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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: rhino on October 11, 2006, 03:59:57 PM

Title: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: rhino on October 11, 2006, 03:59:57 PM
In an exclusive interview with Total Amiga's Magnus Johnson, to be published in issue 25, Jens Schoenfeld reveals Individual Computers latest project. For the last year Jens and Oliver Achten have been working on a cycle-accurate reproduction of the Amiga chipset in FPGAs under the codename Clone-A.



Jens and Oliver will be demonstrating prototype versions of the Clone-A chips mounted in a real A500 motherboard at the AmiWest (http://www.sacc.org/amiwest/index.html) show on the 21st of October. To prove the compatibility of the implementation, even in its current form, Jens encourages show visitors to bring along A500 compatible disks to the show to try on the Clone-A.

As Total Amiga 25 won't be out until after the show, we have published an extract from the interview in PDF format. The extract describes the Clone-A in detail, traces its history and explains the current state of development. Jens also looks to the future at the possible uses for this technology once it is complete. Included in the PDF are detailed photos of the FPGA development boards. The extract PDF is a free download from the Total Amiga web site:

http://www.totalamiga.org/issue25.html (http://www.totalamiga.org/issue25.html)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: TheMagicM on October 11, 2006, 04:23:44 PM
WOW!!!!  Imagine the possibilities!! I WANT!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Markus_Bieler on October 11, 2006, 04:26:43 PM
Good work. Congratulations to Jens and Oliver

This will fit the gab between my two Phoenix-boards.

Markus
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Magic-Merl on October 11, 2006, 04:27:22 PM
Amazing work.  How difficult would it be to implement PCI and AGP onto a board for this type of project?
I would buy one of these like a shot.  Hurry up PLEASE!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: techie on October 11, 2006, 04:57:52 PM
Fantastic project, can't wait for more  :-)

@Markus_Bieler
Quote

Good work. Congratulations to Jens and Oliver

This will fit the gab between my two Phoenix-boards.


Two!?! :-o  Some of us can't even get one  :cry:
Man are you lucky   :-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: TheMagicM on October 11, 2006, 05:12:14 PM
this is the proper way to demonstrate a project that has been in the works.  AI and a few other Amiga related companies should take notes.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Mikey_C on October 11, 2006, 05:45:27 PM
Don't forget the full interview will be in the next forthcoming issue of Total Amiga Magazine.

Please support Total Amiga, take out a subscription today.

Thanks
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Argo on October 11, 2006, 07:03:14 PM
Impressive. AmiWest should be interesting. Too bad its on the West coast.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Matt_H on October 11, 2006, 07:06:20 PM
Ooo, competition in the classic-reimplementation market is heating up! This is getting exciting. I think we'll have some great products to choose from in the next few years.

And extra special thanks to Jens for reimplementing individual CIA chips. The old stock from Commodore isn't going to last forever.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: trekiej on October 11, 2006, 07:16:19 PM
Gimme gimme gimme gimme
I want I want I want
(?)

Has FPGA chips save the day?
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: humppa on October 11, 2006, 07:17:06 PM
@Mikey_C

Quote
Please support Total Amiga, take out a subscription today.


Please support Amiga.org by purchasing an advertisement instead of advertising in the forums.  :-P
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 11, 2006, 07:29:39 PM
Best news ewar!!!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Donar on October 11, 2006, 07:59:51 PM
*dreaming*
Amiga Clone upgadable to (extended)AGA  with A1200 processor slot and Oli_hd's Coldfire Accelerator released too.
*/dreaming*

If i may suggest something: Ramp up the Chip Mem, i hate to decrease colours on Workbench for starting Demos.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: redrumloa on October 11, 2006, 08:04:14 PM
WOW!! Once again, Jens is the man!! :banana: Think of the possibilities!!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Mikey_C on October 11, 2006, 08:27:09 PM
Quote

Please support Amiga.org by purchasing an advertisement instead of advertising in the forums.


Sorry, are you aware that Total Amiga Magazine is a NON profit Magazine? No one gets paid, or gets a bonus or gift. It is put together by dedicated Amiga Enthusiasts.

Like Amiga.org and the rest, we do it because we want to make a positive contribution to the Amiga scene.
The charge for the magazine is for printing, postage and packaging.

We could take out adverts, but then we'd have to raise the cover price to cover it.

Support us, don't knock us, get a subscription today.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: nadoom on October 11, 2006, 09:08:05 PM
I cant wait till 2008 for this ! jens and co quit the day job and get working ;) seriously its great that the amiga community has something more to talk about. an amiga portable game system would really rock, and so would an ITX style amiga with a1200 cpu slot!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: humppa on October 11, 2006, 09:48:34 PM
Quote
Sorry, are you aware that Total Amiga Magazine is a NON profit Magazine?


Nearly all remaining Amiga companies are non-profit organizations.  :-P
So are you a registered charity organization or what?
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: AJCopland on October 11, 2006, 09:54:20 PM
@argo

hmm, too bad it's on another continent you mean!
Damn that ocean! :-D

Andy
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: InTheSand on October 11, 2006, 10:43:27 PM
Wow, great article!

Keep up the good work, Jens!

And Dennis, don't let this stop MiniMig - I'm sure everyone would like to see both projects come to fruition.

 - Ali
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: stopthegop on October 11, 2006, 11:09:28 PM
Keeping my fingers crossed for new HW!!  I'll buy five.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Colin_Camper on October 12, 2006, 01:49:51 AM
@Thread

Who needs the A600 accelerator now when an ITX board is coming!

@humppa

Quote
Nearly all remaining Amiga companies are non-profit organizations.


Fistly this statement is horsehit - the company this thread is mentioning is not a non-profit body.

Secondly. Why is your ego so distorted that you
have to keep the last word even if it means boring everyone on the thread.
Mikey_C was on topic and relevant bringing the Jens interview in Total Amiga to everyones' attention.

Thirdly .. Pah!  :lol:
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hyperspeed on October 12, 2006, 02:49:02 AM
Hey, if there is a gigantic bounty for AMozilla to be ported shouldn't someone set up a bounty for the first person to put a complete Amiga into a single chip and demonstrate it, with AGA compatibility, in a mobile device?

We can keep legacy support but make it an optional upgrade and keep any designs lean and current.

If the custom chips in a chip design works okay - maybe a 68k CPU could be coupled to it.

Does the sold Freescale company own these patents?
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: sknight on October 12, 2006, 03:14:57 AM
I agree with InTheSand! Dennis, don't stop MiniMig!
By the way, it would be nice if Dennis released it under an open source license. ;-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Damion on October 12, 2006, 03:22:23 AM
Sweet! I might have to try and make AmiWest after all. ;-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: LoadWB on October 12, 2006, 05:58:07 AM
Well, this is incredible, and hats off and applause to Jens and Co.  This will breathe new life into the Amiga Classic world for sure.  Now I just wish I would be able to get to AmiWest.  I'm definitely planning on next year... finally.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Oliver on October 12, 2006, 06:55:05 AM
Fantastic news indeed.

It may also put an end to the old 'that's impossible because  blah blah chipset blah blah' statements too.

I think it would be really wonderful if backwards compatibility could be maintained, and further advancements be implemented as well.  Doing largely the same things as older hardware, but faster, with more memory available, and good cheap graphics/sound card support would really be a treat.

There are several old proggies I would seriously consider revisiting with higher performance hardware.  I'm sure it could still only be a hobby machine for me though.

Hats off to Schoenfeld and Kastl!!! :pint: I'll drink to them!!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Methanoid on October 12, 2006, 08:48:06 AM
Damn... now we have to WAIT and WAIT...

At least Jens ISNT like Elbox.. Dragon anyone?  :lol:
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: monty on October 12, 2006, 08:55:25 AM
Thats really interesting news!
Imagine Amithlon accessing the amiga custom chips on a PCI card; that would be sweet!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: humppa on October 12, 2006, 10:04:46 AM
Quote
Mikey_C was on topic and relevant bringing the Jens interview in Total Amiga to everyones' attention.


I didn't have a problem with that. It was the advertising that was unnecessary.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Mikey_C on October 12, 2006, 10:52:23 AM
I give up, some people just can't be helped :-(
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Plus4 on October 12, 2006, 11:29:37 AM
Your post was the only thing that was unnecessary.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: zombi on October 12, 2006, 12:58:23 PM
Quote
Imagine Amithlon accessing the amiga custom chips on a PCI card; that would be sweet!


or Aros, or WinUAE
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Tomas on October 12, 2006, 02:58:13 PM
Quote
I didn't have a problem with that. It was the advertising that was unnecessary.

So, i guess you want total amiga go the same way as all the other amiga magazines? Is not like there is any other way of getting the word out.
And infact they brought us this article for free, so i dont see any problem with including some words about total amiga.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: snowman040 on October 12, 2006, 03:38:20 PM
I'm not too happy with all that Amiga-Clone situation. Yes it's a great work and all, but imagine Amiga in joystick Chinese copies with 1000 games etc. that would take down the platform and all "future" Amiga development. It's strange that Ainc. has no statement about this, or they are just trying to sell another 2$-bang license....

On the other side I really like idea of modular chips that could be used both all-in-one chip and OCS replacement, great work Jens.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: neon32 on October 12, 2006, 04:11:51 PM
I agree with you, i dont like the idea of an Amiga in a joystick either. Especially as the hardware will be clones of the originals chips, that means it will be easy to hack the device and run any game you want on it.

I've been bought many of these new systems in a joystick including the commodore 64 one and they all feel.. well.. cheap to me.

