonstrative of a terrible third-party administrative agent, but possible. anyway -- i'm curious to see how things end up. depending on who the 'creditors' are, hey, a bankruptcy might be a force for good, as evert has stated over on AWN. we'll see.
-- eliyahu
I know from here that very small companies outsource administration (accounting and so on) to special small services companies. It is still embarrassing for a attorney that this happens to him. What still wonders me is that "one missed letter" leads to being appointed bankrupt. Letter can be gone lost so I am pretty sure that bankruptcy here in germany (if not declared voluntary) is at the end of a process ignoring letters. But of course perhaps it is true. But even if it is now a legal process that is in the works and situation will depend on what happens now around the appointed attorney.
Post by: Rob on February 17, 2015, 11:12:13 AM
Quote from: Manu;784581
Is that a Ford Granada ? :P
Escort Mk6.
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 17, 2015, 09:34:51 PM
Man, I wish I still had my old cars: '70, '76, and '79 Oldsmobiles, and my 1972 Buick Electra "deuce and a quarter". That thing had a 7.5L, 455 cubic inch engine (same as my '70 Olds). Used to say it would pass everything but gas stations. It got about 10mpg, downhill, in neutral, with a tail wind. Full power everything though: power windows, power seats, power steering, power brakes, power doorlocks, etc. It was full-on luxury, and no fancy computers to make it complicated to work on. ;)
Time passes and I needed a practical vehicle, though. Here's my current truck, an '07 Colorado. Does fantastic in the snow, just gotta watch out for all the yahoos out there playing bumper cars on the roads. Ugh! :( Waiting for 2016 for the new diesel Colorado's to come out, they should be something! :)
Post by: magnetic on February 18, 2015, 03:13:28 AM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 18, 2015, 03:32:50 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784701
Why are you people hijacking this thread with stupid car comments and why are the mods allowing it? wtf?
Have a little fun, it's going to be all backbiting and speculation about the Hyperion situation at this point in time, anyway. And who wants to read that? :lol:
Post by: QuikSanz on February 18, 2015, 03:41:38 AM
Chris
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 18, 2015, 05:41:49 AM
I just bought a new-ish Camaro and gave my oldest son the 97 Firebird I've been driving forever.
After having the car for two days (tonight) he calls me and says that "there was a loud noise so I pulled over and when I put it in park, it still rolls".
He's broken either a u-joint (I hope) or the drive shaft or something. Not sure which yet.
I just now got it towed back home, so now I know what I'm doing for the weekend.:pint:
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 18, 2015, 05:50:10 AM
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 18, 2015, 05:54:49 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;784720
U-joints aren't too bad. Hope the repairs don't leave you bankrupt! ;)
Yeah, I hope it's something expendable like that. I'd hate to go scrounging for a driveshaft this weekend.
Hopefully it didn't flop too much when whatever it is came loose.
This just wasn't what I had planned when I budgeted for getting that car last week.
Post by: Lurch on February 18, 2015, 07:41:37 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784701
Why are you people hijacking this thread with stupid car comments and why are the mods allowing it? wtf?
Should be split, car talk moved to off topic/coffee shop or whatever and they can continue the discussion there.
Makes it nice and tidy.
Post by: Manu on February 18, 2015, 08:44:52 AM
Quote from: magnetic;784701
Why are you people hijacking this thread with stupid car comments and why are the mods allowing it? wtf?
Bring something to the discussion then instead of making stupid comments about stupid car comments. I thought most of the discussion was over and we were in wait and see mode here.
Post by: danbeaver on February 18, 2015, 09:17:13 AM
There is nothing sweeter than the sound of a 427 Chevy engine with mechanical lifters and a tri-barrel carb at idle.
Post by: amigadave on February 18, 2015, 05:31:43 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;784386
yes, but for exactly this reason they would have to issue a note on this, knowing it will now at least take time to handle it, if at all. it would have been discovered sooner or later.
I hope that Ben Hermans learns from this mistake and pays his creditors on time from now on, but I doubt it.
I think that many/most attorneys think that they can get away without paying their bills on time (and maybe sometimes not pay some of them at all), because they know they have the ability to defend themselves in court without having to pay another attorney to show up in court for them. All it costs them is their own time, which is no loss if they don't have a client to bill for that same amount of time that they spend in court defending themselves.
As you wrote, Ben Hermans should have made some kind of statement to explain what happened BEFORE the Amiga community found out and began this thread, but then he has never been accused of being the smartest man on the planet, or making the wisest business decisions, specially when it concerns public relations with this community.
Edit: What others wrote about the frequency of this type of thing happening with small companies is also very true, not that it justifies this type of behavior. I am sure it happens more often with companies that repeatedly run with a yearly loss, instead of a yearly profit, and I am pretty sure Hyperion's AmigaOS business loses money every year, though we may never see sales numbers and actual business expenses to prove this one way or the other.
Post by: matthey on February 18, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;784717
I just bought a new-ish Camaro and gave my oldest son the 97 Firebird I've been driving forever.
After having the car for two days (tonight) he calls me and says that "there was a loud noise so I pulled over and when I put it in park, it still rolls".
He's broken either a u-joint (I hope) or the drive shaft or something. Not sure which yet.
I just now got it towed back home, so now I know what I'm doing for the weekend.:pint:
The Firebird sounds as broke as Hyperion. Otherwise automatics won't roll in park. You better hope it is something between the tranny and diff or it's going to be expensive. I hope you show your son how to work on it for next time he goes on a a test drive. Make sure he can at least change all the spark plugs. I had a mechanic friend with an earlier LT1 manual Firebird and there was one spark plug that he never changed because he couldn't (from the bottom with several swivels). Maybe GM fixed that problem but then again we are talking about GM. They are to engineering as Hyperion is to software development. See, we can stay on topic ;).
Quote from: danbeaver;784742
There is nothing sweeter than the sound of a 427 Chevy engine with mechanical lifters and a tri-barrel carb at idle.
I've heard the rhythmic lope and hollow rumble of exhausts of various sweet sounding V8s as I live in the Midwest (I've even driven a few). However, not many people have heard the sound of an 80ci 2 rotor sequential twin turbocharged Wankel with titanium exhaust easing into WOT at mid-rpm in 3rd gear. First comes the sound of the aluminum intake sucking in air and the rpm wanting to go higher as the sound becomes something like a propellor plane taking off. As I reach WOT, the torque that sneeks up on the passenger can be felt in the lower stomach and some murmer an expletive as they reach for whatever they can hold on to. The exhaust now sounds like a hornets nest trapped in the titanium but smooths out into one deep take-off pitch that is loud but not too loud. Let off and the swush of the blow off valves can be heard. Fun, but now lets try it on some twisty country backroads. My car is a silver base model '93 Mazda RX-7 with bolt-ons. Unlike Hyperion, I enjoy diversity and choice which is a better business strategy than going bankrupt with one processor for a nich upper class market. See, our car conversation is on topic again.
Post by: A6000 on February 18, 2015, 07:20:25 PM
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 18, 2015, 07:49:14 PM
I had an RX-7 for a while. Think it was an '82, with the 70CID Wankel engine and a massive Holley 4 barrel carburetor on top. I swear the carb was bigger than the engine. Had about 180,000 miles on it and the apex seals leaked like a sieve, had to take the plugs out and clean them every time I wanted to start the POS. I wear size 13W boots, and the toe of my boot would get caught underneath the dashboard every time I wanted to change gears. Traded that sucker for my 1970 Olds '98 convertible, that I used to have. ;)
GM transverse-mounted, V6, front wheel drive engines of the mid to late '80s were the worst, we'd change the three plugs on the front and leave the three on the back, could never reach those suckers with with all the swivels in the world. Figured half a tuneup was better than none! I, too, know the pain of working on Firebirds. It was always the one plug back near the AC vent box. Impossible! :(
I'm excited about the new Breaking Bad spinoff, "Better Call Saul". Every time I think of Ben Hermans I'm going to think of Saul, from now on!
Also, I don't know what the reader or member levels of amiga.org are compared to amigaworld.net, or EAB, or that German forum, or what-have-you, but it seems really dumb that Hyperion doesn't have at least some kind of "official" presence on this site. They could clear things up really easily if they wanted to. Then again, they are lawyers! ;)
Post by: Kremlar on February 18, 2015, 08:04:12 PM
Had a '94 RX-7 TT for a few years in 2005 or so, weekend driver. What an amazing car! Had always wanted one and was in heaven when I finally got one. Flew out to Ohio to purchase and drove it back. I always thought what attracted me to the rotary is what attracted me to the Amiga when I was younger.
Now I'm a Jeep guy but have a '92 300ZX TT for the occasional weekend drive. Don't like it as much as my old RX-7, but I do enjoy it - especially the t-tops.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 18, 2015, 08:04:19 PM
Quote from: A6000;784790
All these posters in love with cars yet no-one wanted an electric car forum, very odd.
I'm not really interested in current electric cars, but old and current gasoline cars appeal to me, much like old, accessible computers as opposed to OS 4.1 on custom hardware.
Neither Tesla nor Hyperion really get any money from me. To me, the price of entry is too high to justify the limited range of use.
Muscle cars have an emotional attachment for me that is very similar to Amigas.
I'll dump money into a classic car that will never handle or accelerate as well as a Tesla, but a Tesla just doesn't do it for me emotionally.
My new-ish Camaro is sort of like MorphOS. It's not a real classic, but the performance is better, it's comfortable, it tries to resemble a classic and it's affordable.
Post by: danbeaver on February 18, 2015, 08:58:44 PM
Post by: eliyahu on February 18, 2015, 09:26:14 PM
guys, i know you're having a good time, but we're starting to get complaints about all of the car-talk in this thread. please open a new thread to continue, but further posts need to be on the subject of the thread. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 18, 2015, 09:31:08 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784811
@thread
guys, i know you're having a good time, but we're starting to get complaints about all of the car-talk in this thread. please open a new thread to continue, but further posts need to be on the subject of the thread. :)
-- eliyahu
Sorry, I just thought it was funny that it went that direction.
It's nice that discussion of an Amiga related legal matter hasn't turned into a flame and speculation nightmare though.
That was more unexpected than the car talk.
Post by: QuikSanz on February 18, 2015, 09:36:49 PM
Post by: Rob on February 18, 2015, 10:12:17 PM
Quote from: eliyahu;784811
@thread
guys, i know you're having a good time, but we're starting to get complaints about all of the car-talk in this thread. please open a new thread to continue, but further posts need to be on the subject of the thread. :)
-- eliyahu
As Manu said, the discussion is in wait and see mode now. The only real meat of the discussion is that Hyperion have been declared bankrupt and are appealing that decision.
There's no real further discussion until we hear that either the appeal was successful or failed.
Post by: Glittering on February 21, 2015, 02:03:16 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;783923
Well, that is certainly good news. Maybe the Amiga has a chance now...
Exactly and lets be honest here. Amiga Inc, Hyperion and the rest of those amateurs have done nothing positive whatsoever with the Amiga platform and its not like they haven't had chance after chance handed to them on a silver platter but chose to ignore them.
The real people who've hurt the Amiga over the years are not only the above mentioned amateurs but the actual die hard fans who (happily) played their part with going along with EVERYTHING that was (clearly) damaging to the Amiga.........Whilst the ones who was actually trying to get common sense into the users and amateur companies was attacked and labelled as trolls etc.
I'm glad I bought Amiga Forever (and for only a fiver).
Post by: utri007 on February 21, 2015, 02:11:45 PM
So there is many opinions and it is annnoyning when some people say their own opinions as a general fact.
Post by: Nlandas on February 21, 2015, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;783914
i have just read that on amiga-news:
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/de/insolvenz/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
in english:
http://www.faillissementsdossier.be/en/bankruptcy/1039367/hyperion-entertainment-cvba.aspx
Hyperion is bankrupt?
I have been praying that someone who remains with rights to the OS I.P. would come to their senses and Open Source AmigaOS. If we can build a community of developers behind the code based on the original source perhaps someday we can get it ported to x86. Yes, I know AROS has been working steadily on an x86 Amiga-compatible OS but this would be based on the actual source code and the work already done on 4.
I know we all have different ideas of what Amiga is/was but I really miss a lot of what AmigaOS had to offer and my monthly A1200 fix will only last so long. For the longest time I hoped for an x86 port with PCI AGA card but with how fast brute force processors have gotten emulation might be able to offer an abstraction layer to play older games within a new x86 OS.
