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Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2002, 09:31:02 PM »
anarchic_teapot wrote:

Quote
Remember that this is a limited-interest mobo for the moment, and IMO it is highly unlikely that any other dealer for Europe actually exists. So you'll still be buying from Eyetech.


Mai themselves will sell it (just like they did with the "evaluation" Teron CX) and most likely Terrasoft and Total Impact will be among the initial distributors, as well as Inguard since they already sell the "evaluation" version. With this nifty Internet invention I don't care any more about which continent my vendor is located on, than I care about which trademark is used for the stuff I buy from him. (The firstly mentioned concern could however be a valid concern for me, in contrast to the trademark nonsense.)

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Remember that the firmware, which basically enables the mobo to boot, and the Amiga ROM are not the same thing, neither conceptually nor physically. I suspect that when they talk about not necessarily using the same firmware as the A1, they mean that there may be a few differences in the code, eg default OS may be Linux rather than AOS.


If the "anti piracy" (hardware-licensee confirmation) code will be in a separate ROM or in the board's firmware is irrelevant. It has the same technically irrelevant purpose either way.
When Bill Mueller says he doesn't know what firmware will be shipped with the boards, he means that he doesn't know what firmware will be shipped with the boards. "Default OS" has nothing to do with it, Mai is a hardware vendor. There is no "default OS". Since I can't think of any firmware suitable for this kind of hardware that can't boot Linux (other than a custom-written solution, which there is none from Mai), and Linux is the predominant "POP OS", it'd be kinda silly to flash the boards with a Linux-incompatible firmware. Third party distributors like Eyetech, Terrasoft et c. as well as end-users can of course reflash them with whatever they like.

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Incidentally, I'm pretty sure it's the debugging etc work on the A1 which now enables MAI to market their board in this way.


WTF? Eyetech has nothing to do with any hardware development of neither this board nor the "evaluation" version (the "A1 developer version"). What Mai's customers, like Eyetech, do with software like the firmware has nothing to do with hardware design or Mai's marketing of their own products. Bill Mueller is the sole developer of the Teron CX / A1, and he is one of the two developers at Mai who do all motherboard designs and signal integrity development. He does not "know what or who we do our contracts with".

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This is good news, since it has spread the costs of A1 development and should also reduce the final cost of the boards to users since more are expected to be sold.


Yes, it's good news. Even better news, following your reasoning above and common sense, would be if AmigaOS users could directly benefit from larger sales, more competition and unrestricted vendor options. Extending this reasoning further, AmigaOS would benefit from being sold to a wider hardware base, instead of not running on it at all or as pirated copies.

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I do wish you'd think things through before kneejerking out this sort of emotive nonsense.


Please point out the emotive nonsense in the above news item, so we can let Mai know the truth about their products...
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......
 

Offline DaveP

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2002, 09:53:35 PM »
There is a good reason why it cannot run on the A1G3
at the moment.

Its totally amusing actually I wish I could say more.

Sure, if they are hardware identical maybe it will run on
TeronCX and A1G3 eventually after X,Y, and Z happens.

;-)

What is the freakin big deal tho?
Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2002, 10:08:53 PM »
DaveP wrote:

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Never happen, like a bad lobbyist he uses any vague link to promote his anti-Amiga Inc stance on PPC hardware. Fails to realise that the audience is bored.


"He"? Hey! Dave! I'm right here! ;)

Now, what in an announcement about the very same PPC hardware that many people here are waiting for is "boring the audience"? Should amiga.org remove the PPC and the Hardware categories, and replace them with an "Eyetech's AmigaOne" category?

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With this item and the crowing about MorphOS running on the AmigaONE ( no it isnt ) the childish tactics are back in season. There is *no way* that MorphOS COULD be running on an A1G3SE at the moment.


I have sweet FA to do with what that Bill Buck character says. Don't lump me in with corporate propaganda from either imaginary "side", please. But why would you say something like that about that OS and that hardware? Is there any reason to why this OS would *not* run on hardware like the TeronCX/A1?
I haven't even tried the 0.4 version of MorphOS, but since it obviously is already running on a piece of hardware very similar to the TeronCX, why would this be impossible?

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So what are they (Thendic) trying to say, oh yes that old one that is supposed to put everyone off - that Eyetech are using and adapting an already designed, produced and tested board from Mai called the TeronCX rather than being a custom design with a custom slot for expansions that no third party supports or produces modules for. Yeah, real benefits. Oh no watch me start crying because it isnt made by a German/French cartel that claims to have some intangible sense of Amiganess that everyone else lacks.