My idea of a good use for this would be to incorperate it into the new Amiga's, i.e Sam etc, and idealy have the Catweasel incorperated too, creating a new system which also plays all your old disks (if they still work) and games.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: XDelusion on October 12, 2006, 06:26:43 PM
I also would not be impressed if all this amounted to was an Amiga in a Joystick. I would be happy if the parts would be cheap enough to make such a thing fall near that price point, but I'd rather pay a little extra for something with a 040, standard PC ports and the like. Something portable so I can do my MOD tracking on the road within my favorite OS.

It would really really be a shame if all this amounted to was a kid's toy.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: snowman040 on October 12, 2006, 06:47:52 PM
Yes, that's what I had in mind as better solution. Even PCI card for PPC boards would be very nice and simple solution to run OCS/(AGA someday?) in native mode...

I'd do that if I had some money :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Methuselas on October 12, 2006, 07:32:05 PM
Good article. Nice to see something happening in Amiga-Land.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Brian on October 12, 2006, 08:02:25 PM
*dream*
Clone-AAA addon for A4000 with support for 8Mb chip.
*/dream*
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Kronos on October 12, 2006, 08:14:31 PM
#snowman

Why would an Amiga-on-a-stick be bad ? And why should it have any (negative) inpact on next-gen-Amigas ?

Sounds like another case of Amiga-paranoia for me ...
Title: I want an AGA chipset in my cellphone!
Post by: ChaosLord on October 12, 2006, 08:46:51 PM
I want an AGA chipset in my cellphone!

That would just be the coolest thing ever!

Are FPGA's small enough to do it?

p.s. it better have 8 megs of chipram.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Tomas on October 12, 2006, 09:18:32 PM
Quote
Yes it's a great work and all, but imagine Amiga in joystick Chinese copies with 1000 games etc.

Is not that the classic has much of a future anyways. And i personally think that even a cheap copy is better than letting all those classic games just vanish. Not many people own a amiga these days, so such a device could be a nice way to play those oldies again. The c64 joystick seemed to be a sucess, so why would not a amiga one be? As long as it is decently priced, there would be not much need in making a copy.

My dream would be to see something like the c64 stick, but with a way to upgrade the games through something like a SD card and also have some expand  options of for example hooking up an additional stick.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Tomas on October 12, 2006, 09:21:45 PM
Quote
I agree with you, i dont like the idea of an Amiga in a joystick either. Especially as the hardware will be clones of the originals chips, that means it will be easy to hack the device and run any game you want on it.

What is wrong with letting people run what they want on it? I think the orginal Amiga owe alot to the bedroom programmers and i doubt it would have been much of a sucess if it wasnt open for 3rd party software. Why should you care if i for example hack my amiga in a stick and connect a keyboard and run octamed on it?

Maybe someone can even make it into a portable gaming device  :-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Dennis on October 12, 2006, 09:39:59 PM
Great project. I knew he was working on this and now he finally announced it publicly. However, I want to clarify some points made in the article.
First of all: cycle-accurateness; Minimig is in fact a cycle-accurate implementation. Offcourse, Jens has access to a full-blown logic analyzer and an initial development team of 3 people which is an advantage in getting all the "wrinkles" out of the system. But still his project is not the only cycle-accurate one  :-) .
Secondly, in the article UAE was mentioned as one of my primary sources of information. This is not the case. Like I mentioned in my thread here at a.org, my primary source of information is the hardware reference manual with UAE and Winfellow as a "backup".
Lastly, Minimig will be opensource! I have picked up the project again after being occupied with other things (moving to a new house  8-) ) and I am considering releasing the source code much earlier. Then the community will be able to get the last bugs out of Minimig and make their own clone.

Dennis
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: redrumloa on October 12, 2006, 09:43:19 PM
@Dennis

Very cool! Thank you for all the effort! I hope you know how cool yor project is! :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: neon32 on October 12, 2006, 10:08:08 PM
@Tomas

I dont have a problem with you hacking into the joystick to enhance it for you own creations. What i would have a problem with is someone hacking into the joystick, adding a flash memory card that holds all the best games ever created on the Amiga and re-selling it for everyone to buy for 30 quid. It ruins the value of some of the best computer games ever created for any computer!

I think we should be more wary about what we are doing with some of these old classics then we are at the moment. Just because they are getting on a bit, does not mean they are any less worthy of being sold at a reasonable price or being put up against any of the latest games coming out today. Kinda brings me onto my oppinions on Amiga abandon-ware in general..

I have mixed feelings about the whole abandon-ware thing. And i think alot of it is just based on people wanting things for free. I mean, if a book becomes old, it doesn't mean it should be sold for free. Games on the amiga were, in my mind, when the great gameplay of the older systems finally met up with graphics that could finally support those ideas on the same level - but not take it too far. Just as a great book or a song never gets old, prime examples of the best games on the amiga are, in my oppinion, about the best games will get on a computer system, no matter how many Mhz you have. After all, we are all human, and theres only a certain amount that our brains can take and still consider something to be fun - Like they say, the simplest games are often the best. If you look at board games for example, monopoly? How old is that game? Yet it is still a great game, and i very much doubt they have plans to start selling off that one for free. Or Mario... Theres so many examples.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Schoenfeld on October 12, 2006, 11:00:12 PM
Thanks everyone for the thumbs-up. First of all, I'd like to point out that it's not *my* project, but Oliver's *and* my project. Of course I'm paying him, but there's no reason to call Clone-A my own project. Further, there's no way to tell who did how much work on the project. We're a team, and what you will be able to purchase sometime in the future is teamwork.

You will have the chance to get to know Oliver at Amiwest next week - we'll both be there.

@Dennis:
Sorry if it looked like I mentioned UAE as your *main* source. Of course I know that you had a combination of all those sources, and like I said, I don't think that this is a bad move. We just chose to do it differently, because we expect our implementation to be more accurate that way.

@all:
Dennis and I have already exchanged a few ideas at the Codex Alpe Adria in Italy this summer. The fact that Oliver's and my approach will most probably produce a smaller design (better-suited for implementing on a single custom chip) was actually pointed out by Dennis.

We're not competitors - we will work together like you would expect members of the Amiga community to do it. As soon as my ITX board is out, I will open up enough documentation for everyone (including Dennis) to port the Minimig source to the Clone-A board. That way, Minimig will have a platform to run on, and everyone will have the chance to compare two Amiga-Clones on the same mainboard. I'm actually happy that Dennis is too busy to publish the sources of his Minimig, because it clearly shows that my (obviously commercial) approach was not influenced by his source.

Jens Schönfeld
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: techie on October 12, 2006, 11:17:08 PM
@Schoenfeld

Too cool, can't wait :-D
I wish all the best for both the Clone-A project and the MiniMig.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Tomas on October 13, 2006, 12:00:42 AM
Quote
I dont have a problem with you hacking into the joystick to enhance it for you own creations. What i would have a problem with is someone hacking into the joystick, adding a flash memory card that holds all the best games ever created on the Amiga and re-selling it for everyone to buy for 30 quid. It ruins the value of some of the best computer games ever created for any computer!

I dont like to see illegal copies being sold either, but i see no difference between selling flash copies and selling discs or cds full of games, as that is happening currently as well. I am very much against people selling even abandonware for profits, but i dont think the system should be locked down as there is so much more legal ways to use it.
I honestly dont think the real hardware or games will have less value because of this.

Quote
I have mixed feelings about the whole abandon-ware thing. And i think alot of it is just based on people wanting things for free. I mean, if a book becomes old, it doesn't mean it should be sold for free.

I have a big problem with people selling it on for example ebay or similar. I do however have no problem with such games being hosted for free on the internet when there is no other legal ways of aquiring this said game. I for example have lotus turbo 3 on orginal floppies, but sadly the boot disk got erased. I then think it is perfectly alright for me to download a backup, as there is no other means of replacing the floppy.
But if the game is new and is still being sold in stores, then it is a whole different case. The only people who lose money on abandonware, is the people who are planning to sell their old copy.

Sometimes abandonware is the only way to relive old classics.. Our 10+ year old floppies is slowly deterioating as well, so it definitely a good thing to have a backup.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 13, 2006, 01:34:41 AM
@ Herr Schoenfeldt:

What I would like to know is what distinguishes your "Clone-A" from Dennis's MiniMig.  Don't get me wrong, I think that it is real neat of you to copy D's initiative and build a real-working Amiga 500 with 3 full time programmers probably putting some extreme overtime in to copy the Amiga chip set "1 on 1". What does it get me though? Why would I choose not to go with a better supported (community wide), faster evolving and especially cheaper (it will be FREE after all!) alternative that is highly customizable/expandable?

What made you decide to do an Amiga 500 instead of let's say an Amiga 3000 anyway? You seem to have the resources to have pulled that off and you wouldn't have any headaches because of a certain open source project that definitely does interfere with your interests. Is that an obvious next step?




@ Mister D (Dennis):

I have been following your progress for a while now and this is actually my very first post as I find that everything I wanted to say has been said by others. I would like to thank you for making the project that you have put a whole years worth of effort into open source. I respect that greatly and am awaiting the initial release so I can take a peek in to what makes MiniMig tick and possibly one day even contribute to the project. Thank you!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: sknight on October 13, 2006, 02:25:52 AM
@Dennis

Quote
Lastly, Minimig will be opensource! I have picked up the project again after being occupied with other things (moving to a new house ) and I am considering releasing the source code much earlier. Then the community will be able to get the last bugs out of Minimig and make their own clone.


Great, Dennis!!! Thank you so much! :bow:
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: LoadWB on October 13, 2006, 05:37:40 AM
To prevent people from making illegitimate Amiga joysticks, the entire community will have to help police and not just give up out of disgust.

Everyone is trying to profit from the "retro" market, quite a few of them without proper licensing.