I'd rather run the OS native and emulate the chipsets than emulate the whole OS and hardware. I'm probably a very, very small minority though and many will just say - run AROS.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 03:13:07 PM
Quote
would come to their senses and Open Source AmigaOS
impossible as it has been told 1000 times, so why are you still praying?
Quote
Yes, I know AROS has been working steadily on an x86 Amiga-compatible OS but this would be based on the actual source code and the work already done on 4.
what is that "work already done on os4" that are you missing with aros? actually aros misses some optimiztation on 68k still it runs better under uae than os4.
arguing like that you sound definitely like you were effectively one of those "name followers".
Post by: alphadec on February 21, 2015, 03:14:27 PM
Quote from: Nlandas;785035
I'd rather run the OS native and emulate the chipsets than emulate the whole OS and hardware. I'm probably a very, very small minority though and many will just say - run AROS.
I totaly agree.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 03:16:08 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785037
I totaly agree.
you can run aros on actual hardware. not emulated. not even on ppc. actually i think you can already run aros on fcpga acellerator for a600.
Post by: alphadec on February 21, 2015, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785038
you can run aros on actual hardware. not emulated. not even on ppc. actually i think you can already run aros on fcpga acellerator for a600.
I have tried aros, but it is not TRUE AmigaOS.
Post by: Manu on February 21, 2015, 04:01:25 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785041
i have tried aros, but it is not true amigaos.
roflol!!!!
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785041
I have tried aros, but it is not TRUE AmigaOS.
another name victim. alright.
Post by: Boot_WB on February 21, 2015, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785041
I have tried aros, but it is not TRUE AmigaOS.
I think we've all been there.
Which of the following is closest to how you see it:
TRUE AmigaOS lives on with AmigaOS4.x, despite there being no corporate or developer continuation from the previous version (3.9) because its based on the same sources.. except the kernel and some other stuff.
TRUE AmigaOS died with 3.x, since that's the end of 68k hardware support commodore and the original development team (in any form).
TRUE AmigaOS is about the filesystem layout, the cli, how the kernel works, the user experience, the application frameworks, the gui, etc.
TRUE AmigaOS is trapped in Amber since the day Commodore closed its doors.
Or
The idea of which is the TRUE AmigaOS is kinda silly ~20 years after the platform died. Use what you enjoy using, avoid that which you don't. :)
Post by: SpeedGeek on February 21, 2015, 05:01:36 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;784813
Sorry. Please consider the thread abandonware.
Unless, Hyperion somehow manages to survive this bankruptcy action, the most probable future of OS4.x is abandonware! :D
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2015, 05:09:21 PM
Quote from: Boot_WB;785047
TRUE AmigaOS is trapped in Amber since the day Commodore closed its doors.
Or
The idea of which is the TRUE AmigaOS is kinda silly ~20 years after the platform died.
None of the above. It is kind of silly trying to revive a ~20 year old system by trying to implement a lookalike on a similarly dead hardware platform. Take AmigaOs as it is: An operating system oldtimer that requires - like an old car - quite a bit of maintenance to keep it running, and that is fun to ride with on weekends just for the matter of itself. Everything else is, IMHO, just ignoring the facts. I find it "fascinating" that some parties consider this platform economically viable beyond that and consider the old 68K hardware a competitor, but maybe that's only me.
Post by: Glittering on February 21, 2015, 05:17:57 PM
Quote from: utri007;785033
I'm very happy with my Amiga OS4.1 machine, so Hyoerion has made some positive things. Amiga OS4 is very faithfull for original OS.
Have they really? I thought a business was about getting new people to your products and to make money but in Amigaland it has always been the complete opposite......Every single Amiga product which has been positive in getting fresh blood has been destroyed in favour of catering to the small tiny vocal community, who do not want change (even when it has such a detrimental effect on their favourite platform).
The die hard users will never admit that they played a major part in the continued downfall and sure you are in your elite club with a couple of hundred users etc, however was shutting the doors on potential new users worth it? In the Amiga community, the answer is yes.
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2015, 06:34:59 PM
Quote from: Glittering;785055
Have they really? I thought a business was about getting new people to your products and to make money but in Amigaland it has always been the complete opposite......Every single Amiga product which has been positive in getting fresh blood has been destroyed in favour of catering to the small tiny vocal community, who do not want change.
Let's think about what the Amiga market is, and what it isn't. What I don't understand is that some parties still seem to believe that AmigaOs (or whatever you call it today) can compete to mainstream computing, and act as if they are on par with Microsoft or Apple. However, such times are long gone, a long time ago, and there is not enough man power, not enough users and not enough market share to make this realistic. Actually, the whole computing marked is driving away from desktop machines, or rather, had made this transition already a couple of years ago.
If you want a higher market share, you should understand the market. The Amiga market (if there is such a thing) is no longer defined by competative hardware and multimedia experience like it was years ago. Any attempt to do so means running behind a market that is long gone.
The platform is how CBM left it 20 years ago, and people keep this hardware because they enjoyed exactly that, and not rebuilds that try to immitate the same user experience on similar exotic, but still outdated hardware. In fact, if you would want only that, one can simulate the same user experience, and more computing power without all the expensive exotic hardware on mainstream PCs, only for a fraction of the investment.
So, finally, what is Amiga and what isn't? It is the same freaking oldtimer it was 20 years ago. That stuff can be modernized, slightly, for the joy of it. That is, actually, a small niche market in the same sense rebuilding old cars is a small niche market. Trying to change this definition means just ignoring the situation.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 06:58:09 PM
Post by: OlafS3 on February 21, 2015, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785041
I have tried aros, but it is not TRUE AmigaOS.
not TRUE Amiga? Why? Explain it to me because I honestly do not understand
i use lots of Amiga software on it (Aros 68k)
here is a comparation of intuition on 3.5 / AROS / AmigaOS 4.X
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/intuition.html
if you compare you see that AROS implements almost 100% of 3.5
So what is not "true" there?
Post by: alphadec on February 21, 2015, 07:17:54 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785066
The platform is how CBM left it 20 years ago.
And why is that. ?
Amiga have had one problem from day one, and that is incompetent people running the company. The technical people was more like wizards but those who was to sell it, directors/ceo, etc was complete idiots. All they wanted was fast pay back and when that did not happen they did bled the company dry until it was dead.
Now 28 years after cbm closed the doors there is amazingly still users who still are using this computer in fact maybe the best computer ever made on zero budget.
And what is the amiga marked today. ?
It is two parts. The first is a company who makes linux/clones with a amiga layer and they call it amigaone. And these are so expensive and so faraway from what amiga was.
Part two: Take any other computer and tell me what other users starts to make a clone (fpga) and operating system. So this is the future for amiga platform since there is no vision for those who holds the rights. SO our only future is you and me the users to pick up what commodore did'nt want or could do.
I believe in the users and I dont think this computer will ever die.
Post by: Niding on February 21, 2015, 07:20:29 PM
Just like me, I stick to AOS 3.x on my A1200 for no other reason its the OS I used in the 90s.
I have no rational reason for not switching to AROS, its just lazyness and nostalgica Id say (on my own part).
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 07:33:58 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785071
And what is the amiga marked today. ?
depends how you twist he meaning of "amiga". still if you allow amigaone hardware then you must allow aros and morphos as well along the fpga projects, which btw, do not claim the name.
Quote
I believe in the users and I dont think this computer will ever die.
im with you on that.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 21, 2015, 07:42:29 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785066
So, finally, what is Amiga and what isn't? It is the same freaking oldtimer it was 20 years ago. That stuff can be modernized, slightly, for the joy of it. That is, actually, a small niche market in the same sense rebuilding old cars is a small niche market. Trying to change this definition means just ignoring the situation.
I feel the same way, it's a hobby and there is a little money to be made in the market, but don't expect to get rich from it or take over the world.
I've never understood why the push to develop exclusively on PPC when there are still users clamoring for 68k upgrades and bug fixes.
I understand that there's a market for a next gen Amiga. I get that. But why kill off the existing market? Why double-down on yet another failing CPU after the writing was on the wall (over 10 years ago)?
I'd pay for an updated 680x0 OS, yet that's not an option. They had an existing customer base, but ignored it in favor of moving them out of "old classic cars" and into cars designed for use ten years ago instead.
The business model makes no sense in that context, does it?
There has been a market here all along, but it's not the market they want, so they left the money on the table.
Post by: guest11527 on February 21, 2015, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785071
And why is that. ?
Because if Amiga had adapted to its market, it would have been something different already 20 years ago from what you know now from a 20 year old Amiga.
Quote from: alphadec;785071
Amiga have had one problem from day one, and that is incompetent people running the company. The technical people was more like wizards but those who was to sell it, directors/ceo, etc was complete idiots. All they wanted was fast pay back and when that did not happen they did bled the company dry until it was dead.
I don't think it is quite that simple. CBM was becoming big with a simple concept: Sell technology as cheap as possible. What finally broke their neck is that competing technology became available for much better prices (the PC) and they have not had the money - due to their strategy - to invest it into the product. That is, CBM made the failure not to adapt to the changing conditions in the computer market, and they tried to continue with a concept that no longer worked. At a certain time, the chances for custom hardware were simply over, and IBM (back then) could sell "professional" machines just by their brand name. CBM never established a professional brand.
Ironically, I see the same here today again: The market is migrating away from desktop PCs, to wearables and smartphones, and still some folks believe the Os experience alone is good enough to sell non-compatible hardware. Amiga is a vintage market, not a frontier market as it used to be. That's a completely different situation.
Quote from: alphadec;785071
Now 28 years after cbm closed the doors there is amazingly still users who still are using this computer in fact maybe the best computer ever made on zero budget."Using" and "using" are two completely different things here. 20 years ago, people "used" the Amiga to solve their problems, i.e. gaming, a bit of programming, a bit of word processing, a hobby product for everyone. "Using" nowadays is rather a vintage experience of its own. If I want to play a recent game, I get a game console or a PC. If I want to play a *vintage game*, I get an Amiga. That's an important difference.
Quote from: alphadec;785071
And what is the amiga marked today. ?Yes, but what's the use case and which needs does this machine address? It is not computing power (it is slow compared to a PC), it is not game or software experience (as there is almost no original software), it is not vintage (it is relatively new, with a new Os) so what is it? I don't get it, seriously.
It is two parts. The first is a company who makes linux/clones with a amiga layer and they call it amigaone. And these are so expensive and so faraway from what amiga was.
Quote from: alphadec;785071
Part two: Take any other computer and tell me what other users starts to make a clone (fpga) and operating system. So this is the future for amiga platform since there is no vision for those who holds the rights. SO our only future is you and me the users to pick up what commodore did'nt want or could do.
I believe in the users and I dont think this computer will ever die.
The problem with "users" is that it is a heterogeneous group, a group that will not define (by itself) a common direction or strategy for a product, like a company could. Besides, the users have no "assets" in the sense that there is a common pool for software, hardware or knowledge. It is fragmented.
There are companies out there that could, and that define strategies or visions. However, strategies or visions I fail to understand.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: Niding;785072
Im sure "true" can be changed for "familiar OS based on nostalgica" ;)
Just like me, I stick to AOS 3.x on my A1200 for no other reason its the OS I used in the 90s.
I have no rational reason for not switching to AROS, its just lazyness and nostalgica Id say (on my own part).
well, i must give you that, you actually have a reason not to switch to aros on amiga hardware currently as it is still less responsible than the genuine os. and it lacks some soft and hardware support. therefore i run hd-rec still under 3.9. aros is though potentially a good and compatible os replacement/improvement and one that reacts to users most, closest to crowd funding initiative, so if the user base actually builds up some tension, it may have some effect it wouldnt have elsewhere.
Post by: Boot_WB on February 21, 2015, 09:30:53 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785054
None of the above. It is kind of silly trying to revive a ~20 year old system by trying to implement a lookalike on a similarly dead hardware platform. Take AmigaOs as it is: An operating system oldtimer that requires - like an old car - quite a bit of maintenance to keep it running, and that is fun to ride with on weekends just for the matter of itself. Everything else is, IMHO, just ignoring the facts.
Heh, should have added 'other' at least. :)
Quote
I find it "fascinating" that some parties consider this platform economically viable beyond that and consider the old 68K hardware a competitor, but maybe that's only me.
