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AuthorTopic: What will drive the New Amiga?  (Read 15541 times)

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Offline Wolfe

Re: Nitpick alert
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2004, 09:30:32 PM »
Its all kinda mute at this point as there is no mini-itx or OS4 available.  How it is packaged, reviewed and of course the "price" will be the deciding factor.

It should be fun, when it arrives.  :-)
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Offline Cass

Re: Nitpick alert
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2004, 09:30:46 PM »
Quote

With the right feature set and marketing, a device like this could take off, if only marketed to the MP3/Gameboy/early adopter markets. There's no WAY an Amiga would ever take over the business PDA market, so why try? I for one would love to have a handheld computer that could record hi-fidelity audio or video and play games and chat over wifi. It could be the new Walkman.


Many people now have turned their attention to PDAs and mobiles. It's a new battle field, and a place where is a chance for competition (not yet monopolized).
________
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« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 10:58:12 PM by Cass »
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Offline Hammer

Re: It's simple you silly ...
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2004, 09:55:53 PM »
>Windows is so ubiquitous that it is very easy
>to hack

It's about the same as with Linux/GNU/KDE distros. Except, one doesn’t have the media exposure as Windows. (hint: use google to search for Linux/GNU/KDE).

Note that a Lindows(budget Walmart PCs)(Linux distro) has duplicate Windows XP (non-SP2) style security).  

>or have infected by spyware or viruses.

Security by obscurity is flawed.

With WinXP SP2(recalling)
1. NX instructions(ATM only with AMD64 CPUs) in  will reduce the buffer overflow issues.  
2. Apply memory protection for Window's network infrastructure. Other device drivers remains as non-memory protected(for speed issues).
3. Apply Java VM style for MS's Active scripts.

>I doubt the markets for dedicated computing
>devices where sensitive information is made
>available would go to a Windows client or
>server.

Plenty of small business is currently using MS Windows 2003 ‘Small Business Server’ Edition as their mission critical server OS.
 
> Medical systems - hospital devices, home care
> medical devices, financial systems - ATM, cash
> registers, POS systems, automation systems -
> robotics, vending machines.

Note that there are Windows based system for ATM(i.e. did you miss The Inquirer’s BSOD ATM screen shots?), Train time table displays(Aussie state of NSW's RTA), Guided Missile Frigates(US Navy), POS systems(my local shoe shop has serveral of them) and 'etc'. Also note that there are mission critical MIS systems that runs on Windows system.
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Offline Hammer

Re: No AROS mentioned?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2004, 10:04:53 PM »
@Dammy

Well, Linux has a corporate backing e.g. Red Hat, Novell, SUN, IBM, ‘etc’.
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Offline Hammer

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2004, 10:21:45 PM »
Quote
Granted, but neither really had the "market cornering impact" of Office, much the same as there were browsers before IE, but IE is taking over the browser market.

Note that Netscape use to have a dominate position (Netscape 6 didn't help thier cause).

Quote
I honestly believe that either KMOS, or Genesi could wing their way into the "Middleware" market,

An example of "middleware" is
Oracle i.e. plenty of MIS/CRM vendors builds thier products and services around this middleware. MS/MONO.NET is another middleware infrastructure for application programmers to build on and provide RAD(rapid application development) products and services.  The same thing is true for Java.
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Offline newbee

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2004, 10:43:37 PM »
Hi team

You want to know what could drive AmigaOid sales:

Here:
Poweroid 1204 silent PC
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/71/36437.html

There is a real market for "affordable" computers that don't sound like a Jet Engine.

The AmigaOid OS's are very nearly usable (Open office and Mozilla would be a huge help here) and if "Joe Public" could have a computer that did what they required without warming their house or waking there neighbours.... They will be interested.

Lets look at what AmigaOids do well:

1. Boot REALLY REALLY fast.
2. Have the potential to be really silent.

Lets build on our strengths.

Regards
Darren
(Poor grammer, typos and spelling are DELIBERATE )
I\\\'ve never used an Amiga

Convince me....

