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Author Topic: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS  (Read 14194 times)

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Offline biggunTopic starter

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ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« on: February 09, 2015, 06:31:48 AM »
Hi

here is  Video showing how ADOOM in full screen mode runs on Amiga 600.
http://youtu.be/bS_tgDB6g9U

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 07:08:21 AM »
Quote from: danbeaver;783367
Sounds better with the Prisma card


Regarding sound on A600.
The A600 is on its own fast enough to play MP3 in 44 Khz and 14bit quality.

Here is a video showing it:
http://www.kipper2k.com/a600mp3/newvid/newvid.html

I find that the MP3s in 14bit sound very good already...

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 07:24:09 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;783371
Impressive...well done :)

Now can we have the same thing for 1200/3000/4000 please with a bigger FPGA and more memory... Thanks


The next generation cards are in testing and will come...
In parallel we work on making the CPU fully 68060 compatible.... But faster much faster...



Nova, when you ask for more memory..
Are the any games you work on, e.g. like Scumm games which need more than 64 MB ?

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 07:53:45 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;783375

If we get enough MIPS then ambitious projects like DosBox can be usable on real hardware without using an RTG card.


Yes with enough Mips you don't need Netsurf, then people
can use Internet Explorer in Windows running on PC-Task :-)


Regarding RTG, I think adding RTG to all the next card would be good.
With RTG and enough Mips Amiga will make a big jump in usability...

Are there any good games available to port which require 15/16/24 bit color?

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 12:44:50 PM »
Quote from: Rob;783388
A modern solution to extra memory is extra memory since memory is not expensive these days.


The discussion about 128 MB, or 512 MB or better 2000 MB of memory makes me smile a little.

Right now Igor CPU Card is positioned in the market as upgrade for old A600 systems.
Isn't Igor card the Vampire 600 priced similar as an ACA 500 ?
Or priced like another 68020 CPU card?


Please help me understand this.
My impression is some people want something real high end, right?
Did I get it right. That people would prefer to pay a premium to get a premium card?

On the other hand the Apollo/Phoenix Core can also
provide performance greater than 68060 for a price of a 68020 card.
So one could also make a budget card offering performance higher than 68060 for the price of a budget 68EC020 card.

So what do people want?

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 07:28:47 AM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;783482
This AGA port needs 400 MIPS to be usable (give or take)

Maybe one day ;)



How to you estimate the 400 Mips requirement?
How many times faster than a 50 Mhz 68060 would the system need to be?

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 07:43:52 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;783441

Making new accellerator cards for Amigas in 2015 that have LESS RAM than an old 1990s Amiga is lame from the consumer's perspective.  Amigas already had 256MB of ram waaaaay back in the previous century.  


This is a very simple to understand question of price.

Designing a small CPU accelerator with 1 or 2 memory chips on board
and a limited number of PCD layers in one taks that takes a certain time to do and to test.

Desiging a CPU accelerator which has many times more memroy chips, more PCD layer and or even DIMM sockets where you will need to test various DIMMS is a project which takes much longer.

The first project might need 3 month of pure working time.
A dedicated hoppy developer like Igor Majsta can do this using his Winter and Summer holidays and the weekends in between them. This means such a project could be done in parallel to having a normal job.

The second project will take longer, many month longer.
This means it will not only take longer but also take more money to do.

Now the AMIGA market is not really big.
Does it make sense for an developer to take 6 month unpaid holiday from work
to be able finish to accellerator in time?
Can this lost income be compensated by selling Amiga CPU card with more memory?


My guess is that the most sensible solution is to focus on developing a good working, well tested CPU card for a good price.

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;783458
The A600 is permanently perpetually stuck in 32-bit mode forever and ever and ever.  There is no way to switch into 64 bit mode.  It can't be downgraded into 24-bit mode.  It can't be downgraded into 16-bit mode.  It is just STUCK at 32-bit mode period.  The End.

Hmm actually this is all not true what you say.
The A600 was shipped with a 16/32 bit CPU runnign in 24bit address mode.

So be default you run 32bit code, and of couse you can also run 16bit and 8bit instructions.,
And default the CPU support 24bit address mode.


The Vampire CPU upgrade which this topic is about now replaces the CPU completely.
The Phoenix is SuperScalar and fully 32bit and of course also offers 32bit address mode.
Now enabling 64bit  addresses in Phoenix takes me a *smile*.
This is would absolutely be possible to turn all your existing old AMIGAs into 64bit systems.

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 11:52:16 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;783510
I do not know if it si possible on the Vampire but the other new cards will be ready off-the-shelve cards so I do not believe that you can add RAM.


People should learn to have realistic expections - then the risk for dissapointment is lower.