Not sure anyone 'competes' with 68k (aka The Amiga), people use what they use, not much market to compete in beyond that i suspect. As you say, you can make a nice living restoring classic cars, but it's a similarly small market that is limited by demand.
Post by: Djole on February 21, 2015, 09:38:33 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785077
I'd pay for an updated 680x0 OS, yet that's not an option. They had an existing customer base, but ignored it in favor of moving them out of "old classic cars" and into cars designed for use ten years ago instead.
The business model makes no sense in that context, does it?
There has been a market here all along, but it's not the market they want, so they left the money on the table.
I would also pay for an "official" update of 68k OS3.9. It has the largest user base and could be made very usable on fast FPGA accelerators that are around the corner.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 09:44:48 PM
Quote from: Djole;785088
I would also pay for an "official" update of 68k OS3.9. It has the largest user base and could be made very usable on fast FPGA accelerators that are around the corner.
pay whom and for what is the question.
Post by: Djole on February 21, 2015, 09:57:34 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785089
pay whom and for what is the question.
I wouldn't care much who made it, whoever has the rights to do so. There is much room for improvement in 68k OS3.9. OS 3.9 (and 3.5) was made after Commodore and most of users consider them as official update for AmigaOS do why not make 3.9.1.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 21, 2015, 10:04:52 PM
Quote from: Djole;785090
I wouldn't care much who made it, whoever has the rights to do so. There is much room for improvement in 68k OS3.9. OS 3.9 (and 3.5) was made after Commodore and most of users consider them as official update for AmigaOS do why not make 3.9.1.
How about a ROM that can find a CDRom to boot so I can ditch my slowly decaying boot floppies?
An OS that has Thors updates to layers?
All those improvements that are in OS4 only that just need to be compiled for 68k?
Picasso96 officially built in with the improvements in OS4?
There are a ton of things that could be done without a huge investment if someone had the rights to do so.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 10:07:25 PM
Quote
I wouldn't care much who made it,i would, because of track of record, expected support, that kind of things, also the circumstances should be fair. so far yu have your unofficial boing bags you can enjoy. i think ist as far as it gets within limits, im not sure what else to demand, than that the community takes their issues in their own hands, like that:
Quote
most of users consider them as official update for AmigaOS do why not make 3.9.1.so, its there, just in form of patches and not as official as few would like. consider this an obstacle thrown in your way. whose fault is this?
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785091
How about a ROM that can find a CDRom to boot so I can ditch my slowly decaying boot floppies?
An OS that has Thors updates to layers?
All those improvements that are in OS4 only that just need to be compiled for 68k?
Picasso96 officially built in with the improvements in OS4?
There are a ton of things that could be done without a huge investment if someone had the rights to do so.
aros kick can boot from had or cd. otherwise i would be grateful to have this all improvements without being forced to use reimplemented wheel. we can complain in the open, but what does that change?
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 21, 2015, 10:45:15 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785092
so, its there, just in form of patches and not as official as few would like. consider this an obstacle thrown in your way. whose fault is this?
My original point was that there were avenues to making a little money that have been written off.
It just seems incomprehensible that 68k users were only seen as a pool of users to court as opposed to addressing their needs.
It's like making them come to you vs. going to them.
Post by: wawrzon on February 21, 2015, 11:05:32 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785097
My original point was that there were avenues to making a little money that have been written off.
It just seems incomprehensible that 68k users were only seen as a pool of users to court as opposed to addressing their needs.
It's like making them come to you vs. going to them.
to be blunt, the amiga users were seen as a pool to recruit os4 users or get lost.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 21, 2015, 11:37:54 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785091
How about a ROM that can find a CDRom to boot so I can ditch my slowly decaying boot floppies?
An OS that has Thors updates to layers?
All those improvements that are in OS4 only that just need to be compiled for 68k?
Picasso96 officially built in with the improvements in OS4?
There are a ton of things that could be done without a huge investment if someone had the rights to do so.
I read a discussion where someone asked one of the Friedens to compile Warp3D for 68k. The answer was: "I could but I do not. Buy AmigaOS then you have it". That is the attitude. They see the 68k community as a ressource for potential buyers of their expensive hardware/OS packs. If you want a 68k OS that can replace Amiga OS in future then support AROS.
Post by: amigakit on February 22, 2015, 12:43:43 AM
A-EON owns Warp3D now. I know upgrading it for 68k would be something of interest. All of A-EON's new software technologies developed will be back ported to AmigaOS 3 if the hardware can support it.
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2015, 01:14:56 AM
Quote from: amigakit;785109
@Olafs3
A-EON owns Warp3D now. I know upgrading it for 68k would be something of interest. All of A-EON's new software technologies developed will be back ported to AmigaOS 3 if the hardware can support it.
yes i think everybody would have guessed, after numerous hints...
it would have been the right thing to do in the late years of last decade, when still some simple open software could be ported to this, gaining some public attention. but are you sure its worth the investment today? especially there is wazp3d, open, free of charge and concerning the circumstances, rather tested? warp3d in my humble opinion is today a legacy issue, a standard, that might have been followed if it had succeed, but on low level basis has been implemented in user unfriendly outdated way. its success on amiga is limited by what it has beenn able to gather on os4 and it doesnt seem to be much. we were asking for w3d radeon drivers for years in order just to keep the standard going. it isnt your fault this has been refused and i dont blame the coders who wouldnt do to do that for free, but this is the effect, as correctly recognized by those who wanted to declare it obsolete, since it failed to catch ground.
Post by: matthey on February 22, 2015, 07:39:53 AM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785091
How about a ROM that can find a CDRom to boot so I can ditch my slowly decaying boot floppies?
And has HD support for >4GB hard drives.
Quote from: amigakit;785109
A-EON owns Warp3D now. I know upgrading it for 68k would be something of interest. All of A-EON's new software technologies developed will be back ported to AmigaOS 3 if the hardware can support it.
Did somebody pick up some toys at Hyperion's garage sale or should we say fire sale? It makes me wonder if Hyperion is just a shell to maintain a license agreement for A-Eon, not that I would complain if that was the case. If Trevor is more clever than Hyerion, he would back port Warp3D and Reaction to the 68k and license to users for free to proliferate these APIs, ease porting between AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOS 3 and increase software development. It would sure make our job of getting NetSurf running on AmigaOS 3 easier. I know a thing or two about Warp3D that might be useful too ;).
Post by: guest11527 on February 22, 2015, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Boot_WB;785087
Not sure anyone 'competes' with 68k (aka The Amiga), people use what they use, not much market to compete in beyond that i suspect. As you say, you can make a nice living restoring classic cars, but it's a similarly small market that is limited by demand.
Well, apparently, Hyperion sees the 68K as competitor to their PPC machines, i.e. block development on 68K to drive PPC. I believe this is not a very wise decision. You cannot behave as if you are the new Microsoft and at the same time see 68K as competitor. If you want the former, you should create more powerful machines, more powerful than PPC can deliver.
Instead, Hyperion is stuck between two fronts, the PC machines that are lightyears ahead of everything they do, and the 68K "oldtimer" users that have a PC anyhow and don't need a "slow incompatible" PPC. Doing so is not only ignoring the market, it is also just ignoring a good part of the potential customer basis for products that could be developed jointly on both platforms; then finally, let the user basis decide which system they want to invest to, and take the money from both groups. That would IMHO be a much smarter decision because you have much more room to "navigate" your company in.
Post by: alphadec on February 22, 2015, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785135
Well, apparently, Hyperion sees the 68K as competitor to their PPC machines, i.e. block development on 68K to drive PPC. I believe this is not a very wise decision. You cannot behave as if you are the new Microsoft and at the same time see 68K as competitor. If you want the former, you should create more powerful machines, more powerful than PPC can deliver.
And this is the reason why I think those who want to make a amiga fpga have so much problems. There have been many tempts that could have given us a amazing amiga 68k, like.
- Tina
- Natami
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2015, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785109
@Olafs3
A-EON owns Warp3D now. I know upgrading it for 68k would be something of interest. All of A-EON's new software technologies developed will be back ported to AmigaOS 3 if the hardware can support it.
I talked here about attitude of Hyperion how I have read it. I know that Amigakit thinks different there.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2015, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: alphadec;785140
And this is the reason why I think those who want to make a amiga fpga have so much problems. There have been many tempts that could have given us a amazing amiga 68k, like.
- Tina
- Natami
these projects are different from f.e. the apollo project. Behind Apollo there is a group of people not just Gunnar how some think. And it has a realistic approach using existing hardware instead trying to make a custom one. That are the differences to Natami, in reality just one developer using custom (and thus expensive) hardware. Too much for one. Tina, I do not know. It was a hardware without any VHDL-Developer so it never was more than a idea.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2015, 12:29:35 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785109
@Olafs3
A-EON owns Warp3D now. I know upgrading it for 68k would be something of interest. All of A-EON's new software technologies developed will be back ported to AmigaOS 3 if the hardware can support it.
Is it perhaps possible that we come to a kind of cooperation between Aros camp and Aeon/Amigakit? Perhaps that it would be possible to use developments from you in my distribution and you using Aros developments on your side? I think it would be benficial for both sides.
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2015, 12:39:48 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785135
Well, apparently, Hyperion sees the 68K as competitor to their PPC machines, i.e. block development on 68K to drive PPC. I believe this is not a very wise decision. You cannot behave as if you are the new Microsoft and at the same time see 68K as competitor. If you want the former, you should create more powerful machines, more powerful than PPC can deliver.
Instead, Hyperion is stuck between two fronts, the PC machines that are lightyears ahead of everything they do, and the 68K "oldtimer" users that have a PC anyhow and don't need a "slow incompatible" PPC. Doing so is not only ignoring the market, it is also just ignoring a good part of the potential customer basis for products that could be developed jointly on both platforms; then finally, let the user basis decide which system they want to invest to, and take the money from both groups. That would IMHO be a much smarter decision because you have much more room to "navigate" your company in.
psst! dont tell them. they might reconsider. then what?
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2015, 12:40:40 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785152
psst! Dont tell them. They might reconsider. Then what?
lol
Post by: amigakit on February 22, 2015, 12:41:23 PM
I personally would very much like to see Radeon R200 support available for Classic AmigaOS 3 on the Mediator. If you have a proposal so we can support that, I will be very much interested.
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2015, 12:43:17 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;785151
Is it perhaps possible that we come to a kind of cooperation between Aros camp and Aeon/Amigakit? Perhaps that it would be possible to use developments from you in my distribution and you using Aros developments on your side? I think it would be benficial for both sides.
aros has wazp3d in their contribs. it doesnt work well with 68k but you can substitute it with the original wazp from aminet with no problem. on x86 there isnt any w3d software available. nor would that make sense, because mesa can be used directly. what w3d software would you want to port to aros?
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2015, 12:47:27 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785154
@Olafs3
I personally would very much like to see Radeon R200 support available for Classic AmigaOS 3 on the Mediator. If you have a proposal so we can support that, I will be very much interested.
i assume you talk about w3d driver for radeon 9xxx since 2d is already supported by elbox as you sure know. well, you can certainly port it from os4. i dont know what else would there be to propose.
Post by: amigakit on February 22, 2015, 12:54:52 PM
Post by: OlafS3 on February 22, 2015, 01:17:31 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785157
Yes I am referring to 3D support. Does Aros support Mediator ?
on the support page it is mentioning it "untested"
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/68k_support
it seems so:
http://repo.or.cz/w/AROS.git?a=search&h=8107c280c9c18311144c7d542293ecc4d88468d4&st=commit&s=mediator
I have searched for Mediator in Aros commits and there are 68k related hits
there is also a thread where terminills asked if someone has Mediator:
http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35876&forum=25&17
it is the same time as commits so I assume it was to test if it works
Post by: wawrzon on February 22, 2015, 01:51:24 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785157
Yes I am referring to 3D support. Does Aros support Mediator ?
its a long time i have looked into that. afair there might have been some basic support, i recall that pci tool might have recognized the cards. but it wasnt complete and working, it lacked interrupts or so.
i can check it again, but why and what for do you need here aros at all?
Post by: Yasu on February 23, 2015, 07:30:17 PM
Remember, if HE goes down they will take with them a lot of debt. Debts Trevor has to pay off to get the OS. That sounds expensive. But if no one buys the whole company (who would besides Trevor?), the rights to the OS reverts to A Inc., then it must be in McEwans interest to sell the OS. Cloanto already got the original. And since there is only one realistic buyer A Inc. can't ask for too much.