Opposition to the Clone-A and MiniMig projects because of piracy potential is the same thought process that wound us up with viral DRM, not being able to play some DVDs on video cards with composite output, and so forth.  This is the thought process where everyone is a criminal before ever having the chance to perpetrate a crime.

Keep on trucking Dennis, Jens, and Oliver.  I will now refrain from mentioning ChipRAM :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: amiga_3k on October 13, 2006, 06:58:57 AM
Would there be also a scenario where the re-implimentation of the custom-chips are to be sold as replacements for defunct chips? I mean, that (and the mentioning of a miniITX Amiga) is what makes the Clone-A project interesting to me. Minimig remains interesting as well, mostly due to it's opensource nature.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: CodeSmith on October 13, 2006, 08:50:00 AM
@Schoenfeld

Jens, have you considered selling a basic "amiga chipset" circuit board consisting of the FPGAs plus bare minimum support circuitry with a .1" pitch plug, for use by electronics hobbyists?  this will fill the gap that exists now that no-one manufactures oldskool video ICs any more.  See eg the microVGA (http://www.dontronics-shop.com/product.php?productid=16145&cat=262&page=1) for an example of what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 13, 2006, 10:13:01 AM
Very nice, an ITX board is just what I wanted.

*Starts to save up some money for the ultimate 68k machine*
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Frags on October 13, 2006, 11:45:31 AM
@jen-ss

Dennis has cloned the entire Amiga on an fpga, Individual have cloned the individual (sorry) custom chips separately.  The minimig is nice if you want to run A500 software but Clone-A chips could be dropped into an existing Amiga motherboard or even used as the basis for a brand new one.
That`s how it reads to me anyway.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: snowman040 on October 13, 2006, 01:27:17 PM
@Kronos: if Amiga is to make success in market, then  strong brand is a MUST, if you start making brand with cheap devices like those thing-in-joystick I doubt it will ever reach Apple or even smaller VoodooPC, Alienware brands...

@Tomas: In short therm, it can be success, but I doubt it would sell good enough. Tulip has good selling channels while Amiga has 3-4 dedicated shops in world.

There are many other 'cool' posibilities to make the same retro machine and not to make it cheap junk.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 13, 2006, 03:54:33 PM
Quote
@jen-ss

Dennis has cloned the entire Amiga on an fpga, Individual have cloned the individual (sorry) custom chips separately. The minimig is nice if you want to run A500 software but Clone-A chips could be dropped into an existing Amiga motherboard or even used as the basis for a brand new one.
That`s how it reads to me anyway.



I am not aware if you have actually been keeping close track of the MiniMig project. I would however like to clarify that in both cases (MiniMig as well as Clone-A) the clones are not really 1 on 1 clones. They are realistically the programmers own implementation of the workings of the chip in question. Why you ask? Let me put this to you as simple as I can possibly put it; Both developers have gone about reverse engineering each and every individual chip in the A500 chipset which is necessary if you want to create a real and above all a functioning A500 'clone'. Both developers don't do anything more than take a look at the data that the chips output as a result of a specific input (it's just that Schoenfeldt has a logic analyzer which basically speeds up this reverse-engineering task) and create their own implementation of the chip. That's right you did not read it wrong: it is their own implementation and not a true 1-on-1 chip clone like Herr Jens Schoenfeldt likes to brag about.

Sure, it would be great to have every single chip-implementation built in to it's own FPGA chip however, the general public do tend to forget that FPGA's are not the cheapest of chips. And why waste money on more FPGA's when you can stuff everything on a single FPGA which probably even benefit the inter-chip communication because of the lack of communication busses that span great lengths and is more sensitive to RFI than the same single-chip solution. I am even guessing that Herr Schoenfeldt will initially release a single chip solution (The ITX 15x15 cm board he was reffering to in the interview)  quite like that of MiniMig (which will infact be a 12x12 cm! board). There is quite frankly not much more space on a 15x15 cm PCB unless the developer likes to create a highly complicated design similar to that of a modern (multilayer) motherboard. Aside from the added cost because of it being a multilayer PCB, this adds enough complexity to make the already present EMI problem more complex than it has to be... Ever heard of "Keeping It Simple" ?


@Frags:

As all the A500 chipset's chips have obviously been individually cloned for the MiniMig, I really don't see the fuss about simply sticking each synthesized A500 chip in to it's individual FPGA. Not that I understand why you would want to do something like that in the first place other than possibly designing a drop-in replacement for specific A500 chips. Anyhow, I really don't understand why you think that MiniMig-code could not be used as a base for a new motherboard A500. I obviously am missing your point.

jen-ss (Sander)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hans_ on October 13, 2006, 04:44:47 PM
@everyone that doesn't want an Amiga-in-a-joystick

:idea:

How about an Amiga-in-a-keyboard? :-D

Hans
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: AJCopland on October 13, 2006, 06:50:13 PM
@ hans
Quote
How about an Amiga-in-a-keyboard? :-D


Best suggestion yet :-o

Andy
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hans_ on October 13, 2006, 07:10:39 PM
Quote
As all the A500 chipset's chips have obviously been individually cloned for the MiniMig, I really don't see the fuss about simply sticking each synthesized A500 chip in to it's individual FPGA. Not that I understand why you would want to do something like that in the first place other than possibly designing a drop-in replacement for specific A500 chips. Anyhow, I really don't understand why you think that MiniMig-code could not be used as a base for a new motherboard A500. I obviously am missing your point.


Actually, Dennis' approach has been to replicate the A500 in a behavioural sense based on reference manuals, software emulator code and observing behaviour of the actual hardware. AFAIK he didn't specifically divide it up into the different chips. Hence, it's not guaranteed that you could replace say the A500 Agnus with a Minimig Agnus equivalent. He didn't have to ensure that the timing of all signals connected to/from Agnus matched the timing of the original chip. The Minimig may be cycle-correct in its overall behaviour, but this doesn't mean that the internal signals have the same timing as the original A500. You'd have to reverse-engineer the signal timings for the individual chip and modify the design to take this into account.

Jens Schoenfeld & co., on the other hand, have designed replacement chips that replicate the original chipset's behaviour down to the timing of the signals between them. It's a different approach. This means that their design is guaranteed (assuming they've analysed the original timings properly) to be a drop in replacement for the original chips in a real A500.

This does NOT mean that Dennis van Weeren's approach is any less valid than the one taken by Jens Schoenfeld. Minimig works, although he's not done with bug-fixing yet. Jens Schoenfeld & co. are lucky that they have the tools to work at a lower-level. Both projects should eventually be able to run all A500 compatible software correctly.

Hans
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: pjhutch on October 13, 2006, 07:42:34 PM
What is the point of bringing back 21 year technology again ... unless you are re-starting to build A500 or A600s again.
You won`t get PPC, AGP, PCI or any modern technology, that is what i would wait for, not this.

If they get it production then congratulations to IC, if they get to sell it in reasonable numbers then it would be a miracle...
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 13, 2006, 07:47:42 PM
I have no doubt it will sell very well... If you want PPC/PCI get a Pegasos.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: amiga_3k on October 13, 2006, 08:14:24 PM
If the price is right, a MiniITX sized Amiga would appeal to me, even if it were just and only OCS/ECS Amiga (Minimig). A littlebit more advanced (Jens' Clone-A MiniITX) would appeal more to me. I can surely do with some space-saving on my desk :-)

Imagine the space I could be saving dropping the 21" Mac monitor, the 9600/300 Mac, the A2000 and accessoires in favour of a MacMini with a MiniMig/Clone-A sitting on top of it, both hooked to a TFT monitor ;-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 13, 2006, 08:29:05 PM
Quote
Poster: pjhutch  Posted: 2006/10/13 20:42:34

What is the point of bringing back 21 year technology again ... unless you are re-starting to build A500 or A600s again.
You won`t get PPC, AGP, PCI or any modern technology, that is what i would wait for, not this.

If they get it production then congratulations to IC, if they get to sell it in reasonable numbers then it would be a miracle...
 



The C=64 are even older than Amiga and less wonderfull, and the C=one and C=64 in a joystick are selling very well without the need of any miracle.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 13, 2006, 11:46:56 PM
@ amiga-3k:

Quote

If the price is right, a MiniITX sized Amiga would appeal to me, even if it were just and only OCS/ECS Amiga (Minimig). A littlebit more advanced (Jens' Clone-A MiniITX) would appeal more to me. I can surely do with some space-saving on my desk :-)


Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.




@Hans:

Quote

Actually, Dennis' approach has been to replicate the A500 in a behavioural sense based on reference manuals, software emulator code and observing behaviour of the actual hardware. AFAIK he didn't specifically divide it up into the different chips. Hence, it's not guaranteed that you could replace say the A500 Agnus with a Minimig Agnus equivalent. He didn't have to ensure that the timing of all signals connected to/from Agnus matched the timing of the original chip. The Minimig may be cycle-correct in its overall behaviour, but this doesn't mean that the internal signals have the same timing as the original A500. You'd have to reverse-engineer the signal timings for the individual chip and modify the design to take this into account.



Hans,

It doesn't matter to me how certain you think you are about how Dennis went about cloning the A500 and creating MiniMig. What does actually really matter to me is that you have your facts all mixed up. Dennis has in fact been cloning the A500 chip-by-chip. If you do not believe me, please feel free to read the 850+ posts in the "Amiga in an FPGA: MiniMig" forum topic OR  even contact Dennis on the subject.

As for the accuracy of the actual signal timings; I agree that MiniMig's synthesized A500 chip set might be a little off compared to the real thing. This is no big deal in the sense that it is something that can be fixed in a real short window of time. Although I my self have not done any in-depth FPGA programming as of yet, I am certain that it is something that even I could FIX in a matter of hours with a timing diagram of the original A500 handy.