I am your future :-)

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Offline dammy

Re: No AROS mentioned?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2004, 10:56:36 PM »
Poster: Hammer  Posted: 2004/3/22 17:04:53

Quote
Well, Linux has a corporate backing e.g. Red Hat, Novell, SUN, IBM, ‘etc’.


My point is Linus did not have any corp support in the beginning with his Linux.  Linux afterall is just a kernel, the other stuff was added on to Linux kernel as time went on.  Eventually the Big money found Linux as a suitable replacement of M$ warez, but that is a recent event.  Linus with his Linux, and a host of other Open Source OSs developers all travelled down a bumpy dirt road of developement.  Just like AROS has been.  Asked me in 1990 which OS, AmigaOS or Linux would be flurishing in 15 years, I would have have said Amiga.  Afterall Linux has no support and no company backing it where Amiga had the mighty C=.  How wrong I would have been.  

Feel free is discount AROS as much as you want.  M$ did with Linux so many moons ago.

Dammy
Dammy

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Offline Ogy

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2004, 11:14:19 PM »
Wayne has got the point here... As a matter of fact pretty much all of my postings to Amiga.org over the last year or so were about "missing" software... Now - problem with this one in year 2004, again as Wayne pointed out earlier on, is that we don’t even have a decent web browser not to mention some "killer ap." And if anyone thinks that some amazing software will appear on Amiga any time soon must be crazy... There are many reasons why... In my opinion there was, and perhaps still is, only one way to penetrate households world wide and move beyond current and dying Amiga market - and that is through existing x86 systems that are on everybody’s desks. So in short this is the way to stay alive...

1. Unity (community and the big names)

2. x86 (ideally)

3. Cheep DVD with AMIGA OS4, DEVELOPING TOOLS and ESSENTIAL SOFTWARE (Page stream, Photogenics, Image FX...etc)crammed in and available everywhere

Very simple - in year or two, half of the world would know about it and would be dual booting into it with pleasure...

After that we can start thinking about some specially configured Amiga Ones with stickers and other rubish...
 

Offline BigBenAussie

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2004, 11:33:04 PM »
I think we're all losing the plot here.

We are starting to think either like PC users, with out thirst for apps, or Console user with our thirst for games.

We have to get back to basics as to what the Amiga actually was in the beginning.

The Amiga was a microcomputer and that is a different concept to either a PC or a console.

A microcomputer was a hobbiests or leisure machine. It was a joy to use an Amiga vs a PC. The Amiga was a plug in and go platform, and if you didn't want to you didn't have to go anywhere near the OS.

We need to go back to the Amiga's roots, it was a games console that could be used as a computer. It was a super Commodore 64.

What we need now is a super Amiga. Unfortunately we cannot obtain as significant an advantage as the original Amiga made. So now we need to make a compromise.

What it was that made the Amiga great is synonymous with what its reputation was.

It wowed in terms of Multimedia and astonishing graphics.
It wowed in terms of games.
It wowed the geeks at the time in terms of its OS, but I don't think people were nearly as interested in that, at the time as us current enthusiasts are. The OS did not sell the system.

The games and the demos and the graphics were slick. The OS is not, but it should be made to be, with at the very least a skinnable interface.

We are all looking at AOS4 to renew the platform and make it more functional, however this is a PC perspective. We shouldn't even be thinking of competing with the PC because from a price perspective, offering the same thing, or worse for more money is not going to cut it.

We need the Amiga to go back to do what it is good at, and the OS is just the icing on the cake for those that want to use its advanced functionality.

If you've done any research on Garry Hare(KMOS) you will see that his background is in streaming media and content distribution. It is obvious that it is his intention that the Amiga pursue that route.

The most popular Amiga, the A500 was popular because you could plug it into a TV, like a console. You wouldn't even think of hooking your PC to TV. You do with Consoles but then you're trapped in the dumbed down gaming concepts of consoles.

IMO the NG Amiga should be a set top box or hifi component. Not quite a console, but a thinking mans advanced leisure machine.