So, instead of paying off a lot of debts, it might be cheaper to negotiate a transfer of IP rights with Amiga Inc. instead.
Thoughts?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 23, 2015, 07:50:56 PM
Quote from: Yasu;785239
So, instead of paying off a lot of debts, it might be cheaper to negotiate a transfer of IP rights with Amiga Inc. instead.
Except then you have to deal with McBill. Otherwise, a solid plan! :hammer:
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/610/825/eec.jpg)
Post by: Yasu on February 23, 2015, 08:02:58 PM
I forgot about all the parts that's not the property of Hyperion but the individual developers. But my bet is that they are willing to sell it for real money.
Post by: number6 on February 23, 2015, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: Yasu;785239
I just thought of something. Up until now we have all assumed that the best scenario of a bankruptsy is that A-Eon buys Hyperion upright in order for AOS4 not to return into A Inc.'s hands. But is that really the best scenario?
Remember, if HE goes down they will take with them a lot of debt. Debts Trevor has to pay off to get the OS. That sounds expensive. But if no one buys the whole company (who would besides Trevor?), the rights to the OS reverts to A Inc., then it must be in McEwans interest to sell the OS. Cloanto already got the original. And since there is only one realistic buyer A Inc. can't ask for too much.
So, instead of paying off a lot of debts, it might be cheaper to negotiate a transfer of IP rights with Amiga Inc. instead.
Thoughts?
Hard to say. Some people prefer being lied to by a lawyer. Some prefer being lied to by an owner.
Regardless, any such proposal should be sent to Darren B. Cohen.
http://www.reedsmith.com/darren_cohen/
#6
Post by: Nlandas on February 23, 2015, 08:27:18 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785036
impossible as it has been told 1000 times, so why are you still praying?
Do tell, it sounds like the IP to 3.1 is now held by Cloanto so why can't they choose to Open Source it?
Quote from: wawrzon;785036
i
what is that "work already done on os4" that are you missing with aros? actually aros misses some optimiztation on 68k still it runs better under uae than os4.
OS3.9/4 added different things to the 3.1 source. I'm not going to enumerate all of the changes here.
http://www.amigaos.net/content/1/features
Quote from: wawrzon;785036
arguing like that you sound definitely like you were effectively one of those "name followers".
I'm not certain what you mean by "name follower". I've played with AROS multiple times but not found it stable when I was testing it. I don't have anything against AROS but we are fragmenting into AROS, MorphOS, legacy 3.1, and 3.9/4.0.
I still maintain it would be nice to have an official Open Source AmigaOS/Workbench(don't care the name) project from the current I.P. holder. Perhaps, AROS could even benefit from access to the original source code itself.
BTW - Why the attack?
-Nyle
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 23, 2015, 08:42:05 PM
Open or not, unless you have a strong project leader, you're going to get people going off in left field doing crazy additional stuff that drags down the project and breaks compatibility.
With cash on the line, I think there is honestly more incentive to stay on track and produce something of value.
If someone can make a little money there, good for them, I'm willing to pay for quality work.
Also, I may be inferring too much, but it sounded like Cloanto only had access what was released by Commodore. To me, that seems like binaries, documentation and probably the NDK.
I never heard anything about Cloanto and source code.
Post by: alphadec on February 23, 2015, 08:57:29 PM
So what we need is new hardware. If there is not made any new amiga's the next 5 years I think we are in lots of problems. So someone better do something about this fast!.
My hope is there comes a fpga amiga or maybe a-eon could release some classic amigas built on new hardware with updated tech.
Post by: matthey on February 23, 2015, 09:20:27 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785154
I personally would very much like to see Radeon R200 support available for Classic AmigaOS 3 on the Mediator. If you have a proposal so we can support that, I will be very much interested.
A new AmigaOS 3 (and possibly later AROS) Warp3D Radeon driver would be great but the whole W3D software for AmigaOS 3 needs serious updating. Here is what is needed:
The Avenger (Voodoo 3) driver has a Z-buffer bug which overwrites innocent memory in a big way. The C generated CheckIdle() function is so slow it doesn't work right. The optimization level (NOP instructions in the code which flush the CPU pipeline for example) and floating-point rounding are very inefficient. The 6888x is not suppoted and the 68040 compiled driver traps on the 68060 which is very slow. The AmigaOS3 Avenger driver version lacks support for most Napalm (Voodoo 4-5) enhancements. I have free optimized assembler code available which would help the speed on the 68k.
The Permedia2 driver has a bug with floating point rounding modes which causes distorted or black colors for objects or even the whole screen (bright color values may wrap to dark). This was a compiler problem of GCC not initializing the FPU properly when the Permedia2 code was compiled. Karlos has an updated Permedia2 driver for W3D with more features added.
The 68k Warp3D library itself doesn't have too many bugs but suffers from serious optimization problems. I optimized it in assembler to nearly 1/2 the size with less than 1/2 the size being possible. With all my optimizations, I can get 25fps in GLQuake with 68060@75MHz and more is possible.
I would try to get Alain Thellier to work on an update (with the help and testing of others). He created Wazp3D and knows what he is doing. He could probably even make a software renderer for Warp3D which would be good. I would be willing to lend a hand myself so the same optimization disaster doesn't happen again.
Quote from: Yasu;785239
I just thought of something. Up until now we have all assumed that the best scenario of a bankruptsy is that A-Eon buys Hyperion upright in order for AOS4 not to return into A Inc.'s hands. But is that really the best scenario?
Remember, if HE goes down they will take with them a lot of debt. Debts Trevor has to pay off to get the OS. That sounds expensive. But if no one buys the whole company (who would besides Trevor?), the rights to the OS reverts to A Inc., then it must be in McEwans interest to sell the OS. Cloanto already got the original. And since there is only one realistic buyer A Inc. can't ask for too much.
So, instead of paying off a lot of debts, it might be cheaper to negotiate a transfer of IP rights with Amiga Inc. instead.
Thoughts?
The License between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion may no be transferable or at least a buyout would make the situation more complex. A-Eon would like to continue AmigaOS 4 development as it's needed for their hardware. If the debts aren't too large, the easiest solution may be for A-Eon to bail out Hyperion (probably becoming majority shareholder) and Hyperion becomes just a software development house for A-Eon and possibly a legal shell or zombie business. It wouldn't be a bad business arrangement as it could avoid costly legal costs and keep AmigaOS 4 out of the hands of the blood sucking criminals at Amiga Inc. A-Eon seems to be more friendly and open toward AmigaOS 3 which is a good strategy that could benefit AmigaOS 4 also. Honey attracts more Amiga users than vinegar.
Post by: Nlandas on February 23, 2015, 09:34:48 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785079
well, i must give you that, you actually have a reason not to switch to aros on amiga hardware currently as it is still less responsible than the genuine os. and it lacks some soft and hardware support. therefore i run hd-rec still under 3.9. aros is though potentially a good and compatible os replacement/improvement and one that reacts to users most, closest to crowd funding initiative, so if the user base actually builds up some tension, it may have some effect it wouldnt have elsewhere.
I've tried AROS multiple times over the years and even had a few friends who like alternative OSs play with it. It's a neat project but it might too benefit from access to the source code. Heck, perhaps the two projects could be melded into one project. I don't know how much of the AROS project being based on 3.1 would be possible to port into a new Open Source OS with the original 3.1 code as reference.
It certainly doesn't sound like it would hurt.
Post by: wawrzon on February 23, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
Quote from: Nlandas;785245
Do tell, it sounds like the IP to 3.1 is now held by Cloanto so why can't the Open Source it?
wanna approach them with that proposal?
Quote
OS3.9/4 added different things to the 3.1 source. I'm not going to enumerate all of the changes here.
http://www.amigaos.net/content/1/features
most of the changes are rather cosmetic, and aros incorporates comparable functionality anyway except of things like interfaces or so objects factualy dimnishing backwards compatibility.
Quote
I'm not certain what you mean by "name follower". I've played with AROS multiple times but not found it stable when I was testing it. I don't have anything against AROS but we are fragmenting into AROS, MorphOS, legacy 3.1, and 3.9/4.0.
the fragmentation is a fact we cant do anything about. whats up to everybody is to choose alternative that is most promising. while i dont resign on genuine os for my amigas for the time being i see no alternative to improve it without patching other than aros68k.
Quote
I still maintain it would be nice to have an official Open Source AmigaOS/Workbench(don't care the name) project from the current I.P. holder. Perhaps, AROS could even benefit from access to the original source code itself.
perhaps, but is is out of question, so why bother?
Quote
BTW - Why the attack?
-Nyle
sorry if being sharp. the owners or licensees of os4 stated repeatedly that open source is not an option. live with it, why return to it over and over?
Post by: Nlandas on February 23, 2015, 09:43:55 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785248
Open sourcing it might be nice, but I'd just like to see it being maintained and updated by professionals.
Open or not, unless you have a strong project leader, you're going to get people going off in left field doing crazy additional stuff that drags down the project and breaks compatibility.
Very, very true. I agree. However, if it's held by a small company with limited profit potential we end up with an orphaned product like 4.0. If it's Open Source the possibility always exists that an active project can start again even if one fails.
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785248
With cash on the line, I think there is honestly more incentive to stay on track and produce something of value.
If someone can make a little money there, good for them, I'm willing to pay for quality work.
Also, I may be inferring too much, but it sounded like Cloanto only had access what was released by Commodore. To me, that seems like binaries, documentation and probably the NDK.
I never heard anything about Cloanto and source code.
That might be possible though my impression was that Cloanto had the original I.P. from CBM just not the Trademarks. I would think that meant if they have the I.P. rights, they have the rights to the 3.1 OS and source code. They sounded like they didn't have 3.9 or 4.0 rights as those deals were separate. I too will pay for AmigaOS/Workbench but only IF, I can run it.
If an Open Source project existed that was active and working towards porting Workbench to multiple platforms and perhaps partnering with other projects or joining with them. I'd "buy" their project as well. I still think it would be nice to have someone like Cloanto as the final say on the Open Source project. In that sense an "official" original I.P. Source Code based project.
-Nyle
P.S. Thought it simply has to say AmigaOS though, I mean, I'm totally brand specific. Won't use anything else, well except for Windows, Linux(Unbuntu, SLES, etc.), Android, etc. I mean if it doesn't say Commodore and Amiga on it - well I just won't try it out. LOL!
Post by: wawrzon on February 23, 2015, 09:46:02 PM
Quote from: Nlandas;785258
I've tried AROS multiple times over the years and even had a few friends who like alternative OSs play with it. It's a neat project but it might too benefit from access to the source code. Heck, perhaps the two projects could be melded into one project. I don't know how much of the AROS project being based on 3.1 would be possible to port into a new Open Source OS with the original 3.1 code as reference.
It certainly doesn't sound like it would hurt.
aros is in many ways more advanced than os4. as example it has working gallium. if it does make sense on 68k is another matter, it doesnt fully work on this platform anyway.
gaining access to genuine 3.x sources might be nice but might be also a handicap. that ip is contaminated with complicated and uncertain ownership, which might pose a threat for an open project.
Post by: agami on February 23, 2015, 11:05:33 PM
Check you history; The entire source code for 3.x does not exist. It went missing somewhere in the Commodore labyrinth. This was one of the issues faced by the early AmigaOS 4 team. There was no "gold" code stored in a source repository. Bits and pieces here and there. Decompile this and reverse engineer that.
IP rights are exercised on products and not code. Even Copyright in most jurisdictions does not cover code effectively. Think of code as a recipe. Two developers may write different enough code to accomplish the same task.
Post by: matthey on February 23, 2015, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785248
Open sourcing it might be nice, but I'd just like to see it being maintained and updated by professionals.
Open or not, unless you have a strong project leader, you're going to get people going off in left field doing crazy additional stuff that drags down the project and breaks compatibility.
I tend to agree as AROS is open source and hasn't replaced 68k AmigaOS 3. Several of the current 68k developers are around and could continue organized development instead of throwing development into a state of chaos and uncertainty. The best would be if the AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOS 3 developers could share code and try to maintain similar APIs where possible. One could argue for bringing AmigaOS 4 to the 68k which is a bit heavy but could be done. AmigaOS 4 needs to move toward 64 bit, memory protection, more security, SMP etc. (workstation, server and business stuff) which is not the greatest fit for the 68k unless we made an ASIC. AmigaOS 3 is probably best as an efficient and compact "fun" but still useful AmigaOS for small computers, old and retro computers, hobbyists, electronic gadgets, netbooks and maybe some embedded purposes. If both groups of developers were allowed to create freely but share code, I think there would be mutual benefits like faster development and bug fixing.