Oh, why is it that the signal timing has to be absolutely correct again? Aside from the bugs, MiniMig runs everything A500, doesn't it? It is a true A500 clone after all! Did I actually hear you say "drop-in chip replacements"? Have you any idea what something like that would cost if production is not on an impressive scale? Wouldn't you rather spend your money on a reasonably priced modern implementation of the A500 than on a relatively expensive chip in the hope that none of the other chips need replacing? I know I would.


Quote

Minimig works, although he's not done with bug-fixing yet.


Jens Schoenfeldt isn't even done with his chip set yet and he has three programmers and a logic analyzer. Ha-Ha. Besides, I am sure that once he too has quite some bugfixing to do. What a joy.



jen-ss (Sander)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: redrumloa on October 14, 2006, 01:00:36 AM
Quote
Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.


Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: beller on October 14, 2006, 02:01:33 AM
I agree with you, Argo!  I was thinking how nice it was that AmiWest was here in Sacramento, my home town.  

I'll do what I can to post and send up some pics, and of course, there is a webcast.

Bob
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Damion on October 14, 2006, 03:01:06 AM
Quote

Quote:

    Why is is that everyone *THINKS* that Herr Schoenfeldt's A500 implementation is more advanced than MiniMig when this is absolutely not true? I have this itching feeling that Herr Schoenfeldt is the type of salesman that would be able to sell you sand in the dessert. He is great at presenting his products, I must admit.



Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?



Agreed, red... cause that's just W-H-A-C-K.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 14, 2006, 03:18:22 AM
@redlumloa

Quote
Excuse me but did you register specifically to bash Jens?


No, not intentionally no. Well, not unless 'salesman' is a dirty word? I am a reasonable judge of character and have had the great pleasure of meeting Herr Schoenfeldt in person in Maarssen not too long ago, although I am sure that he can't place me because of some other vested interests he might of had at the time. I can assure you that I am not telling tales whenever I use the term "salesman" in conjunction with his name.

The reason that I initially signed up was curiosity on what really is supposed to set apart the Clone-A from the MiniMig (my opinion is that they are different implementations of the same thing, one free one and one with a commercial aim) and the fact that I felt dissatisfied because of the lack of recognition the MiniMig project is receiving after Clone-A was announced publicly, which in my opinion is partially due to the fact that Jens Schoenfeldt has an iconic image in the modern amiga community. I do not think that this is something that you could disagree with me on, or am I wrong to say that?

I must admit that my judgement in the Clone-A vs MiniMig matter could very well be biased due to the fact that Dennis is about to make the best gesture possible; donating hundreds of man hours worth of work on something of great value to the community. I do hope that that is not the case though.

I hope to have validated my registration.

regards,

jen-ss (Sander)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: recidivist on October 14, 2006, 03:53:32 AM
I regularly find great but dated books that cost $29.95  new for 50cents at library or other book sales.And new paperback editions of old classics for $1 or $2.EVERYTHING produced commercially sells for a high price when new then falls in value.Only when most have been lost to accident,worn out or used up do the few examples remaining increase in price,and then only to a small percentage of the people.
 Amiga games are absolutely WORTHLESS to 99% of computer users ,much less the world.

 If someone has the licenses to put a 1000 games on a $49 Amiga Retro Joystick I say it is a good thing because it gets those Amiga games into the hands and minds of people who would never see them otherwise.And if  certain people discover how to hack the joystick and use it like a real Amiga all the better. But I doubt the Amiga  Retro Gamer Joystick will have any serial,parallel,hard-drive or any other capability.

 The company making the joystick could also utilize the technology to make a fully compatible
PCI card such as was once promised.

 The maiden that remains absolutely pure and untouched to the end of her days won't be fondly remembered by her non-existent children!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: redrumloa on October 14, 2006, 04:39:34 AM
@jen-ss

No need to validate your registration to me, I'm not the webmaster. I'm simply questioning because of your constant play on his name. Which if I'm not mistaken, you've possibly even done in your nick. Though I hope I am wrong in my assumption. His name is Jens Shoenfeld, not Herr Schoenfeldt.

Anyhow I think you are off base by believing many people are losing interest in the MiniMig. There is room for a commercial and a free project. I think more people will appreciate both. I certainly do. This community needs something ,ANYTHING new to use that isn't some non-working overpriced reference with a boing sticker slapped on it.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 14, 2006, 10:20:21 AM
2 is better than 1...
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: pixie on October 14, 2006, 10:52:06 AM
Quote
Sorry, are you aware that Total Amiga Magazine is a NON profit Magazine? No one gets paid, or gets a bonus or gift. It is put together by dedicated Amiga Enthusiasts.

You happen to know that even non profit organizations advertise? ;-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: swift240 on October 14, 2006, 03:23:45 PM
I am all for it.
What a brilliant piece of work.


 :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Marco on October 14, 2006, 03:51:29 PM
Holy reimplementation Batman!

Though I would have no interest in one of those joystick things, I do see the possibilities in doing such a thing. Look at how many of those C64-sticks they sold, the revenue from that sort of thing with an Amiga-stick could be used to develop Clone-A further, incorporating ECS, AGA and perhaps further enhancements.

I doubt anything like AAA-compatibility would be doable, mainly since no programs exist for it and the (unfinished) designs are probably in Dave Haynies basement or something but maybe something along the lines of AAA in terms of technical specs.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Egg-Chen on October 14, 2006, 03:57:07 PM
It's a very good news !
I'm waiting for the AGA version. It's OK for me as far as it can run Brilliance 2.0, I will surely buy one !

@Jens
Would it be possible to add one (or two) SID socket like in the C-One to expend the Clone-A audio possibilities ?
Would it be possible to design a Clone-A mother board that fit in a A1200 or better a A600 case ?

Anyway good work and good luck !
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: N7VQM on October 14, 2006, 06:38:04 PM
More dreaming:

*ECS miniITX motherboad with an A3K/4K-style CPU slot complete with INT13
*On-board USB

Yep, I know.  May be too much dreaming there.

Dreaming aside, such a product that included 2 or 3 PCI slots (a Zorro slot is probably asking too much) and a couple nice on-board features like ethernet and maybe USB would be very interesting to me.

If the memory subsystem were fast enough, PC2100 for example, would there even been a need for the Chip/Fast RAM distinction?
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 14, 2006, 09:09:53 PM
@redrumloa:

Quote

No need to validate your registration to me, I'm not the webmaster. I'm simply questioning because of your constant play on his name. Which if I'm not mistaken, you've possibly even done in your nick. Though I hope I am wrong in my assumption.


Well, I guess somehow jen-ss has a similarity to Jens... till I tell you that it's my gaming nick.  The 'jen' part is (was) the clan (Joint Executive Ninjas; feel free to laugh about it all you want) I was in and the 'ss' part are my initials and not to be mistaken the Nazi elite, please. When the a.org registration asked me to fill in a 'nickname', this is the first thing that came to my mind, probably because of the fact that I used to use it a lot. It's actually supposed to be [J.E.N]-SS, but for some reason I couldn't sign up using that nickname (something to do with forbidden characters?).


Quote

Anyhow I think you are off base by believing many people are losing interest in the MiniMig. There is room for a commercial and a free project. I think more people will appreciate both. I certainly do. This community needs something ,ANYTHING new to use that isn't some non-working overpriced reference with a boing sticker slapped on it.


I never mentioned that people are loosing interest. From my point of view there are two things going on here; people are generally misinformed about the REAL facts of A500 clone development AND anything that Jens Schoenfeldt says quite frankly goes. I feel that I have been observant enough to pick that up, but please do correct me if you think I am wrong. I have nothing at all against Herr Schoenfeldt, but I would like to see people maintain a more of an objective point of view on the Clone-A vs MiniMig matter. You could call it skepticism. People just hear things and seem not to even want to look at or even think twice about the real facts before talking these days.




@ Schoenfeldt:

When will you be releasing more specs and/or facts on the possible Mini-ITX board that you plan to fabricate? I am interested to see what you are making of it! Is it going to be a circuit exact copy of an A500, or are you opting for an single-chip solution similar to that of MiniMig? Am I correct to assume that you are attempting to implementing the core processor (68k) in to the FPGA in the sense of building one out of FPGA logic-gates, or are you opting for an FPGA with ready embedded PPC processor (eg Xilinx Virtex-II/Virtex-4 with integrated IBM PowerPC 405 core)? I am interested to know this because the general assumption in the FPGA world is that it is not worth 'cloning' a 68k processor in terms of the shear number of logic gates needed to successfully do so. It turns out that the 68k is quite a complex piece of work.

Can I also ask you to explain to me why exactly your implementation of an A500 clone can be any smaller than MiniMig aside from integrating the 68k and a MMC controller in to the FPGA? I have given it some thought, but just don't seem to grasp the physics involved.




@N7VQM

Quote

Dreaming aside, such a product that included 2 or 3 PCI slots (a Zorro slot is probably asking too much) and a couple nice on-board features like ethernet and maybe USB would be very interesting to me.


To me it would seem like an obvious step to outfit Clone-A with onboard Ethernet from factory, and I think that the Clone-A development team probably has that covered. Remember that Herr Schoenfeldt did mention that he has a lot of idea's that he is looking to incorporate into Clone-A during his interview with Total Amiga. With regards to the PCI/Zorro slots; Because just about everything is possible with FPGA, it shouldn't be too much trouble to add any of the two later on as long as such expansion possibilities have been taken into consideration during the PCB design phase.


Quote

If the memory subsystem were fast enough, PC2100 for example, would there even been a need for the Chip/Fast RAM distinction?