I think you're being childish. First, it's Mai and me that's saying that the "production" Teron CX hardware design = A1G3SE, and yes this is good. I'd hate to see some custom made stuff being made our only allowed option. And I haven't seen Thendic or any other company commenting on that, what I have seen is Eyetech claiming that the A1 would be some "special" hardware that they had some part in designing, or even that it's "a new Amiga", which I still don't understand why they would say since it's always been obviously untrue and it'd make their hardware commercially unattractive in any market segment other than the few hardcore sub-petric dwellers who'd buy anything as long as it's got a boingball.
Second, why should you or me give a crap about what hardware people want to buy? It's just hardware. There are no more Amigas, which we can have old-sk00l flamewars over with those evil Atari/whatever users. There's just hardware, a commodity. If someone want's a TeronCX/A1, fine, if someone else wants a Pegasos, fine, if someone else wants an XYZ, fine again. The main thing is that we're all buying and using AmigaOS, not what label someone has slapped on our hardware or from whom we buy our hardware and what software our vendor decides to bundle with it. Right? If you don't like the Pegasos or whatever other than an Eyetech-distributed motherboard, so what? That should be your choice, just as other hardware should be available for others to choose. That's a necessity for a consumer/desktop OS to survive these days.

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Without the certification scheme we would again be wide open for the con schemes from illuminaries such as IWIN, AntiGravity and all the others. Hardly a legacy you want to take forward into the mainstream.


That is plain silly. If a customer feels threatened by that vast dark mass of evil PPC hardware vendors out there (like the infamous con-artists Apple, Mai, Terrasoft, bplan, Total Impact...), he should be able to choose a "certified" or "licensed" vendor. That is in no way an excuse or justification for a compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling scheme.
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......
 

Offline HyperionMP

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2002, 10:10:39 PM »
Seehund, one thing you consistently fail to recognise is the fact that MAI would not have been able to market these boards at this price if Eyetech would not have approached them with the AmigaOne project.

It was Eyetech that insisted on revising the specs of the board (Southbridge etc.) and who guaranteed a minimal production run.

It's Hyperion who are currently in colloboration with others doing the firmware for these boards.

I think you simply don't understand that there is now a partnership in place between Mai and Eyetech with respect to marketing these boards to different markets.
 

Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2002, 10:53:49 PM »
HyperionMP wrote:

Quote
MAI would not have been able to market these boards at this price if Eyetech would not have approached them with the AmigaOne project.


Come on! That's nonsense. What, have you fallen for Eyetech's "$3900 myth" too? ;) Even the old "evaluation" boards were available for sale to the general public at "less than $300" if you were prepared to mount a separately delivered CPU of your choice yourself and didn't need the costly full developer support package.

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It was Eyetech that insisted on revising the specs of the board (Southbridge etc.) and who guaranteed a minimal production run.


Nonsense again. Eyetech may have insisted whatever they liked, it would have no bearing on Mai's decision on what to do with their own hardware design, which they already had done at the time. It's the same thing as with the "AmigaOne XE", no mobo without a permanently soldered-down CPU was to be offered to us stupid AmigaOS users by Eyetech until they learned of the Teron PX. The embarrassing marketing on Eyetech's A1 pages even speaks of how "their engineers" "borrowed the latest cpu socket technology from Apple in the form of the purpose-designed ‘Megarray’ socket."
Also, when you have a ready PCB layout and have even already produced this at a fab, there's no need for a "minimal production run". Welcome to the JIT production of the 21st century (or even the late 20th...). If there would be any "minimal production run", it would be done thanks to the Linux and hw/sw developer markets.

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It's Hyperion who are currently in colloboration with others doing the firmware for these boards.


Yes? That is not hardware design or hardware production.

Quote
I think you simply don't understand that there is now a partnership in place between Mai and Eyetech with respect to marketing these boards to different markets.


Uh, yes?? Eyetech will be one of Mai's hardware distributors, are you saying that there's ANYONE who doesn't understand that yet? Doesn't this very news item say so?


The point is still that there are totally viable hardware options, and even the exact same hardware as the "licensed" one out there, but AmigaOS users will not be allowed to buy it, and we won't even be allowed to buy AmigaOS separate from "licensed" hardware.


Now isn't there an OS to produce and try to get to run on as much hardware as possible and sell as much as possible, instead of backing up the business practices of one specific hardware distributor in online forums? I'd like to buy that OS. :)
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......
 

Offline HyperionMP

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2002, 11:05:46 PM »
Whatever you say Seehund.

Your comments are completely off the mark.

Hyperion is in constant contact with MAI's top-brass  as developers of the Teron CX/AmigaOne Bios.