Quote from: agami;785266
In order to open source Amiga OS 3.x one would need the source.
Check you history; The entire source code for 3.x does not exist. It went missing somewhere in the Commodore labyrinth. This was one of the issues faced by the early AmigaOS 4 team. There was no "gold" code stored in a source repository. Bits and pieces here and there. Decompile this and reverse engineer that.
Most of it exists and is available. ThoR and Olaf "olsen" Barthel are active on the forum here. ThoR claims he knows how to contact Heinze Wrobel also. There is the AROS code to look at if anything is missing. We need to either get AmigaOS 3 back or fix AROS up for the 68k.
Post by: wawrzon on February 24, 2015, 12:06:57 AM
Quote from: matthey;785269
We need to either get AmigaOS 3 back or fix AROS up for the 68k.
first one isnt an option, and second one is always being dismissed with disinterest, so it isnt looking good.
Post by: Hans_ on February 24, 2015, 12:21:22 AM
Quote from: agami;785266
In order to open source Amiga OS 3.x one would need the source.
Check you history; The entire source code for 3.x does not exist. It went missing somewhere in the Commodore labyrinth. This was one of the issues faced by the early AmigaOS 4 team. There was no "gold" code stored in a source repository. Bits and pieces here and there. Decompile this and reverse engineer that.
That's not completely true. AFAIK, parts of the source code for AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 weren't available to the AmigaOS 4 team (e.g., the fancy CD player, updated installer), but the source code for AmigaOS 3.1 was.
Here's a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJ1TlQwLTs) generated from the AmigaOS source-code repository showing development from AmigaOS 1.0 in 1985 through to AmigaOS 4.1 update 2 in 2010. Clearly Commodore's source code repository did survive its demise.
Hans
Post by: guest11527 on February 24, 2015, 07:31:35 AM
Quote from: agami;785266
In order to open source Amiga OS 3.x one would need the source.
Check you history; The entire source code for 3.x does not exist.
This is certainly not true. It exists in a repository Olsen has, and a couple of people have copies of the repository.
But that is not even the problem. The problem is that Hyperion sees attempts to update the legacy 68K version as competitions to their own Amiga Os 4.0 - instead of a complementary extension of their product portfolio. That's part of the story I don't get, but then again, I don't have to finance it (but then again, I wasn't declared bankrupt either.).
Post by: ppcamiga1 on February 24, 2015, 08:26:52 AM
060 is a 486 class processor, and without ppc graphics speed is comparable with 486 vlb.
(if you spend 400 EURO for PCI plus Radeon, without PCI graphics is even worse).
Optimizations for 68k crap are pointless.
classic amiga really needs cpu better than 68k.
without changing cpu to better than 68k classic amiga nothing will help.
Making software for this crap is simply stupid.
Decision to not suport 68k crap was very wise.
ppc is ofcourse fully compatybilne with 68k.
choice ppc only was a very good decision.
Post by: Linde on February 24, 2015, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.As opposed to Classic Amiga with PPC? Last I checked I could get a 68k Amiga for ~50 euros. How much is a PowerPC accelerator again? How does it compare to much cheaper and more modern processors? Wouldn't you be paying tons of money to do what, run quake and decode mp2 video?
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga really needs cpu better than 68k.For what? Running modern games? Modern browsers? Nope. To maintain the highest level of compatibility, a 68k processor is exactly what it needs. If you want a modern platform, you are not very smart to even consider classic Amiga.
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
ppc is ofcourse fully compatybilne with 68k.No.
Post by: alphadec on February 24, 2015, 09:38:23 AM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
choice ppc only was a very good decision.
Making all amiga software incompatible on new amigaone sounds like a fantastic idea.
Post by: guest11527 on February 24, 2015, 10:17:01 AM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.Let's now be a bit realistic. PPC is not exactly available at budget prices either, and not exactly on par with the x86/x64 processors anyhow.
060 is a 486 class processor, and without ppc graphics speed is comparable with 486 vlb.
If you want to go for budget hardware, I would strongly argue that AmigaOs should be ported to mainstream hardware.
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
Decision to not suport 68k crap was very wise.It could have been, if mainstream hardware had been selected. Which was exactly not what happened. I wouldn't call this a "wise" decision. There are actually two realistic markets: Either go for powerful mainstream hardware, which is certainly not PPC, or go for the vintage market, which is not PPC either.
After all, this doesn't sound so wise to me.
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
ppc is ofcourse fully compatybilne with 68k.Did I miss something or are you living on another planet than I do?
Post by: OlafS3 on February 24, 2015, 10:58:23 AM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.
060 is a 486 class processor, and without ppc graphics speed is comparable with 486 vlb.
(if you spend 400 EURO for PCI plus Radeon, without PCI graphics is even worse).
Optimizations for 68k crap are pointless.
classic amiga really needs cpu better than 68k.
without changing cpu to better than 68k classic amiga nothing will help.
Making software for this crap is simply stupid.
Decision to not suport 68k crap was very wise.
ppc is ofcourse fully compatybilne with 68k.
choice ppc only was a very good decision.
Why are you repeating your nonsense all the time? If that decision was so "wise" why there are only overpriced underpowered hardware or aging used macs the only options left?
It would have been wise if they had created something easy portable so they could support different hardware easily.
Sticking to "PPC crap" was a dead end and all the reasons I have read why "X86" is wrong were pure nonsens (even in that days). When a PPC fan (like you claim, perhaps you do not even own one) talks about "overpriced underpowered hardware" sorry I start to laugh. On my newer PC I can beat most of the PPC computers in pure speed in my 68k emulation. So what is "underpowered" here?
You seem not to understand that most use it for pure fun and then it is not important if it is the fastest platform or not. BTW your "PPC crap" is not much more competitive than the "68k crap" just more expensive.
Post by: OlafS3 on February 24, 2015, 11:00:43 AM
Quote from: alphadec;785301
Making all amiga software incompatible on new amigaone sounds like a fantastic idea.
He can still move windows (but those then unbelievable fast) :lol:
Post by: wawrzon on February 24, 2015, 11:51:57 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;785295
This is certainly not true. It exists in a repository Olsen has, and a couple of people have copies of the repository.
But that is not even the problem. The problem is that Hyperion sees attempts to update the legacy 68K version as competitions to their own Amiga Os 4.0 - instead of a complementary extension of their product portfolio. That's part of the story I don't get, but then again, I don't have to finance it (but then again, I wasn't declared bankrupt either.).
if they ported it to amiga none would buy this broken ppc hardware and the people could check out what os4 is without investing fortunes. they couldnt be caught to remain loyal if they didnt like it.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 24, 2015, 02:50:11 PM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.
.....
Making software for this crap is simply stupid.
Decision to not suport 68k crap was very wise.
....
This thread has stayed relatively drama free, please don't break that trend. There's no need for this type of name calling.
Nobody is saying 68k or even PPC can keep up with newer hardware or think it will take over the market.
We established long ago that this is a hobby platform, but there are a lot of people who still use it and would like updates to the OS, so lets continue to discuss it in a civil manner please.
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 24, 2015, 05:59:35 PM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.
Why are you still trolling this forum? Go away. :bitch:
Post by: number6 on February 24, 2015, 06:49:13 PM
Just a quick note about the dates mentioned in the original link and what they mean after getting a better translation:
(1)Filing (claims) to be filed by February 26, 2015
(2)March 4. 2015 is the date of deposition of the initial report for verification of said claims by the curator.
#6
Post by: PanterHZ on February 25, 2015, 01:44:39 AM
Quote from: ppcamiga1;785299
classic amiga without ppc is underpowered overpriced crap.
Hehe... good attempt at trolling, but you really tried too hard here
Post by: Minuous on February 25, 2015, 04:31:59 AM
Yes, and with this end in mind I was going to port OS4 piechart.gadget to OS3, however the developer refused to release source code for that purpose and was very insulting. What a prick. With that kind of attitude from the OS4 community why should I or any other OS3 developer bother to support OS4-specific features in the future?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 25, 2015, 06:14:41 AM
Quote from: agami;785266
Check you history; The entire source code for 3.x does not exist. It went missing somewhere in the Commodore labyrinth. This was one of the issues faced by the early AmigaOS 4 team. There was no "gold" code stored in a source repository. Bits and pieces here and there. Decompile this and reverse engineer that.
Dumb question, but has anyone checked with Village Tronic? As I vaguely recall they were the ones who actually released 3.1, a month after C= went under. Might they have anything?
Post by: matthey on February 25, 2015, 07:50:38 AM
Quote from: Minuous;785367
>The best would be if the AmigaOS 4 and AmigaOS 3 developers could share code and try to maintain similar APIs where possible.
Yes, and with this end in mind I was going to port OS4 piechart.gadget to OS3, however the developer refused to release source code for that purpose and was very insulting. What a prick. With that kind of attitude from the OS4 community why should I or any other OS3 developer bother to support OS4-specific features in the future?
Because we don't want to sink to the level of these kinds of people and we don't want to punish innocent users for the actions of some misguided developer. People like that reap what they sow. He might just fall off his pedestal when the high and mighty he worships goes bankrupt and he finds himself in the same predicament as us 68k AmigaOS users ;).
Post by: biggun on February 25, 2015, 08:08:41 AM
In their time the 603/604 chips looked like a possible good path for the future.
For the AMIGA the change from 68k to PPC gave a different computing "feeling".
To me AMIGA can be defined as a nice combination of swift and simple OS.
On AMIGA their are no huge abstraction layers - their is no complex memory protection.
This made tinkering with the hardware fun.
Also the 68k Assmebly is very powerful, very flexible and easy to read.
My experience with AMIGA was that with a few lines of relative easy to read assembly you could do a lot.
With a small number of 68k ASM you could code a Star-Field demo, or a Sine-Scroller....
This was fun and easy.
The PPC made a big cut here.
The PPC asm is much harder to read and often you needed 4 instructions on PPC to do what you did with 1 68K instruction before.
So this nice combination of simple OS with easy to read ASM got kind of lost with the PPC change.
Post by: Minuous on February 25, 2015, 08:58:20 AM
Quote from: matthey;785381
Because we don't want to sink to the level of these kinds of people and we don't want to punish innocent users for the actions of some misguided developer. People like that reap what they sow. He might just fall off his pedestal when the high and mighty he worships goes bankrupt and he finds himself in the same predicament as us 68k AmigaOS users ;).
Well, I don't want to punish anyone, but I'm not going to rewrite something from scratch just because the developer won't share his code; that would be a waste of time.
Post by: danwood on February 25, 2015, 01:27:10 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;785373
Dumb question, but has anyone checked with Village Tronic? As I vaguely recall they were the ones who actually released 3.1, a month after C= went under. Might they have anything?
Not needed, as other people have pointed out, there are several people who have the full 3.1 source-code. The Friedens used it to base OS4 on, ThoR and Olaf "olsen" Barthel also have it (Olaf took it off the CBM masters when he was employed by Escom in 1996/7).
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=785278&postcount=406
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=785269&postcount=404
http://obligement.free.fr/articles_traduction/itwbarthel_en.php
Quote
I was doing consulting work for Amiga Technologies GmbH, and part of the job was to sift through the Commodore backup tapes provided to them. These tapes would contain, among other things, the Amiga operating system source code.
Post by: amigakit on February 25, 2015, 07:23:41 PM
If there are any OS 3 coders out there who are interested in working on Warp3D in future please get in contact.
* dependent on hardware capabilities
Post by: sim085 on February 25, 2015, 07:26:30 PM
Quote from: danwood;785398
Not needed, as other people have pointed out, there are several people who have the full 3.1 source-code.
The license would still be propriety ...
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 25, 2015, 07:42:09 PM
Quote from: sim085;785420
The license would still be propriety ...
I think the point was that it wasn't lost as has often been rumored.
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2015, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785419
I think the best way forward is to wherever possible* develop for both AmigaOS 3 and 4 in future.
If there are any OS 3 coders out there who are interested in working on Warp3D in future please get in contact.