No. Dennis has already gone as far as utilizing a single synchronous bus running at approx. 7.09 Mhz to replace the two distinct chip-ram and fast-ram busses in MiniMig; no problem.



Thanks all!

jen-ss (Sander)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hans_ on October 15, 2006, 05:45:49 PM
Quote

It doesn't matter to me how certain you think you are about how Dennis went about cloning the A500 and creating MiniMig. What does actually really matter to me is that you have your facts all mixed up. Dennis has in fact been cloning the A500 chip-by-chip. If you do not believe me, please feel free to read the 850+ posts in the "Amiga in an FPGA: MiniMig" forum topic OR even contact Dennis on the subject.


Funny, I've been following that thread and I don't recall anything saying that he's been cloning it chip by chip. Sure, he started with the copper coprocessor (which is NOT a chip in it's own right  but a sub-component) and then moved to other parts such as the blitter system. That's the only way to do a project like this. I don't have my facts mixed up at all. Dennis van Weeren has taken an overall behavioural approach. Of course he's implemented each sub-component one-by-one. Just not chip-by-chip. Why would he bother to implement the OCS Agnus first, and then Denise, Gary, etc., when he's trying to replicate the overall behaviour, NOT, the behaviour of individual chips on the board. He was not concerned by the timings of the signals between the individual ICs on the A500 motherboard.

Quote

As for the accuracy of the actual signal timings; I agree that MiniMig's synthesized A500 chip set might be a little off compared to the real thing. This is no big deal in the sense that it is something that can be fixed in a real short window of time. Although I my self have not done any in-depth FPGA programming as of yet, I am certain that it is something that even I could FIX in a matter of hours with a timing diagram of the original A500 handy.


I doubt that someone could fix it in just a few hours. Regardless, if Dennis had the timing info, he could adapt his minimig design to separate into the individual chips if he really wanted to.

Quote

Oh, why is it that the signal timing has to be absolutely correct again? Aside from the bugs, MiniMig runs everything A500, doesn't it? It is a true A500 clone after all! Did I actually hear you say "drop-in chip replacements"? Have you any idea what something like that would cost if production is not on an impressive scale? Wouldn't you rather spend your money on a reasonably priced modern implementation of the A500 than on a relatively expensive chip in the hope that none of the other chips need replacing? I know I would.


Jens suggests that by analysing the timings etc at  a chip-level he should ultimately end up with a more compact design. Added to that, it helps with debugging the design too. I could see an advantage to being able to use some of the old chips when testing/debugging the design. That way you can see the whole thing work, including inter-chip interactions, before you've finished designing the whole system.

Personally I don't care about the inter-chip timing; I don't have an A500 motherboard; and, seeing as the entire design could fit in one FPGA, that's definitely the way to go for a new product (it sounds like Jens Schoenfeld will be doing that too).


One final note: you seem to have got the idea that I think Dennis' work isn't as good as Jens'. Not at all. I like both projects. I'm very interested in the different approaches thay've taken to ultimately try to achieve the same goal. I'm an electrical engineer and I plan to get back into working with FPGAs at some point, so, looking at these various projects could give me some ideas that will be of use later.

Hans
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hans_ on October 15, 2006, 05:56:26 PM
Quote
Can I also ask you to explain to me why exactly your implementation of an A500 clone can be any smaller than MiniMig aside from integrating the 68k and a MMC controller in to the FPGA? I have given it some thought, but just don't seem to grasp the physics involved.


I'm hoping that he'll answer this question too. Possibly some of the signal timings/characteristics are because of things the original Amiga engineers did in order to keep the chip within the transistor-count budgets of the time. For example, making a signal active low instead of active high could remove a few unneeded gates. That's all I can think of personally.

Hans
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: whabang on October 15, 2006, 07:07:55 PM
If you guys pull this one off, then you are truly teh pwn! :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Donar on October 15, 2006, 08:58:34 PM
jen-ss
Quote
What I would like to know is what distinguishes your "Clone-A" from Dennis's MiniMig


I think Dennis stated that he can not provide us with Hardware for MiniMig, it seems Individual computers can provide hardware for people like me, who are to dumb to create their own 6 layer board with an 75W soldering iron on their wooden workbench.  :lol:

Quote
... build a real-working Amiga 500 with 3 full time programmers probably putting some extreme overtime in to copy the Amiga chip set "1 on 1". What does it get me though?


It is said that the plans for AGA chips are lost, i like the idea that Jens and Oliver at one time, first finishing OCS/ECS  will be able to re- implement AGA on real silicon not FPGA. (I think it should be possible if you know all about the inner workings of the chips, right?). I know AGA is old useless technology, bla, bla, nobody need's it in 2006, and real silicon is too expensive either. But i'm a ignorant....so i don't listen.

If you think i'm crazy - here is the rest... They could also extend AGA and implement some/all of the features of AAA. Yes i know, as before, to little, to late in 2006. But i'm a believer...

The Amiga still won the last Demo competition in 2006. Even with old crappy AGA and an 68060. So give the old lady a new make up and she'll be ready to win the Demo Competition in 2025 also.  :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 15, 2006, 11:35:33 PM
@Hans:

Quote

Funny, I've been following that thread and I don't recall anything saying that he's been cloning it chip by chip. Sure, he started with the copper coprocessor (which is NOT a chip in it's own right but a sub-component) and then moved to other parts such as the blitter system. That's the only way to do a project like this. I don't have my facts mixed up at all.


It's engineering custom to split a large project up in to manageable subsections in order to maintain a manageable whole. This is also the case when reproducing let's say the A500 to create MiniMig; This is something we both agree upon.

I would like to quote a single sentences posted by Dennis in the "Amiga in FPGA: MiniMig" thread;
Posted on: 2005/12/5 13:46 (This is his very first post!)
"I have been working on this for almost a year now and so far I have the OCS Agnus, Paula, OCS Denise and both the CIA's running in the FPGA." - Here he states the individual chips that he has running in the FPGA. Still sure that you have your facts straight?


Quote

Dennis van Weeren has taken an overall behavioural approach. Of course he's implemented each sub-component one-by-one. Just not chip-by-chip. Why would he bother to implement the OCS Agnus first, and then Denise, Gary, etc., when he's trying to replicate the overall behaviour, NOT, the behaviour of individual chips on the board. He was not concerned by the timings of the signals between the individual ICs on the A500 motherboard.


Signal-timings are actually an integral part of the greater whole you call 'overall behaviour' of a microchip. There is no way in hell an FPGA reimplementation of a specific microchip is going to behave anything like the original if the timings are way off. I know for a fact that Dennis has not spent excessive amounts of his development time producing a "cycle exact" copy of the original chip, which is quite frankly the essential difference between MiniMig's synthesized Amiga custom chips and that of Clone-A. Aside from the fact that MiniMig is not a 100% cycle exact reproduction of the A500 (mainly due to the lack of a logic analyzer), there is no way in hell the synthesized chip timings (talking about the inter-chip timings here) are *off* anything more than a slight error percentage as it does actually run Amiga software after all. If I am not mistaken, Dennis has already fixed some bugs that he had due to timing discrepancies.


Quote

I doubt that someone could fix it in just a few hours. Regardless, if Dennis had the timing info, he could adapt his minimig design to separate into the individual chips if he really wanted to.


Each and every chip has already been individually defined in this project. As long as D's notes on the source code are clear, anyone that is knowledgeable in Verilog could straighten any timing discrepancies out. The project is going to be released under an open-source licence soon, remember?


Quote

Jens suggests that by analysing the timings etc at a chip-level he should ultimately end up with a more compact design. Added to that, it helps with debugging the design too. I could see an advantage to being able to use some of the old chips when testing/debugging the design. That way you can see the whole thing work, including inter-chip interactions, before you've finished designing the whole system.


Jens is WRONG. The size of the design (in verilog, as it doesn't get any smaller than the size of an FPGA and some elementary circuitry outside of that FPGA)  is ultimately down to how smart abstract and efficient the programmer can reproduce the functionality of the original hardware. This design-size we speak of is then expressed in number of gates utilized etc. Strictly keeping to an 'exact' cycle accurate design could actually very well involve some overhead concerning the resources utilized within an FPGA AND unnecessarily increase design complexity. What added benefit would more overhead and added complexity have the project may I ask?


Quote

Personally I don't care about the inter-chip timing


Neither do I.


Quote

seeing as the entire design could fit in one FPGA, that's definitely the way to go for a new product (it sounds like Jens Schoenfeld will be doing that too).


The entire design can already be found in a single FPGA (well, the chip set anyway, next step would be to integrate an 68k or preferably a smaller -in terms of FPGA resources required- equivalent processor, and the disk-controller which Dennis seems to have been too lazy to integrate in the first place). It's called MiniMig. Dennis is actually in the process of developing the first real prototype of the final version (12x12 cm PCB < mini ITX!). I am guessing that if it works like he intends it to, he will call it "final" and release everything to the community (or so I hope!). Yes, that 'Amiga on Chip' does seem to be Herr Schoenfeldt's intention.


Quote

One final note: you seem to have got the idea that I think Dennis' work isn't as good as Jens'. Not at all. I like both projects. I'm very interested in the different approaches they've taken to ultimately try to achieve the same goal.


No Hans, I am not under the impression that you think that D's work is any less impressive of that of Schoenfeldt. I am just afraid of the fact that whatever Jens says quite frankly goes, if it's up to some people here... I would like to stimulate people to start their own thought process instead of believing a multitude of what other people say -blindly-.


