Hyperion: "Halloween special double-treat for the Classic AmigaOS"

[QuikSanz]

I'm hoping for the following

KickStart 3.10
All the latest modules and bug fixes for all known issues which supersedes OS 3.9 rom updates
Full support for disks up to 128GB
Supports all hardware
1 MB Rom(yes i know this causes issues for A4000\A3000)
Support for re flash-able roms

WorkBench 3.2
all Bug fixes in 3.1
Support for KickStart 3.10

WorkBench 3.10
All Bug fixes known for 3.9
merge all boing bags

Common
Fix HDTOOLS

There is at least a 1meg flash rom available. Can all we need squeeze into 1Meg?. Would be nice to have an image of it.

[XDelusion]

Purchased (for no reason in particular), thank you!

[guest11527]

At least we got two companies developing the OS for Amigas.
Would this state of affairs fragmentate (yet again) the Amiga scene?

Things are weird. I'm not exactly clear how Cloanto operates, and how their process for ROM generation works. I have the impression - but I might be wrong - that they are just collecting a couple of third-party extensions, without integrating them into the overall software repository, and just build ROMs by placing modules "near to each other".

This is kind of how Os 3.9 development worked. External "hackers" (including me) contributing updated sources to the Os, as independent contributers. Unfortunately, the "big picture" gets lost this way. As did some souces. )-:

Frankly, it's not exactly how I believe it should work. The current model for this ROM is just a much saner one: One central repository, a common build-process, and an experienced AmigaOs developer keeping control on the "global picture" (Olsen).

I've learned a lot on software development since 3.9 happened, more on the management and deployment side than the actual hacking, and my firm believe is that the second model Olsen is currently trying to implement is the better one.

That this turns out to be a "Hyperion vs. Cloanto" fight is just sad. It would make much more sense to keep development under a common umbrella.

[Cosmos]

Things are weird. I'm not exactly clear how Cloanto operates, and how their process for ROM generation works. I have the impression - but I might be wrong - that they are just collecting a couple of third-party extensions, without integrating them into the overall software repository, and just build ROMs by placing modules "near to each other".

This is kind of how Os 3.9 development worked. External "hackers" (including me) contributing updated sources to the Os, as independent contributers. Unfortunately, the "big picture" gets lost this way. As did some souces. )-:

Frankly, it's not exactly how I believe it should work. The current model for this ROM is just a much saner one: One central repository, a common build-process, and an experienced AmigaOs developer keeping control on the "global picture" (Olsen).

I've learned a lot on software development since 3.9 happened, more on the management and deployment side than the actual hacking, and my firm believe is that the second model Olsen is currently trying to implement is the better one.

That this turns out to be a "Hyperion vs. Cloanto" fight is just sad. It would make much more sense to keep development under a common umbrella.

In the past, you were ALWAYS against romabiliy... And now you want to work on the Kickstart ?

You change your mind because now you smell money (V2, new P5 boards...) with Kick ?

You are a clown...

I'm very curious to know how much money Microsoft (or other...) give you to destroy the Amiga by the inside using division and different directions between us...

edit by eliyahu: OK, i've had enough of your insults, conspiracy theories, and accusations. if you can't abide by the rules of this site, leave. you have a ten-day vacation to consider. enjoy.

[kolla]

@Cosmos
Sheesh, that is so lame, stop the lunatic conspiracy nonsense. No-one outside the community cares one bit about Amiga, let alone destroying it from the inside. It is just us and there is no money in this.

[Gulliver]

I agree that hacking and patching are not tidy or desirable solutions for long term development, they are just a quick fix, nothing more.

Hopefully kickstart development can catch up with what 3.9 offered and grow from there. Because right now it is a little poor in that area, so we are still better of with the hacks&patches from 3.9 and third parties, which is not the ideal solution.

I also wonder why didnt Olsen integrate his Roadshow TCP stack with this release, as it could have made the update much more interesting, and I guess many people could have happily agreed to even pay a bit more for the workbench disks if it was included/added to them. After all, Roadshow is also the TCP stack of OS4, so I guess negotiations with Hyperion would have been pretty easy to acomplish since they have been already done for the OS4 version.

Furthermore, there is a lot of 68k material from Hyperion that could have been included to enrich this release, at no cost of development at all. It was just a matter of collecting it from OS4 releases and prereleases.

[wawrzon]

Furthermore, there is a lot of 68k material from Hyperion that could have been included to enrich this release

the thing is that it would probably be much more work porting anything os4 to amiga, than simply fixing some known memory leaks in scsi.device. os4 seems to have whole different philosophy in different areas like library interface. note how much hassle its been to make chris os4 netsurf version to work on amiga half a way.

also, what would that material be, that amiga might require from hyperion. i cant think of awful lot.

and also considering the cost, like memory consumption, question is, is it worth it?

[nicholas]

the thing is that it would probably be much more work porting anything os4 to amiga, than simply fixing some known memory leaks in scsi.device. os4 seems to have whole different philosophy in different areas like library interface. note how much hassle its been to make chris os4 netsurf version to work on amiga half a way.

also, what would that material be, that amiga might require from hyperion. i cant think of awful lot.

and also considering the cost, like memory consumption, question is, is it worth it?

I'd like to see the whole of OS4.1 back ported to 68k. Obviously it'd be slow as hell on even an 060 but emulators won't have that problem.

[nicholas]

Things are weird. I'm not exactly clear how Cloanto operates, and how their process for ROM generation works. I have the impression - but I might be wrong - that they are just collecting a couple of third-party extensions, without integrating them into the overall software repository, and just build ROMs by placing modules "near to each other".