My wishlist for features that could be done from an enhanced front end, like DVD menus would be.
* The ability to Play or Burn DVDs and CDs.
* The ability to play the latest game on demand. (Even old games through UAE)
* Cable (HDTV) ready built in.
* The ability to record programs to HD or DVD like Tivo.
* The ability to browse the internet and access e-mail.
* The ability to easily sync ipod and pdas.

You would automatically be able to download and play the latest music or music videos on demand.

Having games on Demand is a similar concept to the Phantom console. It negates the need for the distribution of software to stores which is probably a tough nut to crack and developers would immediately reap a reward. Piracy could be diminshed because Gary Hare already has a methodology which prevents the entirety of the software to be transmitted at any one time.

As a set top machine it should have a (Radio) cordless mouse and keyboard that you can use from a couch. I have one of these for my PC plugged into my TV and its awesome and very very usable. Not many people would think to do such a thing, but let me tell you are missing out on a concept I believe the Amiga once ruled and can rule again.

The look of the system should be like a "Sharper Image" product. It should be stylish and retro, With shiny metal and glowing blue bits. My preference would be to house a small portable keyboard in a garage underneath like the A1000 and maybe have a little slot for the Mouse so you don't lose it and it can recharge. The case should also be small and slick. The cheapest motherboard should be used, because I would imagine that its the 3d card that makes the difference. It should come with the most kick ass 3d card available at the time, but that component should be upgradable even if the CPU is not. If they want to upgrade then there are A1 desktop boxes that a lot of you are interested in.

The users may eventually be coaxed to use the Amiga OS, rather than a graphical front end, to do stuff like word processing and the like, but right now, its the concept and features that bridge the PC world and the console world, that niche called leisure computing, which is where the Amiga could excel.

I think what we have to understand that the future market, where the brand counts, comes not from providing the same stuff as before, but revamping the new and innovative ideas that the original Amiga touted and is famous for.

We want go faster machines and we'll get them. The general public wants something else entirely, to what they currently have and they want to buy into the Amiga spirit of innovation and slickness. I think we're just lucky that Apple haven't jumped into the set-top market yet, or we'll be finished.


I believe that people would be willing to pay the premium for such versatile hardware.

And now that I've made my sentiments clear let me talk about garnering developer support.

I agree that Amiga developers should ultimately make a profit.
We should have an "Amiga only" software developers website. On such a website developers could share code and develop a common development framework for 3d games and the like. Developers would have to become members at a fee, in order to further develop and use code that is only usable to the membership. The code is not to be used outside of Amiga platform products unless it is heavily advertising the Amiga platform. Technology, games and apps are to be voted on and project managed by volunteers. Effort expended is to be determined by each elected project manager with money going to developers of the core reused code as well as developers that made the particular project.

For instance, the community bands together to build a kickass 3d engine with tasks assigned by the project manager. The project manager assigns share to the developers based on their contributions. Another project like a gran turismo clone, uses the 3d engine. Their effort is added to the core effort and a percentage share is assigned to each of those developers. Eventually when the game is distributed/sold the shares of the profits are distributed.

The share or units, sort of like Amiga money could be used as a motivation for Amiga developers. That Amiga money could also be used to purchase other Amiga products. The goal of the website would be to create killer apps and games for the Amiga ONLY. The status of a developer's Amiga money bank account and shares would be maintained on the website like a hall of fame. This could be displayed because developers are intensely competitive. There should also be competitions to drive the technology further with rewards like more Amiga money to purchase Amiga hardware and software. This is paid by membership incidentally which could slowly be raised as the tech advantage to becoming a member improves. Obviously Amiga money can be used against annual membership or forgone completely once a developer has reached a particular level and is a major contributor.
 

Offline bhoggett

Re: No AROS mentioned?
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2004, 12:01:38 AM »
@dammy

Comparing Linux to AROS is like comparing Microsoft to AmigaOS: not realistic.

Sure, Linux succeeded after starting from scratch, but do you have any idea how many other wannabe operating systems, many of them very neat in terms of what they wre trying to achieve, disappeared without trace? Dozens. Maybe even hundreds.