Quote

I'm hoping that he'll answer this question too. Possibly some of the signal timings/characteristics are because of things the original Amiga engineers did in order to keep the chip within the transistor-count budgets of the time. For example, making a signal active low instead of active high could remove a few unneeded gates. That's all I can think of personally.


That would mean that the Clone-A design would not be exactly cycle-accurate anymore but 'within operation limits' like MiniMig.

It's been a pleasure talking to you Hans! You mentioned that you where thinking of getting back in to FPGA development? Will you be participating in the further development of MiniMig when the time comes? :-)



@Donar:

Quote

I think Dennis stated that he can not provide us with Hardware for MiniMig, it seems Individual computers can provide hardware for people like me, who are to dumb to create their own 6 layer board with an 75W soldering iron on their wooden workbench.


Actually, I think that Dennis just doesn't want to get into all the hassle paired with the whole mass-production aspect of things and he seems to care about the money involved either, so you are probably right about the fact that Clone-A will provide hardware for the non-technical Amiga users amongst us. We shall see what the future has in store for us.


Quote

It is said that the plans for AGA chips are lost, i like the idea that Jens and Oliver at one time, first finishing OCS/ECS will be able to re- implement AGA on real silicon not FPGA. (I think it should be possible if you know all about the inner workings of the chips, right?). I know AGA is old useless technology, bla, bla, nobody needs it in 2006, and real silicon is too expensive either. But I'm a ignorant....so i don't listen.


I happen to know of some hobbyists that are considering to incorporate AGA in to MiniMig as soon as it's source has been released. It aparently isn't too much of a problem. Ah, Shhhssst! Don't ask!

AGA could be re-implemented on real silicon as long as you do have extensive knowledge (could be documented knowledge) on the inner-workings of the chip; no-problem. It can even be done without the extensive knowledge of the inner-workings (reverse engineering), but would just take longer... Still no problem though.

I don't get it. Why would you say that Jens and Oliver would re-implement AGA on silicon instead of FPGA when Jens clearly stated (in the Total Amiga interview) that he'll try to keep his future hardware reconfigurable (FPGA?). What am I overlooking here?


Quote

If you think i'm crazy - here is the rest... They could also extend AGA and implement some/all of the features of AAA. Yes i know, as before, to little, to late in 2006. But i'm a believer...

The Amiga still won the last Demo competition in 2006. Even with old crappy AGA and an 68060. So give the old lady a new make up and she'll be ready to win the Demo Competition in 2025 also.


Start learning Verilog and warming up those precious hands of yours! 'Believers' like you are destined to be at the heart of projects like these as a driving force. When the old lady wins the demo competitions in 2025, we all know who to thank. I guess that I'll be buying the beer! :-)


jen-ss (Sander)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Donar on October 16, 2006, 08:22:23 AM
Hello,

Quote
Actually, I think that Dennis just doesn't want to get into all the hassle paired with the whole mass-production aspect of things and he seems to care about the money involved either.


OK, wanted to say the same but probably failed. So still no Hardware.  :-)

Quote
Why would you say that Jens and Oliver would re-implement AGA on silicon instead of FPGA when Jens clearly stated (in the Total Amiga interview) that he'll try to keep his future hardware reconfigurable (FPGA?). What am I overlooking here?


I meant they could, so you could if you/your friends add AGA to MiniMig. See if you would have asked for a new board with AGA a year before most people would have told you that it is impossible. Look at some (first) Responses to Dennis thread- "You don't happen to be Mick Tinker?" and so on.

So, if Dennis or Jens and Oliver are able to implement it on real silicon the first step is done.

Jens stated that he could come up with a small design, for an Amiga in a Joystick if some investor ask's for it. So i think this would be real silicon then, or also an FPGA? The DTV for example uses an ASIC so i think it's no FPGA.

Synthesizing this FPGA into an ASIC is maybe too much for a hobbyist approach i think...maybe i'm wrong.

Bye
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: AJCopland on October 16, 2006, 11:01:58 AM
I'd guess that the reason isnt going down the "ASIC+amiga in a joystick" route without proper funding is that the initial setup cost would be quite high. Or at least beyond his current funding.

I'd like to see an AGA version of MiniMig eventually, mostly because i play a lot of AGA games.

I'm also learning VHDL so that when MiniMig is released i can get it and help out with it development. But hardware coding is a little different to software coding that i'm used too  :crazy:
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Schoenfeld on October 16, 2006, 11:49:22 AM
Interesting to see how Schoenfeld-bashing goes on here.

Jen-SS: You're ignoring various facts:

- first of all, please consider writing my name correctly. Single d at the end, not dt.

- it's not three full-time programmers, but two hardware developers on the project - both only part-time.

- Dennis pointed out himself that my approach will produce a smaller design.

- Dennis and I are not competitors. I will even provide hardware for his core to run on. Why didn't anybody read that comment?

- I haven't "copied Dennis' effort". Dennis announced his project early december 2005, where Clone-A was already in the making

Some people might care less about inter-chip-communication. I do care a lot, because it tells me so much about the way the chips work. Being able to communicate with the original chips means that I'm on the right path. This approach leaves no room for errors, where the "could care less" approach leaves freedom for interpretation.

It's also funny to see how many people all of a sudden become hardware experts, just because hardware can be "produced" by writing Verilog code. Let me tell you that this is not the case. You're not becoming a C programmer because you can do a "hello world" in C. Therefore, please take the time to *technically* understand the following (and if you continue bashing, I take it that you're not interested in the truth):

If you're doing your own design and afterwards tweak it to be cycle-accurate, you will most probably end up with a bloated design, so in a way, you're right. Take the example of the "miracle two pixel delay" in Denise that the emulator programmers found out about. If you're doing it cycle-accurate, you have to add a 2-bit delay, which will cost you chip space and routing space.
The trick is to find out what Denise is *really* doing during this 2-cycle delay - apart from delaying. The question "why not output the data when it's already known" must be re-phrased to "why is data not yet ready to be sent to the outputs" - that's why Clone-A will not only use less FPGA space, but also be more compatible by design.

Other things are even Verilog-related. If for example a 10-bit counter value must be compared, you compare the 10-bit value and the counter with a simple expression in the code. No matter how good the compiler and optimizer is, it will always produce a 10-bit comparator, which is correct.

However, on a hardware level, you can reduce things to a minimum if you take other knowledge into account. Let's assume the counter is the horizontal line counter (x-coordinate), and want to generate a signal that (dis-)allows sprite DMA at positions 20 and 772. The Verilog code would be absolutely simple about this, as it's two 10-bit comparators. My approach to the thing is to only compare single bits in order to save FPGA space:
I know that the counter is only counting up, so the number 20 is the first where bits 4 and 2 are set at the same time. My first comparator is only 2 bits instead of 10. That same knowledge used on the number 772: It's the first numer (when counting up) where bits 9,8 and 2 are set at the same time. This comparator is 3 bits wide, so I'm using 5 comparator-inputs where a correct Verilog-implementation would use 20. Saved 75% in this example, which is NOT representative.

I am all for your claim to have people make up their own mind about things. In turn, you should feed them with the correct information, and not just with your way to see the world. If you don't have *all* the information, you know nothing. I explained it on a hardware-level above, but you can also hear it on the radio if you take the song by the Scissor sisters:

I don't feel like dancin'

is a totally different line compared to

I don't feel like dancin' without you.


Jens Schönfeld
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: AJCopland on October 16, 2006, 02:45:06 PM
@Jens Schönfeld
Thanks for posting with an exmaple of why you think you'll be able to make your implementation smaller and more accurate.

Why are you planning (indeed are you at all?) on replicating a 68k processor in the fpga? Wouldn't it make more sense to use an existing seperate processor as the MiniMig is and possibly get it shipping faster (hint hint) :-D

@everyone
And that is another reason to wait for these things to become available before ranting and raving about what they are/will/could be.

No wonder everyone gives up and leaves the Amiga if we flame everyone who does anything like this.

I'm looking forward to seeing both Clone-A AND MiniMig.

Andy
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Hans_ on October 16, 2006, 03:46:29 PM
@jen-ss
Quote
I would like to quote a single sentences posted by Dennis in the "Amiga in FPGA: MiniMig" thread;
Posted on: 2005/12/5 13:46 (This is his very first post!)
"I have been working on this for almost a year now and so far I have the OCS Agnus, Paula, OCS Denise and both the CIA's running in the FPGA." - Here he states the individual chips that he has running in the FPGA. Still sure that you have your facts straight?

You could read that as saying he did each chip one-by-one. Or, that he's implemented all the functionality that each chip contains. Whether he's separated it out into Agnus, Paula etc. in his design files or separated it into functional elements is not specified. Regardless, it works.

Jens has already replied regarding the advantage he has of analysing the interchip signals and timings so there's nothing for me to add there. I agree that Dennis' timings can't be far off as it's actually running OCS software.

Quote
It's been a pleasure talking to you Hans! You mentioned that you where thinking of getting back in to FPGA development? Will you be participating in the further development of MiniMig when the time comes? :-)


Nice talking to you too. I'd certainly like to participate in further development of the MiniMig when the source is released. I'll need to get my hands on a dev-board first and then get up to speed with Verilog. That shouldn't be too hard as I've already worked with VHDL. The languages have some similarities even if Verilog is supposed to be easier to learn.

Now where did I put those AGA specs...

Hans
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Schoenfeld on October 16, 2006, 06:08:15 PM
The 68K in an FPGA is necessary to have an Amiga-on-a-chip. Buying the processor is not an option if you're making it a toy - that would be too expensive. Having the processor in the same chip will save a ton of money.