Don't you think we have a better insight into the situation than you?

II'll reiterate it again: MAI had no intention of mass-marketing these boards prior to the Eyetech deal.

MAI produces Northbridges for use with PPC, MIPS and x86 CPU's intended for embedded systems.

The boards they had designed and  built were intended as evaluation boards to further this business, nothing more.
 

Offline HyperionMP

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2002, 11:09:08 PM »
Also, when you have a ready PCB layout and have even already produced this at a fab, there's no need for a "minimal production run". Welcome to the JIT production of the 21st century (or even the late 20th...). If there would be any "minimal production run", it would be done thanks to the Linux and hw/sw developer markets.

Ever heard of the need to source parts in quantity to keep costs down?

What you are proposing is economic nonsense.

And please don't start with the Linux PPC nonsense. Fact of the matter is that Linux PPC is marginal compared to Linux x86 and underdeveloped in quite a few areas.
 

Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2002, 12:28:20 AM »
Ben, you ignore my point, even if someone else than Mai had anything whatsoever to do with Mai's product development, what would that matter? What matters is that there is not only valid alternative designs to the "licensed" hardware option, there's even an identical option. This is of course not very surprising, what's mind-boggling is that we AmigaOS users will still only be allowed to buy specifically selected hardware from (a) specially selected redistributor(s).
(Not that the plural "s" will ever become reality, but to satisfy the nitpickers...)

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Hyperion is in constant contact with MAI's top-brass as developers of the Teron CX/AmigaOne Bios.


So you said, and that is still not hardware design or hardware production, and it has no bearing on that either.

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Don't you think we have a better insight into the situation than you?


Actually, no, and I'm certainly not saying that I would have any special insight into Mai's product strategies and development.

Saying "hi Jason, hi Vasudha, we've modified a GPLed firmware for your product, wanna have it?" doesn't mean that the already produced and available product Eyetech is buying will become... umm... produced and available just because of that.

The very person who designed the hardware and who demonstrated it running YDL at LW does not yet know what firmware will be shipped pre-installed by default. Who cares? Switching firmware is usually a matter of two minutes of grinding from the floppy drive.

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II'll reiterate it again: MAI had no intention of mass-marketing these boards prior to the Eyetech deal.


If the numbers Eyetech can be expected to distribute can be described as "mass-marketing", I'd say Mai already had some serious mass-marketing going on, both by themselves and that Inguard distributor.

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Ever heard of the need to source parts in quantity to keep costs down?


Sure, but you were talking about "minimal production runs". It's not as if these puppies are suddenly mass produced and CHEAP, or use brand new hard-to-get components like the latest G4s, or custom components other than their own Articias, is it? Reaching a "minimal production run" order level is just not necessary to have the fab you hired push the Start button on their assembly line with already purchased components and a ready PCB design.

But as I said, Sure. Sure there is always a price difference between many and few. And sure, AmigaOS needs to run on exactly the same hardware from exactly the same distributors as the "rest of the world" uses for this effect to benefit AmigaOS users and the commercial attractiveness of AmigaOS to the largest extent - like it i for ANY OS.

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And please don't start with the Linux PPC nonsense. Fact of the matter is that Linux PPC is marginal compared to Linux x86 and underdeveloped in quite a few areas.


What are you on about now? Why are you comparing Linux PPC with Linux x86 now? Linux x86 doesn't run on a Teron CX. AmigaOS will run on a Teron CX and Linux PPC runs on a Teron CX, compare the current market size of Linux (and every other desktop PPC OS) with the current market size of AmigaOS4. Which pulls the most weight in PPC hardware development, AmigaOS or every other OS? AmigaOS simply cannot afford to differentiate itself from an already small hardware market, and most certainly not by silly artificial means for no valid technical reason whatsoever.
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Offline anarchic_teapot

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2002, 12:31:23 AM »
A small selection out of a huge wodge of bovine excrement...
Seehund wibbled:
Quote
WTF? Eyetech has nothing to do with any hardware development of neither this board nor the "evaluation" version (the "A1 developer version"). What Mai's customers, like Eyetech, do with software like the firmware has nothing to do with hardware design or Mai's marketing of their own products. Bill Mueller is the sole developer of the Teron CX / A1, and he is one of the two developers at Mai who do all motherboard designs and signal integrity development. He does not "know what or who we do our contracts with".

READ MY LIPS: FIRMWARE IS NOT HARDWARE. Why should a hardware specialist get mixed up with what firmware/OS is run on it? Why do you suddenly try to evade the issue? You assumed Amiga ROM and OF were the same thing once again.
Incidentally, you don't know (nor do I, and nor, I suspect does Mr Mueller) if the Teron mobo set to go on sale in a couple of months  isn't simply the AmigaOne.
 