* dependent on hardware capabilities
you can probably count these devs on fingers of one hand, just to name the obvious one: karlos. then alain, the autor of wazp. then there are at least two experienced aros devs who got in touch with the matter , but i dont expect them interested.
just to be clear, warp3d is now courtesy of aeon. plain and clear. is that right?
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 25, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1184
Post by: Yasu on February 25, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785419
I think the best way forward is to wherever possible* develop for both AmigaOS 3 and 4 in future.
Why exclude MorphOS and AROS? With this small market, cooperation makes a lot more sense than continous devision.
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2015, 07:55:04 PM
Quote
Hyperion posted a new blog today. Interesting stuff. Doesn't act like a company that's "out of business". Just glancing at it since I saw it pop up on Google+, thought I'd throw it out here for you guys to chew over.
for me they have not acted much like a "company" at any time, in or out of business, but now surely its important to give an intact impression. we have still some days left to see.
Post by: Yasu on February 25, 2015, 08:36:41 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;785425
Hyperion posted a new blog today. Interesting stuff. Doesn't act like a company that's "out of business". Just glancing at it since I saw it pop up on Google+, thought I'd throw it out here for you guys to chew over. ;)
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1184
It's an interesting text, but it's not really news. We have been told the same things with just less details in 2013:
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1010
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=863
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 25, 2015, 08:44:20 PM
Quote from: Yasu;785430
It's an interesting text, but it's not really news. We have been told the same things with just less details in 2013:
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1010
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=863
Unfortunately, still doubling down on PPC. Sigh...
Good news for multi-core PPC users if they survive long enough to make it work and it might set precedence for other AOS like platforms.
I'd be a lot more hopeful if they would say anything in support of the 68k platform though.
SMP in AOS4 just makes them less compatible to the other platforms.
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2015, 09:01:30 PM
Quote
if they survive long enough to make it work and it might set precedence for other AOS like platforms.depending how you define the precedence. apparently arix, an unseen derivate of aros has set a precenedce on it some time ago. and knowing some devs who achieved it, especially jason i trust it being a fact.
http://www.arixfoundation.com/screenshots/
the other thing is how much of advantage it is when actually implemented. since it isnt of any actual use but rather a handicap for software available so far, it sounds rather like a technical excersize, a proof of concept, if you will. same as the extended memory support os4 seems to provide beyond the 2 gig barrier or the x-core chip. stuff someone has put effort into and you like to read about, but will never use.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 25, 2015, 09:06:29 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785432
@Heiroglyph
depending how you define the precedence. apparently arix, an unseen derivate of aros has set a precenedce on it some time ago. and knowing some devs who achieved it, especially jason i trust it being a fact.
http://www.arixfoundation.com/screenshots/
the other thing is how much of advantage it is when actually implemented. since it isnt of any actual use but rather a handicap for software available so far it sounds rather like a technical excersize, a proof of concept it you will. same as the extended memory support os4 seems to provide beyond the 2 gig barrier or the x-core chip. stuff you like to read about but will never use.
Isn't that still a secret tease-only project?
I tend to ignore stuff like that (Natami, various FPGA projects) until I have the potential to actually try them myself.
Not that I'm not interested, but it's vaporware until it's available.
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2015, 09:27:20 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785433
Isn't that still a secret tease-only project?
same as os4 one so far.
Quote
I tend to ignore stuff like that (Natami, various FPGA projects) until I have the potential to actually try them myself.
Not that I'm not interested, but it's vaporware until it's available.
except when it actually bears some fruits like vampire board and the gunnars/jens/whomever core, maybe not a direct successor of natami hype, but definitely something people can get their hands on just now, even if i cant yet, not having an a600 anymore.
Post by: amigakit on February 25, 2015, 10:05:07 PM
We have said in the past posts we would be open to making our software compatible on MOS and porting it over if there is a commercial demand for it.
We have had a good amount of feedback from AmigaOS 3 users who want to have updated software. The new PPaint (http://www.ppaint.com) sales for Classic Amigas have been better than anticipated so far, so it seems there is a small market for AmigaOS 3.x software still :)
@wawrzon
Yes Warp3D is now acquired by A-EON. We hope to invest in this further for Classic Amiga- up until now, development has been stagnant for many years.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 25, 2015, 10:13:17 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785438
@Yasu
We have said in the past posts we would be open to making our software compatible on MOS and porting it over if there is a commercial demand for it.
We have had a good amount of feedback from AmigaOS 3 users who want to have updated software. The new PPaint (http://www.ppaint.com) sales for Classic Amigas have been better than anticipated so far, so it seems there is a small market for AmigaOS 3.x software still :)
@wawrzon
Yes Warp3D is now acquired by A-EON. We hope to invest in this further for Classic Amiga- up until now, development has been stagnant for many years.
That's all very good news. Glad to hear it!
Now, work on that updated AOS problem and take all my money. :)
Post by: wawrzon on February 25, 2015, 10:16:52 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785438
@wawrzon
Yes Warp3D is now acquired by A-EON. We hope to invest in this further for Classic Amiga- up until now, development has been stagnant for many years.
Ths for clarifying. I might be able to provide some testing, while hardly recalling anything from times back, as matt, alain and bernd tried to improve what we had without any support. Im not signing any ndas though and would strongly advised others not to.
Post by: ferrellsl on February 25, 2015, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: Heiroglyph;785433
Isn't that still a secret tease-only project?
I tend to ignore stuff like that (Natami, various FPGA projects) until I have the potential to actually try them myself.
Not that I'm not interested, but it's vaporware until it's available.
Yes, it's vaporware. Not sure why the devs haven't shown any progress other than they decided that there are already too many AROS-on-Linux variants. I can say that Arix is another "AROS hosted on a Linux" distro with all the other Linux bits stripped away, no package manager, no Gnome/KDE, etc.
Post by: Yasu on February 25, 2015, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: amigakit;785438
@Yasu
We have said in the past posts we would be open to making our software compatible on MOS and porting it over if there is a commercial demand for it.
We have had a good amount of feedback from AmigaOS 3 users who want to have updated software. The new PPaint (http://www.ppaint.com) sales for Classic Amigas have been better than anticipated so far, so it seems there is a small market for AmigaOS 3.x software still :)
I know, but you keep coming back to "AmigaOS 4". I have a hard time believing that there are so many more AmigaOS 4 users that it makes commercial sense and that MorphOS users are so few that it doesn't. If anything they should be about as many on both camps. Maybe AOS 4 users open their wallets more willingly but still.
Post by: Heiroglyph on February 25, 2015, 11:18:24 PM
Quote from: Yasu;785445
I know, but you keep coming back to "AmigaOS 4". I have a hard time believing that there are so many more AmigaOS 4 users that it makes commercial sense and that MorphOS users are so few that it doesn't. If anything they should be about as many on both camps. Maybe AOS 4 users open their wallets more willingly but still.
Is it even that easy to tell when MorphOS users buy AOS3 compatible software?
Maybe some of those blips on the radar were actually from MOS users.
Combine AOS3 and MorphOS and there can't possibly be more AOS4 users.
Post by: itix on February 26, 2015, 08:11:18 AM
Quote from: amigakit;785438
@Yasu
We have said in the past posts we would be open to making our software compatible on MOS and porting it over if there is a commercial demand for it.
We have had a good amount of feedback from AmigaOS 3 users who want to have updated software. The new PPaint (http://www.ppaint.com) sales for Classic Amigas have been better than anticipated so far, so it seems there is a small market for AmigaOS 3.x software still :)
It probably doesnt hurt that MorphOS can run OS3 software so it has boosted PPaint sales a little :)
Post by: whabang on February 26, 2015, 10:02:31 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;785425
Hyperion posted a new blog today. Interesting stuff. Doesn't act like a company that's "out of business". Just glancing at it since I saw it pop up on Google+, thought I'd throw it out here for you guys to chew over. ;)
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=1184
My ability to read Belgianese is somewhat limited, and I won't even bother with translators, but didn't that Insolvency request specify that the hearing won't be until March 4th?
If so, Hyperion will probably be in business at least until then. After that, it's up to the courts/creditors.
Post by: kamelito on February 26, 2015, 11:43:00 AM
Post by: dammy on February 26, 2015, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: whabang;785468
My ability to read Belgianese is somewhat limited, and I won't even bother with translators, but didn't that Insolvency request specify that the hearing won't be until March 4th?
If so, Hyperion will probably be in business at least until then. After that, it's up to the courts/creditors.
No, it was declared insolvent on Jan 26th. Today (Feb 26th) is the deadline for creditors (that would be including Devs that were never paid for their OS4 work) to file with Bert with their statement on what Hyperion owes them. March 4th is when Bert compiles everything and presents a report on what to do with Hyperion (including liquidation option). If a Dev does not file in a few hours, Hyperion is then free from ever having to pay that Dev for their work.
Now Ben has filed an appeal against the original (default) ruling. However if the courts grant Ben another hearing, all Bert's work is going to be momentum working against Hyperion especially after the financial audit and all the debt that I doubt was ever included in Hyperion's book such as debt owed to Devs. It's going to take a miracle.
Post by: vidarh on February 26, 2015, 02:56:16 PM
Quote from: dammy;785472
No, it was declared insolvent on Jan 26th. Today (Feb 26th) is the deadline for creditors (that would be including Devs that were never paid for their OS4 work) to file with Bert with their statement on what Hyperion owes them. March 4th is when Bert compiles everything and presents a report on what to do with Hyperion (including liquidation option). If a Dev does not file in a few hours, Hyperion is then free from ever having to pay that Dev for their work.
I don't know Belgian law, but it doesn't work like that any place I know about and it'd be very odd (though possible) for Belgium to deviate substantially from most European countries in this respect.
A creditor that does not file a claim with the administrator will have severely reduced chance of getting a piece of the pie *if* Hyperion is liquidated, but only because in the case of liquidation the assets are irreversibly (for the most part) sold of or distributed to creditors, and the company (and hence the debt) ceases to exist at the end of the process. A claim does not just evaporate into thin air because a time limit set by the bankruptcy court passes (though depending on jurisdiction the difficulty in getting a claim recognised subsequently may vary)
If the company is not liquidated, claims are generally not affected at all any more than other contracts would be - the company would in that case generally go back to operating as if nothing had happened.
Quote
Now Ben has filed an appeal against the original (default) ruling. However if the courts grant Ben another hearing, all Bert's work is going to be momentum working against Hyperion especially after the financial audit and all the debt that I doubt was ever included in Hyperion's book such as debt owed to Devs. It's going to take a miracle.
What you are suggesting is that you doubt that Hyperion has followed the law. If you are right, and there are debts owed to Devs or others that is valid, and that does not appear on Hyperions books, they've carried out accounting fraud to an extent that would be a criminal offence in most countries.
Just to make clear what we are talking about. If a lot of unknown debt surfaces, then that's far, far more serious than a bankruptcy claim - a bankruptcy only very rarely gives rise to criminal liabilities for the principals of the business (they main way that would happen would be if the principals of the business have known for some time that the business was insolvent without starting insolvency proceedings).
Unless you have something more concrete than unspecified "doubts" about their bookkeeping, that is speculation of a level best left until after we see what actually happens.
Post by: A1260 on February 26, 2015, 03:26:44 PM
Post by: Yasu on February 26, 2015, 03:48:09 PM
Post by: Fats on February 26, 2015, 08:57:42 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;785443
I can say that Arix is another "AROS hosted on a Linux" distro with all the other Linux bits stripped away, no package manager, no Gnome/KDE, etc.
Something like amithlon then in concept ?
Just asking as I have a hard time getting into the sentiment of Amithlon being a good AmigaOS and hosted AROS just being a Linux distro.
Amithlon is also just a Linux distro with everything thrown out and some m68k emulation put on top.
Post by: saimon69 on February 26, 2015, 09:28:08 PM
Quote from: Fats;785488
Something like amithlon then in concept ?
Just asking as I have a hard time getting into the sentiment of Amithlon being a good AmigaOS and hosted AROS just being a Linux distro.
Amithlon is also just a Linux distro with everything thrown out and some m68k emulation put on top.
THAT is the difference: for double-standard-intel-outside folks, linux with 68k emulation != bare bones linux with AROS on top; wonder what an amithlon with AROS68k instead of AmigaOS could be called...
Post by: ferrellsl on February 26, 2015, 09:39:00 PM
Quote from: Fats;785488
Something like amithlon then in concept ?