People also need to make realistic comparisons:
For example:

The ACA500 offer 2 MB memory and about 1.0 CPU MIPS

Igors V600 offers 64 MB fast memory and about 80 CPU MIPS



Realistic expectations is to double the values again.

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 07:34:36 PM »
Quote from: kolla;783544
For me, 64MB in an A1200 is a much unwanted downgrade.


Why do you talk about this?
Did anyone ever say that A1200 Vampire cards would have 64 MB memory ?
No ...

The A600 card has 64 MB.
And 64 MB and 80 Mips is the best one could ever get for an A600.

Offline biggunTopic starter

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 07:14:06 AM »
Quote from: kolla;783610
Ok, I drink the cool aid and accept that all 68000 systems are 16/32bit and also jump around happily that someone is working hard to give us 64bit execution capable m68k!! Seriously, this announcement is HUGE, it should have its own story!! :banana: :banana:



Well 68000 did have 32bit instructions

This operations "32bit-val" + "32bit-val" = "32bit-val" could be done with a single instruction.
So by this definition the 68000 was a 32bit CPU.

Also the registers of the 68000 are 32bit wide.
Having 32bit wide registers also would make it a 32bit CPU.

Later 680x0 CPU did then instructions faster.
This chart shows very nicely the improvement over time.
http://www.apollo-core.com/bringup/minibench.pdf

While the 68030 was running AMIGA OS ver fast
You see very nicely how "weak" the 68030 design was compared with an 68040 or compared with the 68060.

For example doing this instruction:
ADD.l #$1234567,D0

The 68030 @ 25 MHz only reached about 4 Mips
The 68040 @ 25 Mhz reaches about 23 Mips
You see here clearly how the CPU was internally improved.

The 68060 if running @ 25 MHz would have reached 15 Mips here.
The 68060 was clearly the best 68K core but its design also had some weak spots.

Phoenix in the Vampire1 @ 25 MHz would reach 21 Mips
Phoenix underperforms here a little as we had to cut of an arm and a leg to make it fit the Vampitre1.
Phoenix in the Vampire2 @ 25 Mhz does reach 42 Mips

See see here clearly the evolution of the cores..
If you compare the 4 Mips of the 68030 with the 42 Mips of Phoenix you see that at the same clockrate the improved internal CPU architecture gives a 10 times speed up.

I think this example shows again how pointles comparing a Core by the clockrate is.
Of course a lot more then 25MHz can be reached....

I wonder if "grading" the core releases by their minibench scores would make sense.
Or maybe introducing a virtual clockrate like "performaning like a 68030 @ 400 MHz" would be usefull?

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 03:21:58 PM »
Quote from: kolla;783629
Biggun: so how about that "64bit execution" thing?/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong. I did not say that 64bit is mandatory for AMIGA OS.
It was just that someone said 68K Cores can not be 64bit ever.
And this is not true - technically it takes me only little effort ot make the CPU 64bit.

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 07:59:33 PM »
Quote from: kolla;783638
But then it would no longer be m68k, would it? :)

Why not?

Sometimes people ask some funny questions..

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 09:27:54 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;783683
I've occasionally wondered what the 680x0 might have become if it had  achieved the same sort of popularity as the x86. The latter had a lot more severe obstacles to overcome with respect to the horrible ISA, historical transitions of the architecture from 16 bit to 32, then 64, not to mention things like virtualization. Yet it managed to succeed thanks to lots of money and skilled engineers working around said train wrecks.

The 680x0 is unarguably a superior architecture than the x86 was when considering forwards compatibility. 32 bit registers from day 1, virtualization issues resolved by the 68010, sensible instruction layout, good fpu integration (the x87 is a nightmare in comparison). Imagine what the same reservoir of cash and talent could have accomplished with it.

It's not hard to imagine the registers growing to 64 bit, a few new instructions for 64 bit wide operations and additional SIMD extensions being added for multimedia.

Meanwhile, in reality...


Yes in fact, Phoenix does touch many of these areas already.

A number of improvements are in Phoenix

* some address mode restrictions removed
* more work registers
* fully pipelined FPU
* We even have developed a Vector Unit ...

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Re: ADOOM on A600 running 22-35 FPS
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 07:50:28 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;783714
Mot made a choice with these restrictions. The reason why d(PC) and d(PC,Xn) is read-only is a good one:


Of course I can also see the "idiology" of MOTO behind it.
But lets also look at the reality.
During the project we did disasm so many programs and looked wwhat they do and how well the CPU can do it.

There were many programs programs doing this often and very often
lea (d,pc),A0
addq.l  #1,(A0)

So if a programmer or compiler decided to update local variables in such a way
and does this 1000 times in his program - then so be it.
With the old address limitations he can still do it. But the programs executed 1000 instructions more, and is 2024 Byte bigger.