If you want somebody to spend a seven-digit amount on this project, you have to have something really convincing. The Amiga chipset itself, including memory, might be about as much as a 68000 CPU that you're buying from Freescale, and still, it would not be cycle-accurate: The 68HC000 has slightly different timings than the original 68000 processor on a few instructions. Some games don't like that, they require the exact amount of cycles.

Having the 68K CPU inside the chip has advantages that are geared towards getting risk capital:

- less hardware cost
- less problems in getting the hardware (only one manufacturer of silicon)
- less money to spend on patching games (that is: no money!)

For all of you who want to hack into the machine: The 68K processor can always be switched off. How many of you have an A2000 with an accelerator? In that case, the 68000 is sitting there, gathering dust. It doesn't hurt, but for an investor, it's a huge plus.

Some people asked if re-implementing the 68K would violate any patents. It would not, because it's running in my own microcode engine. There's a software layer in between that emulates the 68K. The microcode engine is geared towards cycle-exact emulation - most instructions must be slowed down for the processor to be cycle-accurate. I could also do an emulation layer for x86 instructions, although this would not make any sense.

The best comparison would be the early-startup CPU of the C-One: It executes Z80 code, and it can jump into 6502 subroutines. The same idea is in the works for the 68000 CPU, just on a larger scale (32 bits instead of 8 bits).


Jens Schönfeld
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: AJCopland on October 16, 2006, 09:28:58 PM
Ah so i guessed right it is for an investment / ASIC implementation point of view. Cool! It makes sense to have everything on a single FPGA including the CPU, in addition to the reasons you give, why bother going over an external bus to the CPU when it can be right there on chip. As well as needing less board space for two chips.

I think that for a commercial product you're obviously going in the right direction. Though i'm thinking that i'll probably buy one of your Clone-A's to have in my living room hooked upto the big TV and loaded with most of my games.

I'll then have the MiniMig for the tinkering, hacking and learning VHDL / Verilog stuff.

Thanks for replying Jens.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 16, 2006, 10:41:23 PM
I think it is a bit sad to see so much bashing when a positive new product like this emerges.

I do not really understand what there is to critique, bash or why write technical comments the length of an essay finding faults, disucussing technical matters not important to general end users of the product or bashing the developers. Why cant some people just keep a more positive attitude.

IMHO the Clone-A is a fantastic announcement and I suggest the developers of it to not look here at the negative comments or do look here at the negative comments and try to convert them into something positive instead. :-)

Looking forward to the finished product!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: redrumloa on October 16, 2006, 10:45:04 PM
@Jens

How about building the Clone-A into a Commodore 64/128 expansion cart? That way C= users would have a hardware Amiga emulator?  :-D
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 17, 2006, 02:37:34 AM
Three...Two...One... Breathe.


@Schoenfeld (no trailing ' t', sorry about that..):

Quote

It's also funny to see how many people all of a sudden become hardware experts ... Saved 75% in this example, which is NOT representative.


Even though you seem to understand the physics of an intelligent design (hardware/software), you still argue that a 100% cycle exact re-implementation of the Amiga chip set will in fact aid in creating a smaller design. A smaller design is the direct result of an intelligent design process and NOT that of a 100% cycle exact re-implementation. I am completely flabbergasted about you even proposing such a thing when you your self give a perfect example of intelligent design & programming in action (your approach on the comparator issue). Especially as you are so bold as to utter harsh word about it being funny that people all of a sudden become hardware experts just because "hardware' can be produced by writing Verilog. That was a definite 'under the belt' blow. There is no reason to become all personal now Mr 'hardware expert', is there? ;-) Let's just stick to fact and leave fiction be.


Quote

I am all for your claim to have people make up their own mind about things. In turn, you should feed them with the correct information, and not just with your way to see the world.


I am glad that you are supportive of my quest to get people to evaluate the information they receive from others. I can assure you that I am trying my best to feed people with all the 'untainted' information that I can get my hands on. From your perspective it might look like I am enjoying a complete Jens Schoenfeld (look, not trailing 't' again, I am finally starting to get the hang of it!) bashing fest; which is not the case. I am not looking to start any personal vendetta or unnecessary problem with you or anyone for that matter. I am however looking to feed people raw facts to the best of my abilities and try and review every bit of information before I post. I am still only human, but then again; so are you! And if there is one lesson that time has taught us, then it's that ALL humans make mistakes. I find it shameful that people (generally that could be classified as loyal followers of which you have many) believe almost everything you say to be fact -period-, even though this isn't always the case. I wish that they all would carefully scrutinize all information perceived. There's no pain in that, is there?


Quote

The 68K in an FPGA is necessary to have an Amiga-on-a-chip. Buying the processor is not an option if you're making it a toy - that would be too expensive. Having the processor in the same chip will save a ton of money.


Yes, definitely. An FPGA implementation of the 68k would save something in the region of three euros per board. It amounts to considerable $avings!


Quote

Having the 68K CPU inside the chip has advantages that are geared towards getting risk capital:

- less hardware cost
- less problems in getting the hardware (only one manufacturer of silicon)
- less money to spend on patching games (that is: no money!)


You will find that I agree with you on the first two points. I don't quite understand #3 however. Am I correct in assuming that you mean to say that using an original 68k, be it a physical one or it's FPGA re-implementation, will save you on patching games all together in the sense of the games being 100% compatible, or am I overlooking something here?  


Quote

If you want somebody to spend a seven-digit amount on this project, you have to have something really convincing. The Amiga chip set itself, including memory, might be about as much as a 68000 CPU that you're buying from Freescale, and still, it would not be cycle-accurate: The 68HC000 has slightly different timings than the original 68000 processor on a few instructions. Some games don't like that, they require the exact amount of cycles.


I sometimes ask my self if you know what you are talking about, just like I did when I read the piece of text quoted above. As I recalled it, the 68HC000's functioning was identical to that of the 68000. I looked it up, just in case I was wrong, and was shocked, flabbergasted an quite frankly blown away at the same time, to find that you're telling STORIES again! Check it out: http://www.freescale.com/files/shared/doc/selector_guide/SG1001.pdf on page number 7, under MC68HC000. The 'additional information' field states; and I quote: "Complete pin and timing MC68000 compatibility with a tenth of the power dissipation".
Aside from the fact that the MC68HC000 listed in the brochure does not come as a DIP, the timing should still be identical (completely compatible) as the packaging has absolutely nothing to do with timings. How nasty is that? You should really get your facts straight Herr Schoenfeld.

Anyway... a more important matter; I am guessing that even if these timing discrepancy would exist, they wouldn't really matter because, and I quote you yet again:
 
Quote
Some people asked if re-implementing the 68K would violate any patents. It would not, because it's running in my own microcode engine. There's a software layer in between that emulates the 68K. The microcode engine is geared towards cycle-exact emulation - most instructions must be slowed down for the processor to be cycle-accurate.


... because of the magical 'microcode engine' and an original 68k emulating software layer. Am I right? Left? Right... patents? I won't even attempt to go there and presume you have all ready done your fair share of homework and lawyer consultations; more than I have done anyway. :-)

May I ask where you are 'sourcing' the 68k FPGA implementation code from? Would it be from opencores.org? I am assuming that you are not going to waste precious development time/money and resources on designing your own 68k implementation from scratch. Oh, and I definitely would like to hear more about your microcode engine if you care to share with me!. I can't quite envision what it is/does and how it works so I would fancy an all-over... I am guessing that more people might just be as interested as I am.


Herr Schoenfeld, I salute you and await you're reply. :-)



@AJCopland:

Quote

No wonder everyone gives up and leaves the Amiga if we flame everyone who does anything like this.


If WE flame? So we're flaming now? How sad is that...



@cv643d:

Quote

I think it is a bit sad to see so much bashing when a positive new product like this emerges.

I do not really understand what there is to critique, bash or why write technical comments the length of an essay finding faults, discussing technical matters not important to general end users of the product or bashing the developers. Why cant some people just keep a more positive attitude.


I find that it is good to scrutinize everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. Especially when it comes to new products because it generally ensures some form of quality. Even though not all the 'general end users' are interested in- or have the capability to follow up on the 'technical matters', they're still equally important and never cease to exist. And if I didn't have a positive attitude I would probably of never posted anything to begin with. I enjoy the technical tidbits oh so much! :-)



jen-ss (Sander) signing off. Thanks!
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Dr_Righteous on October 17, 2006, 03:38:39 AM
@Schoenfeld

Thunderous applause to you Jens, again I say you rock!

Obviously your focus is the eventual move to a Mini-ITX based system, which is totally killer (tho I hope a full ATX design is also in the plans)...

But have you considered possible improvements to the "drop in" chipset? An upgrade perhaps to the chips in existing OCS/ECS systems? I'm sure there are numerous improvements to performance that can be made.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Schoenfeld on October 17, 2006, 09:48:12 AM
Sander:

You demand to be polite to each other, yet you're claiming that I'm telling "stories" about the 68HC000 processor having different timing compared to the NMOS 68000.

I will *not* elaborate on the details, as this would give others valuable hints on where to debug their designs. You're free to get back to me with a request for a program that runs on a real Amiga and on Clone-A, but not on an Amiga that uses the 68HC000. Clone-A will be demonstrated at more shows, and you'll surely be at one of them, right?

The real world is different from what datasheets promise. If a datasheet is talking about "same timing", it probably talks about the same bus timing. I won't question that, but if you're talking about timing in computer terms, it's like you're talking screws in cars. A Mercedes will surely use the same screw as a Volkswagen in some spot, but it still does not make them the same. You have to specify *what* screw, which also applies to "timing" in computer terms: Bus timing? Instruction timing? IRQ timing? I was talking about the number of cycles that an instruction takes, and there's a difference on the HC000 that the datasheet does not cover. Hardly anyone will notice, and if one will and reports the error to Freescale, they will ignore it. I have written extensive eMails to Freescale because I found a bad error in the 68030 manual, but they're all unanswered as of today.