Just asking as I have a hard time getting into the sentiment of Amithlon being a good AmigaOS and hosted AROS just being a Linux distro.
Amithlon is also just a Linux distro with everything thrown out and some m68k emulation put on top.
Yep, that about sums it up. This is why I too am not interested in Arix. Arix is a great concept if you're an AROS application developer who doesn't care what's underneath the hood. But native AROS/IcarosDesktop is much more appealing to me because it isn't Linux underneath. If I wanted to run Linux, I'd just download and install one of the various Linux distros....and I have used Linux in the past but it's a real pain the @ass to use, especially if you upgrade your hardware periodically or use non-opensource video drivers.
There's also a performance hit when running AROS hosted on Linux. All the AROS API calls have to be translated into Linux API calls first, so it adds another layer of complexity and overhead which again I don't find appealing.
Post by: danbeaver on February 26, 2015, 10:55:48 PM
Post by: OlafS3 on February 26, 2015, 11:21:44 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;785491
Yep, that about sums it up. This is why I too am not interested in Arix. Arix is a great concept if you're an AROS application developer who doesn't care what's underneath the hood. But native AROS/IcarosDesktop is much more appealing to me because it isn't Linux underneath. If I wanted to run Linux, I'd just download and install one of the various Linux distros....and I have used Linux in the past but it's a real pain the @ass to use, especially if you upgrade your hardware periodically or use non-opensource video drivers.
There's also a performance hit when running AROS hosted on Linux. All the AROS API calls have to be translated into Linux API calls first, so it adds another layer of complexity and overhead which again I don't find appealing.
He was not understanding this view. Ok perhaps more a emotional thing like many other things in this community. But you hopefully do not use MacOS then because it is a kind of "Linux hosted" too. Linux hosted is a way to get a quick-fix for the problems with missing drivers, we can of course wait and hope another 20 years or use what is available. ARIX is not a simple linux hosted solution, they create a new kernel that is a merge of linux and Aros so it will be not a linux distribution but AROS using linux drivers for getting support of more hardware (something people often moaned about).
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on February 26, 2015, 11:26:50 PM
Quote from: danbeaver;785492
OMG! Hyperion is bankrupt?
(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/1/5/3/1/2/a4666147-41-NOT-SURE-IF-TROLLING-OR-BEING-TROLLED.jpg)
;)
Post by: Terminills on February 27, 2015, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Fats;785488
Something like amithlon then in concept ?
Just asking as I have a hard time getting into the sentiment of Amithlon being a good AmigaOS and hosted AROS just being a Linux distro.
Amithlon is also just a Linux distro with everything thrown out and some m68k emulation put on top.
To each their own tbh. I for one as expected like the arix concept. Would I call it a linux distro I don't know depends on if you classify android as a linux distro. :)
Post by: Fats on February 27, 2015, 01:44:35 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;785491
There's also a performance hit when running AROS hosted on Linux. All the AROS API calls have to be translated into Linux API calls first, so it adds another layer of complexity and overhead which again I don't find appealing.
I this proven by benchmarks ? I would assume Linux drivers are much more optimised than native AROS drivers so I would assume ARIX to be faster than native AROS.
Post by: itix on February 27, 2015, 02:07:10 PM
Quote from: Fats;785524
I this proven by benchmarks ? I would assume Linux drivers are much more optimised than native AROS drivers so I would assume ARIX to be faster than native AROS.
Right, the overhead from API translation is non-issue. It is so small you cant measure it.
It is more like psychological issue, just like those CopyMemQuicker patches which make people believe the system is faster.
Post by: Terminills on February 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM
Quote from: Fats;785524
I this proven by benchmarks ? I would assume Linux drivers are much more optimised than native AROS drivers so I would assume ARIX to be faster than native AROS.
Well that does bring up the another point. I have actually been able to use the closed source display drivers without xwindows. :)
Post by: wawrzon on February 27, 2015, 03:33:42 PM
are you going to tease us without end or are you ever going to release some stuff or at least some honest and precise information one day? you are of course entitled to whatever you like, as hyperion is, but these tactics look a bit too comparable for my taste.
Post by: Terminills on February 27, 2015, 03:45:22 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785536
@terrminills
are you going to tease us without end or are you ever going to release some stuff or at least some honest and precise information one day? you are of course entitled to whatever you like, as hyperion is, but these tactics look a bit too comparable for my taste.
TBH I've never hidden where the builds are kept. They are available to download whenever someone wants. I just never advertised them either. :) Now there are my own private builds which I don't upload often but I typically keep the stuff I'm playing with in the same place as gutenprint.
Post by: wawrzon on February 27, 2015, 05:36:30 PM
Post by: ferrellsl on February 27, 2015, 05:47:16 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;785542
ah, so arix is freely available for download? didnt know that. gitorious branch doesnt seem very active. outta interest, is it possible do boot it from an usb thumb to see what gives? i think if people got in touch whats up, you could get some actual interest, feedback and therefore some current and even contributors?
If you want to know how ARIX performs, just grab one of the other AROS hosted on Linux distros and give that a spin. The only significant difference is that ARIX has most of the Linux non-essential bits removed such as the package manager, Gnome/KDE desktop manager, etc.
Post by: jj on February 27, 2015, 09:01:36 PM
Post by: Boot_WB on February 27, 2015, 09:14:33 PM
Quote from: JJ;785554
ok cant be bothered to read about 300 odd posts since i last looked at this thread. could somone summarise the current situation for me please. Have they sorted it or gone under ?
No change as yet:
- They have been declared bankrupt;
- They are appealing the decision.
The only deadline to have passed (26/2/15) is for Hyperion's creditors to register claims with the courts for the purposes of disbursing the proceeds of any liquidation of assets.
The next date of interest should be next Thursday (4/3/15) - Date of deposition of initial report for verification of said claims by the curator.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=500&viewmode=flat&order=0#752763
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=500&viewmode=flat&order=0#752778
NB These dates relate to the bankruptcy procedure, not the appeal.
Whilst the appeal had to be registered within 15 days of the initial ruling, I don't have any reliable information on how long the appeal process may take.
However since the bankruptcy process is quite fast moving, any appeals procedure would by necessity need to be expedient (otherwise there would be nothing left to resurrect for any 'normal' business).
Post by: danbeaver on February 27, 2015, 09:24:13 PM
"FaillissementsDossier.be makes every effort to regularly update and add to this public source web page. It is possible that the content is incomplete/incorrect despite this care and consideration. FaillissementsDossier.be provides the content of the website in its current state (“as is”) without guarantee or safeguard regarding soundness, suitability for a certain aim or otherwise. FaillissementsDossier.be accepts no responsibility for damage that has or may be inflicted and arises from and is in any way connected with the use of FaillissementsDossier.be or the impossibility of consulting the website. Apart from this disclaimer, FaillissementsDossier.be shall not be responsible for third party documents clearly linked to the web page. A link is no confirmation of these files."
It is from the bottom of the Belgian Web page
Post by: jj on February 27, 2015, 11:18:11 PM
Quote from: Boot_WB;785556
No change as yet:
- They have been declared bankrupt;
- They are appealing the decision.
The only deadline to have passed (26/2/15) is for Hyperion's creditors to register claims with the courts for the purposes of disbursing the proceeds of any liquidation of assets.
The next date of interest should be next Thursday (4/3/15) - Date of deposition of initial report for verification of said claims by the curator.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=500&viewmode=flat&order=0#752763
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=500&viewmode=flat&order=0#752778
NB These dates relate to the bankruptcy procedure, not the appeal.
Whilst the appeal had to be registered within 15 days of the initial ruling, I don't have any reliable information on how long the appeal process may take.
However since the bankruptcy process is quite fast moving, any appeals procedure would by necessity need to be expedient (otherwise there would be nothing left to resurrect for any 'normal' business).
Thanks dude, exactly what I was looking for :)
Post by: Fats on February 28, 2015, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: itix;785528
It is more like psychological issue, just like those CopyMemQuicker patches which make people believe the system is faster.
And in itself it's no problem if people prefer native over hosted or fill their system with micro optimization patches. It would be nice though if people realize this preference is mostly based on sentiment and not on practical advantages.
Post by: Terminills on February 28, 2015, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;785545
If you want to know how ARIX performs, just grab one of the other AROS hosted on Linux distros and give that a spin. The only significant difference is that ARIX has most of the Linux non-essential bits removed such as the package manager, Gnome/KDE desktop manager, etc.
If by non-essential you mean Everything but low level Drivers you are correct. We don't even use XWindows. :P
Post by: Yasu on March 16, 2015, 08:43:13 AM
Quote
Dear Sir,
The company started an opposition procedure.
I expect the decision of the Court at the end of the month.
Yours sincerely,
Bert DEHANDSCHUTTER
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on March 16, 2015, 11:40:41 AM
Quote from: Yasu;786383
I asked the curator about how everything was going since there are so much speculation (and silence from Hyperion). I just got this reply:
Hehe.. I did as well and just got a message from Dehandschutter today. :)
Post by: Yasu on March 16, 2015, 12:00:50 PM
Two more weeks!
Sorry, I couldn't help myself :p
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on March 16, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: Yasu;786392
This is usually said to be sarcastic but ...
Two more weeks!
Sorry, I couldn't help myself :p
:laughing:
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on March 26, 2015, 06:20:57 PM
"The hearing will take place next week on Tuesday and one week later the decision of the Court.
Bert DEHANDSCHUTTER"
Link to the article on my blog: http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/03/26/the-hyperion-bankruptcy-hearing-next-week/ (http://oldschoolgameblog.com/2015/03/26/the-hyperion-bankruptcy-hearing-next-week/)
Post by: kolla on March 27, 2015, 05:21:35 AM
Post by: Wolfe on March 27, 2015, 06:39:23 AM
Quote from: Yasu;786392
This is usually said to be sarcastic but ...
Two more weeks!
Sorry, I couldn't help myself :p
Wow! Thats sooner than the schedule that thought was in effect - Two more weeks, ten years and eleven hours!
Post by: aGGreSSor on March 27, 2015, 08:13:43 PM
Quote from: Wolfe;786763
Wow! Thats sooner than the schedule that thought was in effect - Two more weeks, ten years and eleven hours!
May God bless and protect Hyperion Entertainment :angel:
Post by: QuikSanz on April 03, 2015, 08:06:45 PM
Chris
Post by: ferrellsl on April 03, 2015, 08:20:39 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;787355
It's over. They are not bankrupt. Info here: " http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=1300&viewmode=flat&order=0 "
Chris
That is incorrect. They are bankrupt as declared by the court. Here's the translation:
Insolvency Hyperion Entertainment Cvba
On 27-01-2015 was Hyperion Entertainment Cvba in Sint-Agatha-Berchem (Brussel) declared by the court in Brussels bankrupt. As a liquidator is appointed Bert Dehandschutter. The company number is 466380552nd
Post by: Duce on April 03, 2015, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: QuikSanz;787355
It's over. They are not bankrupt. Info here: " http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39913&forum=14&start=1300&viewmode=flat&order=0 "
Chris
LOL. A contract coder slash aspiring blues guitar player not even giving a URL or source is not confirmation of anything, and with all due respect, if I was his employer, I'd ask him to do his job coding versus running the PR gamut and voicing his opinions, which comes off entirely as a public statement from Hyperion / the other parties with involved interests in OS4 (A-EON/Amigakit). Sheer hackery. Really, don't let the guy coding the paint program run defense on a public basis, even if it's his own doing. I'd fire people for less in such a similar controversial situation.
Seen a lot of hysterical things, but this does take the cake - and being a reasonably happy bought and paid for user of OS4, I've got vested stakes in this as well. I'd like to see a future version of OS4, but reading "breaking news" from a third party contract coder with no source and not the company itself is beyond unprofessional.
Just when you thought you seen it all. Just awful.
Post by: QuikSanz on April 03, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
Post by: kolla on April 03, 2015, 08:57:49 PM
Post by: Duce on April 03, 2015, 09:04:01 PM
Nothing at all.