You don't know what work has been done by the A1 developers over the past few months. Nor, clearly, does Bill Mueller, but he has the honesty to say "I don't know".

Sorry everybody. I forgot for a moment that Seehund never faces up to reality and admits he got things wrong, but will twist and turn, usually accusing the person who corrects him of making the mistake.
AT
 

Offline Orgin

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2002, 12:39:09 AM »
And old LP running the same track over and over and over comes into mind.

Boring? Very.

/Björn
Mooh?
 

Offline anarchic_teapot

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2002, 12:39:38 AM »
Kronos wrote:
Quote
Learn to read  

Ah yes. Sorry. Low blood-caffeine level.

Quote
And yes Thendic asked for 50% from dealers but not endusers,

I knew I remembered seeing something like that. However, technically there are no endusers for the Pegasos/MOS combo, only betatesters.

Let's face it, it's just frustrating not having the 2 mobos on the open market complete with OS.
AT
 

Offline HyperionMP

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2002, 12:45:15 AM »
Saying "hi Jason, hi Vasudha, we've modified a GPLed firmware for your product, wanna have it?" doesn't mean that the already produced and available product Eyetech is buying will become... umm... produced and available just because of that.doesn't mean that the already produced and available product Eyetech is buying will become... umm... produced and available just because of that.

BH: Sorry Seehund but that comment just disqualified you as somebody you can have a reasonable discussion with.

If you really think that a company like MAI conducts business in this way, that's the end of the debate for me.

"hi Jason, hi Vasudha, we've modified a GPLed firmware for your product, wanna have it?"

Give me a break ...
 

Offline anarchic_teapot

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2002, 12:47:25 AM »
Couldn't resist this: talking nonsense verifiable by anyone who can click an URL...

Seehund wibbled:
Quote
What, have you fallen for Eyetech's "$3900 myth" too? ;) Even the old "evaluation" boards were available for sale to the general public at "less than $300"

pricing for Teron CX
Careful readers will note that it is not specifically stated that the CPU chip is included in the price. :-D
AT
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2002, 12:51:13 AM »
@teapot

Evaluation-system (with support) : 3900 (1st) 2340 (2nd - 5th).

TeronCX-MK1 (not available anymore) ~300 (without CPU)

TeronCX-MK2(A1) ~500 (including CPU).

Simple isn't it ?  :-D
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2002, 01:17:25 AM »
Quote
A small selection out of a huge wodge of bovine excrement...


I love you too. :)

Quote
READ MY LIPS: FIRMWARE IS NOT HARDWARE.


Umm, read my post, I have never said anything like that. What you quoted was my reply to this:

Quote

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure it's the debugging etc work on the A1 which now enables MAI to market their board in this way.


Apparently you meant "the work on the A1 firmware"? I interpreted it as "work on the A1", partially because that's what the text says, and partially because firmware design/debugging has not much to do with Mai's hardware design or whatever firmware options their distributors will be loading on it.

Quote
Incidentally, you don't know (nor do I, and nor, I suspect does Mr Mueller) if the Teron mobo set to go on sale in a couple of months isn't simply the AmigaOne.


It is the "AmigaOne", well it is when Eyetech has relabelled it and put their "Amiga ROM" :-D  in it.

Quote
You don't know what work has been done by the A1 developers over the past few months.


You added Teron CX specific code to PPCBoot and made another bunch of Linux distros run on the board? No? Then what did you do that has anything to do with this thread: More hardware and vendor options out of reach for AmigaOS users?

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Sorry everybody.


No need to apologise, I know a "*plonk*" is easily forgotten. ;) Your concern for what everybody should read and think of what they read is surely appreciated. :)
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Offline SeehundTopic starter

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Re: Teron CX "consumer version" soon for sale
« Reply #29 from previous page: September 05, 2002, 01:24:39 AM »
Quote
Couldn't resist this: talking nonsense verifiable by anyone who can click an URL...


Or send an e-mail:

Quote

From: "Marketing Department"
To: "Emanuel Mair"
Subject: Re: Pricing
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:18:45 -0800

Thanks for your interest in Mai Logic products. The Teron CX evaluation
board is priced at US $3,900 ( technical suppport is also included in the
price). However, we also sell commercial Teron CX boards that include bare
board without CPU and SDRAM for less than US $300.
We will provide the CPU
of  your choice at the current market price seperately.



That was HALF A YEAR AGO, and I thought most people here had seen it, but, as I said, I see the "$3900 myth" lives on.
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......