Patents: I did that research in 2002 before I started putting money into the C-One. Laws have not changed since then. The 68000 is a microcode engine, and it's known what's in there: Patented code is public as you may know. However, that microcode engine is totally different from mine, the patented code does not even run on my engine. This is nothing I can demonstrate yet, but again, you seem to be the kind of guy who does not forget, so please get back to me when I'm ready to prove what I'm claiming here.

You're saying that everyone should make up their own mind, yet, you're quoting a single source and claim that it's the truth. You're right that it's the vendor (or at least the company that came after), but this also shows that you have never worked with datasheets to an extent where you encounter errors in the documentation. At the risk of repeating myself: If you don't know all the details, you know nothing.
It's fairly common that chips don't exactly behave the way you'd expect them to behave if you read the datasheet. I started learning about that when I made my first commercial design (the Graffiti), and it continues through all my other designs.

Speaking of experience, I have no idea who I am talking to. Let us know what designs you have done so far, or if you're the Wildstar-kind-of-guy that likes to talk BS to keep others talking. So far, we've seen nice rhetoric and only technical half-truths from you.

The rhetorics remind me of a teacher from California who has too much spare time... No insult, I'm just trying to find out who you are because you claim we met in Maarssen.

Jens Schönfeld
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Schoenfeld on October 17, 2006, 01:17:11 PM
Dr_Righteous:

I will not make a drop-in chipset for old boards. The small boards are only for debugging the design. The fact that they're sitting in an A500 does not imply that I'll be making an A500-like machine. The chipset of the Amiga has been (almost) the same from A1000 to A3000, and like I said in the interview, the step to AGA is almost none.

Increasing performance would also mean to use faster memory chips. Most A500+ models have 60 to 70ns memory, so a double-CAS access seems possible, but that will not be enough to do AGA. You'd have to replace all chips and make a new data path towards the accelerator. That's actually more than a new mainboard, so we better forget about that.

Jens Schönfeld
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: bonkers on October 17, 2006, 02:06:42 PM
Thanks a lot for this, most exciting news since ... well I guess since the a4k was released. For me this is much more interesting then Pegasos or A1. Owning quite a few Individual Computer products that all works brilliant so I'm sure this one would be of the same very high quality.

Ideally for me I would love to have a 060/AGA board (with a clockport for USB) that could simply replace my current setup for demo-dev.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: Dennis on October 17, 2006, 08:12:06 PM
Wow, this thread is certainly living up to what I have come to expect of a typical Amiga discussion. How I miss the days of c.s.a.a.  :-(
Anyway, I would like to add a little to the technical side of the disccussion:

@Hans_ / Jen-SS
Minimig is in fact internally split up in an Agnus,Denise,Paula,Gary and even an Amber module(for the scandoubler  :-D ). It was the easiest way to do it as you need to reconstruct the bus-timing in some way in order to be cyle-accurate enough for games/demos. In the Amiga chipset, Denise and Paula are relativily "dumb", that is, they behave just like a bunch of registers and do not have any DMA generators. They just sit and wait to be addressed and supplied with data by Agnus. Information is therefore one-way only; Agnus->Denise/Paula (or more precisely RAM->Denise/Paula). The exception to this is that Paula can reset some pointers in Agnus by asserting the dmal line which in fact also exists in Minimig. Agnus is the most complicated chip and generates all addresses and DMA transfers. Agnus is also the chip that contains the copper and blitter coprocessors.

@Jens
You say the 68HC000 has different execution timings for some instructions than the original 68000. If so, they are not documented anywhere by motorola/freescale. Why I believe you (why would you lie?), I do not believe it would break a lot of games. The Minimig uses an MC68SEC000 which doesn't even have an 'E' clock and still it runs *every* game I tried without patching, in any case enough for a joystick toy.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: mr_a500 on October 17, 2006, 09:26:26 PM
Quote
jen-ss wrote:
I find that it is good to scrutinize everything, and I mean EVERYTHING.


I have scrutinized your posts and have come to the conclusion (how shall I put this to avoid violating the posting guideline regarding personal attack... oh yes attack the post, not the person) your posts are the posts of an obnoxious twit.

You need to learn some manners. You can easily disagree with someone without being rude and insulting. When you were a baby and your mother offered you a candy, did you say "You obviously know nothing about candy. Can you explain to me why you gave me a green candy when orange is obviously the best??"

@Jens

Please don't let the ramblings of a few rude people put you off your valuable Amiga work. I'm sure there are hundreds (thousands?) who are very grateful for your (and Oliver and Dennis') efforts. :-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: jen-ss on October 17, 2006, 09:52:04 PM
First of all, let me state that I have absolutely no interest on revealing any personal and/or professional details on my self that could possibly indiscriminate my person (be used against me). I am however professionally involved in the field of engineering (electrical/mechanical) and currently specialize in the development of advanced autonomous control systems. This is as far as I can go because of the serious repercussions I would face if I would reveal any information considered classified. Don't worry, I don't expect you to understand.

No, as a matter of fact. I don't think I would be attending any of your (recent) Clone-A demonstrations. I have no reason to believe that what you want to achieve is impossible and will await the finished product patiently. :-)


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The real world is different from what datasheets promise. If a datasheet is talking about "same timing", it probably talks about the same bus timing. I won't question that, but if you're talking about timing in computer terms, it's like you're talking screws in cars. A Mercedes will surely use the same screw as a Volkswagen in some spot, but it still does not make them the same. You have to specify *what* screw, which also applies to "timing" in computer terms: Bus timing? Instruction timing? IRQ timing? I was talking about the number of cycles that an instruction takes, and there's a difference on the HC000 that the datasheet does not cover. Hardly anyone will notice, and if one will and reports the error to Freescale, they will ignore it. I have written extensive eMails to Freescale because I found a bad error in the 68030 manual, but they're all unanswered as of today.


Jens, calm down. Every respectable engineer knows that data sheets should not be taken for granted. Actually the 68000 vs 68HC000 compatibility issue has just as little to do with data sheets as it has to do with screws in cars. Fact is that even if there was an obvious timing discrepancy, Freescale would be compelled to denote it's existence as their processors are used in many application critical applications, both commercially as well as government operated. Fact is that if there really is any actual timing discrepancy (I have reason to doubt the validity of your accusations), they would be well with in normal 68000 operating limits so that the two processors can exist interchangeably. Face it.

Why is is that Dennis is using a  68SEC000, which is an embedded processor that has does actually differ to the original 68k, and doesn't seem to be experiencing any problems running OCS software? This, I am sorry to say, leads me to conclude that your claims are in fact flawed and probably no more than a part of an elaborate marketing technique that you employ to trap investors. I sure hope that the latter is not fact.


Do you know what is starting to annoy me more than having to argue about technical tidbits?

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You're saying that everyone should make up their own mind, yet, you're quoting a single source and claim that it's the truth. You're right that it's the vendor (or at least the company that came after), but this also shows that you have never worked with datasheets to an extent where you encounter errors in the documentation. At the risk of repeating myself: If you don't know all the details, you know nothing.
It's fairly common that chips don't exactly behave the way you'd expect them to behave if you read the datasheet. I started learning about that when I made my first commercial design (the Graffiti), and it continues through all my other designs.

Speaking of experience, I have no idea who I am talking to. Let us know what designs you have done so far, or if you're the Wildstar-kind-of-guy that likes to talk BS to keep others talking. So far, we've seen nice rhetoric and only technical half-truths from you.

The rhetorics remind me of a teacher from California who has too much spare time... No insult, I'm just trying to find out who you are because you claim we met in Maarssen.


The fact that you are bestowing extremely blatant remarks upon me is just plain childish. You are very bold indeed when it comes to telling people that you mean no insult after having spoken nothing else but insults and you seem to have an ego problem. I once thought more of you Jens Schoenfeld, but this is just plain outrageous. If this is the level you wish to proceed at, then you are wasting my time and I am done talking with you.


Have a nice evening.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: cv643d on October 17, 2006, 10:47:05 PM
The drama  :lol:

You know jen-ss I agree fully to the mr A500 poster. You could have posted your posts in a more gracefully way and not in such an agressive way, almost attacking a person. Not to say I am attacking you right now, I don't so please do not missunderstand me. But europeans sometime have a hard time understanding what is irony, what is serious, and what is a joke in an english text or forum post. I can somewhat relate to that sometimes since I am from europe. That is why it is so important to be very humble when writing posts in foreign languages. Like I write now.

I think that is maybe what has happened. You wrote you long detailed essay like post in a good mood and though that the readers would read your post in the same mood as you wrote it. Instad we felt a bad mood in your post and though you where negative towards this project and the developer. :angry:
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: B00tDisk on October 18, 2006, 01:36:46 AM
I just want to say something here regardless of any bruised feelings that some folks may or may not have and that is this: if or when this new project ever sees the light of day, providing it's an evolutionary step forward I *will* invest in one.
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: neon32 on October 18, 2006, 01:49:30 AM
Man, you get some weird people in the Amiga community.  :-)
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: CodeSmith on October 22, 2006, 08:48:47 AM
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This is as far as I can go because of the serious repercussions I would face if I would reveal any information considered classified.

Remember kids, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you...
Title: Re: Individual Computers Announces Clone-A Project
Post by: acidrain on November 05, 2006, 09:39:08 AM
Well, it was demonstarated already, but there no news about it! On russian amiga site (amiga.org.ru, try online translator) there all most a war between pegasos and classic amiga users. But here is quiet.
So maybe some one will add a news about clone-a demonstration on this site? =)