Post by: eliyahu on April 03, 2015, 09:28:33 PM
i just updated intuitionbase.com (http://www.intuitionbase.com) with the following news blurb:
Quote
Posting on the AOS4 beta tester mailing list, Hyperion legal director Ben Hermans has confirmed that the default judgement against the company was overturned on April 2nd. "This entails that in the eyes of the law the bankruptcy never took place and Hyperion Entertainment CVBA was never in a state of bankruptcy," said Hermans. This ends weeks of speculation over the commercial fate of the developer of the Amiga operating system. The development of AOS4 never halted during this period.so there you have it from the horse's mouth. i don't know if hyperion intends to release a statement or comment further, but the judgement was overturned. back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)
-- eliyahu
Post by: QuikSanz on April 03, 2015, 10:00:41 PM
Post by: danbeaver on April 03, 2015, 11:01:22 PM
Post by: QuikSanz on April 03, 2015, 11:24:34 PM
Quote from: danbeaver;787373
All the way over in California? I always thought of California as another country, since it is totally unlike the rest of the USA.
Quite right my friend. Getting so bad would like to get out of it. That coming from an 8th generation Californian!
Chris
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on April 03, 2015, 11:46:51 PM
Post by: SACC-guy on April 04, 2015, 12:34:05 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;787376
Quite right my friend. Getting so bad would like to get out of it. That coming from an 8th generation Californian!LOL Soooo true, this part of the world hasn't been the same since the europeons got here.
Chris
Post by: agami on April 04, 2015, 12:44:10 AM
Even in Belgium, if a company is doing OK financially they never need to go through the bankruptcy court. It's not a joke, it's not a right of passage. What this should have revealed to most of you is that the money just isn't coming in to make for a sustainable Hyperion. They may have got out of this one, but how soon before the next one? And what does this mean for continued funding for OS 4.2 and beyond?
Post by: QuikSanz on April 04, 2015, 01:29:00 AM
Post by: apa on April 04, 2015, 09:38:43 AM
Post by: yssing on April 04, 2015, 11:42:10 AM
Post by: Yasu on April 04, 2015, 02:14:45 PM
Not to piss on anyones parade here, but maybe the state of 4.2 is a lot worse that people think.
Post by: yssing on April 04, 2015, 06:24:22 PM
Quote from: Yasu;787403
I guess it's a good thing HE isn't bankrupt anymore, but I'm still worried. Remember all the years the dev team told people Warp3D is dead and Gullium is coming with the upcoming 4.2. Now, A-Eon is paying to port Warp3D to the HD cards (kudos to that!). THAT can't be a good sign.
Not to piss on anyones parade here, but maybe the state of 4.2 is a lot worse that people think.
I doubt it. Warp3D was ordered long ago.
Post by: Yasu on April 04, 2015, 08:23:49 PM
Quote from: yssing;787413
I doubt it. Warp3D was ordered long ago.
Really? I remember when Daytona asked for missing functions to Warp3D on Hyperion forum and Solie closed the threads with the words that it was obsolete thanks to Gallium.
I mean, if Gallium is close enough to finished, then why do you need Warp3D?
Post by: yssing on April 04, 2015, 11:42:01 PM
Post by: BSzili on April 05, 2015, 07:12:18 AM
Post by: OlafS3 on April 05, 2015, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: yssing;787425
Warp3D is NOT a Hyperion product.
What Yasu meant Trevor D. would not invest money in buying and updating of Warp3D if 4.2. with MESA/Gallium would be around the corner. Because simple it would be pure waste of money.
Post by: Yasu on April 05, 2015, 11:46:02 AM
Post by: danbeaver on April 05, 2015, 01:38:11 PM
Post by: cgutjahr on April 05, 2015, 03:08:51 PM
Quote from: yssing;787425
Warp3D is NOT a Hyperion product.
It was, for about a decade. And it was declared dead by the two programmers behind it, about a decade ago.
Stop trying to rewrite history. They don't have the manpower to port a modern 3D system, so OS 4.1 is stuck with Warp 3D for now. that' not nice, but it's understandable. No need to claim that THE TROLLS DO NOT CONTROL THE AIRPORT.
Post by: yssing on April 05, 2015, 06:24:53 PM
Quote from: cgutjahr;787439
No need to claim that THE TROLLS DO NOT CONTROL THE AIRPORT.what does that even mean?
Quote from: OlafS3;787433
What Yasu meant Trevor D. would not invest money in buying and updating of Warp3D if 4.2. with MESA/Gallium would be around the corner. Because simple it would be pure waste of money.That makes no sense, ofcourse some one can invest in one technology even though an other is announced. Warp3D has been a big item on many AOS4's wishlist, surely making that come to life, could be reason enough.
I am not saying anything about the current state of AOS4.2 or Gallium, I am just saying, that speculating on AOS4.2's failure to deliver based on new Warp3D drivers being released, is reading to much into it.
Post by: OlafS3 on April 05, 2015, 06:52:32 PM
Quote from: yssing;787448
No one is trying to rewrite history, who owned warp3D a decade ago is irrelevant to its current status, which is, it is not a Hyperion product and it is not dead.
what does that even mean?
That makes no sense, ofcourse some one can invest in one technology even though an other is announced. Warp3D has been a big item on many AOS4's wishlist, surely making that come to life, could be reason enough.
I am not saying anything about the current state of AOS4.2 or Gallium, I am just saying, that speculating on AOS4.2's failure to deliver based on new Warp3D drivers being released, is reading to much into it.
Regarding Gutjahr read the newest blog of Trevor (expecially the "Troll" part)
It was already my guess when update of Warp3D was announced (I even predicted that at that time). It makes most sense if you have some insight view and know that 4.2 will not be available in foreseeable future and want to have Warp3D as a kind of quick solution. Otherwise it would be wasting money and I do not think that Trevor would do that. But it is of course just speculation. We cannot know and those who know propably are not allowed to speak :). It is not a guess if 4.2 will be ever reality or not but that 4.2 is still far away.
Post by: Spectre660 on April 05, 2015, 07:12:42 PM
The original announcement of Warp3D for Radeon HD was made two and a half years ago so it is difficult for me to speculate. Also even with 4.2 and gallium will the older 3D software run as is or wont it still need Warp3D ?
Post by: Yasu on April 12, 2015, 05:13:09 PM
Quote
The company is in the process of reorganizing itself by opening up its shareholdership and appointing a new exective director. More details on that will follow when all legal formalities are behind us.
What does this mean exactly?
Post by: eliyahu on April 12, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
Quote from: Yasu;787724
A statement from Hyperions (http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/) homepage:
What does this mean exactly?
it means someone ponied up some money to invest in hyperion and will be added as a director. the announcement will come shortly.
-- eliyahu
Post by: OlafS3 on April 12, 2015, 06:31:28 PM
Post by: antikk on April 12, 2015, 06:36:10 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;787728
i have a guess who that might be
Post by: OlafS3 on April 12, 2015, 06:54:33 PM
Quote from: antikk;787730
My guess is you. :)
Huh? :)
Post by: Boot_WB on April 12, 2015, 08:40:58 PM
Quote from: OlafS3;787728
i have a guess who that might be
(http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/675x380/2014/10/dick_van_dyke_princess_grace_awards.jpg)
Post by: agami on April 13, 2015, 01:36:24 AM
Quote from: Yasu;787724
...
What does this mean exactly?
There could be a provision in Belgium's commercial law which would be akin to the now popular Chapter 11 in US. This allows a company to avoid bankruptcy by reorganizing.
You might ask: Why didn't Commodore file for Chapter 11 in 1993? Reorganization works only when the company still possesses the finances to support the reorg.
Post by: psxphill on April 13, 2015, 08:09:08 AM
Quote from: agami;787739
You might ask: Why didn't Commodore file for Chapter 11 in 1993? Reorganization works only when the company still possesses the finances to support the reorg.
Commodore did file for chapter 11 in 1994, they didn't file in 1993 because they thought the CD32 would save them. It probably would have if they didn't have to pay the xor patent, which caused the CD32 import to be banned. That court decision was the reason that commodore couldn't be saved.
Of course by 1995 commodore would be in trouble again as they wouldn't be able to compete with Sony.
Post by: agami on April 13, 2015, 09:54:25 AM
Post by: Bugala on April 13, 2015, 12:50:15 PM
Post by: ferrellsl on April 13, 2015, 09:38:09 PM
It's doubtful that anyone other than Trevor would want to rescue Hyperion. There aren't many people who'd invest in Hyperion unless Hyperion can convince them that the company can turn a profit with an infusion of cash and a reorganization. Hyperion obviously hasn't been making a profit for a while now or they wouldn't be in this position to begin with. I honestly hope Hyperion survives but it'll take some groundbreaking changes in both OS4 and within the company itself to survive. Is it me or does the NG Amiga scene appear to be just one very long train wreck?
Post by: saimon69 on April 13, 2015, 09:45:59 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;787768
Is it me or does the NG Amiga scene appear to be just one very long train wreck?
At least the COMMERCIAL one does...
Post by: psxphill on April 13, 2015, 10:21:33 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;787768
There aren't many people who'd invest in Hyperion unless Hyperion can convince them that the company can turn a profit with an infusion of cash and a reorganization.
Profit is overrated, you just need enough to pay your bills and salaries. If every spare bit of cash goes to the owners salary/bonus then you never make a profit.
Most investors are more interested in turnover than profit. It's unlikely that their turnover is that impressive, even with all the upgrades they have been selling. However it might be enough and some people are optimistic about the future anyway (or are just living the dream as long as they can).
Even strategic losses can be ok. It all depends on how others perceive you (see google/twitter/etc). They got lucky because people threw money at them when they weren't making money.
Post by: ferrellsl on April 13, 2015, 10:23:18 PM
Quote from: saimon69;787769
At least the COMMERCIAL one does...
True that! LOL!
It's too bad that A-Eon still seems headed down the dead-end road of PPC processors. Apple deliberated the switch to x86 years ago for the very same reasons found in the Amiga scene. They didn't want to alienate their hardcore PPC supporters. I wish A-Eon would make the jump to another architecture just as Apple did. It worked for Apple and it will work for Hyperion/A-Eon. Just as Amiga classics hit the end of their lifecycle and moved on to PPC Amigas, it's now time to park the PPC Amigas and move forward once again. What better time to do it? Sure, the hardcore PPC fanatics will whine and moan, but they're obviously not a large enough factor to even keep Hyperion afloat any more.
Continuing to stay the course just to satisfy a shrinking and fanatical PPC customer base is a road to disaster. That's what we're seeing right now with Hyperion. Propping up Hyperion without any real changes in the OS and the hardware will only prolong the inevitable.
A-Eon would be better served to just drop OS4 altogether and go with a flavor of AROS. They could use AROS for the X5000 until a move to another non-PPC architecture is initiated. Having used OS4 on a PegII for a couple years only served to show me what a mess OS4 has become. OS4 is a "Frankenstein's Monster of an OS" and newer features such as USB support seemed to be just quick and bug-filled hacks. And OS4 is also lacking the very basics needed for most businesses to even consider adopting it. There's absolutely no security nor multi-user capabilities.
I'm an IT professional who values his reputation and if I recommended that any of my clients buy an Amiga/OS4, I'd quickly lose that client if I wasn't jeered out of the room first. There's absolutely nothing about OS4 that I can recommend to them, especially when it's tied to a PPC architecture. Even if I argued that they could run Linux on an X1000/X5000, they wouldn't be willing to pay such an exorbitant price for hardware that questionably matches x86 performance from 10 years ago.
Post by: ferrellsl on April 13, 2015, 10:29:26 PM
Quote from: psxphill;787772
Profit is overrated, you just need enough to pay your bills and salaries. If every spare bit of cash goes to the owners salary/bonus then you never make a profit.
Most investors are more interested in turnover than profit. It's unlikely that their turnover is that impressive, even with all the upgrades they have been selling. However it might be enough and some people are optimistic about the future anyway (or are just living the dream as long as they can).
Even strategic losses can be ok. It all depends on how others perceive you.
You're joking or you're extremely out of touch. Profits are what pays those salaries and bills that you're referring to. Profits are what investors and shareholders expect, and when there's no profit, they take their money elsewhere and the company gets sold or shut down. Do you think anyone will just send Hyperion free money to play with and expect a zero return?
Owners, CFOs, and CEOs have to worry about perception too. Their shareholders don't give a rat's ass about anything other than results. Your comments make me think that you're the guy who has really been at Hyperion's helm the past few years.
Post by: eliyahu on April 13, 2015, 10:34:44 PM
guys, things are getting nasty here. since it turns out that hyperion is not bankrupt, show's over. thread closed.
-- eliyahu