This is kind of how Os 3.9 development worked. External "hackers" (including me) contributing updated sources to the Os, as independent contributers. Unfortunately, the "big picture" gets lost this way. As did some souces. )-:

Frankly, it's not exactly how I believe it should work. The current model for this ROM is just a much saner one: One central repository, a common build-process, and an experienced AmigaOs developer keeping control on the "global picture" (Olsen).

I've learned a lot on software development since 3.9 happened, more on the management and deployment side than the actual hacking, and my firm believe is that the second model Olsen is currently trying to implement is the better one.

That this turns out to be a "Hyperion vs. Cloanto" fight is just sad. It would make much more sense to keep development under a common umbrella.

Hyperion have ”earned” a lot of suspicion compared to Cloanto. I can't see them selling more product than Cloanto do to the likes of your average EAB or A1K poster tbh.

[kamelito]

I'd like to see the whole of OS4.1 back ported to 68k. Obviously it'd be slow as hell on even an 060 but emulators won't have that problem.

Emulators are already running AmigaOS 4.1, but I agree 68k with FPGA will be faster over time so a backport could be possible, desirable even. They will probably made more money than on NG I guess.
Kamelito

[kolla]

Gulliver was talking about 68k components already existing in OS4, that one can find especially a lot of on the 4.0 for classic release.

[olsen]

I agree that hacking and patching are not tidy or desirable solutions for long term development, they are just a quick fix, nothing more.

Hopefully kickstart development can catch up with what 3.9 offered and grow from there. Because right now it is a little poor in that area, so we are still better of with the hacks&patches from 3.9 and third parties, which is not the ideal solution.

For the moment, the 3.1 operating system is in "consolidation & cleanup" mode. The baseline which future work should build upon is arguably in not that much better shape than it was in 1994. Some bugs have been fixed, but in order to reduce the risk of breaking anything at all, the changes made so far have been very modest.

Changes that were made for the AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 updates should be possible, but even these would need reviewing again: they are barely 5-6 years "younger" than the original 3.1 release.

I also wonder why didnt Olsen integrate his Roadshow TCP stack with this release, as it could have made the update much more interesting, and I guess many people could have happily agreed to even pay a bit more for the workbench disks if it was included/added to them. After all, Roadshow is also the TCP stack of OS4, so I guess negotiations with Hyperion would have been pretty easy to acomplish since they have been already done for the OS4 version.

Considering that I had a really hard time making the updates to Roadshow 1.11 which I had planned (most of the interesting stuff didn't happen), then lost a lot of time testing the results because my only 68000 machine had failed, I expect that integrating Roadshow into Workbench would have delayed everything into 2017.

That's one reason why there is no Roadshow in this Workbench update.

The biggest reason is that this Workbench update sticks very close to the original 3.1 release in order to make sure that it actually worked well enough without having to spend the same amount of QA work as Commodore and Village Tronic did in their time. The fewer changes, the lower the risk to ship an update that breaks in subtle and/or baffling ways.

That said, this update did suffer from subtle problems: the installation script has a problem with copying the contents of the "Fonts" disk, and the Workbench disk should have been bootable. Both issues are fixable, and a fix should be available shortly.

Furthermore, there is a lot of 68k material from Hyperion that could have been included to enrich this release, at no cost of development at all. It was just a matter of collecting it from OS4 releases and prereleases.

You are onto something... Still, the deliberately limited scope of this update took priority.

[nicholas]

Emulators are already running AmigaOS 4.1, but I agree 68k with FPGA will be faster over time so a backport could be possible, desirable even. They will probably made more money than on NG I guess.
Kamelito

I'd just like to have it running on Amithlon.

[Gulliver]

@olsen

Thank you, I now understand the desitions that went into this release. They sound reasonable considering longer term goals.

BTW, I am glad that you are planing on addressing current release bugs and thinking on a viable future.
All this sounds like comitment to me, which gives me confidence and hope. And of course, more importantly, makes me a willing customer

[lionstorm]

Q: if there will be future updates will they be free for people purchasing the ROM now ?

[guest11527]

In the past, you were ALWAYS against romabiliy... And now you want to work on the Kickstart ?

No, I want to work on the *operating system*. Note the difference. The build process creates ROM modules along with the ROM, if you want to. The modules you can then load with LoadModule - same as ever. The most likely outcome of this process is anyhow that the updated modules will likely not fit into the ROM space, so something has to go there.  

Traditionally, this has been the workbench.library, though I believe mathieeesing should also better be RAM-based as its proper setup requires the processor libraries anyhow, and the audio.device is another prime candidate to be moved out of ROM since it is really not needed for bootstrap.

One way or another, this is not a decision I will make, and the primary and next goal is to integrate the fixes I have and then see how to move forward from there.

You change your mind because now you smell money (V2, new P5 boards...) with Kick ?

Are you serious? There is no money in Amiga, and that's not why I'm doing this in first place. Remember, I already have a job. Or rather, something close to two jobs. I don't have a contract with Hyperion, and I don't get any money for this. I'm neither expecting anything here.  

I'm very curious to know how much money Microsoft (or other...) give you to destroy the Amiga by the inside using division and different directions between us...

Whoha! If Microsoft research would offer me a position, I would take it... They are doing pretty cool stuff over there.  

But seriously: No, I don't get money from Microsoft, and I pretty much doubt that they see in AmigaOs any sort of threat for their business. If they are even aware of our little toy operating system in first place.