There's nothing to suggest at this time that AROS will ever cross the boundary between being a geek developer's OS to something that can be useful on a daily basis even on a basic level, like QNX. Linux is in another league altogether. It filled a niche early on, in that it provided a replacement kernel for the GNU project to adopt when the HURD was not yet remotely usable. AROS is not so lucky, and frankly no one would notice if it simply disappeared. The developers need to up their output and their numbers considerably before any of your advocacy would be remotely justified.

@BigBenAussie

I think your post illustrates quite clearly why Amigas will never be a success again. Far too many people are stuck with the 1985 mentality, and believe that attempting to turn the clock back will bring back success. The idea that there will again be custom microcomputers that revolutionise what is available on a desktop at low prices is laughable, as is the thought that people would once again get tied to the custom hard to expand system mentality of 20 years ago.

The success of 20 years ago was to a large extent due to the favourable conditions and lack of real competition. PC's were a joke in terms of gaming or animations and they cost an arm and a leg. Elsewhere there was only the ST or the 8-bit micros to worry about. A market ripe for the taking.

Not so today. You won't beat PCs for price, and most likely not for performance, software or games either. Without massive investment in R&D, you won't beat them on technology either.

Living in the past won't make Amigas great again. Something fresh, visionary and innovative is needed, and the need is to look to the future for answers, not the past.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline BigBenAussie

Re: No AROS mentioned?
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2004, 01:21:38 AM »
@ Defender of the Faith

>I think your post illustrates quite clearly why Amigas will never be a success again.

I might argue the same for your reply. I thought you were a Defender of the Faith.

> Far too many people are stuck with the 1985 mentality, and believe that attempting to turn
> the clock back will bring back success. The idea that there will again be custom
> microcomputers that revolutionise what is available on a desktop at low prices is
> laughable, as is the thought that people would once again get tied to the custom hard to
> expand system mentality of 20 years ago.

Far too many people?? So you're saying that people that will back me up on this and this is a bad thing. ???

I think you're missing the point of my post. Its not about the hardware, its about the feeling of the platform that is the differentiation to new CONSUMERS not the current userbase. The reminiscence to the microcomputer era when computers were fun and exciting are a MAJOR draw. Its what the market has lacked for quite some time.

The stagnation of the PC market I believe counters your point in that people aren't as interested in going faster as they were before(at least until MS releases its next version of its bloatware). We've reached a speed usability threshold.

Power users care about speed, but not everyone else does if the speed of the processor is irrelevant to the thing they want to do. My whole point is that provided a system is usable and looks like the latest thing I don't need to upgrade. Tell me what the average user needs speed for these days? I know it sounds like a dumb question, but the fact of the matter is that speed has reached an acceptable level where everything is possible. AOS will be zippy enough even on hardware that is behind. The natural advantage is that the Amiga doesn't have bloatware slowing it down.
Apart from 3d games why do I need to upgrade?
That's the PC mentality you're falling into. The Amiga should not be trying to be a PC, it should be trying to be a leisure computer. A multimedia device that hides the fact that it is a computer. It should hide all its geek stuff except for those that are interested. I was discussing a consumer device, the quad G5s are for the current userbase, we can't expect newbies to fork out that much, without giving them a taste first.

> The success of 20 years ago was to a large extent due to the favourable conditions and lack > of real competition. PC's were a joke in terms of gaming or animations and they cost an arm and > a leg. Elsewhere there was only the ST or the 8-bit micros to worry about. A market ripe for
> the taking.

An Amiga branded slick multimedia consumer box does not exist at the moment. It is a market ripe for the making too.

> Not so today. You won't beat PCs for price, and most likely not for performance, software or > games either. Without massive investment in R&D, you won't beat them on technology either.

You have missed my obvious point. WE DON'T NEED TO!!! We need to combine the various features into a single unit that are seamless in a way they aren't on PCs.

> Living in the past won't make Amigas great again. Something fresh, visionary and innovative
> is needed, and the need is to look to the future for answers, not the past.

You have to face facts. The Amiga is a famous retro platform and you need to cash in on what it did best. There are new innovative things we can make it do, in terms of what I already discussed, which are harder to implement on a PC desktop. The complexity of the PC desktop is what we should be avoiding in a consumer version of the Amiga. We can play games like the consoles too, but provide much more in terms of usability. The consoles are always going to undercut us as does the PC hardware. The answer is not to compete in their markets. There is a niche market opening up, and along with the goodwill towards the Amiga it is ripe for the taking, and its a pity you can't see it.
 

Offline bhoggett

Re: No AROS mentioned?
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2004, 01:43:23 AM »
@BigBenAussie

First of all, I don't call myself "Defender of the Faith". That's a ranking based on the number of posts here on Amiga.org, and nothing to do with me.

Secondly, what you are talking about is a vague re-creation of 1985, without any real specifics of how you are to acheieve this miracle. Yes, I read your post and it contained nothing of substance, just vaguaries like "feel" and "fun computing" etc.

People are not queueing up to buy microcomputers any more. Yes, believe it or not, microcomputer style systems are available and have been for some time. They may be based on PC technology, but the consumer wouldn't know anything about it because everything is pre-installed. Guess what? They didn't sell very well. You know why? Because people are no longer willing to spend money on restricted systems that offer no upgrade path.

There is nothing in the current Amiga systems to  attract new users, even "consumers" as you call them. Amigas run sweet FA, and no developer in his right mind will work to develop Amiga only software that is only likely to reach a market of hundreds at best.

I think this niche you are talking about is an imaginary one, only found in the minds of a few people stuck in the past.

Yes, there are people who agree with you and yes, it IS a bad thing. Why? Because those people only exist within a section of the existing community. No one outside the communtiy would be remotely interested in what you propose, and those are the people that have to be targetted, not the existing community who would buy whatever is put under their nose anyway.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline A3KOne

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2004, 06:01:24 AM »
To be honest, I can only come up with a few possibilities that COULD revive Amiga, and the chicken must come before the egg of software.

The Mini/Micro-itx plays a part in this.
There are many people left who have no internet access that want it but are afraid of computers.  Amiga could market a STB or low end machine that is bundled with a monitor.  Unlike other internet appliances, this machine should not be tied to a particular service IE: MSN or AOL.  The user would be free to choose a local provider that the retailer could recommend.  The machine is then cofigured at point of sale to be the customers internet solution, be it broadband or dial-up.
This would have to be a low cost product to get numbers into use.
The machine could be billed as an expandible system that could be used for other purposes as the user becomes more advanced.  This would get interest from the budget minded set that needs an internet machine for the kids and would like to learn to do their taxes on it...etc.
As machines are sold, the software will come... maybe slowly at first, but it could snowball...then again, this may stand a snowball's chance...
I know... some people are thinking that this solution already exists, but it really does not, or at least not in widespread distribution.
Price is paramount and it may be necessary to run extremely low margins for some time.

Just my two cents.
 

Offline stefcep

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2004, 07:31:22 AM »
I think there is a deamnd for an alternative to Windows.  I mean the local PC mags periodically do features on moving over to Linux, telling redaers just how bloated Windows is.  But as always Linux is not that user frindly ie the geek image is still there.  but an alternative is not impossible
 

Offline Hammer

Re: What will drive the New Amiga?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2004, 09:05:03 AM »
@stefcep  

Note that, mainstream Linux/GNU/KDE/Grome distros(e.g. Red Hat 9, SUSE 9, Mandrake 9.1, Lindows 4.5 and ‘etc’) is pretty bloated.
 
Like Linux, Windows XP(NT 5.1) comes in several edition e.g. Windows XP Embedded Edition.
AmigaForever 2016 with AmigaOS 4.1 FE, AMIDuOS\'s Android 5.01, MS Windows 10 Pro X64
Samsung ATIV Book 8 880Z5E laptop with touch screen.
CPU: Intel Core i7-3635QM, 2.4Ghz base, 3.4Ghz turbo.
RAM: 16 GB PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600)
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 8870M (OC) 2GB GDDR5 VRAM.
SSD: 512 GB Samsung 840